Talk:Maria Josepha of Saxony, Dauphine of France

Untitled
Considering her husband Louis, dauphin de France never became king, since he died before his father did, shouldn't the article's name revert to her maiden form, since the Wikipedia convention on queen consorts would not apply here? Gryffindor 17:13, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The difficult question is which title did she have as an offspring of an elector-prince? I found one reference here, a book from 1747 where she is called "Princessin Maria Josepha". Gryffindor  17:31, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, as the daughter of a king, it seems she would be a princess. However, there were no Princesses of Poland. Generally, such women were princesses because their fathers were princes in addition to being kings. At some point, the Saxons assumed the title of prince with regard to the position of the Elector as King of Poland, however, there was a year when this started which I cannot remember. She was definitely a Duchess in Saxony and coloquially a princess. I would rather not have her titled princess until it can be determined if it is accurate, however it would be better than what we have here now. Charles 17:43, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, I just received enormous information courtesy StanZegel and Lethiere, who seem very knowledgeable in this area. I will post their replies from my talk page here to make it easier for communication. Gryffindor  07:56, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

''Kurfürst was a personal dignity, held by one king, one one duke, one markgraf and one pfalzgraf (plus three archbishops). The legitimate children of each would take their father's principal title, so the daughter of the Duke of Saxony (who was also a Kurfürst) would be styled a duchess or Herzogin until her marriage, at which time she would take the rank of her husband. In the case of Marie-Josèphe of Saxony, that fact that the duke who was her father was also the elected King of Poland is, I believe, irrelevant because the throne was not hereditary so her generation had no claim to the transitory royal status, only the persistent ducal status. --StanZegel  (talk) 20:07, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Although I agree that Kurfürst was an office that could only be held by one prince at a time, it was, after all, hereditary. The electoral dynasties gradually adopted the princely title for their cadets until, by the early 19th century, most of their daughters used princess rather than duchess, margravine or countess palatine (Pfalzgräfin), e.g. daughters of the Electors of Hesse(-Kassel), who alone continued to use Kurfürst'' as their monarchical title until they ceased to reign in 1866.


 * According to the 1961 Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels Fürstliche Häuser Band VI, Page 19, Marie-Josèphe's elder sister, Marie Amalie (1724-1760), prior to her 1738 marriage to King Carlos III of Spain, was titled (in abbreviation) "Przssin v. Sachsen". Although the Handbuch is not flawless, it does research and record titulature as well as genealogy, whereas the Online Gotha focuses on genealogy more than correct titulature, particularly for previous centuries (the Handbuch is considered the modern incarnation of the original Almanach de Gotha, not to be confused with the current series of that name, which is error-prone as well as hopelessly POV). The only authority that is arguably more accurate on historical titles than the Handbuch is Michel Huberty's "L'Allemagne Dynastique''" (AD), which always cites precise, contemporary sources, and begins each volume with a section outlining the history of the dynasty's exact titles. But I don't have a copy of Huberty's volume on Saxony, which is out of print. However, another of Marie-Josèphe's sisters, Marie-Anne (1728-1797), can be found on p. 278 of AD's 1985 Tome IV on the Wittelsbachs, which records her marriage to the Elector Maximilian III of Bavaria. There it is noted that she was the daughter of "Frédéric II, Electeur de Saxe et Roi de Pologne", and her title is given as "princesse de Saxe". Where the Handbuch and AD agree on a title, I have yet to find error! Lethiere 04:22, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Right, my understanding is that her title before her marriage was "Princess" or "Princesse de Saxe", can we all agree on this? Gryffindor  17:03, 6 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I would rather be certain, as I know there is disparity on what people say about Saxon titles in the 18th and 19th centuries, but the title of Princess sounds fine. If not, it can go here: Duchess Marie-Josèphe of Saxony. Charles 19:52, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I have a question here. Why was the name of this article changed from princess to duchess of Saxony? I see no reason for such a change based upon the information on the talk page. Here is further evidence for the use of the title of princess: an English translation of a letter written in French from the future Dauphine's illegitimate uncle, Maurice de Saxe, to her mother. In the letter, Marie Josèphe is described as a princess: "Madame, the Most Christian King sent me word yesterday, that he had requested Your Majesty for the hand of the Princess Marie Josèphe for Monseigneur the Dauphin."

