Talk:Marion Jones/Archive 1

marriage
Update Ms. Jones recent married Oba Thompson( Barbados olympic sprinter)70.107.10.17 07:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Marion_Jones
This whole section looks like a copyvio. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 20:43, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, it's gone. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 20:45, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Personal bests section
I am confused by the notes column in the personal bests section. It indicates bests from 1998 (100 and 200 m) were "steroid aided" however prior sections state she began using the steroids in 1999. I don't want to make any changes on a whim so I thought I'd ask if there was a source for this or if I am misinterpreting the table. I think it is important to meet WP:BLP and not accuse her of using steroids except where she has admitted it herself or it has been otherwise stated in the press. Maybe the table just needs to be formatted more clearly though? Stardust8212 17:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Vandal - fixed.--Fizbin 18:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I thought that might be the case. Thanks for clearing it up. Stardust8212 20:42, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

additional comment regarding plea
Jones pled guilty to making false statements to an IRS Special Agent leading the relentless BALCO investigation in California. Jones claimed she had never taken performance-enhancing drugs. “That was a lie, your honor,” she said from the defense table. This investigation has been ongoing since 2003. The trial related to this investigation is scheduled for November 26, 2007 in California.

Jones also pled guilty to making false about her knowledge of a check-cashing scheme to the New York U.S. Department of Homeland Security Special Agent leading a broad financial investigation that already convicted Jones' father of her child, former world record holder and "World's Fastest Man, Tim Montgomery. Montgomery was striped of this title after he recieved a 2 year ban for steroid use learned during the BALCO investigation; her sports agent, Charles Wells, and her coach, 1976 Olympic gold medalist, Steven Riddick.

Jones is now expected to testify against her former coach, Trevor Graham, who is awaiting trial in San Francisco on charges that he lied to federal agents. Stock challenge 01:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/05/sports/othersports/05cnd-balco.html?_r=2&ref=othersports&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill in lead
Many other articles at Wikipedia mention a person's college affiliation in the lead, why is it considered unacceptable here? The alternative form of mentioning it under 'personal life' just does not fit well here. Duke53 | Talk 14:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * For one thing, Jones's college affiliation is not what she is primarily known for. For another thing, your attempts to add it to the lede come across as an effort to link her current disgrace to UNC, which is the arch-rival of your beloved Duke University.  You have made similar edits in the past to other articles in order to make UNC look bad.  Wikipedia is not the place for this kind of partisanship.  (I am entirely neutral on the Duke-UNC rivalry, for what it's worth.)  Please also be aware that you are on the verge of a WP:3RR violation by the letter of the rule, and by the spirit of it have already broken it by making the same edit 4 times now over various other editors' objections. alanyst /talk/ 14:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Leave out. The Article Lead is supposed to "establish context, summarize the most important points, explain why the subject is notable, and briefly describe any controversies" &mdash; seeWP:LEAD. As such, the college she attended hardly fits in the Lead Section, much less the lead sentence. Unfortunately, many Wikipedia articles fall short of the ideal, but that is no reason to abandon this principle of good editing here.  JGHowes talk  -  15:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Nice attempt at exaggeration! What was the objection when I initially added this info, which I consider important? Adding the information is now a reversion in your book? Feh. Check the times and dates of my edits here. Your warning holds no water, it just appears that you still have an axe to grind with me personally; is that suitable for an encyclopedia?
 * My mentioning Jones' affiliation with unc-ch makes them look bad? Hmm ... they were more than willing to take credit for Jones and her accomplishments when she was America's sweetheart; they may wish to take her off their distinguished alumni rolls now, but it seems that some of the behavior (cheating, drugging, etc.) she will now MOST remembered for was learned while a student at unc-ch ... they must take the bitter with the batter. Duke53  | Talk 15:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Your first edit was not a revert but you have restored it three times since, after three different editors removed it. That's edit warring. Find a blog somewhere to blast away at Duke's rivals to your heart's content, but please keep that particular brand of obnoxiousness away from here. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. alanyst /talk/ 15:46, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * So, 3 = 4 = 5 ? Save your exaggerations and misleading statements for someone else.
 * Is your 'brand of obnoxiousness' somehow more fitting? Duke53  | Talk 17:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * She is best known as an ahtlete competing under US flag in the Olympics, not in college athletics.  Blnguyen  ( bananabucket ) 01:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Duke53 - take your agenda elsewhere. Her UNC days are a VERY minor part of her story.--Fizbin 01:55, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Duke53's behavior here is now being discussed at the administrators' incident noticeboard. It may be appropriate to take any further comments on the subject to that venue. alanyst /talk/ 02:05, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Dangling ref tags
Hello folks: please be extra careful when you're adding citations. I just located and closed two dangling ref tags that were added by a recent editor. I knew there was a problem as soon as I saw the seriously messed-up References section. That second tag has to be closed. These things wreak havoc on articles -- in this case, two entire sections went missing! Cgingold 08:36, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Financial troubles section
Why is this even relevant? Her financial troubles are, first of all, not the concern of an encyclopedia, and second of all, more of a trivia section than anything else. This section should be removed from the article unless someone finds a reason why her bank account balance is important information to a biographical article.

