Talk:Marina Abramović/Archive 1

Seven Easy Pieces
I've begun editing the article, adding new text and information, and, most importantly, providing references and citations throughout. It seems clear to me that the Ayers review from Total Theatre magazine that comprises almost all of the final section will have to be entirely removed, and the information compressed and paraphrased.--Galliaz 01:54, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I totally excised the text of Ayer's Total Theatre review (it had been jammed into the entry en toto.)  There are clear copyright issues with it being present in the entry, and, stylistically, it was a nightmare.  I plan to add a brief section on the critical response to the recent Guggenheim performances soon.

I went ahead and gave the Seven Easy Pieces their own page, because I think it's time that a number of important performances (such as that one, for instance) get their own articles. I'll be getting to the originals of the ones she performed in a bit. --AlbertHerring 22:57, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Teaching practice
Mention should be made of Abramovic's teaching practice. She has produced a book about it called Student Body. Unfortuntely I do not have access to a copy, but I was once fortunate enough to see a showcase of her students' work from when she was teaching at HBK Braunschweig. The students' clarity of vision was quite remarkable, way beyond what you would typically expect at undergraduate level. Ireneshusband 11:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Citation for birth certificate comment?
"(born 30 November 1946,

In 1976, after moving to Amsterdam, Abramović met the West German performance artist Uwe Laysiepen, who went by the single name Ulay. They had both been born on the same day, though in completely different regimes: her birth certificate was marked by a five-rayed star, while his had a swastika."

Is there a source for that seems a bit odd since by the end of 1946 denazification should have been very intense. Or is it supposed to be metaphorical mispresented as fact.


 * Yeah, I get your point, the swastika certainly wouldn't have been on a document issued in 1946.  I'm working to track down that source (which I don't own).  However, here's info on the actual date from an interview in Artist Body (Charta, 1998): MA: So I met Ulay and it was the day I was born, my birthday, and his birthday.  Interviewer: November 30? MA: November 30... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Galliaz (talk • contribs) 15:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC).
 * Ulay was born on the same day, but in 1943, not 1946, so his birth certificate may well have spotted a swastika. -- megA (talk) 16:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Marina's nationality
http://www.dijasporacg.me/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1969:marina-abramovi-u-crnoj-gori&catid=16:vijesti-iz-dijaspore&Itemid=162 Marina is a self-declared Montenegrin, has a Montenegrin passport and has represented Montenegro at the last Biennale in Venice. It seems that only the Croatian Wikipedia respects that fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.188.38.226 (talk) 13:40, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, and just all other wikipedias say different (and with more valid references), Croatian must be right... --109.121.6.206 (talk) 23:26, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Croatian wikipedia has allready problems with writing a lot of offensive and incorrect contents. So If I where you, I would rather find information in some neutral wikipedia.

Table in "the Artist is Present"
Does anyone know at which point the table (which can be seen in the picture taken in March) was removed? Because when I was at the MoMA on May 12, 2010, there was no table. (I dimly remembered somewhere that Ms Abramovic had the table removed at some point, but I don't remember when that was. She also wore a white gown when I was there...) -- megA (talk) 16:20, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It's removed two months upon opening, by Marina's request. She talks about it in "The Artist Is Present", movie about her and her show at MoMA. --109.106.254.100 (talk) 04:23, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Nationality disputed
Two days ago in Serbian TV, Marina clearly identify herself as a Serbian, and speaks on clear Serbian, and not not Montenegrin language. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjLFSphK_50&t=12m26s More references coming as soon as published. For now there is no strong evidence that her nationality is strictly, or at all Montenegrin. So there is any right to change in text her name no "Montenegrin Cyrillic" and putting in many places her nationality to Montenegrin, using just one non-clear reference, that can be interpenetrated in many ways. I already said that this is almost wiki vandalism, made by ultra-right Montenegrin users, with no interest in objectivity, but only in ultra-nationalism. I insist on reverse back in article her nationality to "Serbian-American", as it was, or leaving just "American" as she really is, and she clearly is, without any speculations. --109.121.31.214 (talk) 21:51, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
 * First of all, she was born in Yugoslavia, and her parents were partisans (therefore communists, and that's what she says in her film The Artist is Present), I doubt she was ever raised to feel as being Serbian or Montenegrin since communist are anti-nationalists. Second, she doesn't live in Serbia nor Montenegro, she lives in New York, so most correct would probably be to say that she is an American, and if she moved there from Yugoslavia, then Yugoslav-American (and why the hell not?). But as far as I am concerned, she is a citizen of the World, end of story. We should probably give her and everybody else a break about her nationality anyways --109.106.254.100 (talk) 04:13, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