As a consequence, I have renamed the article.BoBo (talk) 01:10, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Just a remarc: It does not matter how she was refferred to in private letters and such; the question is her formal title in the eyes of the law. The answer to if she was a duchess or a princess can be found in formal documents, and that is were one should look. --85.226.47.10 (talk) 13:33, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I disagree with the move and therefore I've reverted it. I moved the article from Marie-Josèphe of Saxony to Duchess Maria Josepha of Saxony. The article was never called Princess Maria Josepha of Saxony. It should stay here until consensus is reached (you can propose the move if you wish). The article oughts to be at Duchess Maria Josepha of Saxony because Saxony was neither principality nor kingdom during her lifetime, and therefore she was never a Princess of Saxony. Calling her Princess Maria Josepha of Saxony is simply inaccurate. We know who Princess Maria Josepha of Saxony was; she was the daughter of King of Saxony and mother of the last Emperor of Austria, while this woman was the daughter of Elector and Duke of Saxony.


 * She never held the title of Princess, even though she was sometimes described as a princess. It was not uncommon to refer to any person of imperial, royal, or noble ancestry as prince or princess, event if they didn't hold the princely title. For example, dukes and duchesses in the peerages of England, Scotland, Great Britain, Ireland, and the United Kingdom hold the style of Most High, Potent, and Noble Prince, but would you move Charles Spencer-Churchill, 9th Duke of Marlborough to Prince Charles Spencer-Churchill, 9th Duke of Marlborough? King Edward VI's proclamation refers to Edward VI's father as the most excellent high and mighty prince, King Henry VIII. See also Prince of the Church. There are many more examples. The fact is that daughters and daughters-in-law of the Dukes of Saxony held the title Duchess of Saxony, not Princess of Saxony. Surtsicna (talk) 13:45, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Your citation mentions Princess Marie Josèphe, but not Princess Marie Josèphe of Saxony. It's possible that she was unofficially and/or coloquially known as Princess Maria Josepha as daughter of King of Poland, but she was certainly not a Princess of Saxony. Surtsicna (talk) 14:45, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the only way to really solve this problem is to refer to original documents. I have provided evidence that her own family described her as a princess prior to her marriage. StanZegel and Lethiere have also provided information that available historical sources have referred to her sisters as princesses of Saxony. As a result, it would appear to me that she was considered a princess of Saxony. I think the burden of proof is now on those who claim that Marie-Josèphe and her sisters were mere duchesses by birth. They need to find actual historical documents from the era that actually refer to the Saxon princesses as duchesses. As a reminder, I think it is important to note that 18th century European royalty, especially German royalty, was highly rigid in its use of titles and rank. I can't imagine the inappropriate use of the title princess by the ruling Saxon family being allowed by foreign diplomats as is being claimed by some here. BoBo (talk) 15:18, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * First of all, a duchess by birth (let alone daughter of an elector) ranks higher than a non-royal princess. I believe that StanZegel exact words were: The legitimate children of each would take their father's principal title, so the daughter of the Duke of Saxony (who was also a Kurfürst) would be styled a duchess or Herzogin until her marriage, at which time she would take the rank of her husband. In the case of Marie-Josèphe of Saxony, that fact that the duke who was her father was also the elected King of Poland is, I believe, irrelevant because the throne was not hereditary so her generation had no claim to the transitory royal status, only the persistent ducal status. This seems to confirm that Maria Josepha was a Duchess of Saxony. Am I missing something? Also, Lethiere said that the electoral dynasties gradually adopted the princely title for their cadets until, by the early 19th century, most of their daughters used princess rather than duchess - and we all know that Maria Josepha married in 1747. Maria Josepha undisputedly had right to the title of duchess, while her right to use the title of princess (which is lesser than duchess) is uncertain. For that reason, please don't move the article until we reach some sort of consensus. Surtsicna (talk) 15:47, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not true that "StanZegel and Lethiere have provided information that available historical sources have referred to her sisters as princesses of Saxony". Lethiere has provided only one source that refers to only one of her sisters as Princesse de Saxe. Surtsicna (talk) 15:54, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Foreign diplomats would certainly have nothing against the use of the title princess by the ruling Saxon family, sinc ethe the title duchess outranks the title princess. I would also like to ask you to refer to me by my user name, not as some here. Thank you. Surtsicna (talk) 15:57, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I have discovered a letter written in 1764 (during Marie-Josèphe's lifetime) by Marie-Antoinette's older brother, the future Holy Roman Emperor Joseph II, concerning Marie-Josèphe's sister Kunigunde in which he refers to her expressly as a princess of Saxony:

"Princess Kunigunde of Saxony, according to Their Majesties who have looked at her in detail, has a mature, solid and virtuous character..."


