Talk:Mario Lanza/Archive 1

Anonymous IP's insertion of Rense bio
This article is an utter mess. Somebody please do something about it... Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy)  08:21, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks to KeithH for cleaning up the article. We cannot keep having copyrighted work added to this article. The anonymous editor 209.180.237.137 says that Jeff Rense's submission was done with permission, but how do we know that? And did Jeff Rense know that by putting his work up there, it automatically would become part of the public domain, so that anyone could use it on any website? Besides, we can write articles in our own words while using those articles as references, as KeithH has done here. --BaronLarf 17:02, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)


 * I removed another contribution by User:209.180.237.137, for the above reasons. --BaronLarf 18:11, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree. The Jeff Rense text is unencyclopedic and doesn't belong in this article. -- Viajero

We will not stand for censorship. You do not own the rights to speak solely to the history of Mario Lanza. Mr. Rense's contribution is every bit as valid as that of anyone else. We suggest you cease and desist your childish efforts at censorship and control. Feel free to write Jeff at jr@rense.com to counter your absurb contention that he is unaware of his work's posting at Wikipedia. People like you who hide behind aliases are precisely the kind of people that destroyed Mario Lanza in life and continue to abuse him in death. posted by 209.180.237.137; originally unsigned


 * I'm not certain that the copyright information of the text by Rense is the issue here. Instead, we're more concerned with the quality of the article itself. Rense's text is unencyclopedic. However, the information contained therein would be welcome, if you'd make the effort to work it into the existing text in the format of encyclopedia-style information. Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy)  00:18, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I feel safe in saying that none of us have any desire to abuse Mario Lanza in death, nor have we destroyed him in life. Wikipedia does not reprint articles written by other people.  We can use them as references and link to them, but it's just not our practice to completely reprint articles and list the author's name afterwards.  I recommend you read the Manual of Style before accusing your fellow contributors of "childish efforts at censorship and control."  --BaronLarf 03:05, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for allowing the link to my essay, Mario Lanza: A Radical Reassessment, originally written for http://www.grandi-tenori.com. Thank you also for doing a fine job on the summary of Lanza's life, which I gather you drew from my grandi-tenori bio. The division between his brief operatic career and film career was a particularly nice touch. You have my full permission to use any excerpts from my essay, as you see fit.

Just a quick word on Jeff Rense's bio, which seems to appear and disappear with monotonous regularity! I have no real argument with its colourfully written content, but I added my essay from grandi-tenori to complement it because I felt that something of substance was required to address Lanza's operatic and concert work. On its own, Mr. Rense's piece was a bit lightweight. What you've done in summarizing my essay, however, is fine. Cheers, Derek McGovern.

I've taken the liberty of adding a couple of pieces of info to the film section on Lanza. These are non-controversial items. I've also removed the caption under the second photo describing Lanza as a predecessor to Andrea Bocelli. That's a highly debatable claim, since their voices, careers and singing styles are totally dissimilar. Indeed, the only thing they have in common is their mass popularity.

-Derek McGovern (posted by Derekmcgovern Apr 18, 2005)

It's come to my attention that this article has received a fair amount of attention on a Mario Lanza fan board. I'd like to clear a few things up here.

First, everyone on Wikipedia is considered equal. There are some moderators who have a few extra privledges, but I am not one of them. All wikipedians watch over articles that they have previously edited to keep them from being vandalized and make sure they conform to a certain agreed-upon style.

When an anonymous user posted a verbatim article attributed to a "Jeff Rense," I removed it since it was attributed to a writer who had a website devoted to Mario Lanza, and I did not want to have copyrighted material on the page. If Jeff Rense himself is the anonymous IP (which I have been led to believe he is), then he is welcome to be bold and correct the information he perceives is "a fiction."

Simply reverting changes and reposting the article is not the way wikipedia works; when there is a dispute, we take it to the talk page of the article and try to build a consensus. Constant reverts and re-reverts take up too much space on the server and don't really accomplish anything anyway. That is one of the reasons why we have the three-revert rule to keep one person from constantly reverting.

So I encourage people from this board to contribute to this article; just try to abide by  the same rules that we have to respect regarding courteous editing. --BaronLarf 17:30, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

You guys did a great job clearing this up, from reading that message board it seems like Mr Rense doesn't understand how Wikipedia works.

