Talk:Marie-Antoine Carême/Archive 1

Re-write in progress
Having finally gotten my copy of "Cooking For Kings", I'm re-writing this article as I'm reading the book. There are substantial changes, if the book is to be believed.

I've moved a few dates a year or two, and there are small changes to various facts. A really big thing so far is that--according to the book--Carême was never at the Congress of Vienna. I'm going to go ahead remove that passage, but if anybody has a source that claims he actually was, we should try to understand which is correct.

DanielVonEhren 16:11, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Carême not at Congress of Vienna
This post if for Wetman. You've reverted the changes about the Congress of Vienna; citations or even an explanation would be nice. Here's a passage from Cooking For Kings (p 103).


 * "Metternich, Talleyrand, Castlereagh, Nesselrode, Charles Stewart, the Duke of Wellington and the Princes Hardenburg and Guillaume de Humboldt, dedicated gourmands all, were in attendance. And Carême? Surprisingly, no (although he is often credited with having been there). At a gathering at which Talleyrand needed more than ever the grease of French cooking on the cogs of his diplomatic machinations, Carême opted to stay away. Instead, he wrote."

I had read the words you put back several times, and I always inferred that Carême was cooking in Vienna. Do you have a reference that says that says that he was? Or that Talleyrand brought along chefs trained by Carême to Vienna? What exactly was the traceable influence (I'm sure I don't understand it)? Citations, please. Was Talleyrand's presence at the Congress the mechanism for spreading the new style of cooking, or was it Carême's work, in quick succession, for Tsar Alexander's, King George, and Charles Stewart (in Vienna, but not at the Congress)?

Notice also that there is zero mention of the influence of Carême (or cooking) in the Congress of Vienna entry, and zero mention in Talleyrand's entry.

DanielVonEhren 15:42, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * There is no mention of the Waltz either, in the Congress of Vienna entry. It had been simply a countrified dance called the ländler before, had it not? I may be wrong there too.


 * But, please enter Kelly's information, if you trust it, adding "(Kelly 2004)", to correct the misinformed, such as I&mdash; for the role of Carême at Talleyrand's table during the Hundred Days is part of "folk" culture, at a certain level. Is "Guillaume de Humboldt" an indication of the general accuracy of this passage?  But, since Carême was in Vienna, chef to Lord Charles Stewart,   who was brother of Castlereagh, Robert Stewart, Viscount Castlereagh, the British envoy, who brought him back to London, one expects that you with Mr Kelly will explain Carëme's presence in Vienna in the first place. Did Castlereagh pick him up at Paris? Or was Lord Charles at Paris to pick him up? Or did Carême table-hop from Talleyrand, retiring, to Stewart at Vienna? And was the connection with the Tsar established somewhere other than Vienna?


 * You do understand the difference between gourmand and gourmet I suppose. Most people do. Apparently Kelly doesn't... --Wetman 21:44, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You're quite right: I haven't put in all the references that I need; my thought was to evolve the article as I read the book, then re-read the book and edit the article (both for its style and for coherency), and then try to do a final polish to add citations and revisit the organization. There might be a better way to do it, but I like the idea getting stuff out for people to examine.

I'm handicapped by only having one source, Kelly's book. There are short articles about him in the Larousse and various encyclopedias and cookbooks, but they're all just a couple of paragraphs, so they don't do much more than confirm the outline of his life. There are other biographies and more extensive sources in French, but I don't speak French. The plan in the back of my mind was to do the best I could with Kelly, and then put an inquiry into the French Wikipedia.

And to answer some of your questions: What I've learned is that Carême did cook for the Tsar, but only in France. He went to St Petersberg, but never cooked there in any meaningful sense. He worked for Stewart (in the UK and Vienna) several years later. He had previously cooked for the exiled royal Spanish family (being held prisoner by Napoleon during the Penninsular Campaign). He made Napoleon's wedding cake. He worked for George IV when he was the Consort, but was so disgusted by the job that he refused to even attend George's coronation. And his work for the Rothschilds was maybe as important as his work for Tallyrand (it was a less creative period, but his fame and influence was vastly greater). I need to organize and capture all this (and I don't even know if all that is true, or even if my notes are correct). That's just the details of his life: I'm even more interested in his influence.