 * I doubt seriously that the heir to the Holy Roman Empire would describe a mere duchess of Saxony as a princess. It should be noted that he specifically refers to her mother as an electress. That seems to me to go against the flat (and unproven) statement that children of electors were not born princes and princesses. BoBo (talk) 15:58, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Here is another letter which emphatically refers to Marie-Josèphe as a princess and not a duchess. It was written in 1746 by her future father-in-law, King Louis XV of France to her father:

"All that has reached me of the good qualities, the virtues, and the nobility of character of the Princess Marie Josèphe, Your daughter, induces me to intimate to You without delay my desire to obtain her as the wife of the Dauphin."


 * Why would the King of France refer to Marie Josèphe as a princess if she was not? I have now provided two letters of the time prior to her marriage (one from her uncle, the other from her future father-in-law) that refer to her as a princess. I have also provided a letter from a future Holy Roman Emperor which refers specifically to her younger sister as a Princess of Saxony. So far, no one has provided any evidence to show that within the the diplomatic world of Paris, Dresden and Vienna that Marie Josèphe was not considered a princess prior to her marriage. BoBo (talk) 16:24, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I am not sure if you understand that a duchess ranks higher than a non-royal princess (we'll certainly agree that Maria Josepha was not royal prior to her marriage). Another reason why this page should not be moved to Princess Maria Josepha of Saxony is because Princess Maria Josepha of Saxony is the name by which the mother of the last Emperor of Austria is generally known. Movin this article to Princess Maria Josepha of Saxony would recquire parenthetical disambiguation which is unnecessary in this case and generally undesirable. Surtsicna (talk) 16:17, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It is better to use parenthetical disambiguation than to spread false information by referring to her by a title that was not used to refer to her during her lifetime.BoBo (talk) 16:40, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Why give Maria Josepha of Saxony a rank in the title of the article? Whether she was called *princess* or *duchess* probably depended on the nationality (German, Polish or French) of the persons addressing her or writing about her, and on the time in her life when she was being addressed.

The titles in German & French wikipedia:


 * German: Maria Josepha Carolina von Sachsen http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Josepha_Carolina_von_Sachsen,
 * opening sentence: '"Prinzessin" Maria Josepha Karolina Eleonore Franziska Xaveria von :Polen und Sachsen (* 4. November 1731 in Dresden; † 13. März 1767 in Paris) war durch Heirat :Kronprinzessin (Dauphine) von Frankreich.''


 * French: Marie-Josèphe de Saxe http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie-Jos%C3%A8phe_de_Saxe,
 * opening sentence Marie-Josèphe de Saxe (Maria Josepha Carolina Eleonore Françoise Xavière von :Sachsen, 1731 - 1767), fille d'Auguste III Roi de Pologne et Electeur de Saxe et de Marie-Josèphe :d'Autriche. Elle épousa en 1747, le Dauphin Louis-Ferdinand de France, fils de Louis XV...

