Talk:Maria Theresa Asmar

Ancestry
As far as the author's ancestry is concerned, Maria describes her birthplace as follows: "My birth in 1804, amidst the Ruins of Nineveh" (see. p. 1). Although this reference is ambiguous, the likely candidate would be Tel-Kuyunjiq or Tel-Nabi-Yunus (opposite Mosul) where an East-Syriac Christian community was concentrated at the time. The author's supposed birthplace being Tel-Keppe is unconfirmable. There are no "ruins" in Tel-Keppe. Furthermore, Tel-Keppe is over 9 miles away from the "Ruins of Nineveh", thus, rendering the location as erroneous. In fact, Maria, herself, testifies the following: "from Mosul, amid the ruins of Nineveh, in a small village the greater part of which belonged to my father" (see p. 37). This passage further bolsters the connection with Tel-Kuyunjiq or Tel-Nabi-Yunus as the likely candidates. Throughout her memoir, Maria speaks of her expedition to the towns/ districts in Mosul's periphery, one of which was Tel-Keppe. However, careful reading shall demonstrate that the author identifies the "inhabitants of Telkef" (see. p. 101) in third-party. Indeed, today, there exists a family in Tel-Keppe which shares striking resemblance to the author's surname (Asmar) which is quite common in the Middle East. Be this as it may, the modern Asmar family of Tel-Keppe trace their origins to the region of Diyarbakir (modern-day Turkey), and most probably arrived in Tel-Keppe by the early twentieth–century. The modern Asmar family are not connected with Maria.

As far as the author's religious affiliation is concerned, Maria testifies that her family traditionally adhered to the "Christian religion in the Church of Travancore". This community were/are commonly known as St. Thomas Christians, Syrian Christians, or Chaldean Syrian Christians. This latter appellation "Chaldean" most probably arose as a result of the Catholic missions in the region, particularly following the 1552/3 schism within the Church of the East. Upon the family's arrival to Mesopotamia, they undoubtedly became acquainted with the Chaldean Catholic Church which had most probably established itself in Baghdad by the mid nineteenth–century. The author's usage of the appellation "Chaldaic Rite" (see. p. 2) clearly testifies this.

The usage of "Babylonian Princess" is obviously an embellishment and not to be taken in a literal sense. I would also like to add, the author constantly makes reference to "Chaldean tongue" (that is "language"). This is an obvious reference to the Syriac language. Please see refer to the following work regarding the so-called "Chaldean" identity and "Chaldean" language: Statistica con Cenni Storici della Gerarchia e dei Fedeli di Rito Orientale (Rome: S. Cong. pro Ecclesia Orientali, 1932). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Williamcarbone (talk • contribs)

Asmar's Chaldean descent etc.
It is really immature of user Williamcarbone to keep accusing me of vandalism, going as far as telling lies about me at an admin's talk page. Yes Williamcarbone, you did leave a message on my talk page and I removed it, but that was after you did the same thing with the message I left on your talk page.

We do disagree about some things, her birthplace amid the ruins of Nineveh not being one of these things. So I don't understand why you keep bringing it up. Here are the things that differs from our edits:

Firstly the fact that she's not Indian as you claim and certainly not an ethnic Indian – there are many different ethnic groups in India. In describing her origins she writes that according to the tradition of her family, note the word tradition, her ancestors left India for Persia and Mesopotamia centuries ago.

Later in the book, she writes that she's descendent of some Chaldean patriarchs and bishops: "I recollect well my father recounting to me that one of my ancestors, Mor Yusuf the first patriarch of the Chaldean Catholics of that name..." (vol 2 pages 235–236).

The name Chaldean, Chaldean Catholic Church and Chaldean language (Chaldean Neo-Aramaic) are all mentioned plenty of times throughout the book, unlike Indian, Chaldean Syrian Church of India and languages spoken by Indians.

The Chaldean Syrian Church of India is never mentioned and as I have made clear to you many times now, her paternal uncle Basilius "Basil" Asmar, born in Tel Keppe, was a bishop of the Chaldean Catholic Church which is based in Mesopotamia. "My uncle, Mar Basilius Asmar" (vol 2 page 236), "the abovementioned lady is the niece of the illustrious Mar Basilius Asmar, of the nation of Chaldean Catholics" (vol 2 page 318).

Facts weight more than family-tradition. Maria Theresa Asmar's uncle and father were Chaldeans and not Indians. Why wouldn't she be a Chaldean? She did identify as Chaldean.

Another thing we don't agree about is the way her family passed away. You keep reverting my edit claiming some of her family members fell to martyrdom and you yourself claim all but her self fell to the plague. That is simply not true. In page 314 of the second volume, a letter to Asmar from the bishop of the Chaldean town Alqosh, translated from Chaldean Neo-Aramaic, mentions that her father became a martyr. I think it is safe to say her father is part of her family and therefore not all of them fell to the plague.

Lastly, she describes her travels through many countries, including Italy, France and the Great Britain, in great detail. However she doesn't describe her stay in Turkey. Neither does she describes her stay in Greece and Egypt. She explains why in page 58–59 in the second volume. Also she did travel through all of Mesopotamia, which I've kept in my edit, so why insist on keeping Assyria in there? Assyria is part of the region of Mesopotamia. Also why include Assyria and not Chaldea or Babylonia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrKnowItAll-TheOG (talk • contribs)

"Chaldean" Ancestry
I have looked over the pages you have cited, thank you for providing those in this talk page.