Which takes us back to the reverted text. I have no doubt that many of his ideas ended up at the Congress of Vienna, but how and to what extent? When asked what help he needed at the CoV, Tallyrand famously answered "More cassaroles", but--cute folklore notwithstanding--did he really use food to change the course of French history? Answers to these questions might lead to a better wording in this article, and would merit a mention in the CoV and Talleyrand articles.

DanielVonEhren 23:18, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

M. Câreme's first name
If Larousse says he's known as Antonin, and uses that, given that he probably instigated the change, shouldn't he be called that? I mean, the poor guy didn't ask to be named after Marie Antoinette, after all. Mothperson 19:47, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * "Antonin" while he was running the Tsar's kitchen. But not before, one would think. --Wetman 20:30, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I was thinking about that, too. As you note, the story is that he was named after Marie Antoinette, which must have seemed like a great idea in 1784, and a horrible idea in 1789. So he called himself "Antonin", and eventually got special permission from the King to call himself Carême de Paris.

But I think the Official Wiki Policy is to name the article for birthnames, and mention pseudonyms and pen names in the first sentence. But, come to think of it, we don't do that with actors. Who would ever look for 'Francis Gumm'?

I'm looking at meta-article on biography. Looks like we should, in any case, re-word the intro.

Is a re-direct good enough? By the way, I think that I'm kind of agreeing with you here, even if it sounds like I'm not. :-)

DanielVonEhren 20:48, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Try googling "antonin careme histoire" and "antoine careme histoire" and look at the difference. Mothperson 22:27, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Could you share a conclusion with us? :-) One comes up 343 hits, the other 422 hits.

To my mind, I guess the question is whether the article should be titled by his birth name or the name he went by as an adult at the height of his fame and influence (whether or not he legally changed it), or the name he most remembered by. You might say: Francis Gumm, Judy Garland, or Dorothy?

DanielVonEhren 04:03, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Given the vagaries of googling, we may not have gotten the same results, but I wasn't looking for quantity of hits. I was looking at the first page only, to see what sites came up.  Antonin gets almost exclusively French sites, as I intended by including histoire.  Antoine depite the histoire gets almost exclusively the usual suspects in English.  I spend a lot of time with those guys, and although I know the French sites occasionally copy from each other and get stuff wrong just like the American and British sites do, I prefer to get French history from the French.  I tend not to believe a thing on the sites in English unless I can verify it in French.


 * But as you say, the question probably is more one of how peeved Bob Dylan and Cher would be if their headings were Robert Zimmerman and Cherilyn Sarkesian or whatever her last name is.
 * Mothperson 09:57, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

1784, the year Carême was baptised, is the year that the Russian Grand Duke Paul was travelling, officially incognito, as the "Comte du Nord" and was making himself a celebrity in higher Parisian circles. Was Paris so agog over the future tsar that the pastry-chef-to-be was christened "Antonin?" The Paris baptismal records burned with the Hôtel de Ville in 1870. That Marie Antoinette connection I'd doubt, even if it were in the memoires printed under the Restauration. I'd suggest Saint Antoine de Padoue instead. What I'd consider likely however is not the same as what happened. --Wetman 21:49, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * There is no reputable site that I can find, in English or French, that calls M. Câreme Antoine without preceding it with a Marie-. Two sites that do are second-hand, and one is paraphrasing something from the Cooking for Kings book, and by the way, what is the subheading of that book?  Don't tell me - I already know.  It ain't Antoine.  I suggest you change your title to Marie-Antoine Câreme or Antonin Câreme.  I prefer the latter.  I suspect he would, too.  Going away now.--Mothperson 22:59, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Back again. I would like to know if you are or are not going to rename this article in light of the information. Thanks. --Mothperson 18:49, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't, but I'm in a minority around here, to be of the opinion that an article's title should simply reflect what an average reader would be looking for. Then the bolded phrase in the first line should strive for accuracy. Some Wikipedia genealogists have imposed upon us quite preposterously accurate article titles. I had to create a redirect, for example, from Mme de Sevigné: check out that Wikipedia title eh! --Wetman 19:18, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It could have been worse. She could have had six or seven middle names! Plus a military title! Well, not that. This should be much less painful. So will it be Marie-Antoine? I need to know for a link. After the first link I'm calling him Antonin. --Mothperson 20:53, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please decide what you're going to do, and do it. Unless not doing anything is what you've chosen to do. If the latter is the case, I go, reluctantly, to Rfc. --Mothperson 11:04, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Simply entering "Antoine Careme" or even "Careme" gets the reader to the article now&mdash; beyond that, one might simply follow the best recent biographer, the one Mothperson is reading, or the Dictionaire Universelle. French Wikipedia has no article but mentions "Marie-Antoine Carême" at "Personnalité français". (At their 'Nantes" article there's, um, a passing reference to "Marc Carême, though...) Google hits (in French-only mode) Antoine 17,300; Antonin, 992; Marie-Antoine, 497 --Wetman 15:31, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Your point escapes me. All those French hits for "Antoine" have Marie in front in the text.  The only places I see calling Carême Antoine and Antoine alone are some sort of blog-looking stuff.  -- Mothperson 16:58, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


