Talk:Marco Polo/Archive 1

introductor of lots of things in Italy
Marco Polo is reputedly the introductor of lots things in italy. From memory, ice cream, spaghetti,... Probably, some of these are just trials to give a prestigious history to anonymous events, but could someboy include a more complete list (bracketed between "reputedly", "tradition", "legend"). -- alagonkey 01:47 24 Jul 2003 (UTC)

ice cream are from persia(iran)

Croatian
What does it matter how Marco Polo is spelled in Croatian?Renke


 * Supposedly he is Croatian... Adam Bishop 18:44, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Actually it was Dalmatia. And Dalmatia then was Venetian. So much for public education in Croatia! it's as bad as ours in the U.S.! Wetman 21:44, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

That is the stupidest comment made on this page yet...and to show for it- you're an american. Go to the island of Brac where you can take the Marco Polo tour- visit the house he was born in. It wasn't just DALMATIA it was also part of the ISTIRAN region as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.210.245.24 (talk) 04:33, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually you're just reading some overzealous blather from a user who isn't even from Croatia, the IP was from an American ISP. :) Once we remove silly misinterpretations, there is reason to believe that the family came from Curzola, and that they weren't Italic but Slavic. --Shallot 21:56, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * This tradition is dubious, there are documents signed by Polo family in Venice since 971). By the way Curzola inhabitants were not at all Slavs, in XI century they requested help from Venice against Slav incursion. --80.180.172.153


 * That's definitely not a reason to censor it all. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93;   10:49, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * It's not censorship, just a correction.


 * Uh-huh. And the tidbit above is supposed to be the rationale? Is there actually proof that those were all the same Polos? It can really go either way and we'll probably never know, AFAIR, so it is blatant censorship to remove all references to the issue. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93;


 * Why did you re-add "Mate" and "Nikola"? Do you want to add "Mathieu" and "Nicolas", or "Matthew" and "Nicholas" too?


 * I just reverted the whole bad-faith edit. Those names can go if there are no historical records mentioning those versions. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93;


 * Reverted "from Jorge Stolfi 13:38, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Euganeo 05:06, 5 April 2006 (UTC) What follows (in reference to discussions on Marco Polo being from Korcula) is historically incorrect, has no academic integrity and is pseudohistorical. Citing the fact that there are migrants in Argentina who declare they are Croatian and with the surname de Poli, is neither here nor there and in-fact diminishes the accuracy and scholarly discussion that Wikipedia should be all about. Read it with a grain (or kilogram) of salt. Euganeo 05:06, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The "Polo" surname
By Euganeo 05:06, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Origin of the Polo surname and its variants

Polo is most definitely an Italian surname which dates back centuries before the birth of Marco Polo. What follows is an historical and statistical look at the surname (it's origins and the spread of the surname today). Indeed it is possible that the surname is present in Croatia, this is not disputed. Nor is it disputed that the surname is present and historically attested to in Corsica (France), Spain and throughout the Italian diaspora. Please read and follow the links and do some of your own research, I have put a lot of effort into ensuring that what is written here is properly referenced and sourced accordingly. I have made use of mainly online services by reputable geneological websites for your convenience. I have endeavoured to ensure that nothing put forward here is mere heresay but can be actually reinforced by attestable fact.

According to the "Origin of Italian Surnames" geneological research site, copyrighted Ettore Rossoni © 2000 "Origine dei Cognomi" (see: http://www.melegnano.net/cognomi/cognomi0014o.htm) and researched by E. Rossoni and Roberto Smacchia; the Polo and Poli surnames are extremely diffuse in Northern Italy. The surname Polo is prevalent in the Veneto region and a secondary pocket of communities in the Salentine peninsula (southern most tip of the Puglia region, nearest Greece) as well as the north-western portion of the island of Sardegna. The surnames are derivatives of the Latin cognomen Paullus or directly from the Latin cognomen Polus. They cite it's most famous family member as being Marco Polo. In various parts of Italy the communities with this surname may have derived them from various toponyms associated with Polo, such as San Polo (PC) - (PR), San Polo dei Cavalieri (RM), San Polo di Piave (TV), San Polo in Chianti (FI), San Polo Matese (CB), etc.

According to most geneological sources, the surname Polo came from the personal name Paolo (English: Paul) which was an Italian version of the Latin Paullus and Polus (see more on this at the end, including the Hall of Names by Swyrich scroll). Look at the Wikipedia article for Paul which cites its origin as "derived from the Roman surname Paulus (Latin: "small" or "humble")".

According to the Dictionary of American Family Names, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0-19-508137-4, the surname Polo is of Italian and Spanish origin, with the Spanish surname as being "possibly of the same derivation as" that of the Italian: which is "from the personal name Polo, a variant of Paolo (see Paul)." According to the Ancestry.com it's population distribution was derived from the 1920 U.S. Federal Census which found 103,832 matches for Polo in their records:

86,630 matches in Historical Newspapers 15,463 matches in U.S. Records Collection 212 matches in U.S. Immigration Collection 1,527 matches in U.S. Census Images and Indexes

(See: http://www.ancestry.com/search/SurnamePage.aspx?html=b&ln=Polo&sourcecode=13304).

As for the De Polo surname, the Dictionary of American Family Names provides the origin of the surname as "Italian: patronymic from the personal name Polo, a northern variant of Paolo (see Paul)." There were 405 matches for De Polo found in the 1920 U.S. Federal Census records.

Studying the results of the Gens Laboratory (Italia) and its search engine (linked to current telephone directory lists in Italy, see: http://gens.labo.net/) and their studies on the origins and distributions of surnames, the results are quite interesting. In Italy the surname Polo is very prevalent, numbering well into the thousands. In-fact, in the Veneto region alone (the region whose capital is Venice, from where Marco Polo's family originates) includes one of the highest concentrations of the Polo surname and is present in over 424 communities throughout Italy, the majority of which are in the Veneto. In the Veneto region, the Polo family numbers well over one thousand, over a hundred of which actually live in Venice. The slight variant of de Polo is also common and present in 68 communities across Italy, around 95% of which is concentrated in the Veneto region.

Other regions with unusually high instances of communities and large families in the hundreds with the surname Polo exist in the southern most tip of Puglia (as indicated by Ettore Rossoni's research) around 300; in the north-western and south-eastern tips of Sardegna, approximately 325; and in Lombardia, particularly around it's capital city of Milano, where there is the highest number outside the Veneto, around 485. In Friuli-Venezia Giulia there are approximately 305. Every single other region in Italy has a presence of a number of Polo families that number no greater than several hundred, with notable groupings in Lazio (150), Liguria (145) and Piemonte (240), where the surname historically originates from after the 11th century. About 335 others are scattered across the rest of Italy. The de Polo family on the otherhand, is present mostly in the Veneto region, with a concentration that numbers around several hundred.

The variant of Poli is much larger than Polo by far. This surname, which has the same origins as Polo, numbers well into the tens of thousands and is heavily concentrated in the northern Italian regions of the Veneto, Lombardia, Emilia-Romagna, Umbria, Toscana, Piemonte and Lazio (particularly in Rome). Poli is prominent in every single other region in Italy, each region having an average of several hundred to a thousand.

De Poli and de Polo share much the same geographical information, dispersion and numbers.

In Corsica a derivation of the personal name Paolo includes Paoli and it is a very common name on the island. In-fact Pasquale Paoli was one of Corsica's most famous patriots. This does not mean that Marco Polo is Corsican. This surname on the island originates with the Tuscan settlers on Corsica whose influence there is such that much of the Corsican language relies on medieval Tuscan rural dialect and outweighs the Genovese influence (Genova ruled Corsica for extensive periods of time). The surname of Paoli is so prevalent in Toscana that it numbers well over ten thousand in that region alone, with at least 500 in Rome and about the same scattered over the entire country. The variant Paolo is not as common but still numbers in the hundreds of thousands across Italy, the largest groupings around Napoli in Campania.

The description below is adapted from the House of Names geneological research work and is also listed in the Hall of Names by Swyrich scroll, see an example at: http://search.swyrich.com/sample_scroll.html

"... Origin: Italian

The distinguished surname Polo can be traced back to the ancient and beautiful region of Piedmont. Although people were originally known only by a single name, it became necessary for people to adopt a second name to identify themselves as populations grew and travel became more frequent. The process of adopting mixed hereditary surnames was not complete until the modern era, but the use of hereditary family names in Italy began in the 10th and 11th centuries. Italian hereditary surnames were developed according to fairly general principles and they were characterised by a profusion of derivatives coined from given names. The most common type of family name found in the region of Piedmont is the patronymic surname, which is derived from the father's given name. During the Middle Ages, Italians adopted the patronymic system of name-making because it perfectly complemented the prevailing feudal system. In Italy the popularity of patronymic type of surname is also due to the fact that during the Christian era, people often named their children after saints and biblical figures. The surname Polo came from the personal name Paolo (English: Paul)..." hi

Indeed, Polo is very much an Italian surname and has been for a good one thousand years and more. Euganeo 05:06, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

-

-  Hello Evergreen, Next time when posting a reply, please insert four of these ~ on your post so that you sign correctly. Thank you for your response, however it seems that judging by everything you have written you have completely ingnored all the information I have provided. It is pointless to keep repeating what I have already stated. Firstly, I do not presume that all "Venetians" during the time of the Venetian Republic were ethnic Italians. I have already stated above that I am very aware of the fact that many "Venetian" citizens were actually Greek, Dalmatian, Christian Albanian and so on. In fact, if you actually read anything I have written you will notice that I gave an example of the Calergi family from Crete, whose original name was "Kalergis" in Greek. They Italianised their surnames and were Venetian citizens. Please read all my statements clearly next time. Here is what I write above, you obviously did not read it clearly: ''As a matter of fact I am from the Veneto and I know about the history of my region very well. In fact, as stated in many of my other posts I am an academic in various fields, one of which is Medieval studies with a focus on the Venetian Republic. I am also aware of the fact that numerous Cretan nobels in "Venetian" Greece (such as the Kalergis family) had Italianised their surnames (such as Vendramini Calergi, Capodistria and so on). In fact I have been working on the translation and editing of a translated work from ("stradiotto") Venetian text into English on a series of memoirs involving the Calergi (Kalergis) family on Crete.'' I appreciate your "I love Italian people" statement, which is neither here nor there. This is not an "ethnic" debate or a "racial" argument of any sort, it is a point of academic integrity. Integrity which is denigrated each time people attempt to expound theories which are pseudohistorical or not accepted by the mainstream academia. Columbus (Colombo)? Is generally accepted to be Italian. He himself claimed to be born in the Republic of Genova. Which could be Genoa itself or any of its colonies. There is credence in on possible hypothesis that he was infact of Greek extraction. But that is another debate. (By the way, Christopher Columbus' mother was Susanna Fontanarossa, as Italian as they come). As for Napoleon. It is absurd to refer to Napoleon as an Italian or Frenchman. He is a Corsican, descended from Italian nobility. This is clearly attested to and easily discovered when reading anything on the man that was Nabolione Buonaparte (Napoleon Bonaparte. Of course, the problems arise when attempting to trace his family's ethnic descent, are they completely Italian or partially "ethnic" Corsican etc... Particularly when taking into consideration that a great deal of Corsicans are descended from Tuscany or Genoa (Italy).  As for the links you provided. I think you will find that these are extremely nationalistic Croatian sites. They are written completely in Serbo-Croatian. They are poorly constructed, very rudimentary, have no academic integrity whatsoever and are completely driven towards one common argument and have all the hallmarks of a website empowered by a centre-right, politically charged agenda.   '''For someone complaining about poor construction and academic integrity, you are pretty much ignorant of the fact that Serbo-Croatian language does not exist. There are two languages, one called Serbian, the other Croatian.''' Luka505 16:56, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

