Talk:Margaret Dryburgh/Archive 1

Tenko
This article makes several over-generalised and unsubstantiated claims, which I have removed:

"The plight of Dryburgh and her friends in a Japanese prisoner of war camp inspired the TV series Tenko."

and

"Her story also inspired the BBC television series Tenko"

For one thing, the sources cited do not support this contention - and this is because it is not true. Tenko was inspired by various stories of female internees from many different camps, and by no one internee or group of internees in particular. I suggest the author of this article reads Women Beyond the Wire: A Story of Prisoners of the Japanese 1942-1945 by Lavinia Warner (thr producer of Tenko) and John Sandilands. 81.156.126.17 (talk) 17:40, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Replacing text which someone removed in this edit. I wonder why? To whom it may concern: don't edit out other people's comments. Reply to them, by all means 81.156.126.17 (talk) 10:57, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * More on the interesting IP editor. As I have been accused of 'hiding' behind an IP, I find it interesting that User:Seahamlass made her last edit on Margeret Dryburgh at 19:53 on 20 June, and the IP deleted my comments on this talk page at 20:08 on 20 June. Interestingly, both Seahamlass and the IP edit articles on County Durham; the IP graded the article as B class and mid importance .  81.156.126.17 (talk) 11:23, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Any Wikipedian can grade an article, whether they have significantly contributed to it or not, up to - and including - a B grade. After that, it has to be independently assessed before any higher grading can be awarded. A B-Class grade means an article is "almost there," but that "it may be missing one of the following: references, balance of content, or an important section." A B grade is by no means a top grade, it just means it is better referenced, or longer, than a Stub or Start-grade article. If you take a look at the talk page history of this article, you will see that an independent member of WikiProject Biography graded it as a B grade.-- seahamlass  10:55, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Tenko
Yet again, I have removed the misleading assertion that Tenko was inspired directly by Dryburgh and her friends.

Let's cut to the chase. Let's go strait to the source, Lavinia herself on her website, and see what she says brought her to develop Tenko. Here's the link: http://www.warnersisterstv.co.uk/tenko.htm I'll paraphrase her. She interviewed survivors of Margaret's camp, for a This Is Your Life programme about Dame Margot Turner. That in turn spurred her to make the the programme Women in Captivity. And it was while she was in the Far East researching many different camps for Women in Captivity (my emphasis) that she conceived the idea for Tenko. I am not arguing that Warner didn't know of Dryburgh - of course she did but your claim that Tenko was based on Dryburgh is hugely misleading. Tenko was based on the experiences of many different women, from many different camps.

I was objecting to your bald and patently incorrect assertion that "Her story also inspired the BBC television series Tenko" which is a blatant misreading of all the sources, suggesting she was the sole or main inspiration for the series.

You cite sources which don't support the claims you make:

Margaret Dryburgh (1890-1945) was born in Sunderland and trained as a teacher. She later became a missionary in Singapore, where she was captured in World War Two. The plight of Dryburgh and her friends in a Japanese prisoner of war camp inspired the 1996 film Paradise Road, as well as the TV series Tenko. Today, her memory lives on through the poignant song she penned in camp – The Captives Hymn.

References

Well I have checked the four sources which are available above (nos 4, 5 6 and 7) and none mention Dryburgh as being the inspiration for Tenko. And I would say that most of them don't meet the 'reliable sources' status required by Wikipedia. That is why I quoted Lavinia Warner's book - a reliable, published source, straight from the horse's mouth, not what someone who knew what someone's family thought might have been the inspiration. 81.156.126.17 (talk) 10:45, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Refs check out
I think you will find that ref 4 "John Roxborogh (1997). THE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH in Malaysia" does actually support the statement that Margaret helped inspire Tenko. It is mentioned right at the bottom, in the notes. As this is a church website, I would argue this would qualify as a 'reliable source.'

