Talk:Marieval Indian Residential School

Concentration camp
quote from a First Nation leader described this as a concentration camp. i wonder if this will change the narrative. im not going to categorize it as such, at least yet.(mercurywoodrose) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:5FA1:61B0:B509:71A2:9022:160D (talk) 17:58, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * This may be better to discuss on the Canadian Indian residential school system article, though they already have many references to genocide there. 188.148.229.11 (talk) 17:59, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Crooked lake board school
Searchign this document for "crooked lake boarding school" will return many details on the initial school. Not adding it myself as the nb in the history section regarding the first school is quite complicated. --- Possibly &#9742; 20:23, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Were the unmarked graves on school grounds or in a cemetery near the the school grounds?
This CBC article says that the bodies were discovered in a cemetery that was near the school. It is also less clear about whether it is known that the Catholic Church had in fact removed any markers, or if that was just speculation on Chief Delorme's part.Fullmetalalch (talk) 00:29, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
 * When I wrote that part in the article, I was using sources from CTV News and Global News that both had direct quotations from Chief Delorme:
 * CTV News: "The Catholic church representatives removed the headstones and today they are unmarked graves"
 * Global News: "In the 1960s, the Catholic Church removed the headstones and today, we have over 600 unmarked graves"
 * 188.148.229.11 (talk) 17:55, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Use of term "mass graves"
Though the media is using the term, zero evidence has been presented thus far to even suggest this was a literal "mass grave" as opposed to a cemetery. A mass grave is one large pit dug to inter dozens/hundreds/etc of bodies at once and they are placed beside and/or dumped on top of each other. Discovering bodies in the same area does not a mass grave make. The WP entry, however, presents this as factual. I'd suggest changing the term to "burial ground" or something similar until more details emerge. 216.154.4.118 (talk) 14:32, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Did you even read the article? The term used is "unmarked graves", so I'm not sure what your point is.  freshacconci  (✉) 14:41, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
 * In fact, a quick scan of the sources used in the article show the media mostly using the term "unmarked graves" as well, so your concern is based on nothing really. Neither this article, nor the sources, use the term "mass graves".  freshacconci  (✉) 14:44, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
 * There was one mention to "mass graves" in the lede and I have removed it. 188.148.229.11 (talk) 17:52, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, this was what I was responding to. Though, further to the other replies, mass graves is still used frequently in many media references.

216.154.4.118 (talk) 00:10, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Unclear
The article says mass graves were discovered and then just goes to reactions about how families are being supported. Its not really clear what the graves or bodies are for or what they mean, is it simply the fact that people were (i assumed dumped in the graves), maybe some context that people have been searching for loved ones or something — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C6:53A1:E001:98AF:3FB3:FF75:4AFA (talk) 16:50, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that some important information is missing although that may also be because it's recent. There is no mention of how many were estimated to be children or of burial dating estimations, to have an understanding of the context, the link to the school and the period.  — Paleo  Neonate  – 01:37, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Not a mass grave
"The Cowessess First Nation says 751 unmarked graves have been uncovered on the grounds of a former residential school in Saskatchewan." https://winnipeg.citynews.ca/2021/06/24/remains-saskatchewan-residential-school/ They never said mass graves. The School Opened in 1899, closed in 1997. 98 years, 751 unmarked graves, 7.7 per year on average. And the Spanish Flu pandemic has to be taken into account. Death rates back then were high. greater than 250 per 1000. There is no evidence of only child graves. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041751/canada-all-time-child-mortality-rate/ This article needs facts. There is a grave yard with missing head stones and decayed head stones. So far no "mass grave".
 * Nowhere in the article does it say there was a mass grave. 188.148.229.11 (talk) 05:31, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Physically dominating
The article quotes the source that correctly mentions it. Perhaps some sources also offer better precisions. Although illegal today, corporal punishment was common in most schools for a long time in Canada. — Paleo Neonate  – 01:40, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I am an eye witness to a child getting "the strap" on the hands in 1969 in Cleveland Ave Elementary school in Riverview New Brunswick. The child's name was Rodney Simpson. Corporal punishment was common in most schools for a long time in Canada, and how. Punishment was not reserved for the indigenous.  It was dealt out to everyone, regardless of race. So much for physical domination as a issue.
 * Please prove through WP:RS, otherwise WP:OR. Albertaont (talk) 02:16, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes. The point is the not specific case above, rather the policy that enabled it accordingly:
 * "Toronto Trustee William Ross sought to change that practice. An elementary teacher in the 1950s who left the profession for a business and legal career before being elected to the board in 1961, Ross felt that he had “misused” the strap, and from that time onwards he favoured its abolition. In January 1969, he put forward a motion that Toronto schools “refrain from administering corporal punishment at all times.” The motion was tabled and never reintroduced." https://www.edcan.ca/articles/banning-the-strap-the-end-of-corporal-punishment-in-canadian-schools/
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment


 * "In a 6-3 judgment, the court upheld the so-called spanking law, first enacted by the federal government more than a century ago, which permits the use of "reasonable" physical force to discipline children."
 * https://www.corpun.com/cad00401.htm

Influenza Theory (as yet unproven)
Has anyone investigated or consider the possibility that the spanish flu so dominant around 1918-1920 killed off many of the inhabitants, perhaps so many at once that the school (or other schools operating at the time) was overwhelmed? The flu of the time attacked the youngest most fiercely and killed millions worldwide. There are unmarked graves around the world from that period of time (generally 1918-1920). --2600:6C48:7006:200:B056:6066:1296:EF0B (talk) 01:49, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

It would not have to be the Spanish flu -- it was common for children to die of infectious diseases until the relatively very recent past, and it was even common at times of pandemics to use mass and/or unmarked graves -- as happened in New York City during Covid. My own uncle died in one of the many polio epidemics and was buried in what was until recently an unmarked grave (though the family had his name carved on one of the gravestones in the family plot -- where he is not interred). Any large-group living arrangement was especially susceptible, as we saw with military barracks during the Spanish flu and long-term care homes during Covid. BTW, as I write this, I am within a couple of miles of the previously unmarked mass grave (a genuinely "mass" grave) to Irish victims of the many diseases that swept the emigrant ships arriving in the mid-1800's. Unmarked graves are common in Canada where -- beyond Montreal, Vancouver or the Golden Armpit -- the population is sparse, services limited, and accessibility may be problematic even today. And just while I'm here, we also didn't (don't?) bury our dead in winter -- those little houses by our cemeteries are for when the ground is frozen. alacarte (talk) 02:44, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Mary Ellen Kelm wrote a monograph in 1999 regarding the assimilation of the natives in British Columbia. On page 40 she recants the deaths in Kamloops due to the Spanish Flu. Here is a link to the PDF.  http://ojs.library.ubc.ca/index.php/bcstudies/article/download/1498/1541
 * "Aboriginal people  too responded  in  a number  of ways that  fit  both  within  their  own  and  the  adopted  systems  of  healing  around  them.  Many  availed  themselves  of non-Native  medicine. Evangeline  Pete,  a Sto:lo elder, remembers going to hospital with her whole family when they got the flu. They  stayed  for  three months. Her brother  died  there  and  her  father  was  so  weakened  by  the  disease  that  he  died  a  year  later. Others  checked  themselves  into the  segregated  barracks  des-ignated  for "Indians" in Kamloops."  This is documented evidence of deaths due to Spanish Flu at Kamloops.  In the pandemic, what evidence is there that Marieval was spared?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.138.33.183 (talk) 16:12, 29 June 2021 (UTC)