One of the links also claims the following: The Croatian Census of Population for 1948 lists DEPOLO on the Island of Korcula with 40 individuals in 15 families... This is ridiculous in light of the figures I have provided above. Where tens of thousands (when including all the surname variations of Polo, it increases into hundreds of thousands) of Italians in Italy have this surname according to the current census. Therefore, using the same logic as the websites you provided, I could very easily estimate that the chances of Marco Polo being ethnically Croatian stands at approximately 300,000 to 1 (in favour of Italian origin). But I would not lower myself to such petty conclusions. I find it deplorable that these sorts of pseudohistorical websites are being used as a source of information on academic matters. The problem is further compounded when people such as yourself are easily persuaded into believing the rhetoric of a group inclined towards racial-division and the immoral appropriation of cultural figures from other ethnic communities. Please, Evergreen, consider what I have written above. Read all of the details before blindly believing what some Croatians have written. Consider why these Croatians are writing these sorts of theories. The websites for example have no academic qualities whatsoever. In-fact, all of my Croatian colleagues (with the exception of one or two Slovenians in Melbourne) who are against these sort of right-wing pseudohistorical writings by less-informed Croatians. Many of us are trying to help people to understand that they themselves can find out the truth by going to libraries, studying up of their own accord and not just believing all the rubbish published on the internet. If you follow the academic studies on Marco Polo all the way through and check out the most recent articles published in the respected Journals (this is where all the most avant-garde theories are published for the international academic readership), you can find for yourself that there is little merit in believing that Marco Polo was ethnically Croatian. There is a lot of evidence that shows he was born on the island of Korcula, that is fair enough. But that does not qualify as evidence in and of itself that Marco Polo was an ethnic "Croatian" (then the next question arises, where one would essentially need to define what a "Croatian" was at that time and is now in relation to the "Croatians" of that time). As I've stated earlier, the fact that people of a particular surname occur on a very small island (and only a very small number of these people exist on the island), this does not qualify as evidence that all people with these surnames are from that location. There are a very high number of people with the surname Paoli and Paolo (variants of Polo in fact) on the island of Corsica (France). In fact there are more people with the surname Polo or variants of it on Corsica (France) than there are on Korcula (Croatia). But that does not mean that Marco Polo was Corsican. In the end it is your prerogative to believe whatever it is you want to convince yourself of. The conversation is pointless in that most people who subscribe to a right-wing, racist viewpoint are more than likely going to be extremely difficult to have a decent conversation with that has academic integrity. I am not suggesting that you are in any way a right-wing thinker. What I am saying is that you have been easily persuaded by people who have an agenda which is in line with these types. It is saddening to see more and more young Slavs from the Balkans believing the writings of completely unqualified people who expound the most pseudohistorical of theories. In future, take a good look at the those sites you quoted. Then look at the reasons behind why these sites exist and who the people are that operate behind the scenes. These are not true Croatian scholars, they are an embarrasment to every respectable Croatian I have ever met. Euganeo 00:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry to tell you, but: You can't say that "most people agree" because this is not true. There is no consensus and most of the people who agree usually have a strong Croatian national POV. GhePeU 09:19, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * "Marco Polo is said to be born in Korcula (most people agree)"
 * "The island at the time o--Giovanni Giove 14:39, 12 July 2006 (UTC)f his birth was mostly Dalmatian Croatian settled (most ppl agree)."

---
 * Thank you for reinforcing one of my main points, GhePeU. I fear that people such as show themselves for what they are. "Viva Forza Italia" he says... Well, Evergreen, it's absolutely not surprising that you support a centre-right party in coalition with a separatist league.


 * Furthermore, I think that it is pretty obvious to everyone that this discussion with is absolutely pointless. Your arguments and comments are childish and waste everyone's time. You treat the Wikipedia as though it is some sort of internet chat room.


 * As I said before and I reiterate once again: In the end it is your prerogative to believe whatever it is you want to convince yourself of. - Euganeo 23:34, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Attention: Evergreen known for previously vandalising the Marco Polo discussion page
Attention: Please note that the above discussion (under both titles, The "Polo" Surname and To Euganeo) was between myself Euganeo and the anonymous vandal Evergreen (Evergreen Montenegro1). He appears to have a history of vandalising the Marco Polo page and other pages. He has recently completely deleted all the comments that I have made and all the work I have put into carefully discussing this matter in a reasonable academic fashion. Other users have made attempts to reinstate the material that Evergreen has been deleting.

It was an extremely difficult and time consuming effort done by various wiki Admin and users to reinstate the original comments. Evergreen then proceeded to delete only his own messages.

After this (Evergreen Montenegro1)has insisted on baiting me into another argument with his pseudohistorical comments and his insults. Evergreen makes a habit of refusing to sign on with a proper account with Wikipedia and continually hides behind the veil of his IP address (Evergreen Montenegro1). I had attempted to come to some sort of a truce with Evergreen whereby he would leave my comments alone and stop deleting them and he would be free to delete only his own comments. If anyone wants to see the original comments that were made and the strange manner in which Evergreen has been behaving, please look at the History tab above to see a log of all the edits he has made. This is vandalism. You are not meant to delete another User's comments. He had deleted all of my comments in discussion with him. This is unethical and makes it look as though he has something to hide. Why is he trying to cover his tracks and silence me? Please take note of the following links and warnings against him to cease otherwise he will be blocked. Take note also of the history on his IP discussion page (as he has not registered with Wikipedia) at this (Evergreen Montenegro1). He has deleted all the other User's comments on his talk page to hide that he has been warned before. New warnings have been posted by other Users since Evergreen has continued to expound his nationalistic Croatian ideologies on the Wikipedia. Vandals will not be tolerated on Wikipedia. Please inform yourselves by checking out the Wikipedia Blocking Policy.

Furthmore, pseudohistorical and jingoisitic agenda-driven POV postings and arguments are to be kept in the discussion area. But to be devoid of insults and petty bickering. In the past I have attempted to discuss this in a civil manner with Evergreen but this has been to no avail. Please be warned of the activities and subversive agenda behind any interaction you may have with Evergreen. He is essentially a vandal but also a proponent of pseudohistorical theories which he wishes to enforce on others via intimidation. Euganeo 00:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC) --

(Evergreen Montenegro1), you have insisted upon vandalising this page continuously. You have spent numerous amounts of history edits to ensure that your vandalism is perpetuated. I do not care about your POV or your pseudohistorical arguments. Your agenda is well known to everyone that has been trying to stop you vandalising the Wikipedia. Euganeo 03:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * You have accused me of deleting your posts and I never have deleted any of your posts. They have been deleted by other Admin and WikiUsers who are attempted to stop you flooding the discussion board.
 * You posted an essay on the discussion board. It was deleted by someone else. Not me. Look at the history before you make defamatory accusations.
 * You insist I delete the Attention post above. I will only delete it once you stop vandalising the site and leave the Wikipedia alone.
 * You must sign your postings correctly and stop deleting the "unsigned" markers that are put to your posts. These are put there to ensure in all fairness that everyone knows who is posting what without having to search through the Wiki history pages.

) -
 * Thanks, I'll start cleaning up this page as soon as I get a chance. Take care Euganeo 05:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Pseudohistory, just for the amusement sake
http://www.ikorcula.net/marcopolo/Pilic_Polo_Marko.htm

plese read, the view is backed by non Croat sources Evergreen Montenegro1 03:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC) --- POLO-PILIC, MARCO Croatian Adventurer

The Marco Polo Coat of Arms includes four chickens. In Italian, Polo means chicken or fowl; in Croatian Pilich means chicks or chickens. Accident or coincidence? The Arms are registered in Dalmatia.

Henry S. Hart in his book, Venetian Adventurer: Marco Polo, states, "These merchants were Maffeo and Nicolo Polo, sons of one Marco Polo, a descendant of an old Dalmatian Family which had come from Sibenik, Dalmatia, and settled in Venice in the 11th Century." Hart goes on to say, "The crews of the Venetian ships were freemen, so many of them Slavonians (Croatians) from the Dalmatian Coast that the long dock by St. Mark's Square was and is known as the Riva degli Schiavoni (Slavonian-Croatian)." Marko Polo was the greatest explorer of all time. More significant than Columbus, he opened to Europe all of Asia, including China, which in turn prompted the discovery of America. Marco Polo had a home on the Island of Korcula in Dalmatia, then a shipbuilding and merchant center of Dalmatia. The merchant and the noble class in Dalmatia did use two names, one Latin-Italian as citizens of Venice and their own Croatian name in their own circles. Bogdanich became Bogdaneo, Mladinich-Mladineo, Arnerich-Arneri and Glavinich-Capogrosso. Some simply used the Latin-Italian meaning of their name, such as Cvietkovich-Florio, Lupis-Vukasinovich or Polo-Pilich.

Genealogy The most prominent researcher and historian of Marco Polo, Sir Henry Yule, In his book Ser Marco Polo 1903, John Murray, London drew a genealogical chart of the Polo Families on pages 5O6-507. Marco's daughter, Moreta, married Dolfln; daughter, Fantina, married Bragadin. Vinko lvancevic in his article "Stone Carved Coats of Arms on Korcula" in Croatian Academy of Arts and Sciences, No. 381-1978 has the Illustrated Coats of Arms of Dolfin and Bragadin. On the same, the wife of Marino Gradenigo chooses as her executors, "My mother Dona and my uncle (Barba) Ser Marco Polo." Gradenigo Coats of Arms are also carved in stone on Korcula. She also used the term Barba for uncle, this is Dalmatian dialect for uncle. Zio means uncle In Italian. Bragadin is cited on page 125 In History of Medieval Croatia by Guidescu as a Croatian. Marco's genealogy also listed a brother married to a Sagredo-this Sagredo is registered in the Dalmatian nobility and states In German: "Welches aus Sebenico stammt" or originated in Sibenik. It is significant in his genealogy the association with Korcula and Dalmatia. The Croatian Census of Population for 1948 lists DEPOLO (De-of Polo) on the Island of Korcula with 40 individuals in 15 families and the city of Drnis, Dalmatia approximately 20 kilometers from Sibenik (the origins of Polo) has over 25 families with more than 130 individuals named PILICH. Polo is found in only two families far to the north. Courtesy of the Croatian Genealogical and Heraldic Society.

As per discussion on the Usenet groups:

From:	 	Geos - view profile Date:		Tues, Nov 2 2004 4:03 pm Email: 		"Geos"  Groups: 		soc.culture.croatia, it.politica, it.cultura.storia

"Finellach"  ha scritto nel messaggio news:cm8n4b$hsd$1@ls219.htnet.hr...

> Geos wrote: > > Tell me, my friend, is this the "theory", you are talking about? > > http://www.ikorcula.net/marcopolo/Pilic_Polo_Marko.htm > Yes.

''Well, the first think is that chicken in italian is pollo and not "polo". Polo is a Venitian word for "Paul". This simple evidence breaks one of the bases of your theory.''


 * Oh this is just excellent. And the word pilich in Croatian has Turkish origins. Does this make Marco Polo Turkish? Way to go. 213.172.234.88 10:09, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

--Purger 13:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

skeptic side
The skeptic side is somewhat overplayed in this article, IMHO. The simplest explanation for Marco's omissions is that, as he is said to have said, "he just didn't tell even half of what he saw". Also: chopsticks may be a notable feature of Chinese culture for modern restaurant-goers, but for someone like Marco (who, like europeans of the time, ate with his hands) it probably seemed an insignificant detail, especially compared to things like armies and money, and the much stranger things that he did report. Ditto for writing -- to Marco, who apparently was illiterate, Chinese writing would not have seem any different than Greek, Hebrew, or Arabic, which were no news to his Venetian audience. As for Chinese foot-binding, it may not have been a pervasive custom, or (being a strictly private familiar thing) it may have been outside of his sight. Finally, one should note that Marco visited the court of a Mongol ruler 800 years ago, so one shoudl not assume that the customs he met there were the same as those of the Han dinasties 300 years later. (Think how much Europe changed in 300 years). And as for the "careful record keeping": even if we assume that he was as important to the Khan as he claimed, he still was probably one among thousands of courtiers and foreign merchants in Kublai's court. Anyway, c'mon, there are more important things about this subject than "Croatian vs. Venetian" or the skeptics viewpoint...Jorge Stolfi 19:59, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Marco Polo doubting Thomas'
In the article for Marco Polo, I would like to add a topic in response to the section questioning the validity of Marco Polo's story.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo#Did_the_trip_really_take_place.3F)

(quoting from the article)

"While most historians believe that Marco Polo did indeed reach China, in recent times some have proposed that he did not get that far, and only retold information he had heard from others. Those skeptics point out that, among other omissions, his account fails to mention Chinese writing, chopsticks, tea, foot binding, or the Great Wall. Also, Chinese records of the time do not mention him, despite the fact that he claimed to have served as a special emissary for Kublai Khan—which is puzzling, given the careful record-keeping in China at that time."

