Talk:Margaret Macpherson Grant

FAC thoughts
*
 * For the avoidance of doubt, when I wrote "I have no article creation experience of biographies", I meant at FA. I have navigated 21 BDPs through GAN in the past 18 months, and so have some idea of how they work.
 * Alt text for all images, including the infobox one. See MOS:ALT; or any image in, eg, Battle of Crecy viewed in edit mode, where each will have "|alt=" followed by some text (the "alt text").
 * Consider changing all cites to harv, as I did for one with this diff.
 * Consider inserting a sub section or two into "Adult life".
 * Normally I would suggest posting it to GoCE for a copy edit and polish. Bit as I do a lot of pre-FAC GoCE work, you may prefer giving me permission to run through it. (Obviously, you can revert any changes you don't like.)
 * Any thoughts on another, relevant, image or two? Eg, any of the other people mentioned, the Jamaican estate, a photograph of one of the wills, etc.
 * Insofar as possible the web cites cover all of:
 * Go through the WP:FACRITERIA yourselves.

Gog the Mild (talk) 19:50, 27 September 2019 (UTC) Some responses and further thoughts...
 * I for one would be very happy for you to do the GoCE spit and polish Gog - heaven knose my prows could always do with it.


 * Images - I'll be happy to add alt text to the images. In terms of getting more pics, obviously a picture of Temple would be very relevant, and such a thing might exist if we scour the newspaper archives. It would also probably be worth me punting an e-mail off to the Aberlour charity to see whether they might be willing to donate something, perhaps a picture of Jupp (the priest who ran the orphanage), or an image of the orphanage itself before it was demolished. Temple's son's memorial is quite moving, and we might be able to get a picture of that, but perhaps it's too peripheral to the story to be worth including?
 * Update - I've attempted to add alt text to all the images; the one in the infobox is working for me, but I'm not seeing the text appear when I hover my cursor over the other two pictures. I can't see what I'm doing wrong though - it looks to me like I've copied the formatting correctly from the Battle of Crecy article - is it just my browser misbehaving? (I've also e-mailed the Aberlour charity about images, so we'll see if anything comes of that) Girth Summit  (blether)  12:29, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Your alt text looks fine. I had not previously noticed the alt text appearing when the infobox image is hovered on; I thing that that is a bug, not the others not doing so.


 * I'll think about subsections for 'Adult Life' - if I'm honest, when I created that section, it was more of a 'I don't know what else to call this bit' decision than a conscious choice, I agree that it needs breaking up.
 * I've had a stab at this - if either of you think I've gone too far, or can think of a better way to split this up, please go ahead and edit. Girth Summit  (blether)  12:29, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Looks sensible to me.


 * I'd be very happy for all the cites to be Harvard refs, I just don't know what that means., if those particular words in that particular order mean anything to you, please go ahead and change anything we need to!
 * I'll convert them tomorrow and you can see how it's done. I actually prefer it, as you don't have to read "around" the refs to read the text. Was hard for me at first, but now I don't ever use anything else. SusunW (talk) 01:50, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh! I like them refs. I'm like Susun, Harv refs were a real pain the first couple of times; now, when I start work on an existing article, the first thing I do is change the refs to Harv. Note that all page and date ranges should be separated by en dashes, not hyphens. More Wiki-trivia. I have done it, see this diff.