http://www.pobjeda.me/2012/10/01/marina-abramovic-pripadam-crnoj-gori/ http://www.portalanalitika.me/drustvo/vijesti/75543-marina-abramovi-zaplakala-primajui-trinaestojulsku-nagradu.html http://www.vesti-online.com/Scena/Kultura/259402/Marina-Abramovic-Srbima-fali-ljudskosti How many other sources proving that she's Montenegrin do you need? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rasho992 (talk • contribs) 20:55, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Per neutral, non-Montenegrin sources, she is not Montenegrin. -- WhiteWriterspeaks 14:34, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Nationality claims in this article are seriously problematic and article looks very Serb dominated, biased and false at the end trying to hide everything that can be said in favor of her being Montenegrin. Not even a word is written on her Montenegrin roots by both - father and mother as well as on her official Montenegrin citizenship and her personal feelings of being Montenegrin. This is not Montenegrin or anyone's else source, but Marina speaks herself (pls see second half of the video). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_0FGIAJA8w

How long has she been givin the same lecture?
"She is currently at Bard College in Upstate New York giving a lecture."
 * Is the lecture still going on?
 * I bet she is lecturing about herself? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.93.58.126 (talk) 21:27, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

English is not my first language so i dare not to edit this, but when i read this sentence, it sounds like she is, at this very moment, still holding the same lecture. Is she a lecturer there, does she reside in upstate NY? shouldnt this be more defined? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pailhead (talk • contribs) 17:32, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Both of her parents were of Montenegrin nationality, and she considers herself Montenegrin, as she mentioned in recent intereview for TV of Montenegro, but it's not mentioned anywhere in the text???
 * Find references. Vanjagenije (talk) 09:33, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

There is no clear evidence about her nationality. If she said that she is Montenegrin (but no is no reference yet), it most of cases it is geografical reference only. Truth is that she never explicit said about her nationality, so it is not objective to refer to her as Montenegrin, nor Serb. Surname Abramović is alomost never Serbian or Montenigran, but Jewish. There is also trend on english wikipeda in recent years of proclaiming more and more people for Montenigrins, without any clear evidence, for political reasons, as a part of Montenegrin "national awake", and I am affraid this is part of it. Only objective statement is that her nationality is unknown, or that she is American of unknown (Jewish, Montenegrin or Serbian descents). Sorry for bad english. Cheers! 77.105.53.18 (talk) 12:09, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

The Artist is Present
Shouldn't there be a page specifically for the documentary "The Artist is Present"? --Matt723star (talk) 21:43, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Sure. Create one.--A21sauce (talk) 20:03, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to add the following details about The Artist is present soon unless someone objects:

"Marina Abramovic sat in a rectangle drawn with tape in the floor of the second floor atrium of the MoMA; theater lights shone on her sitting in a chair and a chair opposite her. Visitors waiting in line were invited to sit individually across from the artist while she maintained eye contact with them. Visitors began crowding the atrium within days of the show opening, some gathering before the exhibit opened each morning to rush for a more preferable place in the line to sit with Abramovic. Most visitors sat with the artist for five minutes or less and the line attracted no attention from museum security except for the last day of the exhibition when a visitor vomited in line and another began to disrobe. Tensions among visitors in line could have arisen from an understanding that for every minute each person in line spent with Abramovic, there would be that many fewer minutes in the day for those further back in line to spend with the artist. Due to the strenuous nature of sitting for hours at a time, some have speculated as to whether Abramovic wore an adult diaper to eliminate the need to move to urinate. Others have highlighted the movements she made in between sitters as a focus of analysis, as the only variations in the artist between sitters were when she would cry if a sitter cried and her moment of physical contact with Ulay, one of the earliest visitors to the exhibition. Abramovic sat across from 1,545 sitters, including James Franco, Lou Reed and Bjork; sitters were asked not to touch or speak to the artist. By the end of the exhibit, hundreds of visitors were lining up outside the museum overnight to secure a spot in line the next morning. Abramovic concluded the performance by slipping from the chair where she was seated and rising to a cheering crowd more than ten people deep."

Source: Marcus, Sharon (January 2015) ”Celebrity 2.0: the Case of Marina Abramovic” Public Culture, Duke University Press.--Mintzosbourne (User talk:Mintzosbourne\talk) 19:28, 20 Feb 2016 (EST)

Name of final piece with Ulay
What was that final piece at the Great Wall called?--A21sauce (talk) 20:04, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

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Proposed merge with Marina Abramović Institute
the Institute is not yet notable enough for a separate article  DGG ( talk ) 11:36, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

It appears in the New York Times, The Guardian, and Harper's Bazaar. It is notable enough. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:180:8000:C2AB:9F:CACD:A515:D38E (talk) 07:09, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
 * This artist is quite notable and well referenced and should remain a separate article. Best Regards, Barbara (WVS) (talk) 16:44, 5 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Merge. I was just checking up on old "proposed museum" articles (to move ones that have petered out to category "failed museum proposals,"  stumbled on this "Institute," and was looking into whether it had ever been notable, when I foudn hti merge discussion.  The Institute should certainly be merged here..E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:28, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, indeed--if you are willing, please just go ahead and do it., WP:N explains that there  possibility of writing two articles does not imply that both must be written as separate articles. The reason for this is that it is much  better to have one strong complete article than two weaker ones.   DGG ( talk ) 02:49, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Merged "Institute" here.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:19, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Pop culture references
Shouldn't there be a section for pop culture references that could feature stuff like this? Kim Stanley Robinson's science fiction novel 2312 mentions a style of performance art pieces known as "abramovics". Normosphere (talk) 12:02, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I would like to add a Pop Culture reference section. After The Artist is Present, Abramović’s popularity increased in the world of celebrities because of the iconic people who attended. After her performance piece, many celebrities tried to duplicate her work or work with her. Examples of this are Lady Gaga and Jay-Z.

I think the Other section should refined. Seeing that someone else has suggested the Pop Culture reference section, I feel the text about Lady Gaga in the Other section better belongs in this newly proposed one.One anecdote I would like to add is about her collaboration with Jay Z. Due to the outcome, I think it perfectly transitions into the section of Controversies that now follows the Other section. Another user has also suggested an example to be included in the Pop Culture reference section above that I am not familiar with but would further contribute showing a need for it on the page.

On a side note I think the controversies sections needs to heavily be revised. There is a lot in today’s media about lawsuits between Ulay and Marina. The dynamic between them could be of great influence to accurately depicting her character on this page --Artistoncanvas (talk) 05:17, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 4 November 2016
This page incorrectly states that Abramovic pioneered the notion of identity via the participation of observers. Yoko Ono was the first, when she performed "Cut Piece" in 1964, over a decade prior to Abramovic. Yoko Ono's "Cut Piece" had the observers use tools, such as scissors, to rip or cut her clothes off, to see how far the audience would go until she was nude. LordMeShepherd (talk) 19:46, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:44, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Spirit Cooking
Any updates on this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.24.168.145 (talk) 02:05, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes, why nothing about that affair and what are spirit cooking according to the artist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E35:8A8D:FE80:2CCC:E644:65FA:30C8 (talk) 08:51, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