In response to these arguments I would like to add a topic to link off of this:

[Keep in mind, that Marco Polo arrived to China when it was under Mongol rule (specifically Kublai Khan). What would later become Beijing had just been sacked and destroyed (and was rebuilt as the new Mongol capital of Khanbaliq. This would have been akin to discoverying Japan for the first time right after it was hit with a nuclear bomb in 1945. Must've given off some strange impressions. Then too, Mongol invasion of Europe was imminent, and expeditions of this type would have been valued as much for its intelligence as it was for its material interest. Still, given these circumstances, Marco painted an intriguing picture of medieval China to what was then Dark Age Europe.]

Great Wall of China- although the original Great Wall was started in the Qin dynasty, the bulk of the Great Wall as seen today was created during the Ming Dynasty; long after Marco Polo's journeys there. At the time, the walls may not have been impressive enough to warrant "Great Wonder" status, and may not have been that different from other great barriers constructed throughout the Classical and Ancient world (like Hadrian's wall). Plus, the Great Wall was meant to keep the Mongols out; not something the occupiers (Mongols) would entertain outsiders with [It would be like the Allies turning the Atlantic Sea Wall of WWII into a historical monument. It should be noted that all of the Great Wonders of the Classical World were destroyed except for the Pyramids of Giza whose mere size was its defense. A military fortification at that time, even a major one like the Great Wall, may not have been reason enough to present as a national treasure.]

Tea - because no records state exactly when tea became popular and mainstream throughout China, it is quite possible Marco did not have any in his time there [amazing to think of a time in China when tea was not in every household, but there must have existed a time- why not later]. Also, tea may not have been part of the Mongol's custom, and thus never offered it to Marco Polo. Finally, tea may have still been in its infancy- perhaps just leaves in water; and not have developed its distinct taste that fueled future wars over.

Foot binding- as strange and exotic as this idea may be to westerners now, this may not been a topic that either the Mongols or Marco Polo cared to talk about. It was a practice done to young Chinese girls, and may just have never entered the conversation when Marco met with the Khan leaders. It also may have been seen by Marco and just not noteworthy enough for him to mention.

Chinese writing- it is almost definite that Marco saw Chinese writing in his travels there; although in medieval China, the writing was most probably only for scribes, and business and government documents. Similar to Europe, only the educated needed to read at this time, and most people probably got around fine without it. [There were not signs over every store and restaurant like the modern world, and few newspapers if any]. There is also the complexity of Chinese characters which is surely why Marco did not learn the language.

Chopsticks- of all the items noted that Marco Polo neglected to write on, this is actually the most notable since it definitely existed and was used at the time, and it is noteworthy enough to describe considering how different it is to western utensils. However, it could be that the Mongols did not adopt this practice and used common or similar utensils as westerners; unlike the Chinese.

(quoting from the article)

"On his deathbed, a priest begged Marco to confess that he had lied in his stories. Marco refused, insisting, 'I have not told half of what I saw!'

Although his deathbed remarks may not be true, it is entirely possible Marco did not talk about much of what he saw in his travels. As two different cultures as they could be, maybe he just did not remember to write everything in his book Il Milione. The original, itself, did not survive and may also include lost writings not included in the translations.

Acefox

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Another defense to Marco Polo's journey is that the only arguments that discredit it are what he missed describing: chopsticks, foot binding, writing, etc. There are no arguments whether anything he said was factually wrong. Meaning, that if he did lie and make up the story he was highly accurate in describing it. Given an entire book on it, it seems impossible he could have been accurate about making it all up by coincidence. Perhaps the original source of the criticisms at the time did not entirely trust him because he may have been known to exaggerate stories. His critics may have also been jealous or competitors. In his defense, even if he did exaggerate, the subject was more interesting than his story. --Acefox 20:37, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism
I have just reverted a piece of vandalism on the article. 21:46, 21 October 2005 80.73.209.215
 * Evergreen insists on vandalising this page, please be wary. He has been deleting my postings and those of others where-ever unsigned IP notices have been placed. This is to cover a lengthy history of vandalism he has perpetrated on this dicussion page and others. Check out the discussion section on Evergreen to see previous warnings he has been issued. Checking the history there will also reveal previous warnings by users which he has deleted.

Euganeo 04:57, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Apologies to User:80.73.209.215, a vandal has deleted you post and I have reposted it for you here. The vandal is the one I've mentioned above who will not stop destroying this page. See: Evergreen for details.
 * Euganeo 01:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

-


 * I cannot delete the above discussion under "Vandalism" because it is a valid topic started by another user. As Wiki Admin have pointed out, all comments must stay here and this includes warnings and so on. Take care (and please stop deleting other User's comments) Euganeo 23:07, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Il Milione
Benjamin Colbert states in his introduction to the Wordsworth edition of "The travels.." (ISBN 1-85326-473-3) that "To some, Polo earned the nickname of Il Millione, Marco 'Million', and a reputation for exaggeration, or worse, as a teller of tall tales." This text also mentions nothing about the book having the name Il Milione or that the name derives from Marco's family name. Can someone provide a source for the statement here that "His travels are written down in Il Milione ("The Milione", from Polo's family nickname Emilione, or The Travels of Marco Polo)." Seabhcán 20:08, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

This hypothesis is now accepted by many Italin scholars and was first proposed by L.F. Benedetto.

Bibliography: Benedetto, L.F., "Perché fu chiamato Milione il libro di Marco Polo", in «Il Marzocco», Firenze, 14 Settembre 1930 and "Ancora del nome Milione", in «Il Marzocco», Firenze, 16 novembre 1930, cited in Zorzi, Alvise, "Vita di Marco Polo veneziano", Rusconi Editore, Milano, dicembre 1982. GhePeU 13:50, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

please keep deleted

THANKS

Disambiguator
I was actually searching for the game Marco Polo that's played in swimming pools... shouldn't this topic be split in two?


 * The name Marco Polo was also given to a children's game (Marco Polo). Mark1 7 July 2005 03:58 (UTC)

Improvement drive
Spice trade has been nominated to be improved by This week's improvement drive. Come and support the article with your vote!--Fenice 06:08, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Marco Polo's book
Does a translated version of his book "Descriptions of the world" exist online? no

There's one at http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/10636 Piamero 15:57, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

PBS program reference

 * Feiler, Bruce. "Walking the Bible" - PBS HDTV program, March 25, 2006. Bruce Feiler, author of Walking the Bible (book) (ISBN 0380807319) is shown in a tv program of the same name.  He goes into an internet cafe to research information about Mount Ararat in connection to Noah's Ark.  Video of Wikipedia's entry on Marco Polo is shown while Feiler's voice over explains that Marco Polo visited Mount Ararat in 1254.  The on-screen video of the Wikipedia article is not making that claim however, it is showing that Marco Polo was born in 1254.  The Marco Polo article does not even mention Mount Ararat directly, though it does mention that Marco Polo traveled in the general area of the mountain.

The proof of Dalmatian origin
A 14th century document linking Marco Polo with Dalmatia

A copy of the 14th century British Museum Additional MS 12475 linking Marco Polo with Dalmatia. Line against shield with 4 birds "(P)olo, questi veneron orrigamente de dalmatia". Polo, this man originally came from Dalmatia.

Document is presented to the Marco Polo Centre Korcula - Croatia on Sept. 7th 1998 by James A. Gilman on behalf of Europa-Youth Evergreen Montenegro1 03:28, 31 May 2006 (UTC) DONE


 * I'll merge this post into two (or three) separate discussion topics just for Evergreen Montenegro1 and I as per our private discussions on User_talk:Euganeo. Thanks Evergreen. Euganeo 05:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Italian view
Marco Polo(c. 1254-1324), Italian traveller and author, whose writings gave Europeans the first authoritative view of life in the Far East. Polo was probably born in Venice, although he may have been born in Venetian Dalmatia on the island of Curzola (now Korčula), off the Croatian coast, where his family originated. His father Nicolò and uncle Maffeo were Venetian merchants and business partners who had commercial interests in Constantinople (now İstanbul) and the Crimea. .Read More www.greatitalians.com Please note above is cut and paste from the net, unbias view. Evergreen Evergreen Montenegro 03:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

scepticism
I also feel that sceptical side is overplayed in the article. Few researchers doubt it.

Lack of mention of Marco Polo in Chinese documents suggests that Polo family over-played their role and had no significant position in Khan's court.

In "travels' it is also evident that Polo was usually an outsider to customs of many countries he visited. He likely had little insight into everyday life of Chinese, which may explain no mention of e.g. tea.

He is also very detailed on certain topics and omits others, apparently his personal interests. Decriptions of trade goods and game animals and birds of Asia are accurate and first-class. Jurek

Scapegoat for chinese claimers
When Marco Polo was 35 his dad returned. --Leo 07:28, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

China is the source of many of the world's great inventions, including the Four Great Inventions of ancient China: Paper, the compass, gunpowder, and printing. Other wonderful things first discovered/used/promoted/... by Chinese: and much more!....
 * Abacus
 * Chinese food: Tofu
 * paper money
 * fireworks
 * Kite
 * Porcelain: well, china means porcelain literally.
 * Umbrella
 * Chinese_calendar: The best calendar to guide agriculture activities.
 * Silk: and the historic Silk_road
 * tea: the magic health drink
 * traditional Chinese medicine: one of the major promising complementary and alternative medicines
 * Acupuncture
 * Tai Chi Chuan
 * Seismograph
 * Stirrups
 * rocket and multi-staged rockets
 * Wheelbarrow
 * Cast iron
 * Matches
 * chicken kitties
 * is gunpowder really that great an invention? Papadilos 17:57, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Offcourse it is. Gunpowder greatly changed warfare and made alot of new inventions possible. 80.57.174.103 (talk) 22:18, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

POV
I have been asked by supporter of Curzola theory to see article and give comments. Because nationality is very important about this article I will only say that I live in Croatia and read Italian language.

Reason for writing POV tag in article is that wikipedia must be neutral ! This article is not neutral in birth controversy because there are written arguments for Curzola and Venice theory and criticism of Curzola theory. When in article it will be written criticism of Venice theory then POV tag will not be needed anymore. About other stuff there is all in all 2 questions. Where is Marco Polo born and if he is born in Curzola what has been his nationality. I want only to say that this are 2 separated questions !!

My last comment is about Marco Polo picture. Under picture is written that he is born in Venice but this is disputed. In my thinking it will be more honest, neutral that it is written that Marco Polo is born in Republic of Venice until Curzola-Venice problem is not solved. --Rjecina 16:20, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) provide to write Venice criticism, if you can.
 * 2) The question of the ethnicity is properly presented, and is connected with the birthplace dispute.
 * 3) the "under picture" is based on the Christopher Columbus' article, that has similar problems.--Giovanni Giove 16:43, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This is only answer on comment from my discussion page of deleting POV tag. Wikipedia need to be neutral because of what is not possible to write 2 thinking and then attack only one. POV tag is staying because of article structure. I do not know about Marco Polo enough to edit article so I will not edit. You users which are making edit wars need to find compromise solution which is not POV. If you have agreement you can delete Curzola theory from article but you need to have agreement. On other side few argument written in part Criticism of the Curzola theory are for me if nothing else stupid but if I delete I will enter edit war and I do not want that ! --Rjecina 05:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If you critic the theory claiming that pyramids were built by E.T., you do not need to critic the "Pharaon theory". Do you get the concept? Let's say that Venice is a "well sourced" theory. Anybody is free to add the proper critics in any moment, but this is not a "must". Regards.--Giovanni Giove 08:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

you made a mistake!
Marco Polo was an Italian merchant not a Venetian trader. --

no he wasnt

tyler snyder is the filthiest wrestler ever!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.204.208.123 (talk) 20:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Was he Croatian???
Marco Polo (1254 ? - 1324) was a famous explorer, who opened Europe to Asia, including China. Henry S. Hart in his book "Venetian Adventurer: Marco Polo" (Oklahoma, 1967) states that Marco Polo was "a descendant of an old Dalmatian family which had come from Sibenik, Dalmatia, and settled in Venice in the 11th Century." Hart then goes on to say, "The crews of the Venetian ships were freemen, so many of them Slavonians (Croatians) from the Dalmatian Coast, that the long quay by St. Mark's was and is known as Riva degli Sciavoni (Slavonian = Croatian)." Marco Polo was buried in a Slavic quarter in Venice, near the Riva degli Sciavoni (or "Riva od Hrvatov", according to Croatian sources). Especially important is Marco Polo's Coat of Arms which includes four chickens. In Italian, Polo means chicken or fowl (written as pollo in Italian). In Croatian Pilich means chicks or chickens. Accidnet or coincidence? This is a question raised by dr Adam Eterovic, distinguished expert in Croatian heraldry.