 * I was wondering whether there are some holes in the content that we might be able to fill, particularly with regard to the source of her wealth. I'd like to try and add some information about the Jamaican estates that she owned, and how much income the estates were generating (before and after the slaves were freed), and perhaps give the reader an idea of the number of slaves her uncle owned. Basically, the whole area of slavery in Jamaica contributing to this vast wealth in an out-of-the-way corner of Scotland seems an important and interesting part of her story, and I think we could expand it - but I'm not sure yet whether the sources exist. I know Jim Walvin (this bloke) pretty well, and was thinking about asking whether he might be able to help out with this, since it's his area - do you think that would help the case at FA, or would I just be creating more work for us to do? Depending on what (if anything) I'm able to find, this might be better suited to a separate article about her uncle, which we could obviously link to from this article. Thinking out loud here really, but responses would be welcome. Girth Summit  (blether)  00:23, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I think it'd be cool. It's complicated with all the Alexanders. This branch of the Grant family (See David Grant.See Marianne McKenzie) was in Jamaica for at least 3 generations, but, according to these records, the Alexander who married McKenzie was the son of David Grant. It looks like they left around 1836. But, that would mean that Alexander Green Grant was not the son of our Alexander Grant (son of Janet (née Donaldson) and George Grant), possibly a cousin? SusunW (talk) 06:10, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Now that I've slept on it, were it me, I'd start with the 1854 probate package. Surely it will give his vital info like date of birth, and an inventory of his estate should list all his property. SusunW (talk) 13:45, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
 * , Interesting thought - I think I found his will, here, but I'm on mobile and it's a struggle to read it so not 100% confident it's the right guy. Do you know of a way to get a copy without the watermark, or am I just going have to pay for access? Girth Summit  (blether)  13:58, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
 * wow, they make it "virtually impossible" (pun intended) to see the will. It says you can see it for free at the National Archives. Don't know if that is a possibility, but like you, I cannot see anything, except it is clear there are a bunch of dates in it. SusunW (talk) 14:58, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Just a thought- could information on other Grants (i.e. all these Alexanders) be added to the Clan Grant page if they are not notable enough for their own page? Then redirects could be created. Thsmi002 (talk) 17:20, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
 * If we ever figure it out, yes, we need to do that. I spent a whole day sorting out the children of James William Grant, because it seemed to me that it might prevent future confusion like we have had on this article. SusunW (talk) 18:20, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Information on the Jamaican property MacPherson Grant owned would certainly round out the article nicely. Probably not essential, but it would look good. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:25, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
 * , - I've purchased and downloaded Alexander Grant's will from the National Archives. It's definitely the right person - he's referred to as Alexander Grant, formerly of Jamaica and now of Arlington Street, Middlesex and of the Aberlour Estate in Banffshire, and a section I was able to decipher towards the end includes a sizable provision for Alexander Green Grant (by then a major in the army). The trouble is, I'm finding most of the handwriting very difficult to make out. Are either of you any good at making sense of documents like this? Obviously it's a primary source, but it might help lead us in the right direction in searching for secondary sources if we knew what it said. I'd be happy to e-mail it to either/both of you if you're interested.  Girth Summit  (blether)  15:20, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I have read at least a million archaic documents in my time, lots of wills and land records. I'll be happy to take a look if you send it to me. And yes, I get that it's a primary document, but typically outside of Wikipedia, those are more reliable than secondary sources for historic figures. SusunW (talk) 15:25, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , great - I'll ping it in an e-mail to you just now. (I didn't really think you needed an explanation about primary sources by the way - thought I'd better put a note about that just in case anyone is watching this page and wants to start accusing me of OR!) By the way, I just found a bit in it where he mentions 'my niece, Margaret McPherson' - looks like she had a middle name, but I can't make out what it was! Girth Summit  (blether)  15:27, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
 * You two seem to have this well in hand, so I will just mention WP:PRIMARY, which explicitly permits the use of primary sources, while advising care and giving some "Do not's". Gog the Mild (talk) 17:39, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
 * LOL ... well in hand o.O would be a bit of an exaggeration as the handwriting is some of the worst I have ever encountered. Though I am positive her name was Margaret Gordon MacPherson. Still trying to read through it, but it may well take several days. SusunW (talk) 19:18, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