This website: also mentions Margaret - and others - as having their stories recalled on Tenko. It quotes the information as being taken from: Band, Edward, Working His Purpose Out: The History of the English Presbyterian Mission, 1847-1947 (1948). Colijn, Helen, Song of Survival (1995). Warner, Lavinia, and John Sandilands, Women Beyond the Wire (1982). Women's Choir of Haarlem, Holland, "Song of Survival," Mirasound CD 399216 (1995).

This website makes a vague reference to the Tenko link, and the link is also recalled in the book on Margaret written by a Presbyterian vicar.

At no point have I suggested Margaret was the sole inspiration for Tenko. She wasn't, and it would be unfair to say that. However, it was the strength and courage of Margaret and others like her which WAS the inspiration for this series. The book written by Tenko creator Lavinia Women, Beyond the Wire: Story of Prisoners of the Japanese, 1942-45, makes mention of the Women's Voice Choir in which Margaret was involved, so I fail to see how she was 'inspired' to some degree by this.

(Seahamlass. Away from my own computer, hence IP address).--80.176.190.43 (talk) 12:53, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Not really
First up, I now have a brand new shiny username to make you happy.

I think you fail to understand how citing facts works in Wikipedia. You have made comments like (my emphasis):


 * Just because YOU think something is right, it doesn't mean that it is so. I have interviewed the former parish priest at the church where Margaret Dryburgh worshipped, who is regarded as an authority on her - and has written a book about her. He believes that Tenko was based on what Margaret and her fellow inmates went through - as that is what her family has told him.

and


 * However, it was the strength and courage of Margaret and others like her which WAS the inspiration for this series. The book written by Tenko creator Lavinia Women, Beyond the Wire: Story of Prisoners of the Japanese, 1942-45, makes mention of the Women's Voice Choir in which Margaret was involved, so I fail to see how she was 'inspired' to some degree by this.

both of which are drawing conclusions from suppositions, not facts. I have provided published, reliable facts from Lavinia Warner, the creator of Tenko, herself, which says she was inspired by many different women from many different camps. Show me where she specifically mentions Margaret Dryburgh and that she was influenced by her and I will agree with you. But you CANNOT base the claim on inferences - "she knew about it so it must have influenced her". Likely, yes, but unless it is IMPLICTLY stated in a valid published source and by Warner herself, not what family members say, not what you feel to be the case, you cannot state that. And all the sources you quote are not, as I said, from the horse's mouth. They are people saying 'Oh, she must have been inspired by Margaret and the others' without providing proof for that claim.

In spite of all this, I think you have written a very useful and interesting article. At Wikipedia we have to make sure that what we say is correct, or else falsehoods get propagated. Mazell (talk) 15:21, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

The end
I wanted to write something to honour the memory of Margaret Dryburgh, as there was nothing about this remarkable lady on Wikipedia. Sadly, after months of hard work and research, the project has been ruined within days by one bullying editor. I withdraw all support from this article.-- seahamlass  18:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Personal attacks again, eh? The admins you spoke to on the admin incidents board didn't think there was a problem - just that you didn't like my criticism of your editing. I think you're just miffed because I rumbled your hypocritical editing under an IP. I'm sure it's not ethical to grade your own article, either. 86.138.46.127 (talk) 12:32, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Any Wikipedian can grade an article, whether they have significantly contributed to it or not, up to - and including - a B grade. After that, it has to be independently assessed before any higher grading can be awarded. A B-Class grade means an article is "almost there," but that "it may be missing one of the following: references, balance of content, or an important section." A B grade is by no means a top grade, it just means it is better referenced, or longer, than a Stub or Start-grade article. If you take a look at the talk page history of this article, you will see that an independent member of WikiProject Biography graded it as a B grade.-- seahamlass  10:55, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Get a sense of proportion
How have I "ruined the project"? I queried one small detail on the whole page, and you go off in huff. Wikipedia is the project anyone can edit, and they remind you that once you put an article out there, and I quote, "prepare to be ruthlessly edited". I hardly think I was ruthless. I pointed out a single inaccuracy, which is the duty of any editor. Not my fault you can't take criticism. Mazell (talk) 21:19, 21 June 2008 (UTC)