I'm not as experienced in editing articles as many of you but in addition to BaronLarf's concerns it seems to me incorporating authored articles into the wikipedia entry rather than under links causes all sorts of NPOV issues

Regards --Matthew Humphreys 21:31, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've beefed up the content a little with the addition of quotes from various opera singers and critics. These come from Armando Cesari's biography, Mario Lanza: An American Tragedy (Forth Worth: Baskerville 2004) and a Television New Zealand interview with Jose Carreras in 1994. I've also removed the contentious claim that Lanza has sold, to date, over 50,000,000 albums. Cheers Derekmcgovern 02:04, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)Derekmcgovern

The edits look good, Derekmcgovern. I just wikified a few words here and there. I also, again, removed Jeff Rense's article. I've tried nicely explaining to him how to use Wikipedia, but he just doesn't seem to want to understand. Too bad. --BaronLarf 03:17, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

The article keeps getting reverted to include the Rense bio...can his IP address be blocked or something? --Matthew Humphreys 08:20, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * It probably won't be necessary to block him. He will eventually get tired of this game and go play somewhere else. -- Viajero 10:03, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I hope he does. But, if you want an amusing read, go to his web board where he calls us "Viscious, greed-driven, megalomaniacal fascist thugs" and "gay dogs scurrying about urinating their pathetic liquid egos, conceit and arrogance on all things Lanza." --BaronLarf 12:26, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, Viajero, Matthew Humphreys, Derekmcgovern and I have all tried responding to Mr. Rense on his own website and here, only to be met by his vitriol without reason. I've reverted his edits again, with the general consensus of all the editors here except for that anonymous IP 209.xxx.xxx associated with Mr. Rense.  It seems that the only recourse at this point would be the vandalism page to block his IP, since we've tried reasoning with him for days now.  I would encourage people to contribute to my addition at Vandalism_in_progress/Long_term_alertsAny other suggestions? --BaronLarf 05:14, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * 209.180.237.137 has been blocked by Curps; I'm not sure for how long.  (Vandalism_in_progress) --BaronLarf 17:16, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * He has been blocked for a week (see: List of blocked IP addresses and usernames). If he returns afterwards, it doesn't matter; we will revert him, and eventually he will get tired of this game and leave us alone. -- Viajero 17:27, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The problem is, he just doesn't understand (or perhaps just doesn't care) that a writing style appropriate for magazine articles is not appropriate for encyclopedia entries. Even more so, he doesn't understand certain policies that might work for other encyclopedia but can't work for Wikipedia because of its open nature (specifically, no opinionated writing (Neutral point of view) and no signing of contributions). Various links have been pointed out to him at his talk page, such as What Wikipedia is not, but he hasn't acknowledged even reading these, or even bothered to reply at all. Sadly, if he makes no effort at all to understand Wikipedia he won't get very far trying to contribute to it. -- Curps 17:43, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Lanza photo
Hi guys - Not being particularly computer-literate, I'd like your help in replacing the photo of Lanza in the Film Career section with an actual (and better quality) pic from one of his films. I've just uploaded an image from my own collection into Wikipedia Commons. It's entitled Mario_Lanza_in_The_Toast_of_New_Orleans_(1950). Any help would be much appreciated. Cheers Derekmcgovern 12:19, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)Derekmcgovern
 * Done. --BaronLarf 12:53, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

Baron (or any other kind Wikipedian): I recently added the rare pic of Lanza preparing to sing Pinkerton to the Operatic section here. Is there any way you can crop the pic to remove the woman on the right? She's quite distracting! Thanks. Derekmcgovern 10:39, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)Derekmcgovern

Listen up you naysayers! You don't like Jeff Rense because of his personal viewpoints so why don't you stop the bullshit and just admit to it. Anyone can find his site simply by typing in his name on Google or any other search engine. Censorship is anti-Freedom and you Jeff Rense haters are petty little Tyrants in search of a cause. Go find some other topic to suppress, you Weasels. --Sincerelly, Earl Boffo...