Will observations and Alexander's family
I'm going to stick this here, so I don't have to recreate it later. George (ca. 1731 Drumfurrich-23 April 1816, Elgin, Scotland) [brother of Rev. Alexander Grant of Glenrinnes died 1 August 1806 and the brothers' mother died in 1777] and Janet Donaldson (ca. 1756-1834), had these children (which one of these men might have been Alexander is unclear; however, it is logical to assume that all of the males who were not Alexander were deceased by the time of his will, as he only mentions sisters so far in my reading.):
 * Margaret (ch. 2 March 1776) (if she is the "old aunt" Margaret Gordon, who MacPherson was leaving her estate to, she may have married Alexander Gordon and she died in 1866;
 * Mary (ch. 27 May 1780, married Alexander McConochie 13 September 1808,Mary Grant McConoghie died 27 Mar 1849;
 * William (ch. September 1782);
 * James (ch. 11 April 1784);
 * Robert (ch. 5 February 1787);
 * Charles (ch. 13 November 1790);
 * Ann (ch. 3 November 1793) Mother of Margaret. SusunW (talk) 22:10, 12 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Slow going on reading the will, but here's what I have gleaned so far:
 * "I own my remains to be laid to rest in the family? vault in the church yard of the parish of Mortlach Banffshire where the remains of my beloved father, mother and uncle The Reverend Alexander Grant are deposited". We also know this from Shaw, but I am curious if the Mortlach parish has records which would lead to figuring out which of George and Janet's children Alexander was. Checking Find-a-Grave and BillionGraves nothing appears to be on line for the early period we need, but people walking and filming the cemetery might not have access to a mausoleum or vault. I wonder if it would be worth our time to e-mail and ask if there are records of a vault containing Alexander, his father George and mother Janet, and uncle Rev. Alexander and anyone else who might be in it? (I also note he does not call his father reverend, thus that seems unlikely ...)
 * He was in business in Jamaica with Alexander Donaldson (related to his mother?) and Alexander Thomson. They provided victuals to the "king" for provisioning ships, transports, and prisoners of war on the Jamaica Station during the war. (What war???)
 * Gog the Mild (talk) 17:54, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thomson owed Grant money when he died and a whole bunch of text talks about that. (Like a whole bunch, without any punctuation, ugh).
 * Grant sued (Grant v. Grant, Thomson v. Grant) to recover his money from Donaldson from the sale of the estates and produce of Brampton Bryan, Bryan Castle, Low Layton, Orange D(V)ale and a run? of land ? Fairfield in Saint Georges parish. (Brampton Bryan had 282 slaves on the date of the claim and mostly produced sugar, rum and pimento; Bryan Castle had 237 slaves at date of claim and mostly produced sugar, rum, pimento; Lowlayton 334 slaves sugar, rum; Orange Vale 160 slaves sugar, rum, coffee, cattle. At this point, he had around 1,013 slaves).
 * Unable to find records of an estate called Fairfield is not listed in the database, though there are several "unknown" estates in it; however, it existed. In The London Gazette, July 1820 it is listed along with other of the above estates and shows that it had 950 acres and was located on Buff Bay River about six or seven miles from the Buff Bay Wharf. Going back to Grant's record, it shows he had claims for Orange River (Could this be Fairfield? On second thought probably not as it was in St Mary, not St George parish) which had 211 slaves and produced sugar and rum; and by virtue of Grant v. Edwards another unnamed parcel in St Mary which had 1 slave. (total slaves at this point 1,225)
 * He also had interest in the estates of Nonsuch and Unity by virtue of a mortgage due to Donaldson. This estate had 273 slaves and both primarily produced sugar and rum. (1498 total slaves at this point).
 * More later SusunW (talk) 16:57, 14 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Gog the Mild (talk) 17:54, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I thought exactly the same thing . LOL Mayhaps will start a draft on Alexander, but it'd be nice to know which of those sons of George and Janet he was ... SusunW (talk) 20:19, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Margaret Gordon MacPherson, his niece is his primary beneficiary. Should she fail the estate will go to her mother Annie and after her mother to Alexander MacPherson (who he disliked?) for his natural life. If all of them are dead, it is to go to "my valuable friend the said Michael McThiery nephew of my friend the said James Cavoin/Eavoin/Gavoin?" and failing him to any male issue of his deceased sister Mrs. Mary McConochie formerly of Aberdeen (see above).
 * Margaret, and should she marry her husband, must take the surname Grant.
 * Maybe it's a British thing, or maybe a thing for people who have money, but he seems inordinately concerned about what people do with their own property he left them after he dies. I just want to yank him up and explain he doesn't own it anymore and to leave them be. ;) More later. SusunW (talk) 20:19, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , I just want to know why the hell he was called Alexander when that appears not to have been his name, especially when almost every other man he seems to have ever done business with or been related to was also called that?! Come to think of it though, it might have been a good thing - if you could safely assume that any man you met was called Alexander, there would be no awkward God, what's his name again moments. I'd be happy to e-mail Mortlach parish to see if they have any records they'd be willing to share with us - do you think a general 'Do you have any records pertaining to the following people I think are buried in your graveyard....' type thing would suffice, or do you have more specific questions in mind? Girth Summit  (blether)  20:33, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , I literally choked on my water I was laughing so hard. I would specifically tell them exactly what we have with names and dates only for the people we know are buried there. It will make it easier for them to try to find. Just copy the paragraph above on George and Janet and add Alexander's (need I say Grant, nephew of Alexander Grant? LOL) death date. (Don't give them all of the children of George and Janet. It will seem overwhelming. Just Alexander and ask them if in the vault or their records if there might be mention of other family members.) Ask them if they can confirm the burials or provide any records pertaining to the family. If they respond, then we can ask them about the others. SusunW (talk) 21:09, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , OK, I'll try to find an e-mail address and will draft something. I actually wrote our article on Mortlach Parish Church, so it will be nice to reach out to them - I might ask if they'd be willing to donate any images to improve that article as well. :) Would you like me to copy you into the e-mail, or just let you know what (if anything) they come back with? Girth Summit  (blether)  21:33, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * that is cool. I often find the subject of my next article from a previous article. Ties them nicely into the fabric of the encyclopedia. It'd be cool if you could get photos. No need to copy me unless you just want to. But when you get an answer, I'll be very interested. Fingers crossed. SusunW (talk) 21:52, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Margaret was to receive £1,500 payable in 2 annual installments until she reached the age of majority (20). "I bequeath to my said niece for whom I entertain great love and affection highly appreciating that I have observed of her excellent disposition and conduct whilst with Miss Stodart at Hampstead a legacy of twenty thousand pounds on her attaining a majority of twenty years of age or marriage if with the consent of her parents and Guardians and the same settled in manner usual in such cases to prevent its becoming subject to the debts control or liabilities of any husband with whom she may intermarry. Also a further legacy of five hundred pounds independently of the aforesaid legacy of twenty thousand pounds to be paid at my decease." He also gave her a diamond pin, silver plate, and his father's "oval gold snuff box presented to him by myself in 1798," as well as a gold chronometer, table linens, and toiletries.
 * This is perhaps one of the most significant statements in the will. If he bought a gold snuff box in 1798, he obviously had the means to do so. For him to be in business in 1798 (and he was...see this goldmine of info that also talks about Margaret he had to be "of majority" so born prior to 1778. That leaves us with two possibilities, either he was born in the gap between Margaret and Mary, or he is the eldest child.)
 * Alexander Green Grant his adopted son (if the above Jamaican records are correct, this was the son of Jamaican-born Alexander Grant, not our Alexander) got £17,500 pounds.
 * Annie McPherson (Margaret's mother) got £200 life annuity paid in twice-annual installments, a diamond ring and whatever of his furnishings she might want.
 * "Mr. Alexander McPherson my friend and brother in law a legacy of one thousand pounds as a mark of my regard for him." (Again calls into question the depiction that their relationship was shaky.)
 * His sister Margaret Gordon widow of Alexander Gordon of Garbity got the same annuity as Annie and a gold watch.
 * Miss Margaret McConachie at Aberdeen daughter of his dead sister, Mary McConachie, got £1,000 and each of her two brothers got £500.
 * Noble, his "confidential clerk" got £3,500.
 * Charlotte Anstruther niece of the late Alexander Donaldson got £1,500 and her nephew Robert Anstruther got £200.
 * More tomorrow. As this is my 36th wedding anniversary, I promised my husband I would stop working at noon. We are off to adventure. SusunW (talk) 16:35, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , thanks for all you've done so far on this - your palaeograohical skills are formidable! Congrats on your anniversary, hope you have a wonderful time. Girth Summit  (blether)  17:27, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * LOL, "palaeographical skills"! It is a bit like code-breaking and slow going as because once I become more familiar I go back and read earlier bits which I had a lot of question marks about. We had a lovely day, thanks . SusunW (talk) 13:45, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * An update of sorts: I am finally up to page 11 of 12 (phew) and will e-mail the final transcription either late today or early tomorrow. Additional tidbits of note:
 * If Alexander died in London, he wanted to "be buried in the Kensall Green Cemetery in a dry situation in the James circle and a monument erected over the grave with my name thereon"
 * He first went to the West Indies in 1791. This is confirmed by Maddock, vol IV, 1821, pp 443 for sixteen years prior to the death of Alexander Donaldson (who died in March 1807 during his return trip to England, p 440) Grant had lived in Jamaica and in Saint Domingo (probably Saint-Domingue, i.e. Haiti).
 * His executors read like a who's who of slave procurers. Alexander Stewart of Winchester House Broad Street, London, James Cavan of Park Crescent Portland Place, Charles McGarel of Wimpole Street, Michael McChlery of Finsbury Circus London, John Irving of No 204 Eaton Place nephew of the late John Irving Esquire MP for Antrim, Alexander McGregor formerly of Glascow but now of No. 3 Arlington Street
 * He made Alexander MacPherson an executor by codicil.
 * He reduced the legacy to Alexander Green Grant to £10,000 "circumstances having taken place which induce me to limit said gift" but then later added another codicil to pay £2,100 to buy him the rank of Lieutenant Colonel. SusunW (talk) 18:07, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Do we know in which regiment? Gog the Mild (talk) 18:13, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
 * He calls him "Major Alexander Green Grant of Her Majesty's 85th Regiment Light Infantry" SusunW (talk) 20:03, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Last thing in the will is that he changed the annuity to Annie Macpherson to one for her and Alexander Macpherson and upped it from £200 per annum to £1,000. I've sent the completed transcription. SusunW (talk) 20:03, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Copy edit queries