 * No they don't. You didn't set your Google preferences for French only first. Then click and carry the name at the top of this page to get the circonflex in the name. Search as I searched. There you are! --Wetman 18:16, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

I did do French only, and I just did French only with the circumflex, and still the vast majority of those entries are using Marie-Antoine, not Antoine alone. If it is this important to you, I will submit the question to Rfc, and if they agree with you, I will drop it. Personally, I think "Antoine Carême" looks English-speaker ignorant, and I don't understand why you are so insistent on using it --Mothperson 20:19, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Let me repeat, slowly this time: "Simply entering "Antoine Careme" or even "Careme" gets the reader to the article now&mdash; beyond that, one might simply follow the best recent biographer, the one Mothperson is reading, or the Dictionaire Universelle." I have already ensured that the ordinary reader will arrive at the article circonflex or no, thus&mdash; needless to say&mdash; whatever heading may be conjured is immaterial.  --Wetman 23:39, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I've put in a request for comment because I have to refer to Carême a lot, and I do not want to use your eccentric version of his name. So poor M. Carême is always bloody, rather than merely bruised.  --Mothperson 15:04, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

5 May Reversion
For NoPuzzleStranger

I reverted your changes because you deviated from a standard Infobox template. In fact, I agree that it is a little redundant. The pointfulness might come from tools (that probably don't yet exist) to scan the Wiki database and consolidate information. If you think the template is wrong, there could be a useful discussion at its page Template_talk:Infobox_Biography, but I didn't see any entries you may have put there.

You made another minor edit about Carême's abandonment, which I tried to capture in the reversion. You should check to make sure I got all of your changes right.

DanielVonEhren 22:44, 5 May 2005 (UTC)


 * There is no consensus for adding such infoboxes to biographies, and surely most biographies don't have one, so it is not the standard (except for office-holders where there is various information beyond name and birth and death to be presented in the box). NoPuzzleStranger 22:42, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Request for comment summary
Marie-Antoine Carême was most unfortunately named after Marie Antoinette before things got ugly in Paris. Be that as it may, that is his full name. Except that he was and is known almost universally as Antonin Carême, by his own choice, bless the poor thing. OR he is referred to as Marie-Antoine. He is never referred to simply as "Antoine", except by the ignorant (never the French, interestingly). The title of this article should be changed. I don't care whether this article is called Marie-Antoine Carême or Antonin Carême. I am quite sure M. Carême would prefer Antonin, but I'll settle for either. "Antoine" is just dumb. I know I'm supposed to be describing this dispute in impartial terms, but I can't.  Okay. Won't. Potato Potahto. Mothperson 00:42, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm no expert on French language or on the person in question, but based on the above discussion and on some google tests I ran, the most common naming in English seems to be "Marie-Antoine Carême". Wikipedia tradition as I understand it is to name articles by the name most commonly used in the language of the article, then put formal accuracy into the first mention in the article text.  Perhaps that's changed in recent months (the full title at Mme de Sevigné is scary) but I still think of it as a best practice.  So, I guess I'm mildly in favor of moving the article to Marie-Antoine Carême.  Isomorphic 01:39, 14 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm also in favor of Marie-Antoine Carême, as the most popular English naming. &mdash; Catherine\talk 20:44, 14 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Marie-Antoine Carême sounds right, with redirects from Antonin Carême, Marie Antoine Carême, Carême de Paris, and a brief discussion of the various names he's known by. --Carnildo 00:18, 20 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I concur with Carnildo. Radiant_* 09:01, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

So, let's see if we can lay out the options:


 * Marie Antoine Carême. Birth name, changed at an early age.