I've removed the word "controversial" from the description of The Great Caruso. This is overstating things. The film was reasonably well received by critics for what it was - a largely fictitious, but entertaining piece of fluff with some terrific singing. It was the 4th most popular film at the US box office in 1951. There was nothing particularly controversial about it. --Derekmcgovern

Murdered by the Mafia?
In the late 1980s or early 1990s, I heard a program on ABC radio in Australia about the death of Mario Lanza. The person who put it together, whose name escapes me now, had interviewed a number of people and done various bits of research, all leading to his conclusion that Lanza did not die of medical complications but was shot dead by the Mafia (for reasons that also escape me now). Is there any documentation of this murder claim? JackofOz 09:43, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It's highly unlikely that he was shot; coroners tend to notice this sort of thing. I saw a film documentary about Lanza a few years ago, and the makers took the "mob hit" theory seriously. The way they presented it was, the Mafiosi who helped Lanza when he was on his way up felt that Lanza showed a lack of respect when he walked out on "The Student Prince".


 * My suggestion is, if you want to go anywhere with this, you should start by finding out whether Lanza's departure from "The Student Prince" was his idea or the studio's. Prescottbush 21:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Lanza left the set of the Student Prince after the director requested that he re-record a song which he considered too emotional. Lanza could tolerate criticism of his acting but not his singing when he thought his version was what he wanted. As for him being shot by the Mafia, he was in a weight loss sanatorium when he died. He sang all morning and collapsed in the afternoon with plenty of witnesses present. Lanza had three funeral ceremonies, all in an open coffin. Just as an aside, I personally believe that he had by far the finest tenor voice I have ever heard,; god bless him.--203.212.136.134 05:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Belated thanks. Yes, a very good voice indeed.  But was he a match for Jussi Björling or Franco Corelli?  Not in my books.  But here isn't the place to be having an extended chat about this.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  06:34, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Trivia section
I'm not going to bother moving it, but shouldn't it be closer to the bottom? Certainly not before the filmography section!?! Also FireFox is telling me that filmography is spelled wrong. Are we sure it's even a word? NewYork1956 01:47, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

A bit more objectivity...
Strikes me that, like a lot of biographical articles, this one errs on the side of a fan site. I understand Mr. Lanza's health problems and work were affected to some extent by his alcohol misuse. It seems unfair to leave out a mention of this, especially if it is strongly suspected of hastening or causing his death. I can't imagine that a similar article on Elvis Presley wouldn't mention his drug misuse. I love both these singers, but there is a need for objectivity in an encyclopedic style articleRikstar 10:46, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Verification?
I've never seen this before.. where is the proof? references?? Mario Lanza's grandson, Anders Lanza is an Italian opera singer in St. Louis, Missouri performing in the Masters Opera House. This is in Trivia section of Mario Lanza page. Don't think it's fact.

Sorry new here and took me half hour to find this, maybe someone wil check on this what appears to be error and self promotion of a non existant relative of Mario Lanza??


 * It has been removed. IrishGuy talk 17:48, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

