Talk:Mari Lwyd

Pronunciation?
I'm this is such a good article, but many would need help pronouncing the Welsh term Mari Lwyd. Kortoso (talk) 17:20, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Pronunciation (IPA) now added. -- Picapica (talk) 10:28, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Fred Hando
I don't know if the main author ever intends to take this to FAC but, if they do, Fred Hando wrote quite extensively on the tradition in a number of his articles for the South Wales Argus, in the period 1922 to 1970. I have the sources if they would be of any help. KJP1 (talk) 06:33, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the tip! Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:05, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, he's mentioned in this blog from "Usk Chimps", dated 19 Jan 2014, which shows his 1951 drawing of the painting on Llanover Post Office, depicting a visit by the Mari Llwyd. Some other interesting links and pictures there also. More than one of Hando's book pieces (Hando, 1944, p.101, and Hando, 1951, pp.22-28) covered the Mari Lwyd, so maybe he deserves a mention. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:58, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Recent additions
- I'm struggling a bit with the recent additions to the article by User:Hogyncymru. In brief, they don't seen to make much sense. The quotebox from the Hereford Times appears to be part of a sentence and to be missing something. The paragraph on the visit of the Prince of Orange, also sourced to the Hereford Times, is even more confusing:
 * "In 1860, under the care of Lord Llanover, William, Prince of Orange visited Abergavenny" - was the Prince ill? Was Lord Llanover a doctor? I think it means "while a guest of", but can't be sure.
 * "through his journey, he visited one of Lord Llanover's inns" - aside from the use of "visited" twice in seven words, what purpose is "through his journey" serving? And the reference to Lord Llanover's inn raises more questions than it answers. Lady Llanover was a noted abstainer. Was this one of her Temperance inns?
 * "he became fixated by a painting of Mari Lwyd. his intention upon learning of this was to promote it" - aside from the poor grammar, this is incomprehensible. What did the Prince learn? What did he intend to promote and how?

I understand every article on Wikipedia can be improved, but I think particular care should be taken with GA/FA articles. I'm really not sure that the recent additions are an improvement to this GA. KJP1 (talk) 08:26, 30 December 2022 (UTC)


 * If you have an account, you can access the original at britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk. It looks like the report was on pages 9 and 10, but you need a subscription to read it. Seems it was indeed Llanover's temperance hotel. 86.187.169.23 (talk) 09:57, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
 * indeed Hogyncymru (talk) 13:15, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I don’t have such an account. However, the onus is on the editor who includes the material to make sure that it is clear, and grammatically correct. KJP1 (talk) 13:55, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
 * This is fine, however, what I continuously find on wiki are editors who are quick to delete content instead of re-editing the content to make it sound better, removing very important details that could benefit the content, thus; give readers a better understanding of historical events, I wished more editors would ask politely for content and if they do not have access to a site via a paywall, that other editors supply them with a screenshot so that they can look through it and write a better conclusion.
 * https://i.imgur.com/H4WDrSF.jpg please check this link to read the whole article.. I made some edits to it (green highlight for certain activities, orange for the Mari Lwyd section.. it's also been dissected to make it easier to read).. however, nothing has been omitted. Hogyncymru (talk) 20:58, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Ok, let me go through a few things.
 * Primary sources - you've taken a primary source, which we are advised to use only with care;
 * No original research - you've then attempted to interpret the source, which we are explicitly told not to do; "Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself";
 * In my interpretation, you've completely misunderstood it. The relevant part says: "Here H.R.H.'s attention was attracted by the curious painting of the "Mari Llwyd," at Lord Llanover's temperance inn, the Pen Ceffyl, and on hearing the object it was intended to promote, he graciously entered the kitchen, where a respectable Welsh party were preparing tea..." I am pretty confident that the word "promote" relates not to the Mari Llywd, but to the Pen Ceffyl, and that the section actually means something like, "Then, H.R.H visited Lord Llanover's temperance inn and was struck by its painting of the Mari Llwyd. Lady Llanover having informed him of the inn's objective, namely the promotion of abstinence, he agreed to go inside where he encountered some respectable Welsh people enjoying tea" (as opposed to disreputable Welsh people getting drunk).
 * You've then taken your misinterpretation and written this; "under the care of Lord Llanover, William, Prince of Orange visited Abergavenny, through his journey, he visited one of Lord Llanover's inns called "Pen Ceffyl" ('Horse's head'), whilst there, he became fixated by a painting of Mari Lwyd. his intention upon learning of this was to promote it." It's not completely clear what you meant that to say, but a rough translation would be something like; "H.R.H became so obsessed by the image of the Mari Llwyd that he subsequently worked to promote it". Which, as outlined above, isn't at all what the primary source you've used said.
 * It is, of course, possible that my interpretation of the source is completely wrong, and that yours is right. Or that we are both wrong, and there is a correct, third, interpretation. That is exactly why we shouldn't be using primary sources in the way that you've done.
 * The encyclopaedia of everything - Finally, we're not attempting to be the encyclopaedia of everything. We're supposed to use a summary style and "avoid creating lists of miscellaneous information". Your approach leads to Gwrych Castle, which is an unreadable dog's breakfast of badly written, and poorly sourced, trivia.

As I'm keen that this Good Article doesn't go down the same route, I'm proposing to delete your additions. I'll hold off for a few days as there may be other views. The above is rather blunt and will likely offend you. I'm sorry for that but I really think that your additions make this article worse rather than better. KJP1 (talk) 06:51, 31 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I tend to agree with that interpretation. In which case, this single unattributed painting of a Mari Llwyd, in the Nag's Head in Llanover, is wholly incidental to the newspaper report. This article need not enumerate all the paintings of the Mari Llwyd that existed in pubs 180 years ago, whether Prince William of Orange saw them or not. 86.187.232.13 (talk) 09:59, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Why bring Gwrych into the conversation, at no point did I include that into this article, also why are you insulting other editors?.Hogyncymru (talk) 17:23, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

I have reverted the recent addition as they are contentious; they can be restored should consensus emerge here at the Talk Page. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:49, 31 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I can respect this, KJP1's attitude towards other editors are to be desired, but as long as the consensus is to not include them, then so be it, regards. Hogyncymru (talk) 17:49, 31 December 2022 (UTC)