Talk:Mariano Rivera/Archive 2

extraordinary pitch control
Mariano Rivera's pitch control is extraordinary among MLB pitchers with good control (same as his personal control!). I have seen a theater-style presentation by retired physics professor Alan Nathan, former chair of SABR's Science and Baseball group, which includes graphic illustration of this point.

I don't quickly find that presentation online and cannot here check the more recent video (follow these links). These three pages all refer to that research and they or their links may be useful here.
 * http://webusers.npl.illinois.edu/~a-nathan/pob/
 * (unrelated to Rivera) I have seen another presentation by Nathan featuring research using the "Baseball Trajectory Calculator". That link may interest some of you.

--P64 (talk) 15:24, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * http://www.completegameconsulting.com/
 * http://www.physorg.com/news189364294.html

wrongly numbered footnotes
Starting in the Records section, all new footnotes are pointing to the wrong number in the "References" section e.g. click on 162 ref for "Most career games finished" and it goes to 160 in the footnotes section. I found one way (maybe not the best way) to fix similar problem in Trevor Hoffman article by getting rid of list-defined references. This is a reminder for me or anyone else to clean this up here. More of a problem for people that would print the article than for most who view it online.—Bagumba (talk) 01:10, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for bringing this up, can't believe I didn't notice it earlier. I've taken the initiative to fix this - let me know if there's still something that needs to be tweaked. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk &bull; contributions) 12:52, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

multiple-inning saves
My edit to quantify Gossage's criticism of Rivera was removed out of concerns that the sentence was undue. There is very little that is negative in the article, and mention in a book by an accomplished writer like Charley Rosen seems notable. The subject of Rivera and modern closers in geneal having it easy has been discussed in multiple sources, including the Hall of Fame and ESPN.—Bagumba (talk) 21:32, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not opposed to having a brief mention of Rivera's usage vs. Gossage's usage as a closer discussed in the article, but the information you added seems like it would be a better fit for the closer (baseball) article in discussing the role's evolution throughout various eras of baseball. I'm keen on not adding very much criticism of the closer role to individual player articles, since it's not really their fault that the role is utilized so differently these days. Hope you understand where I'm coming from. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk &bull; contributions) 13:51, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems a bit redundant to have a full quote from Gossage when his viewpoint was summarized in previous sentence. Removing the quote and reincorporating the stat on multi-inning saves.  Hopefully this addresses the concern of undue weight on criticism.  Also, the previous reference to Zimniuch had the wrong pages.  I've updated to the correct page with Gossage's perspective.—Bagumba (talk) 22:25, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

"Hall of Fame upon retirement"
Just came to this article in order to see an example of a baseball FA, and noticed this imprecision in the lede. One only becomes eligible for the Hall after five years have elapsed since retirement, not "upon retirement," so in plain language that sentence was incorrect. I checked the cited source and found another issue in that the reference only represents one sportswriter's opinion, not "sportswriters". So I tweaked it for correctness on both counts while still trying to keep the tone of the original, although I'm not entirely pleased with the result. But I didn't want to drive-by-edit an FA without explaining myself, and I hope noone minds. --Threephi (talk) 00:58, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your concern - although I was aware of the "5-year from retirement" requirement, you are right in that the language was imprecise. As far as the amount of refs to back up the statement go, because it is the lead, there isn't a full gamut of references provided, as it is already cited in the body of the article. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk &bull; contributions) 18:16, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

electrified pool deaths
Why is there no mention of the two people killed Rivera's pool ? Sure seems like that should be somewhere in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.5.133 (talk) 18:31, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "Rivera returned home to Panama to mourn two relatives that had been killed in an accident in his swimming pool." Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk &bull; contributions) 18:45, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

35-save seasons
The citation used references a televised broadcast from Sunday Night Baseball without a timestamp, making it difficult to verify even if one were to get access to the entire game video. Woudn't want to watch the entire 3 hrs. This tweet would be easier to verify. However, with all of Mo's accomplishments, and given that most save milestones in the media are mentioned in increments of 10's and not 5's, I think the article could be tightened with the 25- and 35-save milestones removed, as they seem somewhat trivial. I'm sure Elias et al has similar 26- and 36-save records too.—Bagumba (talk) 20:28, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Your point is well taken about how some of the records seem superfluous. I certainly agree that 26-save, 27-save, etc seasons would be completely unnecessary since most records are measured at nice round numbers. Still, none of those purported records have been reported by well-known reliable sources, whereas the multiples-of-5 records have been. For that reason, I don't see the need to remove them. Alternately, we could use a Play Index query from Baseball Reference to replace the ESPN broadcast or any Twitter references, but I don't know of anyone that has a paid membership at the site. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk &bull; contributions) 00:03, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

"Saves champion" vs "saves leader"
I have never heard anyone say the phrase "saves champion" in common use. When I look at Baseball-Reference, the section with relevant stats on this subject is called "Yearly League Leaders & Records for Saves". When I look at Baseball Almanac, it's called "Single Season Leaders for Saves". When I look at MLB.com, the link to get to that section is called "Regular Season Pitching Leaders". A Google search of "baseball 'saves champion'" returns just over 5,000 results, none of which appear to be from reliable sources. I don't know where this language came from, but "saves leader" seems to be more common for describing someone who has led in the saves category. "Champion" seems to indicate much more ceremony and accomplishment, something that does not come to mind when thinking of leading a league in saves. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk &bull; contributions) 02:48, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I think this discussion would be best at WP:Baseball. Anyways, I'm actually in agreement with you. I just believe there should be consistency with what the article is titled and what we put in the infobox. I don't know why those pages are called "champions". The only time i've heard champion used is for "batting champions". I've never heard of a "saves champion" either.--Yankees10 03:15, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

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