Talk:Mardi Gras/Archive 2

It's that time of year again-this article may need it's yearly semi-protection soon
Every year about this time (Mardi Gras 2013 is now less than 3 weeks away) this page experiences escalating vandalism, mostly by IPs. I've been here for roughly 4 yrs now, and every year it eventually needs semi-protection. I am not asking for it yet, but if any admins are watching this page, please feel free to step in with the required meausures any time in the next three weeks if you notice said escalation of vandalism. Many thanks and Happy Mardi Gras from South Louisiana!  He  iro 20:51, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Just to start the count, we've had 3 instances from 2 IPs in the last few hours, one page blanking just since I started this thread.  He  iro 22:01, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

It says to Lafayette...
But Southeast Texans also celebrate Mardi Gras, including with a parade, King cake, etc. Perhaps it should be updated to include this information? — Preceding unsigned comment added by LiquidAngerMD (talk • contribs) 16:26, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * That line is about places with early French heritage. You should see Mardi Gras in the United States, which has a quite a bit more about Texas town that celebrate Mardi Gras.  He  iro 16:37, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Merge
Let me quote from the previous discussion: "Oppose Maybe in some parts of the world, but around here, we celebrate Mardi Gras & have never heard of Carnival" - Yet this articles contains a section on Carnival in Germany where Mardi Gras as such is completely unknown, and Fastnachtsdienstag is only a (minor) part of Carnival.

The identical case can be made about another comment: "Object to merge I object as well. Mardi Gras "Fat Tuesday" is a day WITHIN a season (Carnival) and has it's own identity." And part of the third: "they are sufficiently distinct enough to warrant discrete articles."

In fact, the only argument ("tangentially related") which is based on the actual article was made by User:L0b0t and can be easily dismissed. This should either be merged or seriously overhauled. As it is, the merge debate has almost no relation to the actual article.

What a joke. --79.223.26.45 (talk) 20:19, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 12 February 2013
The celebration of Mardi Gras in Germany is called Karneval, Fastnacht, or Fasching, depending on the region. Fastnacht means "Eve of the Fast", but all three terms cover the whole carnival season with famous parades held in Cologne, Mainz, and Düsseldorf on the Monday before Ash Wednesday, called Rosenmontag (Rose Monday).

In the regions where Fastnacht is celebrated, the Tuesday before Ash Wednesday is called "Schmotziger Dunnschtig" (Schmotziger Dienstag) which is a staight translation from Mardi Gras (Greasy, fatty Tuesday).

Request: Please delete the last paragraph (starting with "In the regions where Fastnacht is celebrated...) from this article as it's not relevant to "Mardi Gras". The description is incorrect. The Tuesday before Ash Wednesday is not called "Schmutziger Dienstag". There is no such thing as "schmotziger Dienstag". This has been confused with "Schmutziger Donnerstag", which indeed exists. It falls on the Thursday of the week preceding "Mardi Gras". "Schmotziger Dunnschtig" is southern German dialect for standard German: "schmutziger Donnerstag" (literally: "Dirty Thursday"). Evidence 1: I'm from Southern Germany and would know ;-) Evidence 2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_Thursday

Nosuchuser (talk) 10:17, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree to the request, the mistake with tuesday instead of thursday made me create an account on Wikipedia. The "schmutziger Donnerstag" is the beginning of the actual Fastnacht-week in Southwest Germany. Thursday not Tuesday! I'm from Southern Germany as well. 136.244.68.180 (talk) 16:09, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Vaca  tion  9  03:24, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

no mention of france?
Come on, we all know wikipedia is biased towards america, but seriously, its a french tradition, celebrated in france, and originating in france, its beyond the pale, insulting, and actually embarrassing, that there is no mention of the celebration in france. I would edit it myself but Americans have been editing out references to france in 'unbiased' wikipedia...... I was actually deleted from wikipedia by one of those American super users. Sure this is American propaganda to feel good about their crumbling empire, but you cant just ignore history. And for the record, no Im not French. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.207.188.112 (talk) 11:37, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Greece
Apokrea an Orthodox Christian Carnival. No mention? I'll leave it up to the experts to write one up, but please do not leave it out. Scott Anafas (talk) 12:44, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Recommended addition
Other cities famous for Mardi Gras celebrations include... May I recommend adding Nice, France's two-week carnival ending on Shrove Tuesday? ☺ Dick Kimball (talk) 17:23, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