 * Antonin Carême. The name he began using after dropping Marie-Antoine. This is probably how he rose to fame.


 * Marie Antonin Carême. The way he is most often listed in the Library of Congress catalog.


 * Carême de Paris. The name he eventually used for publishing his books, approved by the Emperor.

I'm only trying to lay out the alternatives; if I've got my facts wrong, let's correct them. Are there other options that I have missed?

DanielVonEhren 17:05, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I dunno. I hear there's an Australian contingent pushing for Tony C., and I doubt if they'd go for making him sound like a milliner. Got any other permutations you'd care to add? Mothperson 21:04, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

There seems to be substantial support for "Marie-Antoine Carême", so I'm going to try to test for a consensus on this. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 10:50, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Requested move Antoine Carême → Marie-Antoine Carême

 * the most common naming in English seems to be "Marie-Antoine Carême".
 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation and sign your vote with ~ 


 * Support Tony Sidaway|Talk 10:50, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Support Mothperson 11:29, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Support --Carnildo 17:41, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Support &mdash; Catherine\talk 21:54, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Mild support (the caveat being that I really don't know the subject matter.) Isomorphic 00:37, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments


 * Comment Page has now been moved, removing move template. --Lox (t,c) 16:14, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 07:24, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Whatever you good people come up with, would you please give us rabble an idea of how to pronounce his name? Particularly "Carême". Thanks! Lyle 02:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

problem with Influence section of article
there is a missing word in this Section. i dont know what goes there but i just noticed it. Sppik (talk) 01:39, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Important dates differ substantially between sources
Carême's birth seems to be variously listed as 1783, or June 8 1784, and the date he was abandoned varies in books from 1792 to 1795. The article listed 1783 in the infobox and 1784 in the lede until I just decided to pick 1784 citing Snodgrass 2004 (Encyclopedia of Kitchen History), and it currently lists 1794 as the year of his abandonment citing Connell 2012 (Lives of Notorious Cooks). The following biography, Kelly 2009, actually sounds more credible to me: It is focused just on Carême, and the coverage of his abandonment sounds is much more detailed, with the year 1792 being an important factor historically ("...one fact he was always clear: in the autumn of 1792 he was taken from his Left Bank home and was abandoned"), than in Snodgrass. Kelly lists Carême's birth year as 1783, although no sources that list 1783 cite a specific date; Kelly notes that the official birth record was destroyed in 1871 during the Franco-Prussian war. The June 8, 1784 birthdate also occurs in QPB Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins''. The 1792 abandonment year occurs in both Kelly's biography and in Sweet Invention: A History of Dessert; I found only websites claiming 1793, Wikipedia claiming 1794, and Snodgrass' book claiming 1795.

Carême's first employment after being abandoned also varies between sources. The Wikipedia article currently says he was employed in a cheap chophouse; Snodgrass said it was a tavern; Kelly simply says he was "taken in by a busy cook who offered him bed and board in exchange for skivvying."

I think a good way of handling the year variations is to simply describe the birth uncertainty in the article text, citing two competing sources, and for the abandonment year simply assume 1792 is correct and ignore the other sources. But I'm not sure what to do about the birthdate in the opening sentence or infobox. Perhaps the opening sentence could use something like "(1783 or 1784 – 12 January 1833)"?

Agyle (talk) 06:59, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Grave at Montmatre
I've been to Carême's grave a number of times, in Montmatre cemetery. If there's another grave in Père-Lachaise, could you provide information about it please because one of us is wrong, but I'm struggling to believe there are two Marie-Antoine Carême's buried in Paris, with the same birth and death dates. He's marked in the cemetary information as Carême the great chef. --Jo Crabb (talk) 00:23, 6 July 2015 (UTC)