As indicated by dr Eterovic, the merchant and the noble class in Dalmatia did use two names, one Latin-Italian as citizens of Vencie, and their own Slavic name in their own circles. Bogdanich became Bogdaneo, Mladinich - Mladineo, Arnerich - Arneri, Glavinich - Capogrosso. Some simply used the Latin - Italian meaning of their name, such as Cvietkovich - Florio or Fiorini, Vukasinovich - Lupich, Pilich - Polo, etc.

The Croatian Census of Population for 1948 lists DEPOLO on the Island of Korcula with 40 individuals in 15 families. Also the City of Drnis near Sibenik has over 25 families with more than 130 individuals named Pilich. How about Croatian Marco Polo?

A British historian James A. Gilman founded "The Institute of Marco Polo" on the island of Korcula, believing that this was the place where he had been born. See [Gregory Peroche], p. 49.

I would like to thank Adam Eterovich for permission to use material from his publications as well as for personal communication.

Sources and commentaries (see Eterovich's booklet for more details):

'''Genealogie de Nobili Veneti, Brit. Museum, Ms. 1155, 1679: "Polo clan originated in Sibenik, 1033" Biografia Universal Antica e Moderna, 1878, Venice: "Polo family came from Dalmatia" Dizionario Universal di Geografia, Storia e Biografia, 1878, Milano: "Marco came from Dalmatia" Dolcetti Giovanni; Il Libre D'Argent delle Famiglie Venete, Nobili Cittadine e Popolani, 1922, Venice: "Polo origins from Sibenik in 1033" Ida von Dueringsfeld; Aus Dalmatien, 1875: "Marco born on Korcula" Giovanna Monticola; La Vita Dal Dogi, 1900, Citta di Castelo: "Polo of Dalmatia became nobility in 1381" La Vita Dal Dogi, 1522, Venice: "Polo family came from Dalmatia" Storia Universal Italiana, 1878, Milano: "Polo family came from Dalmatia" Jules Verne; Viaggi di Marco Polo, 1884, Milano: "Polo family came from Dalmatia" Sir Henry Yule; The Book of Sir Marco Polo, 1903, London: "Polo originated in Sibenik in 1033 ''' sources Evergreen Montenegro1 23:23, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

--
 * You know perfectly well how to register an account here. It is easier than editing text. You have deleted my posts again!!! Why do you insist on deleting all my posts? This has been going on for too long. You insist on deleting other people's posts and you have been getting away with it since June 2005. It is clearly visible in your personal history. How many times to I have to ask you to stop ruining my edits. You just can't go around deleting people's stuff. I have tried to reason with you. But you deleted my posts again!! Stop vandalising. Euganeo 03:52, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

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 * That is ridiculous. As I stated in my posts if you read them clearly before you started deleting them, I clearly stated that I am fully aware of the Italianisations of surnames in the various colonies founded by the Venetians, the Genoese, etc. I clearly pointed out the changes to such surnames as the Kalergis nobel (Orthodox Greeks from Crete) family who started spelling the name Calergi. However, it was widely known that they were Greek. It was merely a method of spelling their surname utilising the Italian manner of lexiconographic association and retaining orthographic standardisation. I have studied the history of the Venetian Republic extensively. If you read my posts carefully you will realise that I am aware of all these things. My main point is that all this evidence that you have is pseudohistorical. Furthermore, there are a number of cities in Istria for example which were depopulated in the 16th century and then re-populated by nobel Greeks from the various islands under Venetian influence. Many of these people Italianised their Greek surnames and continued on living in Istria for many centuries. And yet this does not mean that all Istrians in those cities are of Greek descent, however the likelihood is much higher because of the history of those cities. I have discussed this all before. Discussions with a vandal such as yourself are a waste of time.
 * If you look at your own page you have been warned two more times by Wiki Admin to stop vandalising!
 * Euganeo 23:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

---

--

According to dr Filippi
-:::: Please note that Dr. Živan Filippi is actually of Slavic descent, his surname is an Italianised version of Filipec. His ideas and theories are considered pseudohistorical and serving a particular pro-nationalist Croatian agenda. He is not regarded by both Croatian and Italian scholars as having merit. Euganeo 02:04, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

-- (Italian writer)- Marko Polo and Korcula by dr. Zivan Filippi Korcula and the Polo Family

The 13th century was the time when Europe lived in constant conflict between its town-states, which were still preoccupied with the Crusades. It was a time when numerous armies were crossing European soil, destroying foreign towns and killing off their inhabitants. This was a time of poor living conditions, when food and clothing were lacking, and when European inhabitants did not know much about raw materials and agricultural skills. They had no knowledge of coal, oil, paper, gunpowder, compasses, coffee, potatoes, corn, tomatoes, tabacco...all the things without which the life of contemporary man would seem inconceivable.

But while political instability and economic poverty were limiting the life of the average European, reducing it to pure survival, the stability of the Roman Catholic Church - in spite of all dynastic struggles and doctrinarian rigidity, often with perilous consequences - at the same time opened to him spiritual perspectives, giving hope and laying down the structural base for cultural development. This was the time of the most splendid Gothic building, as for example the cathedral of Chartres, begun in 1294; of Reims in 1210; of Salisbury, erected in 1220. One of the most significant political events was the proclamation of Rudolf for Holy Roman Emperor, who managed to spread the influence of the Habsburgs to Austria, thus laying the foundations of the state which would, for the next five centuries, represent the bulwark of European culture.

In that interplay - of the material and the spiritual, of violence and reconciliation, a mixture of awareness and dream - an unique position was to be held by that small Italian town-state, called Venice. Built on an island archipelago, near the mainland, it looked like an enchanted vision which emerging like Aphrodite from the Adriatic Sea. But Venice was not an apparition. Built in stone in the magnificent style of the Middle Ages with emphasized Byzantine elements and connected by a network of channels and bridges, it manifested the power of a trading and maritime force, spreading its influence across the Adriatic aquatic surface, and over to the Mediterranean as far as Constantinople itself, which fell into its hands in 1202.

The town and island of Korcula was unprotected, and indeed there were many who fought for it at that time because of its strategic position on the maritime trade routes and also because of its geographical configuration which makes it ideal for the refuge of war ships and merchant galleys. For these reasons Korcula was unlikely to escape the powerful arm of Venice. The Croat population of the island and the town of Korcula tried hard to resist the intensions of the Venetian Republic. In order to hinder Venitian plans and protect their island community, the Korculans adopted their communal statute in 1214. That statute, the oldest legal document in this part of Europe, codified the whole life of the town and the island and, in many of its decrees, set an example of the European proportions. Numerous decrees regarding maritime law, the abolition of slavery, the protection of the environment etc. witness to a high political and cultural level in Korcula at that time; though it was living as were other Dalmatian towns in the 13th century as well, in the danger due to the avaricious appetites of the powerful forces around it. The Korcula statute protected Korcula from the authoritarian reign of Venice, but at the same time offered Korcula Venetian protection from other possible aggressors as it wanted to continue its relative prosperity, especially in shipbuilding, stone-cutting and shipping. The citizen of Korcula, though under the yoke and protection of Venice could guard his rights and his lifestyle from the outside world because of the legal codex, but he wished to look beyond the borders and the limits of western metaphysics and he he began to broader his aspirations to take in the outside world, for the fulfilment of his dream regarding a better future. His sailing ships ventured in search of the unknown and, by reason of their masculine violence ploughed the Mediterranean furrows, whereas the citizen himself remained in the secure maternal womb of his city nucleus and his peasant field. Sea furrow, field furrow, and a furrow as the line of his writing, welded in the Korcula statute, spelt for the Korcula citizen the chance of a wondrous joy of existence.

Amidst the overall risks of the European insecurity, Korcula, either by force or willingly, accepts the previous duke of Dubrovnik, Marsilie Zorzi, a Venetian nobleman, as its duke in 1254. In that same year Marko Polo was born.

The Polo family is much respected in Korcula; living overr centuries in the town of Korcula. It produced over the years numerous shipbuilders, smiths, stone-masons, tradesmen, priests, and public notaries. Marko's father Nikola and uncle Mate founded their trading outpost in Korcula, and the members of the Polo family were guardians of the walls around the town of Korcula. But, for the skilful tradesmen Nikola and Mate, Korcula was only the starting point of their business trade and their adventurous life. Marko's father and uncle penetrated deeply into Asia. They erected a tower and founded their own trading outpost in the town of Sudac on the Crimea. They had their main trade centre in Constantinople, to which many Korcula businessmen and shipbuilders were travelling and for some time they were living there. Mate and Nikola Polo traded successfully with the Persians. They were cognisant with the secret ways which led through Syria and Iraq as far as the coasts of Persian Gulf. They also knew the areas where the precious pearl oysters could be found. Wherever they ventured they were made welcome as people who were "noble-minded, wise and reasonable". They knew the routes that led to the fur traders of southern Siberia. They had trade contacts with the dignitaries of various Tartar peoples, and they reached the court of the Great Kublai Khan in China. They had started their journey before Marko Polo was born. The successful Korcula tradesmen feeling secure in their centuries-old native soil of Korcula, left their family and still unborn son Marko, as they gazed towards the Far East searching there for a realization of their dream of the rich life. Their ideas of fusing the cultural structures of the West and the East also decreed the destiny of Nikola's son, Marko Polo, from the day of his birth.

Marko achieved the usual education of a young nobleman of his age. He learned a lot about classical writers, he understood the text of the Bible and knew the basic theology of the Roman Catholic Church. He spoke French and Italian, especially the trade vocabulary, and was skilful in keeping business books. The Church books and songs in Croatian from Marko's time have been preserved in Korcula, and it is most probable that Marko knew the Croatian language as spoken by the inhabitants of Korcula. That knowledge was to help him very much when he traveled with his father and uncle across south Russia, then inhabited by Slavonic tribes and under Tartar reign. The European languages which Marko learned in his youth were to be the basis for the development of his polyglot talents when he came in touch, in the Far East, with Chinese; this, too, he learned successfully.

Korcula first had a bishop in 1300, which contributed a great deal to the writing and maintenance of the archives, both Church and secular, and some well-known families kept their own archives. Thus, the always rich Korcula tradition passed on by word of mouth, received also written support for the preservation of the collective communal memory, thus giving birth to capable men ready for the adventures of body and spirit in distant worlds.

The oldest written document in which the Polo family is mentioned is a deed of gift dated March 14th 1400. The then duke of Korcula, Mihajlo Musi and three Korcula judges donated to a certain Joannis a building in the town quarter on the eastern side, near the house of Bogavaz Dupolo. It is the exact location of the present "tower of Marko Polo"; from which one can see clearly all the Peljesac Channel; the route of trading vessels from Hellenic times to the present day.

A somewhat older document, from 1430, speaks about the life and work of members of the Polo family in Korcula in the 13th century, mostly featuring the centuries-old tradition of building Korcula style wooden boats, well known in the whole of the Mediterranean. That document is to be found in the private archives of the Kapor family in Korcula. In this, Mate Polo applies to the community of Korcula for a piece of land for his ship-yard, near the place where his grandfathers were building boats. That document is concrete evidence that the Polos were living in Korcula and building the boats even before Marko Polo was alive. Korcula shipyards were situated both on the eastern and western shores adjacent to the fortified medieval town. In this a way, the shipbuilders, working in the vicinity of the city walls, and living inside them, were able to defend their town in case of enemy attack. In the list mentioning ship-builders in 1594, there are 16 ship-wrights from the Polo family, and in the 1810 list, 22. From a legal case of 1778, we learn that the name of the owner of a shipyard in the eastern suburb was Marko Depolo. As the skills of ship-building, as well as the ownership of the shipyards, were passing from generation to generation, from father to son, various families were for centuries using the same plots for the needs of their workshops. It is evident from the land-registry maps of the past century, and from photos exhibited in the City Museum that Mihovil Depolo, Nikola's son, (1864-1943) was the owner of one of the bigger shipyards on the eastern side ("Borak"), and that Lovro Depolo (1853-1943) was the owner of the biggest shipyard of all on the western side of the town of Korcula ("Sv. Nikola").

The Korculans were not only outstanding ship-builders but also experienced seamen. They excelled, too, as good warriors in many sea battles; among them, members of the Depolo family. Archive material and memorials confirm that the duke of Korcula, Andrea Zane, in 1584, entrusted, among others, Jerolim, Pavle and Nikola Polo, with finding crews for the participation of the town of Korcula in one of the sea battles.

Archive material concerning Korcula reveals also the rich religious life of the Korcul people especially notable in the founding and regular activities of the brotherhoods. These offered, to the various groups belonging to specific crafts, a spiritual refuge and place of relaxation from every day hard work. Like others, the Polos lived an intensive religious life. Bishop of Vinzenza, Mihovil Priuli issued a charter on January 28 1603, for the founding of the brotherhood of St. Michael (Sveti Mihovil). Among the founders, were listed the names of Pavle, Marko, Jakov, sons of Dominik De-Polo, and Vicko and Ivan, sons of Nikola De-Polo. The name of the Franciscan procurator (representative), Marko de Polo, was inscribed on the apple of the silver carrying cross belonging to the Franciscan monastery founded on the island of Badija, near Korcula. The cross was the work of the Sibenik goldsmith, Dobrosevic, whose name was also inscribed on it. The alter painting of St. Ann in the church of All Saints, dating from the beginning of the 17th century, reveals in the text at its base that the painting was the gift of Vinzentie de Polo, presbyter Marko de Polo, and others.

If we walk through the cemetery of Korcula we can see numerous tombs of the Depolo family, dating from the founding of the cemetery to the present day. Outstanding for its beauty is the family vault of Nikola and Rosa Depolo from 1891.

The surname Polo derives from the name Pavao. It was first mentioned in its Croatian form Paulovic (Pavlovic), then in the Latin form De Paulis, Venetian Di Polo, and afterwards remained only Depolo. The earliest mentioned medieval Identification System was the first name and, beside it, the additions, which specified the particular person, differentiating it from others of the same name. The surname appeared only when one of the additions to the name became hereditary. The confirmation of this rule, and that in the case when the surname Polo derives from the name Paulus (Pavao), is found in the following example. The public notary, Jakov Giricic, drew up a will for the ship-builder Paulus (Pavao) in Korcula on February 1st 1565. His surname is not mentioned, only his first name. The original of that will is now kept in the Historical Museum in Dubrovnik. It is evident from other documents written after the said will (contracts, wills and registers) that the sons of the testator now bear the permanent surname, De Paulis. The grandson of the will-maker, Nikola, bears the surname Di Paulo, and the great grandsons, Ivan and Vicko, whom we find among the founders of the brotherhood of St. Michael, bear the surname De Polo.

A frequent use of the surname in its Croatian form of Paulovic (Pavlovic) is evident from a review of the registers between the 16th and 18th centuries. It is last time mentioned for the February 2nd 1747 when Margarita, daughter of Ivan Paulovich and Vica Foretich, was born. The form of the surname Depolo became common with the birth of Mihovil, son of Marko and Palma, on June 18th 1771. From that time it has been listed in this form only. There is an interesting case of the brothers Marko and Andrija, of whom each uses another form of the surname. The contract made in 1525, between the Korcula builder, Marko Pavlovic and the Korcula chapter house, states that Marko obliged himself to complete the building of the northern aisle of the cathedral in Korcula. However, he died during the building in 1532, and his brother, the priest Andrija, with the surname De Paulis was proclaimed the tutor of his children.

712 persons with the surname Polo-Depolo were born in the period between 1583 and 1946. Domenego di Polo, god-father at the baptism of Vinzenza Ismaelis on June 26th 1583, appears on the very first page of the first registry of births in Korcula. The most impressive survey of the expansion of the surname Polo-Depolo is the list of priors ("gastaldi") of the brotherhood of St. Roko, founded on August 16th 1575. A review of the archives of Dalmatian town-communities reveals that the members of the Polo family, later Depolo, have lived continuously in the town of Korcula for centuries.

'''With regard to Italian professional literature, the most frequent opinion is that the Polo family comes from Dalmatia. Such a claim is evidenced in the manuscript chronicle about Venetian history covering the history of Venice from its beginning until 1446, and also in the book Le vite dei dogi (The Lives of the Dukes), published in Venice in 1522. The same thesis is expounded in later Italian literature, as for example in Biografia universale antica e moderna from 1882 and Storia di Venezia from 1848.''' Evergreen Montenegro1 23:21, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Evergreen the Talk:Marco Polo page is not for posting essays!! It is for "discussion", you are not meant to cut and paste large chunks of pseudohistorical essays from the internet. You have make a mockery of the Wikipedia and you have ruined this talk page. Stop vandalising!
 * Euganeo 01:22, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

.


 * This is preposterous, you claim that I am User:DakotaKhan and User:Ghepeu???? THat is ridiculous. You are a vandal and many of the Admin know this.
 * Euganeo 23:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Evergreen, stop destroying this page with all your edits. A number of Wiki Admin have warned you time and time again to stop doing this. Your history of vandalism on this page goes back until June 2005 ! Anyone can discover this by checking your History. This is something that you cannot delete! Stop your continual blanking, deleting and vandalising. I tried to discuss this with you in a civil way but you have hurled insults and false accusations at me. I am only User:Euganeo. It is impossible for me to be any of the other users you accuse me of being. They're Admin that I have notified of your vandalism! Stop it, you have destroyed this discussion page. It is an absolute mess. Stop deleting my posts. Stop insulting Users. Delete your own posts and leave the Wikipedia alone! Euganeo 00:18, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

THE HISTORY OF WARNINGS YOU HAVE DELETED Most of these Users and Admin Users have warned you for specifically deleting or vandalising elements of the Talk:Marco Polo page.


 * DakotaKahn 21 May 2006
 * Betacommand 27 April 2006 - revert edits
 * Naconkantari 27 April 2006 - reverts edits
 * Rory096 27 April 2006
 * ragesoss 10 February 2006
 * Shanel 3 January 2006
 * Winter 3 January 2006
 * Pilotguy 5 April 2006
 * ???? 20 December 2005
 * GhePeU 12 July 2005
 * GhePeU 30 June 2005

You have a history of vandalism that stems back as early as 30th June 2005 !!

Euganeo 00:18, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Evergreen, please sign this properly as discussed in other posts I've put here. Also, you should inform yourself properly, I'm not those other people, it's actually impossible. If you look at how intricate their pages are, it's just crazy. Speak with them individually if you like. You'll realise that I am not them. They are people I appealed to help you realise that you can't delete other people's posts. Just like Meni Rosenfeld told you on your discussion page. Thanks Euganeo 00:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe he was Polish?
I see you people argue whether he was Italian or Croatian. There's something else I heard long time ago. He supposedly was Polish and "Polo derived from "Polaco". Just a thought to stir up a conversation.

[[User:Norum|Norum]

Not Croat, just read Marco's book
Here are two links about Polo's Book and  (in Italian). From the Prologue, it's possible to read:


 * "Incomincia il libro di Messer Marco Polo cittadino di Venegia...."


 * "Furono due nobili cittadini di Vinegia, ch'ebbe nome l'uno messer Matteo e l'altro messere Nicolao...."


 * "E questo libro vi conterà per ordine si come misier Marco polo, nobile e savio zitadin de Veniesia....."

So, the father, the uncle and Marco are definied "citizens of Venice".

More:


 * "Li due frategli, udendo ciò, pensaro d'andare in questo mezzo a Vinegia per vedere loro famiglie; alora si partiro d'Acri e vennero a Negroponte e poscia a Vinegia. E qui vi trovò messer Niccolao che la sua moglie era morta, e erane rimaso uno figliulo di 15 anni, ch'avea nome Marco; e questi è quello messer Marco di cui questo libro parla."

So after a trip of years (they were in China), the Polos are back in Venice. They want to go in Venice to see their families: so, their home was in Venice.

Nicolo' discover thate the wife is dead, and he meets a son of 15.

Can anybody tell me how is possible for Marco to be born in Curzola?

--Giovanni Giove 18:55, 13 July 2006 (UTC) -

--- 1) first of all: Marco Polo was NOT born in Curzola. Just read what I've wrotten. It is NOT possible. He was born in the CITY of Venice.

2)EVEN IF: in the time of Marco Polo, coastal and Insular Dalmatia was basically romance and not "croat". It became croat some centuries later. In the XIX and XX cent. there was still a large italian community.

--Giovanni Giove 10:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh my God!:-(((
Nicolo is back from China after 20 years. He find a boy of 15, son of the dead wife! In Venice!!! That what it's wrotten in the book! Can you tell me how is possible for Marco, to be born in Curzola?! Well, that's the evidence and I begin to be tired. Ivan

--Giovanni Giove 15:31, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The only evidence: born in Venice
Nicolò Polo, after 20 years, decide to go in Venice to see the family. He discover that the wife is dead and that she left a boy of 15, called Marco.

(from "Il Milione")

What does it means? It means that Marco was Born in Venice (the town, not the Republic).

Stop.

Your Ivan

--Giovanni Giove 14:11, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Italizations of article
This makes me puke. Why are names ital-ized? Why Niccolo? If someone could have a look at the article on HR wikipedia - http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marko_Polo.

There is proof that Polo is a Croatian surname - "pol" is a bird. Polos had 4 of those on their emblem, and Marko himself signed himself as "Pol", not "Polo".

Names of his relatives were Nikola, Marko, Mate, NOT Niccolo etc.

All these facts have been translated from the Croatian wikipedia. Not made up.

And they are FACTS.


 * No, they're not facts, they're 19th century allegations, according to many scholars forged by Croatian nationalists to give prestige to their nationality. GhePeU 11:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * And this thieving behaviour of yours isn't nationalistic? Despite numerous proof that he was born on Korcula? Why do you keep erasing that? Why isn't it mentioned even as an alternative? 213.202.67.63

--


 * Thanks on your reply. It's obvious that this article is completely pro-Italian, therefore I am marking it for a POV check. 213.202.66.93

)

Changes

 * Re: it has been discussed.
 * The birth place of Polo is Venice (the town). You talk about Polo, but, it is evident, you had never read his book.
 * This book says that Nicolò and Matteo were in Acri (a town), then in Negroponte (or Euboea) that was a Venitian island. Then they decided to go to Venice. It's evident that the book speaks about "places" (towns and islands), and NOT "states". So, if it's wrotten "Venice", it's the TOWN of Venice, not the "Republic of Venice". So the Polo family was in Venice (the town) and Marco MUST be born in Venice, because he was 15 when Nicolò was bach after 21 years. Marco was the son of Nicolo's wife (that what is wrotten).
 * I've quoted everthing!
 * Furhermore, Curzola is NEVER mentioned in the book.


 * Conclusions.
 * Marco was born in Venice.
 * About supposed "nationalties", well....this is another speech.
 * --Giovanni Giove 12:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Recommendations on making this article NPOV
Hello, I have a few ideas to make this article NPOV and fair to both sides.