A Tale of Two Cities

In 1859 the novel A Tale of Two Cities was published and immediately became one of Charles Dickens’s biggest hits. It was a fictional novel focused around the French Revolution. The purpose behind what Dickens explores was to try another way at understanding what really was going on during the time of the French Revolution. The time period from 1837 through 1901 was known as the Victorian Era after the queen of Great Britain. The Victorian Era was a time of rapid change consisting of improvements trailing with disappointments, proving yin always hangs a yang. “It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...” summarizing the whole era, this is the now famous quote Dickens started A Tale of Two Cities with. During this era they took on the transition of a man owning land society to an urban, industrialization society. Dickens makes you think differently about the emotions and thoughts of the ones who witnessed the era by the way he presents it. The Victorian Age was a time of concern mainly for social affairs, economics, human justice, politics and religion. Throughout the novel Dickens takes turns and twists to help philosophize the era and its importance. Using symbolism and foreshadowing, Dickens shows social oppression, irony, arrogance, resurrection, sacrifice and the color red. Memory is a driving force Dickens uses throughout the novel, implementing destruction or hope/faith, “It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...”. England and France had multiple concerns in the late seventeenth century while going through such fast changes. Political confusion between the two during this time caused one of the most disturbing times in history. Violence was their attempt to problem solving, not learning the outcomes, they continue their destruction. Violence was a main concern of the audience of “A Tale of Two Citites” due to the violent society that was created, destroying itself it also took away the meaning of humanity and life. Dickens explains multiple examples of the violence and inhuman acts that were happening, coated with gruesome and memorable details. Taking place during the French Revolution, blood was a common aspect. Blood was everywhere all the time, Dinkens making it known, he uses blood as foreshadowing. There was a scene where wine had been spilt out of a barrel and the people all went crazy for the dirty wine that had already touched the ground. This was to show what was to come, and how the people will react when it does. Dickens had wrote, “The raggedest nightcap, awry on the wretchedest head, had this crooked significance in it: ‘I know how hard it has grown for me, the wearer of this, to support life in myself; but do you know how easy it has grown for me, the wearer of this, to destroy life in you?'”. Humans growing on habits, this passage was to explain that once one murders, its easier the second time. Getting used to the emotional and mental feeling, killing became more comfortable because of habit. Even seeing blood could become the habit. You seen it not often you think of it as gross scary, you see it everyday everywhere, one may become comfortable with it. To murder is inhuman, it changes you and who you are mentally causing you to become the real victim. Fighting fire with fire, something still till this day that is failed to understand. The political concerns during the time were intense and drastic. Dickens sends a messages to his readers when the character Alexandre Manette is introduced. Alexandra Manette was wrongly imprisoned and sentenced to Bastille in France. Unjustly wasting his time there he had lost his spirits, his peace his happiness, everything he felt that was right, was now thought of as wrong, he had died in the inside. Robbed of his freedom and justice he had lost himself. Forcefully given the consequences of a crime he had not committed, his mind was driven insane. After a long 18 innocent years spent in prison Manette was proven to be wrongly imprisoned. Eighteen years stolen from a gift given to us all shows the inequality that was going on during this time. Manette was then “recalled to life” meaning another chance, another opportunity to live to the fullest. The character Lucie Manette, Alexandre daughter, was next introduced as a blessing for to her father. Being the daughter of Alexandre gave him another reason, another memory, another purpose to why living now is worth every minute. Lucie had brought her father back to health and sanity with her love, life, youth and relation. Manette gave Lucie the blessing of life and she didn’t fail to do the same for him. This part of the novel showed me that the political problems were severe during this time and change needed was obvious. Along with the bad events that occured you also realize the good that had came out of it. Manette should have never been imprisoned nor should he have lost those 18 year of his life and freedom but with that happening he now has the privilege to being happier then he ever has. Because of the time he had spent wrongly imprisoned he now knows the feelings of sadness, angry and death, making him capable of being happier, more caring and lively. The love of his daughter shows the power a relationship can hold. Proving again that there is always a yin with the yang. The main concerns of the audience of “The Tail of Two Cities” is still some of the concerns that people struggle with to this day. Dickens shows violence, resurrections, injustice, love and hope in multiple different ways to help explain one message. Our history is crucially important and it is needed to learn from. The world is always advancing, looking for the better way, the next step, improving. Making discoveries and advances is not always bad, but what isn’t understood, is when its time to stop. Dickens has a wonderful way of showing the parallels of personal to political, proving that everything and everyone is intertwined, the good and the bad.

Citations — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.35.107.113 (talk) 00:13, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Section about Germany is entirely unrelated
THe section about Germany discusses the Thursday the week before Mardi Gras. Mardi Gras itself is Veilchendienstag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.204.83.204 (talk) 09:36, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 February 2016
I would like to edit the part Czech republic, in which the term "Czechia" is used. I would like it to be changed to "Czech republic", as Czechia is not an official term and not even commonly used one. It has been proposed many times that the term will be officialy used, but the majority of the population dissaprove and think it should not be used.

Jakub Hlaváček (talk) 21:31, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. --allthefoxes (Talk)  22:18, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

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Clarification needed regarding religious denominations
At present, this is the opening sentence:

Mardi Gras (/ˈmɑːrdiɡrɑː/), also called Shrove Tuesday,[1] or Fat Tuesday,[2][3][4][5][6] in English, refers to events of the Carnival celebrations, beginning on or after the Christian feasts of the Epiphany (Three King's Day) and culminating on the day before Ash Wednesday.

In my country, Bulgaria, we have observance of Epiphany, but no Ash Wednesday, and certainly no carnivals - we do have Kukeri, but they seem completely unrelated to me. And Orthodox practices are not mentioned anywhere in the article. So I think it should be clarified that this is a Western Christian festival, like it's done in Ash Wednesday's page. I'm not making the change because I'm not well-versed in folk and Christian traditions, and there may be parallels between these traditions, of which I'm unaware. 91.212.132.36 (talk) 10:07, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 March 2016
The section about Mardi Gras in Germany actually refers to celebrations taking place on the Thursday of Carneval, thus not on the eponymous Tuesday. The Tuesday of Carneval is called Faschingsdienstag in Germany.

2A02:8071:29F:BF00:3C85:AEB7:CFE9:B208 (talk) 23:34, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Ter r a  ❤ 05:47, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Historical origins
The article says, "Mardi Gras is French for 'Fat Tuesday', reflecting the practice of the last night of eating richer, fatty foods before the ritual fasting of the Lenten season." Unfortunately, this one sentence is the only information presented in the entire article on the historical origins of the day. The article doesn't mention when or where this practice originated, how the day has evolved over time, whether it originated around the same time as Lent—hell, when Lent even originated. Did the Church come up with it early on, or later on…and how long after that was it before Mardi Gras/Fat Tuesday/Shrove Tuesday/Pancake Tuesday arose? Also, did the Church sanction or encourage pre-Lenten gluttony, oppose it, or remain silent on the subject? Did this day have its roots in the Church, other than being merely a reaction to the impending fasting? This article can be massively improved. allixpeeke (talk) 08:48, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Origin
This does not give a true history of the origin and the claim that Mardi Gras is a Christian holiday is not true. The only reason Mardi Gras has any association with Christianity is because back when European decide it would be more productive to governor the masses under one church, Rome decide it would be easier to convert Pageants to Christianity if they incorporated some of the more celebrated holidays of paganism into their new Christian practice. Dia Holmes (talk) 20:38, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
 * This article does not give much of an explanation for its origins, but if you want to find WP:RELIABLE sources to WP:CITE and expand on the origins, please be our guest. But since you seem to be rather new (as this is your only edit), please feel free to read up on those policy guidelines bluelinked in my previous sentence.  He  iro 21:35, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

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United States
According to Carnival, Mardi Gras is the US equivalent of Carnival. Why does this article not explicitly state so? Marcocapelle (talk) 21:50, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * It does so in the very first sentence.  He  iro 22:52, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Flashing image
Seems to run afoul of WP:GRATUITOUS: "Per the Foundation, controversial images should follow the principle of 'least astonishment': we should choose images that respect the conventional expectations of readers for a given topic as much as is possible without sacrificing the quality of the article". --Neil N  talk to me 15:57, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't mind seeing a better image more representative of the day if there was consensus by other editors here for swapping this one out. But I do object to an IP edit warring to censor an image they personally do not like, with so far no communication other than their original "I don't like it" edit summary.  He  iro 16:04, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
 * IP was blocked, but is now socking here  (geolocates to same geographic region) and has not yet deemed to give us a visit here even while mentioning this discussion in their BS edit summary as they reverted a 5th time.   He  iro  04:25, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

I will be removing the image. There was no prior consensus I could find and the practice isn't even described in the prose. --Neil N  talk to me</i> 01:34, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Merge with Shrove Tuesday
This was previously discussed in 2007. However, perhaps this could be tried again? What makes this article anything else than Shrove Tuesday in French-speaking countries, under the common name of Mardi Gras? And is that really needed as a separate article? Wouldn't it after all be more convenient with a more collected overview? PPEMES (talk) 11:07, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose. These are two articles in good standing with pretty large content. The topic here is not the date on the religious calendar (which is common among various countries) but the profane traditions, which have significant variations among places. There are many other cases where several local traditions related to the same calendar event have separate articles, such as Fat Thursday and Tsiknopempti, Slavic carnival/Maslenitsa or Candlemas/Candlemas Day/Presentation of Jesus at the Temple/Groundhog Day. Place Clichy (talk) 12:54, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose. IMHO "Mardi Gras" as celebrated among others in French-speaking countries including Louisiana, but also (under the name "carnaval") in Brazil, is a carnival with parades and costumes, which has little to do other than the date with the "Pancake Day" aka "Shrove Tuesday" of England, Ireland, etc. Maybe some of the decriptions of carnivals of various countries, which at the present are listed under Shrove Tuesday, should be moved to this page. I think that linking the pages both ways is a good idea, but that they should be kept separate. Tonymec (talk) 16:21, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The celebrations associated with Shrove Tuesday and Mardi Gras are quite different, even though they are based on the same day in the church calendar. Keeping them separate enriches both. Bermicourt (talk) 18:54, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 February 2021
introductory text regarding the Julian calendar says "which the Romans used at this time" - more accurately should say "which the Romans adopted in 45BCE" Steve263 (talk) 11:24, 17 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Yes check.svg Done. Volteer1 (talk) 13:44, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 March 2021
American celebrations are surprisingly overrepresented in this article and no mention is made of Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras which started in the '70s protesting for the decriminalisation of homosexuality and freedom from associated prejudices. Please add it under the Traditions heading as the (alphabetically) first subheading, "Australia" with the lede from that article (or similar, if you want). Thanks! 49.180.53.6 (talk) 23:29, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made (Wikipedia is not a reliable source); and please provide the exact text you'd want to suggest. We need to give due weight to all options. A single festival in one city seems to be WP:UNDUE. Agree that the American bits need a wee bit of trimming. Also mardi gras has been going on since far earlier than the 1970s; so a particular variant dating from that time is unlikely to be worthy of explicit mention. In fact, it's probably wiser if we trim most of the section, focus on the most significant bits (that would seem to be, WP:BIAS concerns notwithstanding, the New Orleans one) and summarise the rest; instead of allowing this to become a WP:INDISCRIMINATE listing of every variant (an independent list article can do that better) RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:17, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
 * There is a reason the Sydney event isn't featured prominently here, see in the archives. The reasons being that it is not historically connected to the other celebration and does not even take place at the same time of year. For the same reasons we do not have "Christmas in July" discussed on the main Christmas page, but do have it mentioned in the "See also", just like this page.  He  iro  02:15, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
 * You guys are awesome. I think a See Also would work for the Mardi Gras that are not held simultaneously to improve interlinking and assist visitors in finding what they are interested in. But thanks for the explanation! 49.180.53.6 (talk) 02:31, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
 * It was already there, but I just updated the link. The article name should have been used, not a redirect. I'm not sure, mebbe the article name was changed at some point since it was added here? Anyway, updated.  He  iro  02:38, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

