Talk:Marcus Trescothick

Cricinfo attribution
This page is more or less lifted from www.cricinfo.com; I think that site should be given as the source until someone can rewrite the page. Onocrotalus 15:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree that it's lifted from Cricinfo. However, the link to Cricinfo should certainly be listed as a Reference not an External link, so I've changed the section heading. Stephen Turner (Talk) 21:47, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

'Unspecified reasons'
Duncharris: if there are 'numerous sources' then cite them. Repeatedly introducing unsourced negative information into biographies of living people amounts to vandalism. --ⁿɡ͡b Nick Boalch \ talk 12:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Trescothick's Depresssion
There are plenty of reliable sources which confirm that Trescothick has been suffering from depression indeed he has admited this himself:. It is important to state this both for accuracy and also to show that there is no need for obfuscation on the nature of the man's mental illness - any more than there would be if we were writing about a physical rather than a mental ailment. Stephen Parnell 07:36, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Improvement drive
This page needs some major reorganising, it is unstructured, suggest copy the Paul Collingwood article ROxBo 14:16, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I did that off my own 'bat'!, have now read your comment, seems we agree entirely. Having seen the good work done on Paul Collingwood, I took that as a sensible structure for this article. I've reorganised the material, removed duplicate information, cited some more things, albeit mostly from cricinfo, and generally given the article an overhaul.

It should be possible to get a decent article out of this! MDCollins (talk) 14:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems to be coming along okay SGGH speak! 16:16, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Glad you think so, I'm back now so will work on it some more - I think I'm in danger of expanding too much, but we can always trim it later. Currently working on the International history, but will need some domestic background too. Plus some pretty tables etc. –MDCollins (talk) 23:45, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I can get plenty of domestic info from a couple of recent matches (I watched him get 7 the other week, hence the photos, but I am concerned that the recovery at domestic level may start to warp into an international return section as he has been put back in the squad. It is difficult to carry on talking about his domestic playing when, chronologically, the article has gone into his international. Though not everything needs to be included at this stage. It is well cited and written so far though. Maybe we should grab a peer review to see what else might come up? SGGH speak! 20:32, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * As far as I am concerned, I agree that it is now becoming well written, the refs are being added as we go too. I'm not sure we'll gain much from peer review at the moment - we'd be better off filling in the blanks - just detailing the history before the first international call-up, and finishing off the international section. It will probably end up being too long, but then we can trim until the balance is found. (I know that when starting the international history section I have gone into too much detail of the early matches, not realising the space required for 7 years worth!).


 * As for the sections, may I propose the following:
 * Personal life and pre-Somerset first team (if there is much - early club cricket etc)
 * Somerset career up to England debuts
 * England career to illness
 * Illness detailing removal from International squad
 * Domestic cricket take 2
 * International cricket take 2 if it happens!


 * We can see how this fresh call up develops, if nothing comes of it, it won't need more than a cursory mention in the domestic section. If he does play, then whole caboodle can move into international - "Trescothick regained his place after being called up into the squad for the Twenty20 World Cup etc..."


 * Have a look at this to see how much it has improved. Its immense! Let's flesh out the middle and see how it looks. –MDCollins (talk) 22:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds good, I agree. I hope we can keep the section titles that exist so far as they are because I think they are quite good. SGGH speak! 11:32, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * What the, Matt Prior playing for England with Trescothick? what is that? It seems to be England, but Prior debuted this year with his 126!? I have also expanded the early domestic career section a little bit. I wonder, should we combine the early career/personal life part with the early domestic career part? Because the early personal life section contains soem domestic and early cricketing career information. Notable the mentioning of his under-19s career. Also, I still think a peer-review might be helpful, not really from a cricketing point of view but from a wikipedia article and MoS point of view. It can't hurt? I won't go for it unless you agree though. I have also shorted the early parts of the international section after reading your comment that "I know that when starting the international history section I have gone into too much detail of the early matches" what do you think? :) SGGH speak! 15:10, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Good trimming. Go for a peer review if you like - as you say it can't do any harm. Not sure about merging those two sections, keep it in mind and let's see whether they are expanded enough to stand on their own.