- Korcula, Blato on the island of Korcula should be added as alternative places of Marco's birth

- provide alternative versions of Marco's relatives' names (such as Nikola, Mateo, etc)

- Classifying Marco not only under "Italian explorers", but under "Croatian explorers" as well (if one wishes to argue saying Dalmatia wasn't a part of Croatia, neither Venetia wasn't part of Italy!) Juraj5 22:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I strongly disagree. Nicolò and Maffeo Polo, as well as the other brother Marco, were Venetian citizens and traders. Their wives were Venetian, their sons and daughters lived in Venice and married in Venetian families. Maffeo, Nicolò and Marco lived for the longest part of their lifes in the East, but they were part of the merchantile community who spoke the Venetian language, and finally they retired in Venice. Every document of the time, including Nicolo's last will is written in Latin or in Venetian, and we know for sure that Venetian was their primary language. There is no proof that they spoke Croatian; as a matter of fact, until the 19th century in Dalmatia there were a consistent minority, and probably a majority during the Middle Ages, of Dalmatian Language-speakers, so we could argue that if they were originary of Sebenico, they could be members of the Dalmatian-speaking community. By the way, Dalmatian is a Romance language, completely unrelated to Croatian language (if we can speak of Croatian language in the 13th century). There is abolutely no reason to include Mateo, Nikola or other modern Croatian names in this article. GhePeU 23:01, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Is BARBA the Croatian word for uncle?:-))) Really?!????:-)))) How do you call that food in Croatia?? Pasta?!... yez!!:.. the croatian word for noodle;-) Bye!--Giovanni Giove 19:54, 20 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Nope! "Barba" is not a Dalmatian word. Is used for "uncle" in many dialects of North-East Italy..... it's one of the many Venetian word you have in your dialect. Like pastsuta or rizibizi...... There is an evidence about Marco Polo. He was born in Venice, as is possible to understan reading the first pages of his book. I have told nothing about the supposed origins of the family. But Marco, for sure, was born in Venice. ... The only chance against is that Marco's mum went alone in Curzola/Korcula, to come back in Venice after been  ingravided by a proud local Croat fisherman:-P.... if you think is possible, just let me know.--Giovanni Giove 08:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Giovanni Giove is correct. Barba is a Veneto dialect word which has been in use for an extensive period of time. There are other North-Eastern dialects which incorporate barba as meaning uncle. The word originates in Byzantine Greek (it is still used in formal Greek today as meaning "uncle") and was incorporated into the Veneto dialects due to extensive Venetian interaction with the Byzantines and the numerous colonies that Venice had throughout what is now considered the islands of Greece. Pastasuta is merely a regionalised (or Venetianised) version of the Italian word pastasciutta. This is a composite word meaning "dry pasta" (pasta + asciutta).
 * How all of this proves anything is beyond me. I left this discussion board some time ago after being repeatedly attacked and having my postings vandalised heavily by a number of pro-nationalist jingoist Slavs who wanted to denigrate my objective posts as much as possible.
 * There are a number of words that "Croatians/Istrians/Dalmatians" have absorbed from the Veneto dialect. Greek islanders have adopted these words also ("risibisi" is also used by Greeks; along with "karekla" which comes from the Veneto word for chair "carega", which itself comes from "karekla" an Ancient Venetic word for chair, and itself derives from the Ancient Greek word, "karekla", naturally meaning chair).
 * It was suggested above that Marco Polo signed his name as "Pol" on occassion.
 * "Pol" can also be a legitimate orthographic feature particular to a 15th/16th century variety of the Venetian dialect of Italian. It was quite common for the specific branch of the dialect of the Veneti (those from the Veneto region) who came from Venice to leave out the final vowel in words ending in -n, -l and -r (look up works by the 19th century scholar Boerio who wrote definitive editions on the Venetian dialects of earlier times).
 * Venetian dialect: The dialect of the Veneti, known as Vèneto has at least 5 or sometimes 6 different branches. Dalmatian and Istrian are considered to have descended from a mixture of Vèneto and Furlan. The specific Istrian dialect located on the border between Italy and modern-day Slovenia is referred to as Bisaccio and is peculiar to that part of the world. As for the 5 major branches of the Vèneto dialect found within the Veneto region they include:
 * 1. Venetian (from the islands of Venice as well as the most immediate coastal suburbs)
 * 2. Padovano / Veronese / Vicentino (from Padova, Verona, Vicenza)
 * 3. Trevigiano (from Treviso)
 * 4. Polesino / Rovigotto (from the Polesine and Rovigo)
 * 5. Feltrino / Bellunese (from Belluno, Feltre and northern Veneto)
 * Of these, number 2 (Padovano / Veronese / Vicentino) is considered the largest and most common variety of the dialect. While Venetian is recognised as the dialect of the region's capital (Venice) but as having a number of different features to the mainland branches.
 * Venetian occasionally omits the alteration of labial consonants in words whereby the aforementioned feature preceeds a -p or similar consonant (eg. sempre = senpre in mainland dialect but does not change for Venetian in some cases)
 * Venetian drops the final vowel in particular lexicons where it is preceeded by an -n, -l or -r (in the mainland and most common branch of the Vèneto dialect the dropping of the final vowel occurs predominantly in words where it is preceeded by an -n only! This means that in Venice it would be common practice to drop the final -o in the word Polo; Furlan on the other hand would drop the final vowel where it is preceeded by all the above consonants with the addition of -t)
 * There are a number of other factors which differentiate the Venetian branch of the Vèneto dialect from the mainland varieties and this extends well into the 15th century and perpetuates in various forms today.
 * As for the widespread usage of Venetian during the time of the Republic of Venice, it was quite common for writers of manuscripts and official documentation to use Venetian. By the same token it was common for them to use Tuscan Italian or a mixture of Venetian and literary Tuscan. Amongst the colonies (such as the Greek islands, Dalmatia and so on) it was even more common for documents to be written in Venetian.
 * As I pointed out earlier, it is necessary to consider all the facts. Basing your opinion on small points such as the spelling of a signature is not academically sound, because as you can see from my evidence above, it was in-fact very understandable that on occasion Marco Polo would have spelt his surname as Pol .... after all he was in-fact a Venetian citizen to say the least!
 * This discussion area is for talking about Marco Polo. Not for promoting ridiculous pro-Slavic nationalist propaganda to immorally appropriate individuals from other peoples to attribute to themselves as part of an ongoing campaign of pseudohistorical manipulation and cultural subterfuge.
 * Euganeo 02:56, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The true origin of Mark O'Polo
The Italian hijackers not content of claiming that lasagne originated in Italy when all the evidence suggests it was first made in England. I can not sit by and listen to the debate of the origins of the now known and corrupted name of Marco Polo.

Mark O’Polo was actually Irish, heathens…………………………… As commemorated on a postage stamp by the Irish Post Office in 2001.

Croations
I didn't realize until today that Croatians were so desperate to have some heroes to call their own. Are you all that desperate?? If this doesn't work out, maybe you can try to claim someone else? I know that the Slavs down in the FYROM like to believe Alexander the Great was a Slav too.. *snicker*. :))

Nobody is desperate. Just want the evidence to be heard, that's all. I think that's fair. As for Alexander the Great, interesting topic. Some say Ancient Greeks and the Greeks of today are two different people. So him being Macedonian Slav or non Greek is a possibilty. In my opinion he was Greek Macedonian as indicated by most accounts but hearing the Macedonian Slav theory does make you question it just a little. He was also said to be half Epirote..those people are said to be related to modern Albanians.

Evergreen Montenegro1 22:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Evergreen Montenegro1... you are really denying the truth. It seems like if you are a revanscist and a slavic nationalist. Some information for you: Venice does not exist anymore, but Marco Polo was Venetian, Alexander the Great was Greek.Crengo 10:54, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Epirotes are not half-Albanians, on the contrary southern Albania is a greek-speaking area (Agya Saranda, Argirokastro, etc) usually called North Epirus.
 * Slavic tribes reached Balcanic peninsula very recently (from an historical point of view). The cities in Dalmatia were not Slavic culturally, and dalmatians were not croatians until 1940 (people in Slavonski Brod look really different from people in Zara, Spalato and Fiume). Unfortunately during WWII Italian fascists tried to to italianise the slavic countryside (brutally killing thousand people) around Dalmatian/Istrian cities, and in this way they created an anti-italian movement that, after the war, forced 500'000 dalmatians to migrate from their cities to avoid death in a foibe. If you visit Zara, Sebenico or Spalato you will see how many buildings, churches, hospitals were built by families with venetian surnames.

Cultural depictions of Marco Polo
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards,  Durova  18:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

POLO ORIGIN DEBATE a waste of time and effort
I have deleted some of my debate with other Italian users. We're fighting over what is already known - accepted and has been printed many times over - Marco Polo was said to be of Dalmatian origin and this has come from Italians themselves. Many other backgrounds have said the same, including English..so i don't see how this view is Croatian propaganda. Like it or not, evidence is there and the evidence doesn't lie. Some of these Italian users here probably will tell you that Columbus was Italian without doubt too and will shoot down any other user if they tell them he was Spanish or Portuguse.

The Marco Polo article is Italian POV and any reference to Marco being born on Korcula and his possible Croatian origin gets deleted. Why?

I thought Wiki was free to edit aslong as sources can be listed. I have listed sources again and again, most are non Croat as I keep stating...

I think this is so unfair

PS - Nobody is claiming anything...Marco Polo was Venetian 100% ...Venetians were both Italian and Croatian people not just Italian.

Evergreen Montenegro1 00:07, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * No. You insisted that he was born on Curzola. And he was not. Even if the family had origins in Dalmatia, this does not mean he had Croatian origins. You perfectly know that 1) Dalmatia was for the first time incorporated to Croatia only in 1939. 2) Slaves in Dalmatia were only one of the etnich groups, and coastal Dalmatia were mainly romance/Italian. Your Ivan from Venice.--Giovanni Giove 08:34, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Dalmatia was part of Croatia first time in 1939?!? Why don't you read History of Croatia. And second you probably meant Slavs not slaves.--Factanista 02:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I suppose you should read an history book. Dalamtia was Venitian (whilste Croatia and Slavonia were Hungarian), then Dalmatian were Austrian. When Dalmatia joined Jugoslavia, it was not immediatly annexed to Croatia.--Giovanni Giove 09:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Dalmatia was not Venetian until 1420s when Hungarian-Croatian pretender to the throne sold his rights to it to Venice. As for Croatia(Croatia-Slavonia) it was in personal union with Hungarian crown, it was not "hungarian". It is you who needs to read some history books or at least refer yourself at History of Croatia. --Factanista 17:18, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Perfect:).... between 1420 and 1939 it was not part of Croatia..... finnaly you adimit it. --Giovanni Giove 21:12, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I finally admit it? LOL! You are totally insane...where did I not admit it...no where did we actually discussed this before anyway? Have we ever? Please control yourself. Besides this is relevant how? Only you know... --Factanista 22:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

-- Ivan, He was said to be born in Korcula according to most historians. Korcula was part of Venice at the time hence saying Venice as his birth place is also correct. Means the same place. But let's leave it at that ok. This is all pointless. As you said there is evidence to suggest he was from Dalmatian Coast...now was he Italian or Croatian ???? Both are possible just like Columbus could be Spanish or Italian ...same thing. That is all i wanted to say.

Evergreen Montenegro1 21:55, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No, I said you several time that in his book Marco said the his town was in the TOWN of Venice and he was born in the TOWN of Venice. --Giovanni Giove 20:37, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok He was Italian born in Venice. Evergreen Montenegro1 02:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Basically, he was Venitian from Venice...--Giovanni Giove 15:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I reckon, even if his family was Croation(which I dont think it was), from every thing I've ever learnt about Polo, he was definetly born in a place called Venice, even if that place is not part of Venice anymore. Short version: Polo was Italian. Any way, why is everyone arguing about this?! It's pointless and ANNOYING!!! Evey book I've seen about Polo says that he is Italian/Venetian-same thing-so why is this the only place where this matter is argued ! It's stupid! from hellfire.203.214.10.232 07:33, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not that simple. We are talking about ethnicity, there were many Slavs living in the Venetian Republic of the time, and while he undoubtably was born in the Republic, he might very well have been a Croat if his birthplace was the predominantly Croat city of Korčula (Curzola). All the more wealthy Croatian families were highly Italianized, and if he was a Croat he would have been fluent in Venetian. He was probably Italian, of course, but the debate is legitamate. DIREKTOR 12:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Origins
It seems that supporter of the 'Croaticty' of Polo, finnaly accepted that Polo is born in Venice. It seems that now they have turned to claim for supposed Croatian origins. The user Factantista has recenently started an edit war on this subject. Everything is possible, but before to claim that the Polo's family, was originary from Sebenico or Curzola, he should post the sources. I've heard about Sebenico, but nothing from Curzola. Or better, there is that unsipported 'theory' about the Polos still living in Curzola and the coats of arm with the kitchens. I wonder if Fatcantista support this theory in his claiming about the Curzolan origins.--Giovanni Giove 23:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC) - Giovanni, I don't accept ok as the evidence contradicts your view on him being just Italian. But I have given in as one of us has to. No point filling up the discussion page here with an origin debate. Both origins should be listed as possible. BOTH. Columbus has 4 listed. I don't see the problem as many other websites, books etc..all mention his possible Dalmatian, Croatian, Slav "possible" origin.

