Talk:Marija Krucifiksa Kozulić

Nationality
If the sister was born in Croatia (then part of Austria-Hungary) then how is she "Italian-born"?– Gilliam (talk) 12:28, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Feel free to change it back. I had Croatian, and every time I change it, someone changes it back. SusunW (talk) 15:45, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Please, let us write Italian-Croatian, because that is the best and most complete description, which should not get anyone offended. Her first language was Italian, her mother was of Italian origin, she lived in Italy for many years and even in Rijeka/Fiume Italian was then the dominant language. On the other hand, of course, she also had Croatian origins, she spoke fluent Croatian and Rijeka is today part of Croatia (it belonged to Hungary in the second half of the 19th century). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.137.193.5 (talk) 15:52, 28 December 2015 (UTC)


 * It's very unkind the way people move frontiers now and again, but ... that's life (or in the case of World War I, rather a lot of death).  I'm tempted to suggest that if people find references to Italy and Croatia distressing, then we should remove all references to either of them.   International political frontiers are not really "of the essence" in terms of what Sister Marja was about.   But failing that, asserting that when (for instance) she studied in Gorizia she was studying in northern Italy, is plain wrong.   I respectfully submit that wikipedia should try and avoid being plain wrong!  The place where her mother was born was annexed to Italy by military means in 1918 (according to Wikipedia, anyhow...) by which time the mother of a girl born in 1852 must have been either seriously elderly or else dead.   Mexicans living in what later became California were not Californian: they were Mexican, so why should different rules should apply in Europe?   Regards Charles01 (talk) 17:19, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I have no objection to Italian-Croatian, nor any designations that make things clearer . It was a confusing time, with borders changing. Me, I am personally in favor of getting rid of all borders, having a world passport and eliminating strife, but that is me. you know that I adore your correcting stuff and clarifying stuff, so please do whatever improvements are necessary. I am sure someone will speak up if there is an issue. Me, I am just happy that she is finally getting some attention on English wiki :) SusunW (talk) 17:37, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
 * World passports would surely be unnecessary if there were no frontiers.  (Actually, during the decades of increasingly free movement after (maybe also before) the American Civil War and before the First World War people mostly got by perfectly well without carrying passports when crossing frontiers between / within the US and western Europe.)   But of course having states issue passports gives states power over people, and for reasons of public relations people - at least in England - get unbelievably upset when it is suggested that they should carry identity cards whereas they have been persuaded that carrying a passport is a real privilege.   The more interesting issue, as that wretched Mr Snowden had the sheer ....  um, discourtesy .... to point out, is the underlying database (and the other stuff "they" do with the data).   However, I fear I may be drifting off topic again.   Success to y'all Charles01 (talk) 17:50, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

What I'm trying to say is that describing her as merely Croatian is simplistic and incomplete. At the time Rijeka or Fiume was a multiethnic and predominantly Italian-speaking city, much like Trieste/Trst, Pula/Pola and Zadar/Zara. In 1910 it was inhabited by 47% Italians, 32% Croats, 8% Slovenes, 7% Hungarians, 5% Germans and others. Maria Crocifissa/Marija Krucifiksa was among those Italians, although she was of mixed heritage (her mother's surname is Italian, Soprani, the -ić part being added in time due to mixing with Croats). Besides, all the writings she left are in Italian. Therefore, I think it's important not to ignore the cultural complexity that was so peculiar to the city (nowadays Italians make up only 2% of the population, as most of them left after WWII). Perhaps it should also be noted that Maria was fully bilingual and signed documents with either the Italian or Croatian version of her name, depending on the context and language that was being used. This indicates she herself embraced this dual identity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.137.193.5 (talk) 19:28, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Ethnic cleansing
I'm afraid this is (again) peripheral to the subject of Sister Krucifiksa, but it flows from something you wrote above. The post world war 2 ethnic cleansing was insufficiently reported in English language sources of the period, presumably not least because the appetite for more war had finally been sated, and the political establishments in the US and UK felt guilty about their failure/inability (delete according to mood) to do anything to stop what was happening in central (and central-southern) Europe. But you don't stop bad stuff from having happened by ignoring it. Knowing what went wrong in the past could yet help politicians avoid reruns of the more tragic bits if only they were smart enough. Anyhow, I created a redirect here for obscure reasons from which I will spare you. Two or three generations later the subject is still fiendishly difficult to write about objectively. But you look as though you might know something about it. If you are tempted to improve the entry and have access to the sources to support any improvements, please do. If you don't want to go near it because of the risk of stirring up time-wasting wiki-wars, I shall not blame you. Either way ... your call. And thanks for having thought about it. Regards Charles01 (talk) 16:55, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

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