Talk:Margaret of France, Queen of England and Hungary

Untitled
The article is titled "(born 1158)," but the text says she was born in 1157. john k (talk) 19:29, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Marriage?
The ceremony that took place 27 August 1172 in Winchester Cathedral was not a wedding but the coronation, by the bishop of Evreux, of Henry and Marguerite as king and queen of England. The first time Henry was crowned was without Marguerite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chuckw-nj (talk • contribs) 07:11, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved to Margaret of France, Queen of England and Hungary Peter Karlsen (talk) 17:13, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Margaret of France (1158–1197) → ? — The article says she was born in 1157, so the current title may be wrong. DrKiernan (talk) 09:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Move to Margaret of France, Queen of Hungary

 * Support - she is the only Margaret of France who served as Queen of Hungary. Let's be honest: is she more recognizable as a queen or as someone who lived somewhere between 1158 and 1197? Surtsicna (talk) 13:01, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Support. as above. john k (talk) 13:32, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Support. Or even 'Margaret of France, Queen of England and Hungary' would be preferred, she was Queen Consort of England three years longer than of Hungary after all. [tk]   XANDERLIPTAK  13:33, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Support, indeed prefer the form that mentions both countries, if it's not too much of a stretch to apply "Queen of England" to a junior consort like this.--Kotniski (talk) 11:13, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Support. Much clearer and conforms to a common convention in the literature. --Bermicourt (talk) 16:57, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

She's not Norman... nor English ... nor Hungarian...
She's the Queen of England by marriage - that doesn't make her English. Nor Norman. Nor does her marriage to the Hungarian king make her Hungarian... Ealdgyth - Talk 14:01, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

The categories track nationalities, not ethnicity or descent. That the parent category is Category:12th-century women by nationality seems to be overlooked. Dimadick (talk) 14:03, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't think 'Norman' is a nationality in the sense that you mean it. Celia Homeford (talk) 14:07, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Actually, it generally is considered one. Or else there are a bunch of historians who are confused when they write books like David Crouch's The Normans. Whether marriage makes one a member of a dynasty is a bit more up in the air - but the category Category:12th-century Norman women is definitely in the category tree for Category:Normans by century which is in Category:People by nationality and century. This leaves aside that Margaret is still in Hungarian women and English women also... Ealdgyth - Talk 14:11, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Because the nationality is covers is the Duchy of Normandy, and these are the Category:Duchesses of Normandy. I didn't add dynastic categories. because I didn't check on the ancestry of everyone involved and whether we have specific categories on their dynasties. Dimadick (talk) 14:17, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Marriage does not make one a member of an ethnicity though... you really DO need to read the article to see if a category is supported by the article itself. Nothing in the article supports her ethnicity as being English or Norman or Hungarian, all categories she's in. He father was the French king... so yeah, she's French. Just because there's a "Queen consort of Hungary" (or similar) category does not mean that an ethnicity category is supported also. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:23, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Again, we don't categorize by "ethnicity" (ethnic group), but by nationality: "a legal relationship between an individual person and a state. Nationality affords the state jurisdiction over the person and affords the person the protection of the state. What these rights and duties are varies from state to state." Dimadick (talk) 14:52, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Nationality as such does not exist in the middle ages... there is not such a thing as citizenship nor "state jurisdiction". For that matter, there's not nation states either. You've got ethnicity and ... nothing. Applying THAT sort of nationality test is likewise anachronistic, actually it's worse than ethnicity. By that standard, no one from medieval Europe fits into any of those categories. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:57, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Where did you see any connection to the Nation state? That depends on ethnicity, and not an allegiance to a state. Dimadick (talk) 15:35, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

I am not as concerned with defining Margaret as a 12th-century Hungarian woman as I am with defining Eleanor of Aquitaine as a 12th century Norman woman. Margaret spent a significant portion of her life in Hungary, so it strikes me not as entirely senseless but as debatable. Surtsicna (talk) 15:55, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * In common usage, describing someone as French refers to their origin. If a man marries a woman from France he would say that he has married a French woman, not an English woman even if she came to live in England. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:44, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * See Category:English people of French descent. Dimadick (talk) 17:04, 25 January 2019 (UTC)