As far as the Asmar family is concerned, I will refer to my first discussion. This family originated from south-east Turkey, and Diyarbakır in particular. Mar Joseph IV Lazar Hindi "the Indian" (1759) was a patriarch of the Catholic off-shoot of the Church of the East belonging to the Josephite line. He was a native of south-east Turkey and his hometown was Diyarbakır. In the East-Syriac tradition (to which Chaldean Catholics belong to), Diyarbakır is known as Amid, hence why the see is referred to as "Amid of the Chaldeans". It was this Josephite line that eventually merged with the traditionalist line (under Yohannan VIII Hormizd) in 1830s to form the modern-day Chaldean Catholic Church as we know it. By the mid eighteenth–century, the newly created Chaldean Catholic Church registered itself in the Ottoman Empire as a distinct "religious community", also known as millet in Turkish. The term "millet" also had meant "nation", which would explain why Maria refers to the community as "nation of the Chaldeans". As far as Basilius Asmar is concerned, he was also the Archbishop of Diyarbakır, the family's original hometown. I would also like to note, Maria also claimed descent from Mar Joseph V Augustine Hindi "the Indian" (see. p. 236), who was the successor of Mar Joseph IV Lazar Hindi "the Indian". It is quite possible that they were in fact of a migratory movement which settled in the area of south-east Turkey. Looking at the family names, you can clearly attest that her ancestors were obviously of Indian descent. It is also worth noting that, the name "Asmar" is Arabic and means "brown" or "dark-skinned". The surnames, along with the description provided by the said author attests that the family may have been of east-Asian descent. The author, herself, states: "My ancestors, some centuries ago, according to the tradition of our family, left Travancore for Persia, and finally migrated to Bagdad." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Williamcarbone (talk • contribs)

The factual inaccuracies in this article
As someone who has read Memoirs of a Babylonian Princess, I have been making sure that this article consist of correct information. Yet my edits have been undone many times now by one specific user. I am glad that some of my edits finally have been kept in the revision of this article from 2 December 2021. Yet this version still consist some factual inaccuracies and own interpretations of the book. I'll list them below before I make my changes.

The total amount of pages in both volumes of Maria Theresa Asmar's book are much less than 720. Sitting with the volumes next to me, I can see that the first volume consists of 211 pages and the second 318. That makes a total of 529 pages. I don't find the amount important enough to include in the article and will therefore omit it.

I'm really not sure why Assyria (northern Mesopotamia) and Chaldea (southern Mesopotamia) has to be mentioned at all, when Mesopotamia is already listed in the countries she described. However I don't oppose to that, but would rather formulate it to "describing her travels through her home country Mesopotamia, including Assyria and Chaldea." That way we also mention that Mesopotamia was her home country – she partly grew up in Bagdad and partly in Mosul after all (vol. 1, p. 24).

As explained before, while Asmar indeed visited Turkey, she never describes the country and she explains why in vol. 2 pp. 58–59. Same goes with Egypt (ibid.) and Cyprus (ibid 247–248). She does describe her stay in Italy, France and Great Britain however (the latter part of the second volume takes place in Europe). Therefore I don't understand the persistence of keeping Turkey in this sentence but not the European countries: "describing her travels through Assyria,[2] Chaldea,[3] Mesopotamia,[4] Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine and the harem system used in Turkey." Also she describes the harem system used throughout the Ottoman Empire and not only in Turkey.

Maria Theresa Asmar claims patriarch Joseph I as her ancestor, not Joseph IV Lazar Hindi. "I recollect well my father recounting to me that one of my ancestors, Mor Yusuf, the first patriarch of the Chaldean Catholics of that name"

This brings me to the next thing. I have been accused of being nationalistic when calling Asmar a Chaldean, which she was. Yet the editor of the latest revision emphasize on the common Middle Eastern name "Hindi", when trying hard making Asmar an Indian. Which one of us is driven by an unmotivated nationalistic agenda? Throughout the book it is clear that Asmar identifies as a Chaldean. In vol. 1 p. 152 she meets a fellow Chaldean and they become "the most harmonious little family, for the lady was also a Chaldean Christian". In vol. 2 p. 68, Asmar writes "my fellow-countrymen, Chaldeans, passed by me". Asmar also receives a letter from the bishop of Alqosh, written in Chaldean Neo-Aramaic and she translates it for the readers (vol. 2 p 313-314). Etc.

Lastly, I don't find a whole quote from the first page of her book, where she describes her origins according to the tradition of her family, necessary. According to Wikipedia rules, quotes should not be overused. Quotations that are used to make a point that can be paraphrased counts as overuse. MrKnowItAll-TheOG (talk) 00:42, 4 December 2021 (UTC)


 * About the Third Opinion request: The request made at Third Opinion has been removed (i.e. declined). Like all other moderated content dispute resolution venues at Wikipedia, Third Opinion requires thorough recent talk page discussion before seeking assistance. There's not been any discussion on this page in months. When discussion stops for an extended period of time, a presumption arises that a settlement or acquiescence has been reached. If there's still a dispute here, then the next step is to try to resolve the dispute again through discussion. If an editor will not discuss, consider the recommendations which are made here. If you can't, or won't, get discussion going again, then about your only recourse is a RFC and even that may get shut down for the same reason. — TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 18:55, 16 March 2022 (UTC)