A topless woman at a coffee house,
This us gratuitous and not illustrative. It does not belong.

2603:8001:3846:2D00:49A2:1262:4E8F:8750 (talk) 23:08, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Incorrect information
The First Mardi Gras parade was in the 1600's in Mobile Al 2600:100D:B124:3B4:BA8E:7D6F:2ADC:1ACD (talk) 17:16, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Your statement is indeed incorrect, as Mardi Gras was hundreds of years old before Mobile was founded. -- Infrogmation (talk) 19:52, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Shrove Tuesday
Is it correct that Mardi Gras is also called Shrove Tuesday? 58.78.237.4 (talk) 06:30, 18 February 2023 (UTC)


 * It's literally in the first sentence of the article.  He  iro  16:56, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 January 2023
The article states "the Christian feasts of the Epiphany (Three Kings Day) and culminating on the day before Ash Wednesday, which is know as Shrove Tuesday."

These days are not Christian feasts; they are Catholic feasts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.127.133.181 (talk) 22:28, 20 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Agree. 2604:2D80:DE00:2300:0:0:0:BC99 (talk) 15:26, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Catholics are not the only Christians who celebrate Mardi Gras or a form of it.  He  iro  22:10, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Brazil?
Isn't one of the most world-famous Mardi Gras celebrations the Rio Carnival? It isn't even mentioned here. 104.187.53.82 (talk) 19:37, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 February 2024
Please remove the picture of the woman topless. I highly doubt this was consensual. Let people use their imagination. 2603:8001:CBF0:91C0:99A3:38F9:7EC6:5EFF (talk) 00:55, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

— Urro[ talk ] [ edits ] 17:34, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not censored
 * "I highly doubt" is original research
 * breasts are not shameful
 * topfreedom is egalitarian
 * if "remove X from WP; let people rely on their imagination" was applied unilaterally, it would be a disservice to visitors and oppose the entire purpose of an encyclopaedia which is to inform readers so that they don't need to imagine
 * the image accurately represents the topic being discussed
 * it is generally not illegal to take photographs in public places, even if there are people in those photographs, even if you haven't obtained their permission
 * the copyright holder has given their permission for its use here
 * 49.180.106.148 (talk) 02:55, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: See reasons above from 49.180.106.148. If you're passionate, consider establishing a consensus.

Semi-protected edit request on 11 February 2024
Change “Christian” to the correct “Catholic”. There are fundamental differences, especially in the North, Central and South America. 2600:1702:4E31:F400:189A:3B5F:DA1D:1CBD (talk) 22:17, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 22:47, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Text about Germany does not fit
The section about Germany does not fit because it is about the name given to the Thursday preceding Mardi Gras. As far as I know, there is no special name for Mardi Gras except "Faschingsdienstag". Monday before Mardi Gras is called "Rosenmontag". 195.145.170.166 (talk) 08:57, 12 February 2024 (UTC)