nice article but...
You can see the fan influence here. I don't believe there is any evidence of LaScala or Rome Opera contracts offered or taken. That is pure fan fantasy trying to legitimize a supposed opera career that never did happen.
 * Actually he was a offered the contract at Rome and I don't know why it says or even if he was offered one at La Scala. When he recorded the Aida march with the Rome opera in 1957 the manager of Rome opera at the time was so impressed he offered Lanza a contract. Anyways, fans of his don't really give a shit whether he sang in the opera or not so there would be nothing to gain by making up stories. 70.69.34.136 09:29, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the reference to Lanza being offered a two-year contract by La Scala in 1958. In 2005, Peter Prichard (Lanza's British press agent in 1957-58) claimed that a/ Lanza had auditioned and b/ that a two-year contract was offered, but given the lack of independent verification, I thought it best to remove it. However, with regard to the offer from the Rome Opera by Riccardo Vitale, there are at least two sources (Lanza's conductor Constantine Callinicos and agent Sam Steinman) who independently verified this, so it seems reasonable to treat it as fact. --Derekmcgovern —Preceding unsigned comment added by Derekmcgovern (talk • contribs) 01:33, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Probable Cause of Death
In the scientific community there is a theory that 2,4-dinitrophenol may have killed Mario Lanza. It is a poison but in controlled quantites shuts down the OxPhos system and causes the body to produce heat and burn fat. Any others hear or know of this theory? Rrten00 (talk) 17:04, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Nationality
I corrected the nationality in the lede. --Tom (talk) 23:38, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Please site MOS or other valid source that does not recommend his nationality as earlier shown, which per the cites is Italian-American. Thanks. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 23:54, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:MOSBIO. Does this person hold dual citizenship? If so, then then it should be mentioned. If Italian is ethnicity, then it should not go in the lead unless it is the reason for the person's notability. Hope this helps. --Tom (talk) 15:00, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Insistence that Lanza was not an opera singer?
Perhaps I'm not understanding what the problem is with referring to and categorizing Mario Lanza as an opera singer, opera tenor, etc. He certainly sang opera, sang operatically, sang on opera stages, sang in at least one full opera, had an operatic tenor, and portrayed (with his own singing) operatic singers and their roles on film. How he cannot therefore be justifiably categorized or referred to as an opera singer/opera tenor is beyond me. No, he did not make his professional living singing purely or primarily in professional operas. But I don't believe that is the definition of an opera singer. And don't confuse me with the fans who somehow at fault for "screwing up" this article. I don't care much one way or another about Lanza, beyond the fact that he appeared in a show I do have some (other ) interest in. I just think that the categorizations are correct by definition, and that as far as I can see, what's going on here is that some anti-fans are taking a purist viewpoint to an absurd extreme. ("Lanza sang mainly in opera-like movie roles, so he just can't be a real opera singer.") If there is another, more objective technical reason, I'd be glad to hear it. "Monkeyzpop is dead wrong" does not suffice.Monkeyzpop (talk) 22:20, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Defining "Opera singer"
It would seem to be out of bounds for an editor to claim that a noted opera singer is no longer an opera singer, in their personal opinion. The term "opera" is used 40 times throughout this article, and he is consistently called an opera singer. Therefore, removing a category of "Opera singer" is unacceptable, regardless of any single opinion. Keep in mind also that the lead already covers your opinion, with a cite:


 * "Today, the "magnitude of his contribution to popular music is still hotly debated", and because he appeared on the opera stage only twice, many critics feel that he needed to have had more "operatic quality time" in major theatres before he could be considered a great star of that art form . . . "

As for videos, they are acceptable "fair use" clips. A 2-3 minute movie clip in Wikipedia meets all the parameters of "fair use" by law. If someone wants to provide legal reasons why they don't think they apply, they should do so on the talk page so it can be discussed. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 01:58, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Since you're so adamant that he was an opera singer the infobox must go. You can't have it both ways. NewYork1956 (talk) 03:41, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm personally not "adamant" that he was an opera singer, but we can only cite what others say, not our own opinions, per WP:RS. You can add other valid sources which state that he was "not" an opera singer, to balance the article. As for the infobox, you removed the "person" infobox, not an "opera" one. Unless you also claim that he was not a "person," it should be restored. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 04:32, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * NewYork1956 is correct. WP:WikiProject Opera guidelines state that opera singer articles should have no infobox of any kind in the article. This policy has been in place for years and was made through lengthy community discussions. Please do not add an infobox back. Thanks.4meter4 (talk) 04:44, 12 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I got here through recent changes. Reinstated the infobox - with the edit summary "what's wrong with the infobox?" Indeed, what's wrong with it? I happened to see the discussion here, so I reverted my revert. But I really don't get it. Is someone trying to make a point? I fail to see the connection between not being an opera singer and having an infobox, other than the technicality of what type of infobox to use.
 * And another thing - it's just terrible practice to log out and edit as an IP to make your disputed point. You really don't have to be a genius to figure out who did what with what IP. ʝungle  jill  23:31, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * You know what, I'm reinstating the infobox. Sorry, don't get me further involved, I just think it improves the article. This guy is even listed under Wikiproject Opera. You all can do as you see fit, I just don't feel comfortable leaving this article in worse shape than it could be. ʝungle  jill  23:35, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I guess I should've gone to sleep a while ago. Missed this "WP:WikiProject Opera guidelines state that opera singer articles should have no infobox of any kind in the article." Still, this person seems to be mostly an actor, so those guidelines don't apply here. ʝungle  jill  00:12, 18 June 2012 (UTC)