As for Factantista ...good luck to you and him in the debate...see ya. Evergreen Montenegro1 03:01, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * All the 4 origins are wrong. A recent  meeting of  HDZ historians has established that Columbus is born in the Croatian Island of Braz, and his real name was Kristofer Golubic. Very important is the Golubic's coat of arm, showing a pigeon flying over a bullshit. Colombo is the Italian word for pigeon, in Croatian golub is pigeon. An accident? A lot of pigeons are still present in the beautiful island, and they can be tasted in all the local resturants. Golubic shall be considered Croat until somebody shows the opposite... see ya!--Giovanni Giove 23:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Request to block 129.1.206.75
129.1.206.75 put vulgar vandilism on this article. I don't know how to block him or how to request can someone please do that.

Protection tag
The article was vandalised several times in the last weeks. That the reason because I've added a sportect tag. If you don't agree, please, answer here, or (better) contact an administrator. Somebody removed the tag, saying it "does not protect the artcle". I think is not true. The article shall be protected from vandalism and from edit wars. If somebody has a better idea to protect the article, I pray him to anbswer here. In any case, if somebody does not agree with the tag, I pray here to tell his reason here. Thank you.--Giovanni Giove 13:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 * For the fourth time today, take it to WP:RFPP. Adding the template does NOT protect the article. -- Majorly ( Talk ) 14:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 * For the fourth time I disagree. For the fourth time I beg you to contact an adiministrtor if you don't agree with me. For the fourth time I point out that is necessary to protect the article. Tell me how to do it, if you think 'sportect tag' is useless!!!! Thank you.--Giovanni Giove 14:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I am an administrator by the way. The sprotect tag IS useless without an admin protecting the page. -- Majorly ( Talk ) 14:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 * In this case you may assume the protection task, or may report the problem to another administrator. The page WAS vandalized. The tag IS effective in avoiding vandalism. After it was removed vandalisms occured. I ask you:
 * 1) Why the tag is usless without an admin.
 * 2) In the case, assume the protection or report to another admin.
 * 3) Please, tell me your ideas to stop vandalism and edit wars.
 * Thank you.--Giovanni Giove 14:29, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 * After it was added vandalism carried on – see here where you added it, but it was still vandalised. This, I think is proof that it is useless without admin protection. If vandalism continues I'll protect the article, then add the sprotect tag. As I've already told you many times, take pages to WP:RFPP to request protection over edit wars, and report vandals to WP:AIV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Majorly (talk • contribs)
 * You have seen I did it.... next time (it is just a suggestion) tell you are a moderator and there is a procedure. If you arrive to tell just 'it does not work', the 1st thing I think is 'who are you', the 2nd 'what are you saying?'. (just a suggestion!). Bye.--Giovanni Giove 09:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It is you who is vandalizing this article in first place, I find this ironic. --Factanista 16:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

"Croatian POV"?!
I would like to hear from some people how is the fact (which is btw. substantied on this very page) of the posibble (and most likely even) origin of Polo from Curzola and Sebenico "Croatian POV"? I would just like to hear one good argument that would support such ridiculous claim. --Factanista 23:56, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * First you have to post sources for your claims, as it was already asked. I heard about a possible origin from Sebenico. I never heard any serious arguments about Curzola (in this page too). --Giovanni Giove 09:22, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Why don't you read posts by Evergreen, he already posted some interesting things, you should read them. It has also been more than enough substantiated to be at least mentioned in the article. In short the fact of his most posibble origin from Sebenico and Dalmatia in general has nothing to do with Croatia or Croatian POV as you call it. --Factanista 08:34, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) the term Croatian POV is not mine
 * 2)I agree with a possible origin from Sebenico
 * 3)I agree that this origin as nothing to do with a possible 'Croatian' origin.
 * 4)The origin from Curzola is not supported by any serious source. It's false. Just nationalistic propaganda NHZ style. --Giovanni Giove 14:00, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * In this discussion it is, you are the one insisting on it, I don't see what is "Croatian POV" in his most likely origin from Dalmatia which you yourself here admit. As for Curzola it again has nothing to do with nationalistic propaganda, it's a fact that De Polo or Polo surname is very common in Curzola which means there is something to it and this has been acknowledged by various researchers and geneologists. --Factanista 14:15, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * ROTFL. De Polo is a common name in Venice too... such as Polo. By the way more than in Kurcola. I could introduce you a real "Marco Polo" (he was my theacher). It should be intresting to know why the Venitian Polos and Depolos are less valid that the ones of Kurcola.--Giovanni Giove 14:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Heh...you are again being ridiculous. I DID NOT SAID De Polo's in Curzola are "less valid" than those in Venice, that is your statement. All I said was that there are De Polo's in Curzola and that they have lived there for a very long time and as such it proves they were present there and also gives us at the very least some credibility that this family has origins and connection there. Reading with understanding is the key word here. --Factanista 15:34, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * What does it give 'crediblity'?:-)))) . The only support of the theory is that 1) there are some DePolo in Curzola. 2) a supposed coat of armw with Ciken... this second point based abput th WRONG supposition that 'Polo' means cicken
 * It gives credibility to the fact his family may have come from Dalmatia (we have other sources as well). And also it's not "supposed" CoA, his CoA really does have chicken's on it which means the story about the connection between the animals on it and his surname is not all that nonsense as you would like others to believe. --Factanista 16:46, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I am sure there are more Polos and De Polos in Venice's city than there are in Korčula. In Korčula, Polos are rather rare, but there are countless Pilić's there. Evlekis 15:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC) Евлекис

Giovanni does sometimes let his guard down and does agree to a "MAYBE". Well, Giovanni if we have a maybe we should mention it in the article. Columbus has all 4 of his "MAYBE ORIGINS" PS I have seen your edits on Croat Ivan Lupis where you claim him to have been Italian origin. Fair enough, nobody has deleted your edits there. You should do the same here and stop pushing Italian pov. If evidece support's that Marco Polo was Croat origin it should be mentioned. Venetian Polo (Italian and/or Croatian origin) I don't see a problem with that.

Go to the Columbus site and fight there to make him Italian only, see what the Spanish say about that theory... Evergreen Montenegro1 03:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

QUESTION - Was he buried in San Lorenzo?
Is this true? Is his grave still there? Not sure where the original author got this information from. Evergreen Montenegro1 21:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

According to The Blue Guide: Venice, he was buried in San Lorenzo, but his sarcophagus was lost during the rebuilding of 1592.

4.243.118.241 16:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC) Daniel F. Baedeker

Thanks for answering this question Daniel. I too found this question of interset like Mr Evergreen from Montenegro. Glad someone posted a reply finally. Running cool 03:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced, original research section
I've moved this ection as unsourced from the main article to here; until sources aren't provided, it can't stay there.

Did the trip really take place?
According to a famous story, a priest begged Marco on his deathbed to confess that he had lied in his stories. Marco refused, insisting, "I have not told half of what I saw!" This anecdote is an example of the skepticism that welcomed Marco's tales during his life.

In recent times, while most historians believe Marco Polo did reach China, some have proposed he did not get that far and only retold information he had heard from others. Those skeptics point out that among other omissions, his account fails to mention Chinese writing, chopsticks, tea, foot binding or the Great Wall (although in the last case this should not be surprising given that the wall was not built at its present dimensions until the Ming Dynasty). Also, Chinese records of the time do not mention him, despite the fact that he claimed to have served as a special emissary for Kublai Khan&mdash;which is puzzling, given the careful record-keeping in China at that time.

On the other hand, Marco describes other aspects of Far Eastern life in much detail: paper money, the Grand Canal, the structure of a Mongol army, tigers, the Imperial postal system, the sea route from China to the Middle East (including references to Sumatra, Java -- as Java major and Java minor respectively -- and the Philippines) and the existence of rhinoceros in Sumatra. He also refers to Japan by its Chinese name "Zipang" or Cipangu. This is usually considered the first mention of Japan in Western literature. However, it is possible that Marco heard of these things from Arab silk road traders. Trade between the Middle East and Far East was flourishing and travellers are often happy to retell stories of their ventures in great detail.

In his defense, much of what he did not mention is circumstantial and there are no known arguments today to refute any of the descriptions he wrote about. Additionally, Marco gives a detailed account of accompanying an embassy from China to the Khan of Persia and of the delivery of Princess Kökechin for marriage to the Khan. Both Chinese and Persian annals mention this mission and include the names of the envoys; but the additional information about the journey which Marco provides is such that, one can reasonably assume, he could only have known if he had been a member of that embassy.

Marco Polo is also believed to have described a bridge that later was the site of the Marco Polo Bridge Incident, a battle that marked the beginning of the Second Sino-Japanese War.--Aldux 12:01, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

China & Spaghetti
The ancient chinese invented paper? I wouldn't contest the fact that they had their own paper, but paper as we know it draws its name from "papyrus". The ancient egyptians invented paper.

As for Spaghetti, not only, as said in the article, is there evidence in ancient artworks that pasta existed in italy long before Marco Polo did, but also near Mt. Vesuvius mills for the grinding of wheat have been found, dating from several centuries bc. 82.51.57.163 22:17, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Papyrus isn't the same as the paper we use today. The paper we use today, ie. that made from pressed wood filings, was invented in China. mike4ty4 02:35, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Citations for spaghetti
Citations for origin of noodles or spaghetti : 4000 yrs old noodles found in China.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4335160.stm http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/10/1012_051012_chinese_noodles.html