 * Prior did indeed make his Test debut this year, his ODI debut was in 2004 v Zimbabwe. He was on the 2005-6 tour to Pakistan (as a batsman) - played a few 3/4 day warm up games but didn't do enough to secure a place in the Test team. Then left out of the 2006 champions trophy squad and not called up until this year. –MDCollins (talk) 09:57, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Tables
I used this spot to construct those two tables, they are done now. I dunno how you feel about the two paragrapsh of stats, they can go if you like I just compiled them quickly. Tables look good though don't you think? SGGH speak! 19:25, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Nice tables. Not sure the stats are necessary really, I'll move them to here for now. The trouble with those are that they will always be changing, and therefore need constant updating as well as citing the date the stats are taken from, it's not so bad in tables where they are in one source, but it would be quite a lot of work. Any major ones could possibly be incorporated into the prose if they warrant it. (Be careful that you spell Trescothick correctly, and use the apostrophe in Trescothick's!)–MDCollins (talk) 10:19, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I was typing rather quickly to get through it all, then got called away before I could spell check :D SGGH speak! 15:16, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Stats (removed from article)
Of Trescothicks 123 ODI matches, he has batted second on 120 occasions, and while batting first his average is 34.56, when batting second it rises to 41.08. He averages 45.80 in all matches that England have won, and 32.83 in those they have lost, and his lowest average is in matches that end in a draw, 21.50. Trescothich has averaged 23.20 during his Cricket World Cup matches, with a highscore of 58, and he averages 52.62 in the ICC Champions Trophy. In his England ODI career, he has scored the most runs (2211) at the lowest average (31.58) in ODI series ending in defeat, and again has his highest average (54.28) in tied series. Trescothicks highest average per cricket ground over more than one ODI matches stands at 79.50 at Beausejour Cricket Ground in the West Indies. His least successful ODI is Durban in South Africa.

In test cricket, Trescothick averages fluctuate from 44.97 to 26.07 through the 4 possible innings, peaking in the 2nd at 54.80. He has won 37 of the test matches he has played in, average the highest in these at 47.60. He has played in 8 matches where England have won by an innings, and he averages 81.25 in these. However his high score of 219 came when chasing a target, where he normally averages 41.48. His highest test average of 93.80 came in the summer of 2002 across 4 matches,with his lowest of 26.10 coming the following winter. Trescothick has the highest batting average over more than one match at Edgbaston, standing at 67.00. In contrast, his lowest average is 22.00 at Iqbal Stadium, Faisalabad. ''

Location
This sentence:

"Trescothick has the dubious honour of being Glenn McGrath's 500th, and Shane Warne's 600th Test victim."

Seems out of place in its current location, like a line of trivia wedged into the article, should we not link it to a chronological place in the article? For instance "in August 2006 (or whenever), Trescothick had the dubious honour of being Glenn McGrath's 500th, and Shane Warne's 600th Test victim." SGGH speak! 16:18, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. Will need referencing anyway. –MDCollins (talk) 00:06, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * July 05 for McGrath
 * August 05 for Warne :
 * It should also change victim to wicket, as 600th victim implies 600 different players, whereas wickets accounts for the multiples. –MDCollins (talk) 00:09, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * All done, thanks SGGH speak! 14:44, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Infobox
Do you think we should merge the 1st class and international infoboxes like they have at Paul Collingwood? SGGH speak! 16:54, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Not if we can help it, I think it looks terrible! It was an anon ip that made the change, I've posted a question at WT:CRIC to see if anybody actually agrees with the merge. Not only does it make it harder to edit, I don't like the way it obscures the section breaks. Also it is incorrect in that it divides the domestic career into List A and First Class - obviously the First Class stats contain the Test Match information so the heading should actually be International and Domestic combined! –MDCollins (talk) 09:51, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Tis true. SGGH speak! 11:46, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * User:Johnlp has suggested that the Collingwood edit should be reverted and mentioned that the First Class summary box may be omitted until the end of a career- in most cases this would be true, but in aiming for FA for a current player it would be nice. –MDCollins (talk) 22:02, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Hundreds
" the "belligerent" batsman scored his second consecutive ODI hundred" does that mean his first ever ODI hundred was in the previous match? Or that this was his second set of consecutive ODI hundreds (i.e. he had hit two consecutive ODI tons before) SGGH speak! 23:12, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No, it just means two consecutive hundreds, not that it was his 'second hundred' - just two on the trot. - can't think how to express it better at the moment. –MDCollins (talk) 10:02, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I just put "he scored two consecutive hundreds" SGGH speak! 16:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Which would be fine if they were both in the Champions Trophy (the first was in the amazing Natwest Final against India) - i've had another go. –MDCollins (talk) 21:59, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oooh I see. I'm following you now. How about something like "scored consecutive One Day match hundreds in the Natwest Final and then the Champions trophy" SGGH speak! 09:47, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Next step
Peer review wasn't too helpful you were right! What's the next step? SGGH speak! 20:11, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry - completely missed the peer review!! The thing we need to do now is fill the gap around the 2002/3 ashes (still - keep meaning to do it) and read through the article very very carefully. Having just had a failed FAC with another article it is so important to read what is there rather than what you think you wrote! If we can track down a cricketing fan or two prepared to finely copy edit this will help immensely.
 * Have begun a copy edit, some pronouns are missing. Must have been knocked off during editing by accident SGGH speak! 21:16, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The section from "captaincy --> computer game release" at the end of the 2006 section seems like a bundled together collection of trivia, I'm trying to work out a way to lessen this feeling, I'm sure you'll think of one. SGGH speak! 21:45, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Will have a go tomorrow. –MDCollins (talk)
 * Cool, I did a copy edit yesterday too, hope you found the changes helpful. SGGH speak! 15:50, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep thanks. Have finished the gaps, have a read through the expanded 2003–6 section. Will now check through the rest, although its pretty good I think. Have re-requested peer review. –MDCollins (talk) 11:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