The rank by which she is known in history is *Dauphine de France*, and this on-going battle for the rank to give her in the title of the article seems superfluous. Frania W. (talk) 16:23, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Frania, what started this problem was, as far as I can tell, was an inaccurate move in title of this article. As I have shown, her uncle and father-in-law regarded her title prior to marriage as princess, not duchess. To include the title duchess in the title or article would be spreading false information on how she was referred prior to her marriage. In general, I think she should be referred to by her married position: Dauphine. BoBo (talk) 16:34, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * BoBO, this discussion started two years ago and a consensus was reached: Duchess Marie-Josèphe of Saxony. You're the one who started the dispute two years after it was ended with a consensus to move the article to Duchess Marie-Josèphe of Saxony. Surtsicna (talk) 16:40, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Consensus does not equal reality. I have provided three letters from the 18th century to prove that the consensus reached was wrong. Marie Josèphe's family (uncle and father-in-law) referred to her as a princess. Her sister, the prospective bride of the heir to the Holy Roman Empire, was also referred to as a princess. Consensus should not be allowed to stand if it all it does is perpetuates a lie. Anyone who wants to continue the use of the title duchess in reference to Marie Josèphe needs to provide some 18th century documentation.BoBo (talk) 16:46, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Bobo & Surtsicna: I have not followed the argument from the beginning as I fell upon the article recently; this allows me to see it with a fresh look. Before giving my opinion above, I checked the various wiki articles, keeping in mind that Wikipedia is not the Bible (!) and that mistakes are rampant. I also checked in Louis XVI by Évelyne Lever (Fayard 1985), and Louis XV by Michel Antoine (Fayard 1989), where she is as *Marie Josèphe de Saxe, troisième fille de l'électeur de Saxe, roi de Pologne, Auguste III*. When not mentioned by her name Marie Joséphe, the word *princesse* is used. Nowhere is there *duchesse*.

Here are a few lines from E. Lever's book, p. 18:
 * Élevée par sa mère Marie-Josèphe d'Autriche, la *princesse* a le sens du devoir. Son éducation, infiniment plus soignée que celle du dauphin...

From Michel Antoine's Louis XV, p. 395:
 * Le mariage ultérieur du Dauphin et d'une *princesse* de Saxe n'incita nullement Louis XV...

No where is Maria Josepha mentioned as a *duchesse*, but as a *princesse* before her marriage to the Dauphin, and after the marriage, always as *Dauphine de France*.

Frania W. (talk) 17:20, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * BoBO: I never said that consensus equals reality. I just have to correct you all the time because you seem to forget the facts very often. (PS: the title of Holy Roman Emperor was not hereditary and therefore Joseh was never "heir" to the Holy Roman Emire)
 * At the risk of starting another discussion, although the Holy Roman Empire was technically an elected monarchy, after the Treaty of Dresden in 1745, which resolved many issues between Prussia, Saxony and Austria due to the War of the Austrian Succession, I doubt seriously that anyone in the European diplomatic milieu regarded the Holy Roman Empire as anything but a hereditary monarchy. Although the Archduke Joseph may not have been the de jure heir of the Holy Roman Empire, he was most definitely regarded as the de facto heir. BoBo (talk) 00:22, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * BoBo and Frania: You've convinced me that this woman used the title Princess of Saxony. I've checked and it seems that her siblings also used the title Prince/Princess of Saxony, although members of the House of Wettin used the title Duke/Duchess of Saxony in the seventeenth and sixteenth century (which made me think that Maria Josepha's generation used ducal title as well). Surtsicna (talk) 17:43, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I am to take it, then, that you now support the renaming of this article? BoBo (talk) 00:22, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I stand corrected and I do support the renaming of this article. Shall we also rename articles about her siblings? Surtsicna (talk) 11:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I think parenthetical disambiguation is the only way to go since there is already both a Maria Josepha of Saxony and a Princess Maria Josepha of Saxony. My solution would be similar to Frania's suggested one. I think the article should be renamed Maria Josepha of Saxony (1731-1767). The articles about her siblings should be similarly adjusted not to mention the titles of prince or princess. Those titles can be included in the first sentence of each article. BoBo (talk) 22:51, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Expansion
I have just expanded this article and added more pictures, I hope it helps. User:Daniel_Chiswick 29 March, 2007 (UTC)

Princess or duchess
Did Maria Josepha have the title Prinzessin von Sachsen (Princess of Saxony)? Definitely not. Please look at an authoritative work such as the Almanach de Gotha (available here). It is clear that even as late as the early nineteenth-century the cadets of the Albertine branch of the House of Wettin used the title Herzog/Herzogin not the title Prinz/Prinzessin.