81.255.155.129 09:26, 28 January 2007 (UTC)Ming

Origin Debate
Marco Polo's origin is debateable and this should be reflected in the article in an encyclopedic manner. I've edited the excerpts about origin to reflect this. I've done so in a similar fashion that Encyclopaedia Britannica approaches the issue. Britannica is a more authoritative source than any of our personal opinions.
 * removed unsourced/highly biased and subjective writing by User:Ghepeu. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia.  Not a soap box for your nationalistic pride.  An entire article can easily be written about the Marco Polo origin debate and please do so if you feel that the views of Venetian historians need to be heard on Wikipedia.  However, in the scope of this article the matter should be dealt with succinctly and objectively.  I have attempted to so. --Searchmaven 19:52, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sick of all your balcanic nationalist crap, you're all indipendent now, there's no reason to try to rewrite the past for your petty agendas. Wikipedia is a nightmare, Albanians who remove every single bit of Greek language or Greek names from Alexander the Great or Pyrros, Croats who remove every hint of Venetian past from Dalmatian-related articles, Slovenians who purge the Istria-related articles, Serbs and Croats who keep reverting the name of the languages, it is unaccettable! That "biased and subjective writing" was not written by me (check the history), it's there since at least the last year, after months of edit wars by nationalist Croats with their petty wars, it has footnotes and use accessible sources including the book itself where you can find (I'm citing) "Two branches of the Polo Family were then recognized, distinguished by the confini or Parishes in which they lived, as Polo of S. Geremia, and Polo of S. Felice. ANDREA POLO of S. Felice was the father of three sons, MARCO, NICOLO, and MAFFEO. And Nicolo was the Father of our Marco." So please cut this bullshits, and don't hide your need to censor what you don't like with words like "the matter should be dealt with succinctly and objectively". The "Croatian origin" of Marco Polo and his birth in Curzola are a legend, and the only historians who support it are the Croatian historian since the 19th century: this is a fact, and you can use the sorry excuse of "dealing succinctly" to give the same relevance to the two "theories". GhePeU 20:51, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually the man leading the argument in favor of Korcula as Polo's birth place is a British historian who was born in Peking, China. Unlike you, I wouldn't be so ignorant to suggest that a counter argument is limited to historians within a certain nationality (eventhough it was a Venetian historian that you cited in this article).  I recognize that a dichotomy exists and needs to be presented.  I've done so in the matter that Britannica approached the issue because they've done well.
 * If your "leading man" is James A. Gilman, he is probably the only non Croatian "historian" who still supports the Croatian theory (and it seems that most google hits regarding this man are from the Croatian pro-Korcula sites). WP:NPOV. GhePeU 08:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Moreover, if you didn't notice it, the section is about Marco Polo origin, not about its birthplace. Marco's birthplace can't be established with absolute certitude, and even if the "Curzola theory" is generally considered a legend, it is not possible to exclude that Niccolò Polo and his wife lived in Curzola in 1254. The section deals with the theory that assumes that Polo was born in Curzola and infers that being born in Curzola he was a Croat. If you check the history of this article you'll see that there were a great number of disruptive users, all of them Croats or of Croatian origin, who tried to assert that "Marco Polo was a Croat" using always the same two biased websites (based in Korcula). The actual text is the results of those conflicts. Simply saying that "there are historian who thinks A and historians who think B" gives the same prominence to A and B even if B is not generally accepted. As per your assertion that I used a Venetian historian, Zorzi resumed the current thory and the accepted historic facts in a book that I happen to have read, so I cited it. The book has a large bibliography to back its reasoning. GhePeU 16:57, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I've made a request for comment and request for third opinion regarding this article. To suggest that all users with a different opinion are 'disruptive croats' is self-serving don't you think?  Your personal views about the validity of the Curzola view point should not be part of an encycolopedia.  My issue with the paragraph is question is that it is written highly subjectively.  This is why I reworded into a simple, succinct, and objective paragraph.  I modeled it after Encyclopaedia Britannica because it is one of the few objective sources in this passionate debate.  I cannot let your section remain as it is written.


 * Section in Question:


 * ==Marco Polo's origin ==
 * The tourism authorities of Korčula advertise the town as the birthplace of Marco Polo, on the base of a later legend that places the Polo family in the Dalmatian town of Šibenik, later moving to Korčula and then to Venice. During the second half of the 13th century the island was part of the Republic of Venice, but today is part of Croatia. As a consequence, in Croatia Polo is often presented as Croatian.


 * This legend probably was born because, according to a dubious tradition reported by Ramusio, Marco Polo was captured by the Genoese during the Battle of Curzola, in 1298. With the birth of Croatian nationalism in the 19th century, Croatian historians began to claim that, Marco Polo having being born in Korčula, he was an ethnic Croat.
 * The Venetian historian Alvise Zorzi, among others, disproved the theory and also pointed out that even if Marco Polo was effectively born in Curzola, during the 13th century the island was inhabited by people speaking a romance language (Dalmatian first, Venetian after) and not a Slavic language and that in the town of Curzola a form of Venetian language was spoken until 1920, so it's arbitrary to assume that is family was Croatian.
 * Furthermore, there are proofs that the Polo family lived in Venice since the 11th century, documents report that Andrea Polo, grandfather of Marco, was resident in the Parish of San Felice and we know from The Travels of Marco Polo that Marco and his mother resided in Venice during Niccolò's first voyage to China.


 * Even without other reliable evidences, the popularity of the theory's asserting the Croatian origins of Marco Polo has grown in Croatia over recent years as a result of the political situation. Even Croatia's former president Franjo Tuđman claimed several times Polo as a Croatian, sometimes on official occasions.


 * Suggested Rewrite:


 * ==Marco Polo's origin ==
 * Marco Polo's origin is an object of common debate. There are two historical view points in this matter. Some historians claim the Polo family originated in Venice Italy, while others claim the Polo family originated from Curzola, Venetian Dalmatia (now Korcula, Croatia).


 * A British historian James A. Gilman founded "The Institute of Marco Polo" on the island of Korcula, believing that this was the place where he had been born. The claim is based upon historical census information of families with similar surnames, and the fact that Marco fought at the Battle of Curzola between the Republic of Genoa and the Republic of Venice. On the other hand, those who put his birthplace in Venice may have a reason to do so: Korcula island was, in Polo’s time, part of the Republic of Venice, but today is part of Croatia. Moreover, Venice is clearly indicated as Polo’s birthplace in his book Il milione. A somewhat neutral solution to the issue of Marco’s nationality would be that he was Venetian either because he was born in Korcula when it was still part of Venice, or because he was born in Venice although descended from Croatian parents.


 * That's not acceptable. The Battle of Curzola involved 95 Venetian ships, with thousands of men and 7.000 prisoners: were they all born in Curzola? There are documents that attest the presence of Polo family in Venice since the 11th century, well before any document in Korcula, and there are today thousands of Polo in Venice and in the Veneto. Furthermore if the Milione reported that Marco Polo was born in Venice, there'd be no reason to discuss: unfortunately it reports that he was Venetian, and that he and his mother were living in Venice when his father Niccolò was away in Constantinople and then in his first voyage to China. Then we know from other chroniclers that his grandfather lived in Venice and that the family had long lived there. Your "rewrite" is giving undue weight to a minority theory that is not generally accepted. GhePeU 21:29, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * By all means make an OBJECTIVE revision to my suggested rewrite that includes a more thorough explanation of the Venetian origin evidence. Please refrain from writing an article section that's end goal is to disprove the Curzola theories.  An encyclopedia is about laying out the facts, not debating them.  That is why your section was 'butchered' as you call it.  --Searchmaven 21:46, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Ramusio, first biographer of Marco Polo: "I find that Messer Andrea Polo of San Felice had three sons, the first of whom was Messer Marco, the second Maffio, the third Nicolo. The two last were those who went to Constantinople first, and afterwards to Cathay, as has been seen. Messer Marco the elder being dead, the wife of Messer Nicolo who had been left at home with child, gave birth to a son, to whom she gave the name of Marco in memory of the deceased, and this is the Author of our Book." From the Travels: "and from thence [Niccolò and Maffio] went on to Venice, where Niccolò Polo found that his wife, whom he had left with child at his departure, was dead, after having been delivered of a son, who received the name of Marco"; so we know that Marco lived in Venice in the family house when Niccolò comes back from his voyage. As I cited before a Polo family resided in Venice since the 11th century, and we know as well that Marco's grandfather resided in the Parish of San Felice, that after his voyage Marco went back to Venice and that after having been released he lived in Venice until his death. The only link with Curzola is the battle, but as I wrote thousands of men fought there, so it's hardly proof of its birth i the island. And these are not my opinion, these are the majority of Polo's biographer opinions, and none of the most ancient, and closer to his life, mentions his birth in Curzola. GhePeU 00:55, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Third Opinion: Ok, simply to have one sentence quoting a reliable historian (such as Gilman or HH Hart, who also proposes a Croatian theory) saying that Polo may have been born in Korcula (which was then part of Venice) and his ancestors may have been Dalmatians is ok. However, having long dialogue on it such as "Croatia celebrates Polo; Croatian prime minister said Polo was Croat," is pushing the POV a little too much. Make a brief sentence (it is preferable to avoid Croat sources at this point for neutrality safety) in the form of "Some historians such as, Historian A and Historian B suggest Polo may have been born on Korcula, an island in modern day Croatia, which was then part of Venice, and he may have had Dalmatian ancestors" Fix it up to be more exact, put it in, and that's it. Don't give WP:NPOV to a small theory by having it fill up more than a sentence. Most importantly, don't put your analysis such as "Marco Polo's origin is an object of common debate. There are two historical view points in this matter." Is there really a huge debate on it or is it just a few separate opinions? That's the question that you can't answer. Bulldog123 11:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Marco Polo was born: either in Venice or in Korčula (Curzola). We do not know.
 * If Marco Polo was born in Korčula he may very well have been a Croat (not necessarily but possibly), since the vast majority of Korčula's citizens were Croats (and are), some were italianized (to varying degrees), most weren't, but the number of ethnic Italians was very small indeed, this is beyond dispute. It is well to remember we are not talking about Zadar (Zara) here, but a Dalmatian island. The islands were, as is well known, subjected to a vastly smaller amount of italianization and had MUCH less ethnic Italian residents than the coastal cities. I am (of course) not saying he was a Croat, in fact he probably wasn't, but the dispute is valid and must be acknowledged in the article. DIREKTOR 13:28, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Polo familly was Pol familly from Korcula (Croatia). Their coat of arms was - 3 water birds. It is well known fact. In Croatian dialect spoken in Dalmatia this water bird was called ČURLIN or POL. Marco Polo's original subscription was MARC POL, not Polo! No data about Polo family in Venice before coming of members of Pol (Polo) family. Maybe this sounds like some heavy POV, but the point is that POV is already recorded in history books and people don't like too many changes. Zenanarh 13:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * All right, I am not very leardned in the life of Marko Polo. All I'm saying is we should accept all possibilities and include them in the article. I'm not saying he was necessarily Venetian or Croatian. As far as I know his ethnicity is not known for certain. DIREKTOR 15:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, I'd like someone to please take another stab at an objective suggested rewrite for the origing debate section that takes into account all that has been said in this section of the talk. Ghepeu and I weren't able to come to a consensus it seems. --Searchmaven 17:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

The wives of Marco Polo
Well, one of them, in any case. I was going through a local magazine, when I found an article (it's in Serbian, cyrilic) which said that Marco Polo was married to one of Kublai Khan's daughters, princess Hao-Dong (that was the name given in the article). The article goes on saying how the oriental princess wasn't well accepted in Venice, and how she took her own life after Marco had been captured in 1298, by the Genovese (and the princess lied to by Polo's sister, Lucia, that Marco had been killed). However, the wiki article on Kublai Khan has no mention of her (nor, if I'm not mistaken, any of the Khan's children), and the same goes for wiki's Marco Polo article. Now, I'm willing to dismiss this as a romantic fib, but the article went further, saying that a female skeleton in oriental garbs was found when renovating the Malibran (sp?) theater. Not only that, but she had the crest/coat of arms of Kublai Khan. Do any of the Italian (from Venice would be perfect ;) ) users know anything about this? And, did Kublai Khan (and Khans in general) use crests or any other form of heraldry? 77.46.252.189 09:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Croatian, again+ the Map of the journey
The Croatian spelling for Polo's name should be deleted from the open section as there are no reasonable evidence for polo being a Croatian. More, the map of the journey is written with the Croatian alphabet -it should be changed also. --Gilisa 18:40, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'm no longer objecting to count Polo as a Croatian as I'm not into details and there is a chance that he truly been.--Gilisa 18:46, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

mo like ethnicity controwhatevery amirite
The "Ethnicity controversy" section needs to be substantiated. Currently it just states by fiat that there is a controversy and that each of two sides has an approximately equal number of supporters. I personally find this very difficult to believe, and after reading this talk page, I can see that it's a systematic vandalism of the page by apparent Croatian nationals. I find this to be akin to the "controversy" over whether the moon landing in 1969 was real or not, the "controversy" over whether Jesus was from Africa or not, and the "controversy" over whether George Washington and Adam Weishaupt were the same person. --76.224.92.141 19:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)


 * You know, its pretty funny. Up until a week ago I thought such wild history revisionism only existed in the pages of Afrocentric books; you know the whole "Greeks were black, Romans were black, Egyptians were black, Jesus was black, Shakespeare was black, Einstein was black, everybody who ever did anything of note was black, etc, etc." I was totally unware that we now have generation of Eastern Blocentrics too trying to "take" historical figures from the west or whatever this is supposed to be. I mean we actually now have the need for Wikipedia article on the Birthplace of Marco Polo, it seems so cultish to me, but whatever its funny... only on here could we have something as ridiculous as that. - Gennarous (talk) 03:16, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Comments page
This is out of sequence, but I'll paste it here. There was a "comments" subpage of this page, but all it said was "needs inline citations plange 02:17, 30 July 2006 (UTC)" - Killiondude (talk) 23:15, 7 July 2009 (UTC)