 * "loss of his slaves as business assets of over £24,000" Do you want to give that sum in today's terms?
 * ✅ Yes, this is probably worth doing - I've added that now. Girth Summit  (blether)  07:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Do we know what the relationship was between Alexander Grant and Marianne McKenzie?
 * I'm not sure that we do - this whole area of the Grant family's Jamaican history is fairly confusing, we probably need to do a bit more work on this to flesh out the details about what they owned there, and exactly who was was who. Girth Summit  (blether) 07:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
 * According to the Jamaican records, Alexander Grant (born 31 March 1790 and christened 7 January 1791, in Kingston, Jamaica) father of Green Grant was the son of David Grant and Ann(e) Hitchman. He was the grandson of Dr David Grant of Dellachapple, Cromdale, Invernesshire, Scotland and Janet Dwarris, both of whom died in Kingston, Jamaica in 1796. Given that both our Alexander's Will and Maddock, vol IV, 1821, pp 443 show our dude came to Jamaica in 1791, they are clearly not the same people. (Not to mention all the records that show our Alexander's father was George, not David). SusunW (talk) 19:47, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

You will wish to check my relatively bold copy edits. Revert any you don't like. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:07, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't see any that I don't like :) Girth Summit  (blether)  07:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm going to stick these things here, which I discovered somewhat randomly, while trying to verify names and such in the will: "WHITEHALL, June 14 1854" name change, "Court of Sessions" Macpherson Grant apparently had an illness in 1867, which led to her addiction, "Court of Sessions" gives a lot more detail about her dealings with the church, "Scotland" confirms my belief that George Grant was not a minister, but rather a farmer. SusunW (talk) 21:52, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Restarting this
Hi - I think I need to apologise again for dropping the ball on this. My RfA ran during our half-term holidays, and the first few weeks of this half-term have been awash with parent consultation evenings, so my Wikipedia time has been limited, and I've basically spent most of it working out how all these new buttons that appear on my screen work. Nevertheless, you've put a great deal of effort into this (especially in wrangling with that will!), so I'm sorry I let this slide. I'm eager to get it moving again, if you still want to, but things aren't quite as fresh in my mind as they should be. If I lay out a few bullet points below, could you confirm whether or not you think I've understood them properly?
 * The will will allow us to give more detail about the nature of her inheritance.
 * I think I did this, but if not or if you feel there is too much detail, feel free to edit it in any way you see fit. SusunW (talk) 21:37, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
 * , hi - your changes look brilliant to me. I wonder though, now you've expanded on this, it's slightly awkwardly straddling the gap between the 'Early life' and 'Adult life' sections - perhaps we should create a separate subsection about 'inheritance'? I'll attempt something very soon (tomorrow is the last day of term before the school breaks up for Christmas hols). Girth Summit  (blether)  07:01, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
 * As I said, feel free to modify anything. I put the paragraph about the lawsuits with the early life and family because it wasn't about her per se, but certainly impacted her. The actual stuff she got, I put in the inheritance section, but I have no clue how to do that conversion thing. I also combined the "outright" gift of ₤500 at Grant's death and the ₤20,000 bequest for her independence into one lump as it seemed irrelevant what his intent was for the separate gifts. SusunW (talk) 15:41, 10 December 2019 (UTC)