Was Maria Josepha ever referred to with the title of princess? Yes. It is possible that an argument could be made to rename her article based on English-language usage - but I have not seen any evidence so far. French-language usage is an appropriate consideration in French Wikipedia, but not English Wikipedia. Noel S McFerran (talk) 02:03, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Even as late as 1831 the cadets of the Albertine branch were known as dukes (not princes) of Saxony, cf. the 1831 constitution of Saxony which is issued in the names of the king and of the heir to the throne, "Wir, Anton, von Gottes Gnaden König von Sachsen, etc., etc., etc., und Friedrich August, Herzog zu Sachsen". Certainly by 1837 (the year in which the house law was issued) the cadets are known as princes of Saxony. Noel S McFerran (talk) 03:14, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * As evidenced by the letters I have listed above by Maurice de Saxe, Louis XV of France and Holy Roman Emperor Joseph II, various 18th Century rulers of Saxony, France and Austria all considered the children of Augustus III of Poland to be princes and princesses, not dukes or duchesses. Unless actual letters from members of those 18th Century families or their diplomatic envoys can be produced which can conclusively show otherwise, I think it has to be accepted that within the diplomatic world of 18th century Dresden, Paris and Vienna, the children of Augustus III of Poland were referred to in their lifetimes as princes and princesses. BoBo (talk) 04:06, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * As far as I can tell, Noel S McFerran (talk), you are the only person to offer a source that implies that the children of Augustus III of Poland may not have been called princes or princesses. As Frania has pointed out, neither French or German Wikipedia call Marie-Josèphe a duchess prior to her marriage. She also points out that French author Évelyne Lever refers to Marie-Josèphe only as a princesse. In addition, I have given three English-speaking sources that call either Marie-Josèphe or one of her sisters a princess. I am now giving you a fourth English-speaking source that specifically refers to the children of Augustus III of Poland as princes and princesses. In Hubert Cole's 1964 biography of Louis François Armand du Plessis, duc de Richelieu titled First Gentleman of the Bedchamber, he writes on page 166:

"...the young Dauphine descended the palace steps with Richelieu on one side, and the commander-in-chief of her father's Polish army on the other. Her mother, her sister, the princess Maria Amalia, and her brothers, the princes Xavier and Karl, burst into tears..." BoBo (talk) 10:53, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * My point now is that, besides the children of Augustus III of Poland being considered princes and princesses by 18th Century royalty (Louis XV and Joseph II), they are also considered princes and princesses in modern English-speaking literature. It would be interesting if you could find a modern biography that explicitly refers to any of them in their youth prior to marriage as solely dukes or duchesses. BoBo (talk) 11:07, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I do not dispute that Maria Josepha is called "a princess" in many works both English-language and French-language. What is, however, clear is that she did not have the title "Princess of Saxony", a title not used until the nineteenth-century. Please look at the Almanach de Gotha to see that all the cadets of the Albertine branch of the House of Wettin were styled duke/duchess (and not prince/princess) until the 1830s.

The use in French-language letters of the term princesse in reference to Maria Josepha does not change the facts about the title she actually held. In a similar way, Maria Josepha's husband the Dauphin Louis is often referred to in passing in various works as "a prince"; that does not mean, however, that he had the title "Prince of France". Noel S McFerran (talk) 14:39, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Noel S McFerran (talk), you are clearly overlooking the fact that not only do modern English and French authors describe Marie-Josèphe as a princess so do her own relatives, Maurice de Saxe and Louis XV of France. I have previously linked to two letters ( and ) that explicitly refer to the future dauphine as Princess Marie-Josèphe, not Duchess Marie-Josèphe. Are you saying that Maurice de Saxe and King Louis XV of France didn't know the proper way to refer to members of their own families? In addition, you neglect the letter written by the future Holy Roman Emperor Joseph II that clearly calls Marie-Josèphe's younger sister, Princess Kunigunde of Saxony. I think this clearly points to the conclusion that the European rulers of the 18th Century regarded the daughters (including the unmarried ones like Kunigunde) of Augustus III of Poland to be Princesses of Saxony. BoBo (talk) 19:46, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 1. The Wikipedia naming conventions clearly state that only the consorts of a king or an emperor have articles with no noble title in the title of the article. If you want to change that convention, please discuss it on the correct talk page.
 * 2. Please look at an authoritative work about titles and styles (like the Almanach de Gotha). Letters, including those from royalty, are notoriously inaccurate when it comes to titles.  A very similar case is Clementina Sobieski.  She is commonly called "Princess Clementina Sobieski" (or Sobieska) in spite of the fact that the family had never ever received the title "prince".  The reason is exactly the same as with Maria Anna Sophia.  Augustus III was the elected king of Poland as was the grandfather of Clementina, John III Sobieski.  The daughters of Augustus III and the granddaughters of John III are therefore sometimes referred to - especially in popular writing like letters - as "princess".
 * 3. In addition to an authoritative work like the Almanach de Gotha, please look at an official text such as the 1831 Saxon constitution where the heir to the throne is styled not "prince" or "crown prince" von Sachsen, but instead as "Herzog zu Sachsen".
 * 4. It would be perfectly reasonable for the article to include an explanation that Maria Josepha is often called "princess" in spite of the fact that she did not actually have that title. Noel S McFerran (talk) 21:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I think all of your points can be debated:


 * 1. As far the Wikipedia naming conventions are concerned, because I have provided ample evidence from the 18th Century that the sisters of Marie-Josèphe were described within their family milieu as princesses, it can be argued that the correct name of one of the articles on her sisters should be Princess Maria Anna Sophia of Saxony, not Duchess Maria Anna Sophia of Saxony. In fact, here are two German sites which directly call Marie-Josèphe's sister Maria Anna, Princess Maria Anna of Saxony. They are from two of the palaces that played a central role in the sister's life: Schloss Pillnitz in Saxony where she married and Schloss Nymphenburg in Bavaria where she lived after her marriage. Both describe her as Prinzessin Maria Anna von Sachsen, not Herzogin Maria Anna von Sachsen:

1)http://www.kamelie-pillnitz.de/index.php?entry_id=9&lang=en&lang=de

2)http://www.nymphenburg.com/de/nymphenburg/history/house-of-wittelsbach/kurfuerst-max-iii-joseph.html

It would appear that besides Maurice de Saxe, Louis XV of France and Joseph II, modern Saxon and Bavarian Germans regard the daughters of Augustus III of Poland as Princesses of Saxony. It has now been presented to you in English, French and German, that no one called these young ladies duchesses. You yourself have provided no evidence, 18th Century or modern, that directly calls any of the daughters duchesses. For good measure, here is an Italian source to show that in Italy that they too call the daughters princesses. In it, the wife of Charles III of Spain is called Princess Maria Amalia of Saxony in English and S.R.M. Di Maria Amalia Regina Delle Due Sicilie Principessa Di Polonia, E Sassonia in Italian:

http://www.racollection.org.uk/ixbin/indexplus?_IXACTION_=file&_IXFILE_=templates/full/person.html&_IXTRAIL_=Names%C2%A0A-Z&person=9793


 * 2. The Almanach de Gotha was not always considered accurate in its earlier editions. The Wikipedia article on it clearly relates how it was considered biased by some, including Napoleon Bonaparte.
 * 3. It is possible that the Saxon constitution you note does not accurately reflect the titles and styles used by the ruling family of Saxony in the 18th Century. As I have repeatedly mentioned, you have been unable to produce even one source that explicitly describes any of Augustus III of Poland's daughters as duchesses before their marriages. I, however, have produced multiple sources in more than one language that calls them princesses.
 * 4. Why mention a fact you have not proven? You have not proven that any of August III of Poland's daughters were not born princesses. As I have said before, where are some direct references to the young ladies as duchesses? BoBo (talk) 23:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Hello! This is Frania.

Are we trying to split the atom here ???

(1) From German Wikipedia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurf%C3%BCrstentum_Sachsen

Das Kurfürstentum Sachsen (Kursachsen, veraltet: Chursachsen) war ein Territorium des Heiligen Römischen Reiches Deutscher Nation.

''Das Territorium entstand durch die *Erhebung* des *Herzogtum Sachsen-Wittenberg* zum *Kurfürstentum* durch Kaiser Karl IV. in der Goldenen Bulle von 1356. Es existierte in der Zeit von 1356 bis 1806. Das Kurfürstentum Sachsen war der *Nachfolgestaat* des Herzogtums Sachsen-Wittenberg und ging 1806 in dem neu entstandenen Königreich Sachsen auf.''

Herzogtum Sachsen-Wittenberg = *Duchy of Saxony-Wittenberg* was elevated to Kurfürstentum = *Electorate of Saxony* in 1356.

Kurfürstentum is governed by a *Kurfürst* = *Prince Elector* *Fürst* = *Prince*.

That is where the word *Prince* came to be applied to the *Herzog*. So whether the Prince-Elector of Saxony is in fact a Duke or a Prince is something we can argue about until we run out of breath.