New external link
I have added a link to a video of the artist talking about her performance practice throughout her career. It is an interesting look into her artistic process. T.Broch (talk) 14:14, 12 August 2011 (UTC)


 * In my opinon, you shouldn't. Are there videos on other artists pages? Look a little too promotional IMHO. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E35:8A8D:FE80:2CCC:E644:65FA:30C8 (talk) 08:52, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

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Abramovic
...is a jewish surname, can't help it. So how about that? And please don't mix up jewish ethnicity with religious belief and ctitzenship of Israel and such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.108.98.124 (talk) 22:57, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

another provocation?
on the first pic Abramovic wears the mentioned "Austrian Decoration for Science and Art" on a ribbon around the neck. The order should be worn on the breast (see numerous pics in the net) and NOT like the WWII knightscross. Another provocation of Abramovic, saying people like her are the kingthscross-bearers of our days? Any info on that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.108.98.124 (talk) 23:05, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

BLP violations
The problem isn't the citations, the problem is with the text. Describing someone as "controversial" in the lead violates WP:LABEL. In addition, you seem committed to adding material that makes it appear that she took part in "occult rituals with members of the Democratic Party," even though there's no evidence that this happened. If you persist in your conspiracy-mongering I will report this to WP:BLP/N. FallingGravity 22:20, 6 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Whether neutral, positive or negative, citations-backed text is to stay. Also, is it bad to write "super-famous" for a big star and "criminal" for a living criminal? No, as long as it is backed by citations. I am anyway reporting it. Thanks. Meanwhile, I encourage you to read the link you sent here. " are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject". Also, I am not writing in the text that she practices occult activities. Not do I believe anything like occult or satanic exists. However, there has been a controversy about it, and I am simply mentioning that this controversy occurred. Also, I am reporting it so the conclusion will serve for both. Thanks. Pppooojjjaaa (talk) 22:32, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * ,"Whether neutral, positive or negative, citations-backed text is to stay" is not the right approach to take here. We certainly do omit referenced material (particularly negative material) from biographies all the time, per WP:BLP which is a core policy.


 * Now on the merits. I don't know as description as "controversial" is out of line. She's a performance artist. Performance artists tend to be controversial. "Controversial" is fairly anodyne here. So one question to ask is "would a reasonable person consider this person to be the subject of controversies sufficient to mention in the the lede"? Looking at the refs, sure looks like it to me. "Controversial" is not necessarily pejorative in all cases. My guess is that she's be more miffed if we described her as "Uncontroversial -- beloved by people from 8 to 80 in all walks of life, and popular with family audiences and everyone else", n'est-ce pas? She'd figure she's doing something wrong. I support the inclusion of the word "controvsial" in the lede, with references.


 * As to some of the rest... the Inquistr ref is no good for "While many accuse them of being satanic in nature". First of all, who are what is Inquistr? Never heard of them, they are not the New York Times, they are probably not an AAA-level ref and we want an AAA-level ref for slinging the word "satanic" around any living person. Second of all, the ref just says "Abramovic’s work was criticized as being satanic" without specifying by whom which -- they're not saying it themselves, they're handwaving at some unnamed sources and that is useless. This is not a good ref. Not even close. Don't use refs like that to make contentious claims about a living human.