`

Possible error
"His batting technique has been likened to that of former England captains Graham Gooch and David Gower" - That struck me as odd so I had a read of the source. From cricinfo "he is described by Nasser Hussain as a left-handed Gooch, but his ease on the big stage and his blazing one-day strokeplay are just as reminiscent of David Gower." Now to my mind that compares his stroke play not his technique to Gower. He is very reminisent of Gooch in technique - both classic biffers - but the only comparison I can make with Gower is that they are both left handed and look to score freely. --LiamE 22:07, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well spotted, I've tried to address this but feel free to have a better go (expanding from the source). I did think of removing it all together but I think that comparisons with other players is useful for context. –MDCollins (talk) 22:24, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

quiet
Quiet for a while, how is it coming? What do you think about GA? Step on the road to FA. SGGH speak! 18:07, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry - been busy with the new infobox. In my experience it isn't worth bothering with GA - it would almost certainly pass, and there is a large backlog there. I'll try and have another look in the next couple of days, but I am away next week, so wouldn't be able to help with all the problems. Can you request copy editing at WP:LOCE - that should help. –MDCollins (talk) 10:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Will do SGGH speak! 14:44, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Going through a few copyedits and proof reads along with Red Gown who's been working hard! :) SGGH speak! 23:08, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Length
Hi, I noticed that this article was up for GA nomination. It's generally well written - I've just done a copy edit for about half of the article - but length is the major problem right now. There's a lot of unnecessarily specific information there right now - for example, too much on his performances in warm-ups and too much description of events in matches. I'll see what I can do over the next few days to cut it down. Damanmundine1 11:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, it is appreciated SGGH speak! 15:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I've cut it down a fair bit now, don't think it needs too much more. Its length is now a bit less than the Adam Gilchrist article, which made it to FA, so that shouldn't be too much of a problem anymore. Hopefully what I did has helped :)Damanmundine1 11:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

FAC
Is it ready? GA is seemingly never going to get around to it. SGGH speak! 10:07, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Forget GA! I've come back after a while off and given it a thorough nit-pick. As a result, I've copyedited the article, and therefore am ready. –MDCollins (talk) 12:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, let's go for it SGGH speak! 16:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

...Failed - not sure why, was it a time issue (14 days)? or just the lack of people commenting then not checking to see if the work has been done and saying 'support'? Don't know what the next stage is, the article is surely not that far off - nobody said no anyway. Is a quick tidy up and re nomination all that is necessary? –MDCollins (talk) 09:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know, it had one support and a load of comments, some of which would have turned to support as all the issues were addressed. I don't understand that one, perhaps message the closing user? SGGH speak! 09:53, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It was the gimmebot, which is why I thought it was a time issue. I'll see if we can re-open it for a minute. We need to chase up the commenters (politely badger them for 'support'. Perhaps message a couple of WP:CRIC users (Tintin, Binguyen etc) to see what they can add to the discussion.–MDCollins (talk) 10:03, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Good idea, make a question on the FAC talk page asking why it was closed, and ask to be reopened because we essentially had about 3 or 4 support votes as all the issues had been dealt with. I know it sounds like I'm not going to do anything myself but a) I am drowning in Uni work and b) my laptop is bust! Will be fixed by this weekend so I'll get on it then. SGGH speak! 11:10, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Congrats, MdCollins! SGGH speak! 09:31, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Well done! –MDCollins (talk) 23:02, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

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FAR
I reviewed the article for the Unreviewed featured articles/2020 drive and found the following problems, which if not addressed will mean the article goes for a Featured Article Review.

Desertarun (talk) 22:18, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * There are 14 cites in the lead
 * The Early years section contains a very long paragraph
 * Split. Harrias  (he/him) • talk 09:37, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
 * There are citation needed tags
 * Cleared with appropriate citations added. Harrias  (he/him) • talk 09:37, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The later county career section contains a very long paragraph
 * The 2009 Champions League Twenty20 section contains a long quote that isn't directly attributed
 * The post playing career section is just one sentence and needs expanding
 * The honours section is a list which should be turned into prose
 * I've started looking at this, but won't have much time over the next few days. Harrias  (he/him) • talk 09:37, 24 February 2023 (UTC)