 * All this is very well and good, but it's somewhat irrelevant. We can privately speculate all we want on the the dates and causes of death of those buried in these sites, and none of that is worth a spit in the wind without a number of reliable sources saying so, AND that this information pertains to the subject, AND that it's at all meaningful.  The significance here is not what those in those graves died from.  It's that the graves were unmarked and unrecorded.   Ravenswing      21:22, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
 * There are 1000s of unmarked graves in every city, town and village in the world. Your assertion that the reason for the deaths is irrelevant is false.  The reason for the deaths is the central issue.  The fact that there are unmarked graves in grave yards is of no significance. Wooden crosses etc rot and decay. Monuments are often stolen.  My family is buried in a grave yard where there are dozens of unmarked graves. About 800 people die every day in Canada and many are buried in graves.  Many of these graves will fall into ill repair.  That is way it is.  What is important is why the people die.  The Spanish flu ranks as a plausible reason for deaths in 1919.


 * "About 35 Halifax Explosion victims at Mount Olivet remain buried in unmarked graves, but that’s changing. Another victim was identified this summer, and her family added a headstone just two weeks ago." https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/grave-of-halifax-explosion-victim-identified-100-years-later-1.3588773 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.138.33.183 (talk) 17:56, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you're unclear as to how Wikipedia works, and what we can assert or not: I recommend reviewing WP:NOR, WP:V, WP:SOAPBOX and WP:SYNTH for openers. We are not permitted to editorialize, speculate or come up with "plausible" anything.  We can only report on what reliable, independent sources have stated.  And in any event, if you think the reason these burials are in the news is that some of them might have died in the 1919 pandemic, you are not only badly offbase, but you've plainly not read the news reports, none of which have mentioned 1919.   Ravenswing      20:43, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I know exactly how wiki works. I know that nobody knows the the reason that the bodies were placed in the cemeteries. Nobody.Just as I offer a plausible reason for some deaths, and wiki rightfully does not populate the article with the speculation, wiki corresponding should also not speculate as to the reason why a cemetery has graves, other than people died.  Further, unmarked grave are unremarkable. You want to assign suspicion to a common reality. You said an unmarked grave is a problem. You are distorting the facts. You are adding suspicion. My position is that you do not put any speculation or insinuation in the article. If you know why there are bodies in graves in a cemetery, then you should edit the article saying what you know. You don't know.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.138.33.183 (talk) 11:43, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm certainly glad you've come around to agreeing with me about how speculation and insinuation do not belong in the article. That being said, perhaps you should also take a look at WP:FORUM.  As is correctly stated at the top of this page, this is for discussing improvements to the article, not for general discussion of the subject.  I'm sure there are many forums out there where you can do the latter.   Ravenswing      17:03, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Cause of death
Is there any media report about cause of death? --2402:3A80:1113:32A5:9C69:6192:35A6:4820 (talk) 08:23, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Can't imagine there would be. I haven't heard anything more than that ground-imaging radar has discovered what they're pretty sure are many graves.  That's a very long way away from actually digging them up to verify that, never mind attempting autopsies on decades- (or century) old remains, never mind the cataclysmic outcry that would result in anyone being so wooden-headed as to try it.  What conceivable benefit to the authorities would there be for them to order it?   Ravenswing      13:34, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Having search through various articles, I have yet to see one that has identified causes of death for the victims. Some articles have alluded to bad sanitation and illness, but I don't believe that there has been any autopsies to determine causes of death. Perhaps in time with more investigation we will have causes of death. Jurisdicta (talk) 07:07, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
 * unless there's been some major developments that have been hidden from the public (I HIGHLY doubt it), they have not exhumed any bodies from any residential schools for any purpose. That being said, There's the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada's report on the matter which included research on recorded causes of deaths as well as oral histories on the matter.


 * That's about 70%. I don't know of any information about the breakup of the other 30% as the TRC report didn't seem to specify. Fullmetalalch (talk) 06:05, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I should make it clear that the above quote is for all residential schools in Canada. The cause of death at Marieval might differ somewhat, but for now, this is the best information we have.Fullmetalalch (talk) 06:32, 9 July 2021 (UTC)