 * We can clarify the situation with regard to Alexander Green Grant, in that he was in fact the son of a different Alexander Grant, and our chap's description of him as an adopted son was probably true (although perhaps not in a strict legal sense).
 * ✅ Per the discussion below, I've removed discussion of AGG entirely


 * We've got a ref to the Queen Vic's formal assent to Macpherson Grant's adopting the name Grant (pretty cool!)


 * Your court of sessions refs can be used to support/expand some of the existing details we have about the overall narrative, give more details about her relationships with the Episcopal Church of Scotland, and perhaps expand on her health issues prior to alcoholism.
 * We can be clear about who her uncle's father was.

Cheers Girth Summit  (blether)  19:12, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
 * You managed to find this PhD thesis about the estates in Jamaica that we think her uncle owned. I've lost track though of how we can connect her to Orangedale - is that in Alexander's will? Sorry if I'm being dense, I'm always amazed at how quickly things can fall out of your head...
 * Have I missed anything?
 * You have no reason to apologize for anything . Life happens and wp has no time limit. Besides I was busy getting the Inter-Allied Women's Conference finished ;). I think you hit all the points. Orangedale was just one of the estates she inherited in Jamaica. Since we don't have information about all of them, but pretty much they all operated the same, I think we can give a bit of back ground information on the source of her income, i.e. sugar, rum, and I forget what else...pimento? When you are ready, I'll be glad to help. Real world stuff is a bit crazed at this point, but I'm trying to sort through it all. SusunW (talk) 23:28, 15 November 2019 (UTC)


 * At the risk of stating the obvious, don't feel a need to cram information in just because you have it. Apologies if this really is obvious. Gog the Mild (talk) 00:37, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
 * No worries Gog - good advice is worth repeating! I'll try to bear that in mind, and avoid getting into unnecessary detail, but there are a few loose ends in the article that will be good to tidy up. By the way, I haven't had anything back from the church, but the charity has been back in touch with some images - mostly of the orphanage unfortunately, and pretty poor quality (they look like pretty poorly scanned copies of pretty poor photos), but one or two might be usable. I'm still waiting for them to sort out releasing them under creative commons and/or confirming the publication date, then I'll stick them onto commons and see whether we can get one into the article. Cheers Girth Summit  (blether)  12:11, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree, but background information is helpful to put things in context, as are photos, as they often make clear things mere words cannot express. The trick is to put enough in to give context, but not so much in as to be off-topic. :) (I'm also still curious if Alexander the uncle was buried in a dry place (good lord he had control issues) in Kensall Green Cemetery but that has no real bearing on Margaret's article). SusunW (talk) 15:08, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi there - I'm looking at Green Grant at the moment. I'm probably missing something obvious - can you remind me how we are connecting him to the Alexander Grant who was born in Jamaica, rather than to Margaret's uncle? Neither of the Jamaica Family Sources seem to mention Green Grant, is there another one I should be looking at? Cheers Girth Summit  (blether)  16:33, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
 * See above note from October 18th confirming that the son of David and Ann (née Hitchman) Grant was married/partnered??? to Marianne McKenzie. McKenzie's record shows she was the mother of Green Grant. SusunW (talk) 16:56, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
 * , ah, brilliant thanks - yes, that makes sense now. So many different threads to this, I'm getting lost in links! Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  17:32, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Totally understand. That happens to me all the time ;) SusunW (talk) 17:39, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Alexander Green Grant
,, a penny for your thoughts. It seems to me that the question of why Margaret inherited, rather than Alexander Green Grant, is important, and our article should address it. The sources are clear that Alexander Green was not Alexander's natural son, but (if his will is to be believed) that he was adopted by him; under 'regular' law, that would mean he would inherit. However, this source describes Marianne McKenzie as a mustee - she was mixed race. Alexander Green was, as the son of a mustee and a white British subject, 'legally white' - he had the same rights and privileges as British subjects, born of white parents, with certain restrictions. The source doesn't expand on those restrictions, except to say that they couldn't vote - could they inherit? Are either of you familiar with any sources that could shed light on this? Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether) 20:27, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Ha, no. But a quick Google gives this, see just after Mesteefeena. A G Grant would have been a mustefino, and this, p 44 suggests that only the child of a mustefino was legally white. AH HA! What you need is in "Race, Colour, and Miscegenation: The Free Coloured of Jamaica and Barbados" - here on JSTOR, p 8. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:45, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * as ever, your Google skills seem to surpass mine! OK, I'll read through that and have another stab at it - thanks! Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  21:00, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * For the life of me I cannot figure out why I didn't get your ping,, but yes, has found it. Legally white didn't mean totally able to participate. That line in the doc he linked about limited what they could inherit from whites pretty much covers it. SusunW (talk) 21:02, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks - I'll have a bash over the weekend. FWIW, the pinging system never fails to baffle me. The rules seem pretty simple - add the ping in an edit and add a signature. From experience however, (with numerous CVUA students), it doesn't always work - I'll explain how to do it, they'll complain that I haven't responded - and sure enough, when I check the history, I'll see that they did everything right but I didn't get the ping. I reckon it's about 90-95% effective, but not entirely reliable.  Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  21:10, 5 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Purely guessing, is it possible that you confused the system by pinging twice, rather than as ? Gog the Mild (talk) 21:14, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Truly, technology on here is beyond me, but fortunately Gog is ever vigilent :) SusunW (talk) 21:18, 5 December 2019 (UTC)