(2) Here is a copy/paste from the Almanach de Gotha http://almanachdegotha.org/_wsn/page4.html to which Noel S. McFerran is referring us:

e) Louis, Dauphin de Viennois (Versailles 4 Sep 1729-Fontainebleau 20 Dec 1765); m.1st by proxy at Madrid 18 Dec 1744 and in person at Versailles 23 Feb 1745 Infanta Maria Teresa of Spain (Madrid 11 Jun 1726-Versailles 22 Jul 1746); m.2d by proxy at Dresden 10 Jan 1747 and in person at Versailles 9 Feb 1747 Josepha Pss of Saxony (Dresden 4 Nov 1731-Versailles 13 Mar 1767)

If I am not mistaken, *Pss* stands for *Princess*.

Frania W. (talk) 00:41, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Here is another copy/paste from the Almanach de Gotha http://almanachdegotha.org/_wsn/page3.html :

V. Marie Christine Johanna Josephe Antonie (Vienna 13 May 1742-Vienna 24 Jun 1798); m.Vienna 7/8 Apr 1766 Albert Pr of Saxony, Duke of Teschen (Moritzburg 11 Jul 1738-Vienna 10 Feb 1822)

Marie Christine is Marie Antoinette's older sister. Albert is Marie-Josèphe's younger brother. He is described as *Pr* (Prince) of Saxony.

BoBo (talk) 03:03, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Here is the page in German Wikipedia concerning Augustus III of Poland:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_III._(Polen)


 * It should be noted that all of his children, including Marie-Josephe, are listed as princes/princesses of Poland and Saxony. Marie-Josèphe is described as Königliche Prinzessin von Polen und Prinzessin von Sachsen, as are all of her sisters. At this point, I am in favor of renaming this article, Princess Maria Josepha of Saxony (1731-1767), in accordance with the Wikipedia naming policy that Noel S McFerran (talk) mentions earlier. BoBo (talk) 03:46, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Reputable sources
I have repeatedly asked other editors to look at reputable sources such as the Almanach de Gotha and even given a link to a site which includes the full-text of most volumes. Perhaps I should not be surprised when an editor mentions the website almanachdegotha.org. This is DEFINITELY NOT the source to which I referred; anybody with the slightest knowledge of noble titles would know that. The website is a totally unscholarly and quite amateurish production. The books, even with their biases and errors (present in virtually all published works), are still recognised as THE source about European royalty. Noel S McFerran (talk) 14:05, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I think Noel S McFerran (talk) is being evasive. Once again, he is not offering any 18th Century proof that the children of Augustus III of Poland were not princes and princesses. In fact, the 1821 edition of the Almanach de Gotha (the earliest edition available on the site he links to) explicitly describes one brother of Marie-Josèphe as a prince and one sister as a princess:

"Roi Frédéric Auguste, n. 23. Dec. 1750, succ. à son père l'Electeur Frédéric Chrét. 17. Dec. 1763, sous la tutele de son Oncle le Prince Xavier, prend lui même le Gouvernement, 15. Sept. 1765...""

"2. Marie Cuenégonde, n. 10 Nov. 1740, Princesse Abbesse des Chapit. sécularisés d'Essen et Thorn." 

The source also describes another brother, Prince Albert of Saxony, Duke of Teschen as a duke:

"1. D. Albert, Duc de Saxe-Teschen, n. 11. Juill. 1738. Feldmaréchal de l'Empereur d'Autriche. Veuf le 24. Juin. 1798, de Marie Christine, F. de l'Empereur Romain François I." 

It is unclear, however, if the title "duc" refers to Albert's birth title or title as the Duke of Teschen.

17:31, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion: change picture of Maria Antonia
The portrait of Maria Antonia was painted when she was queen of France, and known by the name of Marie Antoinette. In her page there is a portrait of her at 12 that would be more accurate Analogica (talk) 04:21, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

She wasn't a princess of Poland!
Every elected king of Poland had to sign the Henrician Articles. By that he vowed, among others, that his children would never be stylized princes or princesses of Poland. Neither by birth nor by rank. Simply not at all. In Poland she'd be called "królewna" meaning king's daughter, just like "kowalówna" is a smith's daughter. It's not a title.

I edited relevant parts of the article to remove the "Princess of Poland" bit. --85.222.86.36 (talk) 05:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC)