Talk:Maremmano-Abruzzese Sheepdog/Archive 1

Possible copyvio
I have sent email to thewestlord@yahoo.com, which is the email address on the page from which this came, asking whether they're the ones who posted it and release their copyright, or whether we need to remove it. So I'm letting this sit for a moment... Elf | Talk 03:48, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * OK, when I asked about whether OK to use under GFDL or PD, got this response:
 * Wikipedia .. you the best site ever.
 * feel free to use the text anyway you like it.
 * Linda ,
 * —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elf | Talk 15:49, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elf | Talk 15:49, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Rmoving copyvio notice AGAIN
see above. Elf | Talk 00:47, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
 * It is ridiculous to think that an editor's statement that they recieved an e-mail from the purported author is valid proof that copyright violations do not exist!

Original Use Section Cleanup
The Original Use section is not encyclopedia quality, referring specifically to the last line of "don't get me wrong-they bark". It also is packed full of sexist language. I will change these two without changing any of the actual content. Upon reading over the passage, I decided it would be best to remove the last line completely. I will paste it here so nobody has to bother with history if they think it should stay. "these dogs are great to have as a family pet but don't get me wrong-they bark." Sparkleiya 04:41, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Bravo
This article is now greatly improved, with new headers much better than mine. MGerety 22:03, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Thanks for stepping in to giving it a good rewrite :) AnmaFinotera 22:32, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

So-called copyright violation
A user who failed to login, and thus identify him or herself leaving only IP addresses, first claimed a lack of references and then labelled the previous version of this article a possible copyright violation. Before realizing that the user's objections were nonsense and that a user on that IP address had been cited for bogus edits, I rewrote the article so as to avoid any possible appearance of such a violation, relying on a number of academic articles including Drs. Coppinger at Hampshire College, the preeminent experts on livestock guarding dogs, as well as articles in Italian about this fabulous dog. i am personally quite familiar with this breed seeing them quite often in Abruzzo guarding their flocks of sheep. MGerety 03:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The user's claims were not bogus. Several parts of the previous version were copied almost word from word from the article on this breed at Dog Breed Info. AnmaFinotera 05:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Right. The florid description of the "standard" Maremma did take language from the that site, though very similar language is repeated in many kennel Club descriptions. Since biologists dispute breeding working dogs simply for appearance rather than behavioral characteristics that portion was not suitable at any rate. However, the remainder of the article especially that written about the dog's origins seemed original, in fact, the same IP user criticized it as possibly being "original research". I think it is not appropriate to delete photographs and then label ones restoration "vandalism" though the point on article length. Added headers as suggested MGerety 11:54, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Restoring photos that had been removed as a legitimate edit almost immediately after their removal with no justification or commentary and by passing the revert system does constitute a form a vandalism. If someone objected, they should have broached it on the talk page as the removal was properly justified to bring the article into proper compliance with Wikipedia policies. Also, OR can be applied if the article lacked citations, conclusions were drawn by combining multiple sources to make a new line of thought, etc. AnmaFinotera 22:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Pastore Abruzzese
I think this web site displays banner adds but itself is non-commercial.

MGerety 03:51, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


 * From the rough translation of the pages, it appears that they also sell puppies, which makes it commercial and non-neutral, unfortunately AnmaFinotera 04:30, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Photo Request
130.195.86.36 (talk) 02:38, 7 January 2008 (UTC) question re: photo request I have (original) photos of my Maremmas - can I send them to someone to review and post to this article? Regards, brian.a.lyall@gmail.com, 7 January 2008

Weight
How much do they weigh? Weight is mentioned indirectly but there is no actual weight range or average listed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.225.222.54 (talk) 03:42, 03 August 2006 (UTC)

maremma (maremmano-abruzzese ) versus Pastore Abruzzese
reference number 2 links to the site of Marco Petrella a breeder of pastore Abruzzese/Mastino Abruzzese, which is not the same dog as the maremmano-abruzzese (petrella lists the maremmano as one of the least typical subtypes of abruzzese dogs). The people of Abruzzi believe that their original Livestock Guardian dog is the "cane di pecora" a term which include the Pastore Abruzzese and Mastino Abruzzese, which are much larger than a maremmano-abruzzese. The Original Dog of Abruzzi is the Cane di pecora/Pastore Abruzzese/Mastino abruzzese which is NOT recognized by ENCI (the italian kennel club) although their recognition is being worked on. The Maremmano -Abruzzese is a creation of ENCI "experts" which years ago took abruzzese dogs and maremmanos (which are abruzzese dogs used in an area of Tuscany)and mixed them to create the maremmano-abruzzese breed. The Shepherds from Abruzzi do not regard the maremmano-Abruzzese as their original flock guardian. The Maremmano-Abruzzese however DOES work effectively as a livestock guardian dog (it is derived from substrains of the original pastore abruzzese/mastino abruzzese breed) but the original working dog is the Mastino Abruzzese/pastore Abruzzese/cane di pecora. Hope this rant helps clarify what dog is what. A similar thing can be said about the breed "Anatolian Shepherd" which is a creation of western dog breeders who were trying to bring the Kangal Dog of Turkey to the west. Turks have no idea what an "Anatolian Shepherd" is, and certainly do not think of it as a Turkish breed, however every Turk knows the Kangal Dog, which is the national dog of Turkey so to speak. same thing happened when Russians took central asian dogs and created the "central Asian ovtcharka" which would mean nothing to a Turkmen (the national dog of Turkmenistan is the Alabai) or a Kazak (the local breed of dog is the Tobet) or an Uzbek (their molosser is the Torkuz), but essentially the russians took Alabais, Tobets, Torkuzs added some other strains, mixed them together and now are marketing their creation as "Central Asian Ovtcharka" which is in fact a mixture of many things ....Hope this helps —Preceding unsigned comment added by Altes2009 (talk • contribs) 11:10, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually in the absence of sources backing this up, that's not much help. Fences  &amp;  Windows  14:56, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Breed name
Maremmano-Abruzzese Lorna Coppinger and Raymond Coppinger, the biologists who are the preeminent experts on Livestock Guarding Dogs describe the "breed" (a term the Coppingers question) as the Italian "Maremmano-Abruzzese " in their book "Dogs: A New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior and Evolution (2002), University of Chicago Press, ISBN 0226115631.  The Maremmano-Abruzzese being one of five or six dogs types involved in annual sheep migrations from highlands to lowlands common in many parts of the world.  Should this article be titled "Maremmano-Abruzzese"?  The Coppingers find that there is no valid distinction between dogs from the Tuscan Marremma and those from Abruzzo.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by MGerety (talk • contribs) 01:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Unless I this is a similar cousin this beautiful dog is also called a Pastore Abruzzese (Abruzzese Shepherd) at least in Avezzano, Italy (which is in Abruzzo). I had asked the locals what they call this stunning dog which I had never seen before.192.88.165.35 (talk) 17:06, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The correct name of this dog is "Cane da Pastore Maremmano-Abruzzese"; this is the name under which in 1958 the ENCI (Ente Nazionale della Cinofilia Italiana, the Italian dog-breeders association) combined the previous populations of Pastore Maremmano and Pastore Abruzzese dogs, and the name under which all such dogs must be registered. The ENCI argued that their frequent opportunities to meet and interbreed during the annual summer transhumance to the high Appennines (particularly AFTER, not before, the unification of Italy in 1860) had rendered them essentially a single breed. The move was and still is opposed by many in Abruzzo, who argue that 1) their dog is physically distinguishable (even I have no difficulty in recognising the dog in the picture as being of Abruzzese rather than Tuscan/Maremmano type) and 2) that the Maremmano has been ruined by breeding for looks, while the Abruzzese remains closer to its origins as a working dog. The Coppingers may be great authorities in their field, but they have no authority to pronounce on the correct name of a dog originating half-way round the world from them, and no status if they do so. The ENCI, for better or worse, is the official holder of the breed register, and determines the breed standard, the name, and which dogs should be admitted for registration. If anyone ever considers rewriting this awful article I will be happy to provide references for all this, all of which I believe has a place in the article, and a lot more too. I used to breed them. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:42, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Pastore Maremmano, Pastore Abruzzese or Pastore Maremmano-Abruzzese?
Large parts of this article as it stands appears to argue that the dog should not be called 'Maremmano' either in Italian or in English, probably because much of it is lifted from websites that make the same argument. The argument is real, but this is not the place for it. Here's some of what I wrote here earlier on the subject:

"The correct name of this dog is "Cane da Pastore Maremmano-Abruzzese"; this is the name under which in 1958 the ENCI (Ente Nazionale della Cinofilia Italiana, the Italian dog-breeders association) combined the previous populations of Pastore Maremmano and Pastore Abruzzese dogs, and the name under which all such dogs must be registered. The ENCI argued that their frequent opportunities to meet and interbreed during the annual summer transhumance to the high Appennines (particularly AFTER, not before, the unification of Italy in 1860) had rendered them essentially a single breed. The move was and still is opposed by many in Abruzzo, who argue that 1) their dog is physically distinguishable (even I have no difficulty in recognising the dog in the picture as being of Abruzzese rather than Tuscan/Maremmano type) and 2) that the Maremmano has been ruined by breeding for looks, while the Abruzzese remains closer to its origins as a working dog. The Coppingers may be great authorities in their field, but they have no authority to pronounce on the correct name of a dog originating half-way round the world from them, and no status if they do so. The ENCI, for better or worse, is the official holder of the breed register, and determines the breed standard, the name, and which dogs should be admitted for registration."

I've stuck a POV tag here in the hope of attracting some expert editors. If it is of use, I have some knowledge and some materials relating to this breed, its history, iconography etc. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 12:40, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Whey?
I've removed this bit:"The dogs are fed only whey, which apparently has all the nutrition they need to act as guardians. If they were fed flesh, they would become predators. (fact learned directly from a former shepherd in the village of Pescasseroli, Abruzzo)" from the article as it is without reliable sources, oral history (however interesting) being, regrettably, "primary" and thus not regarded as an acceptable source on this wiki. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:14, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Removed material
I have removed some unreferenced material from the article; most of it is non-encyclopaedic in tone, much of it is HOW-TO. I am copying it here in case there is anything in it that should, if referenced, have a place in the article, or in case someone wants to add it to some other wiki. ""Maremmas tolerate the heat very well, as in their native country Italy, they were /are used on open ranges. A Maremma will shed its coat to accommodate its climate. Do not shave the Maremma, as their coat protects them from the sun and the burning of the skin. In colder climates, Maremmas will retain their coat - but in hot areas, they will shed out. The owner should brush the dog in this time of coat 'blow out', however, constant brushing is not recommended at other times of the year. Bathing should be a rare occurrence, as Maremmas have natural oils in their skin that helps them shed dirt. One day your big white dog will be black and by morning, all white again... with no help from YOU! In fact, Maremmas will refuse to enter a dog house because of a desire for a 360-degree view. Valentino the Maremma.jpg Maremmas should only be considered for a companion dog if you are willing to understand the mind and job of a Maremma sheepdog. You and your family become the flock it protects and visitors who have not been introduced by the owner, are not allowed to proceed. A Maremma is extremely intelligent. It is not a breed of dog that should be placed in a fenced in yard with no job or 'stock'. If you are purchasing a Maremma to watch over your family, then the dog must be a PART of the family. It cannot be a yard dog alone. Maremmas are close working livestock guardian dogs and will seek out the stock to lay near by.""

""The dogs (whose official Italian breed name is "pastore maremmano-abruzzese" but who are more often called "pastore abruzzese" omitting reference to the breed's English name are believed to have originated in the Apennine mountains of Abruzzo two thousand years ago where early shepherds used the dogs to drive off wolves."" Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:13, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I've also, inadvertently, removed a photograph. It's not a very good photograph, and perhaps not a very good dog either. Does it actually add anything to the article, do others think? In my view it does not. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:24, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

New image
Would it be appropriate to add another image of a maremma to this article, or does it have enough already? Image is on the right. Bodman456 (talk) 03:38, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe the article does need an image of a typically Maremmano-type dog, despite my having already overloaded it with images relating to the iconography. However, I feel we should look for a picture that shows more of the characteristic points of the dog and the breed than does this one. Others? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:38, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit for flow
"When this was translated into English to name the breed it became Maremma Sheepdog, which gives the casual observer of the name the misconception that this dog will round up a herd of animals."

I'm suggesting making a change to the sentence fragment:

"...which gives the casual observer of the name the misconception that this dog will round up a herd of animals."

Specifically, removing the (arguably dangling) prepositional phrase:

"...of the name..."

The suggested, sentence fragment edit is:

"...misguiding the casual observer into the misconception that this dog will round up a herd of animals."

for better grammar and flow.

Comment?

D0ugparker (talk) 16:59, 25 December 2013 (UTC)Doug Parker
 * Good point! I took a slightly more radical approach, given that nothing in the sentence added anything to the article - it already says above that it is a breed of livestock guardian dog. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:25, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Recent edits
I've reverted a number of recent edits by, as these added a large amount of unreferenced and quite unencyclopaedic material to the article (which already has enough problems). Phrases such as "naturally gifted with outstanding pride, dignity and strength" simply have no place in a project such as this. Wikipedia is built on WP:reliable sources; while a lot of what is already here is woefully under-sourced, that's no reason to add any further unreferenced content. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 13:16, 12 August 2016 (UTC)