 * "your Google skills seem to surpass mine"; "Gog is ever vigilent": clear signs of a mis-spent old age I am afraid. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:23, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * WRT the pinging issue: dunno? Pinging separately has (almost) always worked for me, in a kind of 'I didn't know you could ping two people at once' kind of way. My understanding is that if you type out a ping correctly, and sign you post, any new notifications will be sent. If you make a typo, you need to fix it and re-sign, and notification to be sent. But even with straight-up single pings with a single signature, I've had numerous failed notifications where I couldn't see where my student had gone wrong - they mostly work, but roughly somewhere between one in ten or twenty fails for no reason I've ever been able to work out. Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  21:29, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Fascinating. I am unaware of any correctly formatted ping I have ever sent or received not getting through. I have tended to regard it as slightly more reliable than email. Peculiar. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:18, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * - hope the double ping worked? I've been reading through these sources, but unless I've missed something, I've come away with the impression that there was no legal impediment to AGG inheriting. The Jstor source says that Beginning in 1796 the free coloured were gradually extended... ...to inherit property from whites without limitations, and to save for deficiency for themselves. Not until 1826, however, were they allowed to hold supervisory positions on the plantations. Four year later, in 1830, the remaining disabilities were removed. As I read that, by the time our Alexander Grant died, there would have been no problem with his adopted son inheriting - he presumably just wanted the money to stay within the 'real' family. I'm not sure what we can add to the article about this - it's probably worth mentioning that Green Grant's mother was a mustee, and providing a link to the relevant article, but unless I'm missing something I'm not sure we can tie this to the inheritance. Thoughts much appreciated... Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  22:05, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Ping worked fine. And I'm not sure either, because all my efforts to clarify have probably muddied the waters. Something about Alexander son of David kept popping in my brain. I thought that if I could find originals of Caribbeana it might help. It didn't. Instead, what I found is David, born 20 December 1744 to David and Jane (Janet née Dwarris, died Oct. 1796)p 21 wrote his will on 28 August 1815. He did not list a surviving son Alexander, thus it is logical that Alexander son of David died prior to 1815. (David died 29 June 1817 in Kingston.p 32) There is an Alex Grant who was buried on 23 April 1815 and was 26 years old, i.e. born 1789-1790, which correlates to the 31 March 1790 birth date for David's son Alexander. and death before David's will was written in August ... But, why is there no mention of Alexander Green Grant in the will if he was related to this family? And more peculiar, if David's son Alexander was the father of Green Grant, as this record says, it also shows he was alive 1836. That seems wrong, which then makes me question the whole lineage. Maybe our Alexander was indeed his father? Joseph Green's will clearly indicates that. I am totally confused now about who his father was. Do we put it in notes or leave it out entirely? SusunW (talk) 22:11, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I would guess that Grant snr considered Grant jnr something of an unfortunate and possibly tainted by-blow and didn't trust him to do the "right thing" by an inheritance. But if it's not in the source you are just going to have to just present the facts and leave it to the reader. I am sure you can present them in such a way that most readers will understand what was happening. (I have an article currently in FAC about a 1945 Canadian Army war crime. Except no one ever, anywhere, has described it as such. That was fun!) Gog the Mild (talk) 22:16, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah. Seen Susun's comment. My rule of Wiki-thumb: If you ain't sure, leave it out completely - it may seem important to you, but the odds are that a reader will never miss it. This has, mostly, served me well. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:19, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * , yes, what do we gain by putting Green Grant in? Do we lose anything by omitting him? SusunW (talk) 22:29, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I think I'm in agreement with your thoughts expressed above. In theory, I would really like to expand on AGG, because he is obviously an interesting part of the narrative, but I agree the sources are pretty muddy. If I think about how to frame it in the article, I come up with something along the lines of the following:
 * "Alexander Grant probably (although possibly not legally) adopted Alexander Green Grant, who was the son of a different Alexander Grant and Marianne McKenzie, a mustee, and who was therefore legally white and entitled to inherit property. Nevertheless, Grant left it to his niece."
 * Kind of sub-optimal, no matter how many sources I cite! I think that, if (when?) we write an article about Alexander Grant, this would be essential content; since this is about his niece, I wouldn't be averse to skipping it. If you are both comfortable with the idea, I'd be content with removing the stuff we have about AGG, or with trimming it to the point where we simply describe him as an adopted son and minor beneficiary of the will. Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  22:46, 6 December 2019 (UTC)


 * For this article, that seems fine. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:58, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Don't you mean "Alexander Grant might have been the actual father, though he probably (although possibly not legally) adopted Alexander Green Grant, who also possibly from other records was the son of a different Alexander Grant and Marianne McKenzie, a mustee, and who was therefore legally white and entitled to inherit property. Nevertheless, Grant who was inordinately concerned with what happened to his estate, left it to his niece." LOL I would leave it out of Margaret, (we don't list any of the other heirs) but if we do Alexander, it needs to be clarified somehow. SusunW (talk) 23:00, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * That could do with a copy edit, but yeah - something like that. My brain aches. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:02, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * , yes, I think that's what I meant! OK, if we're all in agreement, I'll make some changes along these lines tomorrow, and hopefully knock the other outstanding points into shape (my partner is at a conference in London this weekend, and next week is the end of term so basically just fun Christmas activities, so I'm rapidly running out of mental excuses for not finishing this...). Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  23:04, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I love working with both of you, because you truly make me laugh. SusunW (talk) 23:10, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Laugh? This is Wikipedia. We're all terribly serious here. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:17, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Wow - there are templates for smileys? As a Year Four mathematician recently said to me, "When will the learning end?!" Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  23:51, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Oh yeah. Was it Einstein or Buddha who made the quip about the brightness of the candle and the surface area of the darkness? wp:emoticons Gog the Mild (talk) 00:21, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * , he! I bet myself I could make you outdent again before the night was out. Small minds, easily amused.... Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  00:50, 7 December 2019 (UTC)


 * (I was reading the article and stumbled on this discussion :D) For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that if you go back and try to fix or change a ping, (Like Girth did) it won't go through. The couple pings during my CVUA course with Girth that didn't work were the ones I had to go back and either fix spelling on or add a forgotten signature to. I guess that's my 2¢. (sorry I don't know the equivalent of cents in England. :p is it shillings?) Puddleglum <sup style="font-family:impact;color:silver;"> 2.0   16:15, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

FA nomination
- I'm starting this as a new section to avoid getting muddled up with the stuff above. I'm sorry (again!) for my recent hiatus, I had some personal stuff that needed seeing to. I've been back and re-read what you've written in light of your comments above, and I've changed my mind - I can see why you've split it up the way you have, and don't feel the need for a new section for it. My feeling is that we've now incorporated all of the relevant stuff that we can reliably source. I'd be keen to know your thoughts, and those of, as to whether this is ready to move forward to a FA nomination.

The issue that jumps out at me is whether it has enough images to illustrate it properly. I have received some pics from the Aberlour charity, but they aren't first-rate in terms of clarity (I think they are photographs (rather than scans) of old photographs), and they haven't got back to me with the necessary copyright disclosures. If the feeling is that the article wouldn't make FA with the current images, I can keep hassling them and ask for better images; any other thoughts would be gratefully received. Cheers both Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  22:55, 16 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Oof! I am a little busy with both RL and various Wiki things at the moment, but I will try to get round to giving it both a thorough copy edit and review this week. Stick a location map at the bottom of the infobox and I reckon that it will do. (I can do that if you want.) Thin, but you have a good reason; I've seen others as thin. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:06, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I've had no access to the internet for the last week. Real world craziness, but I'm a grand-aunt! On photos, you have what you have. Be sure you put alt text on all of them. It's a description of what's in the photo, i.e. Photograph of a woman in Edwardian dress, or something like that, if you don't know. Not sure how much I'll be able to be on here until after the first of the year, but ping me if you need me and I'll be checking in. SusunW (talk) 14:17, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * , congratulations! I hope mother and baby are both doing well. I'll look at the alt text just now - I'm sure I can figure out how to add that. Happy holidays if we don't speak before then, cheers Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  19:13, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks She's in NICU as was early but both seem to be doing well at this point. Hope your holidays are full of joy. SusunW (talk) 19:16, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * , she'll be in my thoughts, and the same to you. would you be willing to help out on a couple of technical bits? So, I've had a look at adding a map to the infobox, but 'show preview' told me that I'd put in a load of invalid parameters - I guess you meant underneath the infobox. Can you point me at an example of where this is done well? I'd like to do it myself so I can learn how. Also, I'm a bit confused about the alt text. When I hover over the picture in the infobox, my alt text appears; however, when I hover over the other images, it doesn't work. There is text in there - have I formatted it incorrectly? Thanks  Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  19:28, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * you did alt text fine. I had the same questions first time I did it, thought I'd screwed it all up as only got an explanation on the first photo. I checked your formatting on the 2nd photo and all appears good. The other question is *way* above my paygrade. LOL SusunW (talk) 23:42, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Coxton Tower has a fine example. But it turns out that you can't put maps in an "infobox person". Which is fair enough I suppose. So I have added one just below. What do you think? Gog the Mild (talk) 00:02, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * , looks great, thanks! (Yes, I tried copying Coxton tower, that's when I got all the invalid parameter things.) Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  14:24, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I also tried that first. And it seemed easier to just insert what was needed for you to refer to in the future than to explain in words. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:07, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Copy edit comments
I have made a few changes. Feel free to revert any or all of them.


 * I am not sure about the Jr in "Alexander Jr". Is that really used in Scottish English? With an upper case J? Maybe "Her brother"?
 * ✅ I agree that this wouldn't be normal usage. If disambiguation was needed we'd probably say 'the younger' or similar, but going with 'her brother' seems simpler. Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  13:35, 27 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Sometimes referred to as "Macpherson", sometimes as "Macpherson Grant". I suggest the uses in the first paragraoh of "Inheritance", before the name change is discussed, be switched to 'Macpherson'.
 * ✅ I reworded to avoid using her name in one instance, and changed the second instance - which comes just before we mention her changing her name, so I think that's clear enough. Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  13:35, 27 December 2019 (UTC)


 * "a partner of The Scotsman newspaper" isn't quite right, but I am struggling to think of a better way of expressing it.
 * ✅ The source describes him as the proprietor, and our article about him says that he had inherited the greater part of the property by 1870, so I've just gone ahead and changed this to proprietor. Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  13:35, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Otherwise, to my eye it looks good to go. Excellent work, both of you. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:48, 19 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks for all this - I've had a look at these and made the changes described above - what's the next step? Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  13:35, 27 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Nominate it - FAC instructions. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:04, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, will do. The instructions said to ensure that all previous reviews have been closed and archived - I'm not a whizz at setting up archives, but I've hatted above to tidy up the talk page. Let me know if archiving is really necessary and I'll have a play. Cheers Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  14:34, 27 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Personally I have never tidied, archived nor hatted anything prior to my 18 FAC nominations. I would suggest just nominating. If it breaks anything, blame your mentor. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:44, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah - oh well, it can easily be undone if it's a problem. I've completed the nom now, I'll keep an eye on it... thanks again for all the mentoring! Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  14:52, 27 December 2019 (UTC)


 * No problem. I accept payment in beer. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:03, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

The FAC
A couple of things.

When slavery was abolished in 1833, the British government sent aside £20,000,000 (X in today's terms) to compensate slave owners. Grant's share amounted to claimed over £24,000 ... '?
 * Have you begged, bribed, threatened, or coerced every Wikipedian you know to review this? I recommend being totally shameless.
 * Re the (currently) last point. Maybe '

Gog the Mild (talk) 18:53, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
 * , hi - sorry, somehow I'd missed this post - I obviously should have started begging sooner... Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  13:47, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * No worries. All part of the learning curve. I’ve called in a favour and put down a marker myself, which should at least buy you a week to round up another reviewer. And don’t be shy about nagging existing reviewers to either support or identify more work that needs doing. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:18, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I just dropped notes on a couple of people's talk pages, and KJP1 has said that he'll take a look over the weekend, so hopefully it will get a bit of movement in the coming days. Cheers Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  14:26, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

"requirements of Scots law"?
I don't want to interrupt the FAC, but can someone expand on what "Her Scottish solicitors warned her that they were unconvinced that this English document would satisfy the requirements of Scots law." means? Do the sources say what the problem was?

I can think of two possibilities, but there may be more. As she was domiciled in Scotland, the lawyers may have been concerned that the Scottish courts would be in charge of administering her estate, and those courts may not have been satisfied with her as a Scottish person making an English will to deal with her Scottish assets. Additionally, or alternatively, perhaps there was a technical concern, that for example the will was not validly signed or witnessed in accordance with the requirements of Scottish law (such as signing each page) even if it met the requirements of English law, and so would not be considered valid in Scotland.

It seems to be quite an important point in the story, so I would expect it to be discussed in more detail somewhere. Theramin (talk) 00:21, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid that none of the sources I have been able to find shed any more light on this than what is in the article. This isn't an area I have any particular expertise in, but I when I spoke to an academic about what the problem might have been, they speculated that it might have been due to the differences in how easy it is to challenge a will. Scots law, apparently, has a stronger presumption that an estate will stay within a family, and gives the close relatives of a deceased person a lot of freedom to challenge that person's will if it leaves the estate to someone outside the family - as Temple clearly would have been. My guess is that it's something along those lines, perhaps different forms of words would have had to be used to avoid any future challenge, but anything further I add to the article on this point would be guesswork, or SYNTH at best. Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  18:11, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Capitalisation of "Macpherson"
Should "Macpherson" be capitalised? The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography capitalises it, though some other sources don't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swiftestcat (talk • contribs) 16:34, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * , hi - sorry, I just noticed this comment. I think you mean with a capital P (MacPherson)? The sources aren't consistent, either in capitalisation or in spelling (which made searching for them a bit more complicated when I was writing the article!). I selected the variant that seemed to represent the most common way that sources handle this particular person's name (as opposed to the general name itself). I'm sure you could find a bunch of reliable counter-examples, but I think I could point to more reliable sources spelling/capitalising it this way. I'm not wedded to it, but I think it's currently in-line with WP:COMMONNAME. Cheers  Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:Segoe print;color:blue;"> (blether)  17:40, 23 October 2020 (UTC)