Talk:Marilyn Manson (band)

Smells Like Children should be under Discography
Across Wikipedia, EPs/compilations/other releases have been listed among studio albums under a Discography, if the release is equally important. Examples can be found on Nine Inch Nails, Guns N' Roses, Seaweed, Led Zeppelin, and many more. In this case, Smells Like Children should be listed, too. Here's my points:

#1: Historically, it was considered an actual album, and not just a promotional/limited throwaway EP. This viewpoint has changed due to opinions, but that fact is still in history. source: old official website listing it as the 2nd album / source: 1998 interview with Manson / source: 1997 article about Manson's fans / source: 1997 article/interview about Daisy's exit Note: There are plenty of sources that says Antichrist Superstar is the second album, of course, but I wanted to show older sources only, since the majority of the "Antichrist Superstar is the second album" claims are from post-2000s, while anything prior says that Smells Like Children is.

#2: It charted on multiple Billboard charts, something a low-grade EP would not do. It charted on Top Album Sales, Top Current Albums, and Billboard 200. It also sold over 1 million copies, which is pretty important in itself. source: Billboard chart numbers

#3: There was a national tour promoting Smells Like Children, a lengthy one, at that. Small EPs typically don't have such large tours made for them. source: Wikipedia page about the tour

#4: A single and music video was released for one of the songs, "Sweet Dreams". This is also noteable because it was Marilyn Manson's breakout hit, and received lots of popularity due to it. source: Wikipedia page about the song

#5: Out of the 16 tracks, only 4 of them are true remixes. The remaining 12 tracks are either new songs, skits, or offbeat audio clips. This makes it a distinguished release, even if it's not your typical properly-arranged album. Also, the length of Smells Like Children is 54 minutes. That is way too long to be considered an EP anyway, and I'm assuming people only started to call it an EP because maybe there's only xx minutes of "actual proper music"? I'm not sure, but it was discussed briefly. source: Wikipedia talk page about the length Xanarki (talk) 17:37, 7 October 2020 (UTC)


 * This is correct. 54 minutes is longer than an LP, it's in no way an EP. I'm not sure how it got listed as such.Hoponpop69 (talk) 12:13, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Some counterpoints: If you people want to include Smells Like Children as an EP in the discography section, like I've noticed you doing at Nine Inch Nails and Mazzy Star and multiple other bands on my watchlist – god only knows how many more – then go ahead. But the edit warring and nonsense has to stop. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 23:34, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) The Long Hard Road Out of Hell repeatedly describes Smells Like Children as an EP.
 * He could say he's a martian, that doesn't make it true. The simple fact of the matter is the length of album is longer than a standard LP.Hoponpop69 (talk) 04:47, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 1) As recently as 2018, Marilyn Manson himself does not rank it among his studio albums.
 * Lots of people disown albums, that doesn't magically change the length of them to make them EPs.Hoponpop69 (talk) 04:47, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 1) The band signed a 7-album deal with Interscope records in 1993, which ended with their seventh studio album The High End of Low in 2009. In a series of now-deleted MySpace posts, Manson said the band were offered a deal to resign with one of Interscope's rock-based sub-labels, but this offer was refused, owing to Interscope's shoddy promotion of that album. So if even Interscope didn't consider Smells Like Children an album, why should we?


 * You might be confusing me with someone else. I haven't gotten into any edit wars or nonsense. I did kickstart the NIN EP inclusions last year, but besides them (and Limp Bizkit in early 2020), I haven't had any extended dicussions elsewhere (especially Mazzy Star? I barely know who that is)


 * You bring up some good counter points tho. The case of Smells Like Children can swing either way. I'll have to dig around to see if any other then-members considered it an important album. Xanarki (talk) 02:15, 1 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Sorry I just noticed you were referring to the other person's edits that got reverted. I personally don't edit the main pages until there's an agreement. But in my opinion, Smells Like Children is called an EP because, despite it being over 50mins, there's less than 30min of actual music. The rest of the EP is chatter, sound bytes, clips, samples, etc. To be honest I think calling it an EP to begin with is an opinion, because since when does a release need to be 100% music? If anything it's a sound collage.


 * Regardless, as mentioned, there are sources that point to it being an important album, and there's also sources that doesn't. It looks like most sources from after the release of Holy Wood considers Smells Like Children a lesser side EP, but, anything dated prior to Holy Wood treats Smells Like Children as Manson's second major album. As mentioned I'll have to dig around for more conclusive evidence.


 * FYI, you mentioned that The Long Hard Road Out of Hell describes Smells Like Children as an EP. Even if it does describe it as an EP, does it get described as an important release, equal to the full-length albums? I'm genuinely curious because I've never read it before.Xanarki (talk) 16:05, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Legacy
Should we add something to the "Legacy" section where a critic talks about how the allegations have impacted Manson's legacy?MagicatthemovieS (talk) 17:28, 14 August 2021 (UTC)MagicatthemovieS
 * I claim no ownership over these articles. I may have helped to improve them, but other users should feel free to add what they want, provided their edits adhere to Wikipedia policy. In my opinion, though, it's far too early for anyone to determine how these allegations have impacted the band's overall legacy or entire discography. It has only been six months, with little or no comment from Marilyn Manson himself. Surely there were lots of people and "reliable sources" arguing for the band to be "canceled" back during the Columbine controversy. Here we are 22 years later, rehashing many of the same arguments but from an entirely different perspective. Only time will tell. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 23:46, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

De Moines Register
This source is hard to cite within this article where it was because this article is about the band Marilyn Manson and the sentence "A pivotal figure in 1990s and '00s alternative metal and hard rock, Manson is known for..." clearly refers to the singer Marilyn Manson. RockabillyRaccoon (talk) 12:44, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Genres
Gothic rock is cited in at least two separate sources, including Rolling Stone. It should be added to the infobox.￼ RockabillyRaccoon (talk) 00:09, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Manson is not goth
The goth subculture say Manson is not goth and he is not welcome in the goth community as being edgy and shock value doesn’t go by what gothic rock is gothic rock has a dark yet a romantic sounding and also lyrics are poetic and dark with romanticisms and introspection Manson was mislabeled as goth due to him looking spooky shock rock is the best term to use rather than gothic rock Thecure8985 (talk) 02:00, 27 June 2023 (UTC)


 * On Wikipedia, your personal beliefs have no place in determining whether or not an artist falls under a certain musical definition. Neither I, nor you, nor anyone who edits Wikipedia is to be trusted as an expert, and you have no grounds to call the sources we've cited into question.  danny music editor  oops 02:20, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Controversies
Does anyone else think the "Controversies" section should have a subsection for the sexual abuse allegations against Manson and Ramirez? There are similar subsections in the articles for Rammstein and the Red Hot Chili Peppers so why not here? Charles Essie (talk) 17:46, 14 December 2023 (UTC)