 * All refs for contentious material about living humans need to be much better than this, and if the rest of the "Controversy" subsection is ref'd like this it needs to be severely redacted -- erring, as always, on the side of not saying anything negative about a person that we cannot stone-cold prove true. Herostratus (talk) 23:06, 6 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Hey, many thanks for your response. I have a few questions which I could not understand.
 * 1. I did not understand this- " She'd figure she's doing something wrong. I support the inclusion of the word "controvsial" in the lede, with references." and ""Controversial" is fairly anodyne here. So one question to ask is "would a reasonable person consider this person to be the subject of controversies sufficient to mention in the the lede"? Looking at the refs, sure looks like it to me." Are you ok with using the term controversial in the lead?
 * 2. Also, kindly note other references, not only Inquisitr which may not be as reputed as the rest of the citations I used, but there are more around 10 citations in the entire article about her controversies.
 * 3. Controversy need not be good or bad - or pejorative- I agree completely.
 * 4. "Abramovic’s work was criticized as being satanic" without specifying by whom- The citation https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2016/nov/04/marina-abramovic-podesta-clinton-emails-satanism-accusations now does state who accused etc about the controversy (it was leaked and official wikileaks link is in the article). I believe guardian is an AAA reference? Please let me know if not.
 * 5. Her controversies about racist remarks on aboriginals, accused of inviting diplomats t spirit cooking are well sourced and you can even help by replacing with a better source, or I will do it if I notice. Thanks.
 * 6. "She's a performance artist. Performance artists tend to be controversial." True, but I can not write this, instead all I can do is cite and write. Is it that if a profession is controversial, then one can not write that the person in the profession is controversial? It is not about other performance artists (as I am not looking for citations to every performance artist as of now). But specifically about Marina, her controversies are not only limited to (as I quoted above New York times acknowledged that her activities are perceived as "disgusting" by many) her art performances, but her controversies go as far as racism, not acknowledging artist whose work inspired her acts and allegedly inviting diplomats for spirit cooking.


 * Therefore, I hope I have answered all your queries. :) Thanks again for your patience. Pppooojjjaaa (talk) 23:45, 6 December 2016 (UTC)


 * I don't think "controversial" belongs in the lead. What is being mistaken for controversial is "pushing the envelope" which is what artists commonly do. It does not warrant comment. Bus stop (talk) 00:02, 7 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks, can you please give an non-opinionated answer. Artists like Musicians, dancers, actors, painters and other kinds of performers do not call aboriginals dinosaurs or do spiritual cooking, and are not called "disgusting" by New York Times. Opinions differ. I just want to know if it violated any policy in a black-or-white kind of way. Pppooojjjaaa (talk) 08:19, 7 December 2016 (UTC)


 * —the question is whether she should be called controversial in the lead. Is she really notable for being controversial? Most people can be considered controversial for one reason or another. The real question is whether she is controversial as a performance artist. In the context of performance art I don't think she is controversial. She is mainstream in the context of performance art. One could almost go so far as to say she sets the standard for what performance art should be. Bus stop (talk) 12:14, 7 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Ok, going by the consensus I am removing the "controversial" from the lead. (On a different note, I completely disagree that she sets standards of performance art. Cutting own self alone or in public are both horrendous- which is exactly why New York Times mentioned that she is often called disgusting. Many people cut themselves for all sorts of reason like pleasing Gods so on.) So, I am removing it form the lead, thanks for helping out. Pppooojjjaaa (talk) 12:20, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * —there are exceptions to everything. Obviously one should not cut oneself. I didn't mean to imply that aspiring artists should learn to cut themselves. Thank you for pointing that out. I agree. Bus stop (talk) 12:39, 7 December 2016 (UTC)


 * thanks so much. Means a lot, really :) Pppooojjjaaa (talk) 21:32, 7 December 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm locking the article per BLP: no mas with this Pizzagate talk until there is a consensus. Also, I spotted what appears to be a copyvio. Drmies (talk) 04:14, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
 * , you've been edit warring over this content for some time now, slowly but surely. You are very likely to get blocked if you continue with this after it's unlocked. Also, you really need to learn how to paraphrase: that "prestigious group" bit, as well as the quote from the NYT, are lifted straight from the source without quotes. Moreover, but this is an editorial note, you need to contextualize and attribute properly. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 04:21, 10 December 2016 (UTC)


 * I don;t know how competent you are as an admin because you just reverted a "copy pasted sentence from New York Times"" that had a citation from same "New York Times article" . It was not copied without quotes. It was inside "". Anyway, see here- a request for deletion/blocking of my article- (I think I could do better for myself than editing a body-cutter's biography) []. So, can you block my account? I was actually just posting this request on your talk page. Thanks. And good luck editing wiki for the next decade. (Just guess provoking would be a double benefit here to get blocked. 3 hours just to get blocked- that's long) Pppooojjjaaa (talk) 04:25, 10 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Not only block, I would appreciate if I am automatically logged out, deleted from login credentials. If My email id and username could be removed from login database. Thanks Pppooojjjaaa (talk) 04:35, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

once again spirit cooking/podesta emails
how about mentioning the Podesta emails scandal, involving Abramovic in a weird way. You can also bring her reaction to it. But spirit cookiing itself should defintely get a point in the "carreer-list". as several others demand the same thing - don't look away, doesn't help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.108.98.124 (talk) 23:45, 5 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Until the mainstream media mentions it, Wikipedia will not publish it. Zykodern (talk) 05:40, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

No mention of "Spirit Cooking" conspiracy theory?
Considering "Pizzagate" now has its own article, surely the "Spirit Cooking" conspiracy theory should be mentioned here? A number of mainstream sources are mentioning the incident:

– HelgaStick (talk) 16:24, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify: I'm suggesting a sentence or two, making it 100% clear that the conspiracy theory has been debunked. HelgaStick (talk) 16:28, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I tried to add it a couple days ago, describing the "Spirit Cooking" art piece and using this article to explain how this conspiracy was false, but removed it after connecting it to the recent Pizzagate (conspiracy theory) and citing WP:BLP concerns. FallingGravity 18:01, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The spirit cooking matter is mentioned at the Pizzagate and Michael G. Flynn articles. Doesn't it seem logical that it would be discussed here, too? HelgaStick (talk) 18:23, 10 December 2016 (UTC)


 * That it would be mentioned in the Flynn article or elsewhere doesn't mean it should be mentioned here--that first of all. I protected the article because of the edit warring above, and because the sources given (then) seemed tenuous to me, and the BLP tells me it's better to be safe than sorry. (The revdeletion was for copyright concerns, not for BLP reasons.) If you all, that is, a consensus of reasonable editors carrying briefcases full of reliable sources, think it appropriate, then go ahead. HelgaStick makes a note about how to write it up, so I don't have to remind y'all of the importance of what's proper. Handle it delicately, and do not let this one thing overwhelm the subject's career. I'll go ahead and unprotect. Drmies (talk) 03:08, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

BLP violation?
Re: Can you explain how it is a BLP violation? It is noted in the linked source.Terrorist96 (talk) 06:08, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Including contentious negative claims about a person sourced to an unreliable purveyor of nonsense is, indeed, a BLP violation. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:08, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Still waiting on a link to consensus that equates the inquisitor to "unreliable purveyor of nonsense".Terrorist96 (talk) 07:20, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
 * This source is from someone who seems to primarily cover professional wrestling and the mom of "Honey Boo Boo." Other claims in this source include "It has been widely claimed that Assange has either been assassinated or taken into custody, and many believe that Pizzagate is the reason behind his disappearance from the public eye." This is very obviously an unreliable source, and should not be used to insert fringe conspiracy theories into any kind of article, but particularly one about a living contemporary artist. Aoibheann Dubheasa (talk) 04:21, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

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External links modified
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Estranged from her family and Communist Connections
http://www.kurir.rs/zabava/pop-kultura/brat-raskrinkao-marinu-abramovic-laze-svoju-biografiju-eto-kaze-da-se-nije-udavala-a-ima-2-braka-clanak-2421599

According to the article above, Marina is accused by her brother of having falsified her biography and of not only being a communist, but indeed also had connections to Mussolini. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:14B:4401:D5C0:F098:E5CD:94E2:81E7 (talk) 08:30, 13 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Wait... So she's a Communist AND she's connected to fascism through Mussolini? ...You do see why this is a contradiction, right? The two ideologies being diametrically opposed and all. God, the alt-right is willing to blatantly contradict itself to spread its BS 45.2.134.2 (talk) 17:20, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

People who follow satan often contradict themselves. This is first person resource, so it's really not my fault if you want to deny articles written about her by her own family. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:147:C002:D83A:9119:D26F:59A4:1D1D (talk) 22:41, 2 January 2018 (UTC) →

Religious view
She wears a cross on Wikipedia picture. Is it intentional? Is she a devoted religious or is it only a fashion style? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E35:8A8D:FE80:2CCC:E644:65FA:30C8 (talk) 07:46, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

on that pic she wears the "Verdienstkreuz" from the Austrian State - it even says in the German WP. So it's an order from a certain group in a certain country who found her worthy enough to get that order. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.108.98.124 (talk) 13:11, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

At the end of Controversy footnote 80 the author, Nikola Pešić, refers to Massimo Introvigne's definition of Satanism, which is not congruent with the Wiki definition. There is a formal distinction between theistic and non-theistic Satanism, and Massimo Introvigne has often been criticized for bias. I think this comes across as reputation management more than critical analysis.

What is this person's nationality?
So, what is this person's nationality? It seems some possible choices are: Manual of Style/Biography recommends that "The opening paragraph should usually state... Context (location or nationality)" as part of the person's basic information. Usually state; and it's a guideline. We don't have to. Still, we'd like to include it if we can. It helps the reader get a handle on her milieu.
 * 1) Serbian
 * 2) Montenegrin
 * 3) Serbian and Montenegrin
 * 4) Yugoslav
 * 5) No way to be sure

OK. Self-identification is not absolute slam-dunk proof of anything, but it's a major factor.

Here, in this piece by Radio Television of Serbia (Serbia's national broadcaster), which is apparently a reprint from Der Spiegel, the highly notable and very reliable magazine, she says (all text is machine translation)"

Marina once stated that when the time came, it would be buried in three places: in Belgrade, Amsterdam and New York. "Since my parents died, I have given up on this idea. Serbia is not a country I know. I feel neither Serbian nor Montenegrin. I'm an ex-Yugoslavian. I come from a country that is gone."

Here, in something called Vesti Online, she says

It was similar to the question of whether a Serb, a Belgrade or a Montenegrin: "I did not feel either a Serb or a Montenegrin, I was born in Yugoslavia. After the breakup, I was shunned in Serbia, but the Montenegrins apologized to me, gave me my passport, a lifetime achievement award and they said I was bigger than Montenegro."

So apparently for what its worth she has a Montenegrim passport (she may have a Serbian one too) and for whatever its worth (not much), she also indicates in that article that she doesn't much like Serbia and wouldn't accept an award from that state as she did for Montenegro

OK. So, she was born in 1946, so (in technical terms of actual states) she was "from" Yugoslavia until about age 46. She then was "from" Serbia and Montenegro, which officially was called the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, until about age 55 (and for a couple more years from the same country, but which was renamed to "State Union of Serbia and Montenegro").

However, in 1976 (when she was about 20, and when Yugoslavia still existed), she moved abroad and has mostly (or entirely) lived abroad since. Most of her performances have been abroad, I think. So she never lived in the states of Serbia, or Montenegro, or Serbia-and-Montenegro,

States don't necessarily matter that much. We want to put her context. In terms of places (not formal states), she was born in Belgrade which is in Serbia and I guess brought up there. In terms of ethnicity, I don't know for sure; I get the vibe that she's ethically Serbian. Genetic ethnicity doesn't really matter all that much; She did grow up in what is now Serbia, speaking (I think) Serbian as first language, and that matters a lot more to the reader. She says she misses "boza, cereals, fir, ajvar, cranberry beans, ćevapčići, lexowski burgers, sarmi..."; I don't know if those are Serbia foods or Yugoslav foods generally,

I'm a little bit reluctant to put her as Serbian when she doesn't want to be associated with Serbia, apparently. Particularly since she's alive, we want to be careful about contesting her own description. Which is Yugoslav, per the first quote above. "Yugoslav" is a real appellation. It doesn't exist now, but neither does the Republic of Geneva, but we still have Category:People from the Republic of Geneva (1541–1815), just as we have Category:Yugoslav people which contains very many subcategories and articles. She's in one now: Category:Yugoslav artists. The article Yugoslav people has details about all this.

She's also in some "American..." categories; she lives in New York City now and has for a while I think, and she wanted to build the Marina Abramović Institute near New York City.

There are some discussions above about her nationality. Some editors say she's Serbian, some Montenegrin. The refs that indicated this, tho, don't load, and seems like these editors are (ex)-Yugoslavs and they each have an axe to grind. I couldn't care less about that, I just want to get it right. So, to summarize, I see it as:
 * In favor of "Yugoslav": She says she's Yugoslav. She was born and grew up in Yugoslavia, and held that passport (I assume) as long as possible, into middle age. A lot of other articles about people who were born and lived in Serbia and spoke Serbian are in Category:Yugoslav people categories; don't see why Abramovich should be an exception.
 * In favor of "Serbian": She was born and grew up in what is now Serbia, and spoke Serbian as her native language I gather, and lived in Serbian culture (there is no "Yugoslav culture" per se, I guess).
 * In favor of "Montenegrin": She has a Montenegrin passport now I guess.


 * In favor of "Serbian and Montenegrin": nothing, I guess.


 * In favor of nothing: It's hard to get editors here to agree, so maybe we can't get an agreement on what to say. Anyway, she's been cosmpolitan since Age 20.

My vote is to go with "Yugoslav", just as she says and just like other Yugoslav people. Putting nothing leaves the reader rather at sea until she delves down into the article body.

If anybody has links that work, that'd be be good. If anybody wants to comment, it's germane to say if you're from (ex-)Yugoslavia I think, and which part, Balkan ethnic politics being what it is. We're all Wikipedias here first; we want to get this right for the reader. Herostratus (talk) 00:39, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) She has only roots in Montengro. We are not calling Ludwig van Beethoven Flamish. 2) I am in favor of Serbian or in favor of nothing. Both versions would be per basic Wiki guidlines.  Sadkσ  (talk is cheap)  13:29, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Alright. You seem to have more info than I do -- what are her Montenegrin roots? Do you have any more sources pertaining to her nationality? What about her self-identification quoted above? Are you, personally, Serbian, or what? Herostratus (talk) 17:27, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
 * She is talking about her roots in this interview (her father was Montenegrin and her mother was a Serb, she was born, raised and educated in Serbia, and she visited Montenegro for the first time when she was 29). Google translate the part starting with - Moj otac je iz Crne Gore, iz Cuca. In another interview she stated that Belgrade is/was her home. cheers,  Sadkσ  (talk is cheap)  14:03, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Controversy
Why the hell are you including mad conspiracy nonsense on here? It's pretty much defamation by proxy.

88.110.96.172 (talk) 16:45, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Career section too detailed
The career section is not encyclopedic. It is far longer than it needs to be, and full of details that do not add anything significant to our understanding of the subject. These would belong in her memoirs, rather than her Wiki page. Valetude (talk) 12:53, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

"throughout her life"
"Abramović stated that she has had three abortions throughout her life"--is that a reflection of what she said? Somethjing along the lines of "I have had three abortions throughout my life"? If yes, then it's ok. But otherwise it's silly, when else would she have abortions? 86.171.229.39 (talk) 21:06, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

See also section
I did a clean sweep since this was beyond bloated. --Malerooster (talk) 15:58, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Bbullock5.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 03:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)