To quote from the policy on Biographies of living person, "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. Biographies of living persons (BLP) must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy." --Glacialfury 19:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I would keep the section if it had relevance (IE: motive) to her drugging/cheating, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Should be dumped, but let’s see if anyone else agrees. Ashinn11 19:56, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The article shouldn't be a tabloid. Even if it did go toward a drugging/cheating motive, it should be integrated into that section, and not left as its own. Glacialfury 20:06, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it should perhaps be edited in a less sensationalistic tone, but it has been reported by the mainstream media and appears relevant in that one of the 2 counts to which she pled guilty was the check-fraud case (that section should be updated as well).  JGHowes talk  -  21:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

A lot of this section seems to be taken verbatim from the article in Note 18 (http://cbs.sportsline.com/worldsports/story/10236098). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.220.153.89 (talk) 07:48, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Olympic Medals
But she hasn't been stripped of medals as yet. WP:NPOV and WP:NOR mean we have to leave it as is, because she's still officially the champion for those years. I don't like it either, but until such time as she is stripped of medals, she's the 2000 Olympic champion. SixBellsChime —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 08:56, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * She returned her medals today: AP story. Do we still wait for IOC to resequence finishes in all these categories, or do we put pink color in her medal table now? --Mareklug talk 22:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Some already stripped it from the page. Don't add them back.  She gave them up and its no surprise what the IOC will do.  Alyeska 22:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Right now it's really down to the IOC to decide how to re-award the medals to the rest of the field. Regardless, Jones' results are to be DSQ-ed. --Madchester 00:46, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Just so we are clear - the medals are still awarded to Marion Jones. She has voluntarily returned them, but she has yet to be officially disqualified. As of this moment she is still the winner of three Oly golds and two Oly Bronzes. --Fizbin 01:34, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's down as medals revoked which is incorrect - she's not (yet) had them taken away by the IOC. If admins are going to fully protect this page, please make sure you get things spot on --Jw2034 07:55, 9 October 2007 (BST)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jw2034 (talk • contribs)

WHat happens to the other people on her relay teams, are the DSQ as well? 67.62.75.193 12:34, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It would appear that the governing bodies (USOC and IOC) are looking at diqualifying the entire squad. No action has been taken yet. --Fizbin 18:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Under IAAF rule 39, if one member of a relay team has an anti-doping rule violation, the whole relay team is disqualified and must forfeit awards and medals. The rule is pretty clear on that.
 * As to the current status, I agree that until the IOC/IAAF revoke her medals, this article can't say that they were revoked. - Eron Talk 19:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The IAAF rule concerning teammates is not always applied. Jerome Young tested positive for PEDs at the 2000 Oly Games, yet the US 4x400 relay team he was on (including Michael Johnson) was able to keep their medals. http://www.redorbit.com/news/sports/181945/michael_johnson_keeps_gold_after_court_ruling/ --Fizbin 21:19, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Looking at the reference, that wasn't an IAAF ruling - they took the medals, then the Court of Arbitration for Sport returned them because the rule affecting teammates wasn't in place at the time of the Sydney Games. So it looks like Marion's teammates may be safe as well. - Eron Talk 23:11, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well the USADA has stripped her of the medals. So she's no longer the recipient of them. Right now they're in limbo as to who they'll finally belong to until the IOC makes a ruling. But Jones is no longer the winner. Infact she's been stripped of all medals and awards from 9/1/00 to the present as of today. It was reported here about 2/3 of the way down the page in addition to other articles. Some are using forfeit, some stripped, but the gist is, she's no logner eligible to have won the medals and no longer has any claim to those awards. JohnnyBGood    t   c  VIVA! 23:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Can the USADA strip medals that they didn't award? (That's a genuine question; if so, I'd love to see the rule.) - Eron Talk 23:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Apparently they can, because they have. I think the technical terms are that they can rule on who is eligible to have received awards, regardless of who is issuing them. Jones is no longer deemed eligible. It's up to the IOC do reissue them to the new "winner", but for now they're just out there in limbo. No one is currently the gold medalist in the respective events she "won". Same goes for her World Championship medals as she was also stripped of those. JohnnyBGood    t   c  VIVA! 23:24, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I do not think it is correct to list her as "Disqualified" from any events. That hasn't happened. This report states "International Olympic and track and field officials are prepared to wipe her name officially from the record books, strip her of her world championship medals, pursue her for prize money and appearance fees and possibly ban her from future Olympics in any capacity." That's prepared to - they haven't done it yet, and the article goes on to state that a disciplinary panel "will make recommendations to the ruling IOC executive board, which next meets in December in Lausanne, Switzerland. IOC president Jacques Rogge could speed up the process by ordering a decision by postal vote before then." An IAAF press release states "a decision on the cancellation of results or repayment of prize money earned by Marion Jones can only be taken once further official information is known and a doping violation has been confirmed." WP:BLP applies here. Stating that she has been disqualified without a reference confirming it is not correct. There's no need to rush to judgement; this article contains the referenced facts - why add things that haven't happened yet? - Eron Talk 01:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Because it actually has happened. Jones as part of her guilty plea and per the USOC and USADA has forfeit all results, awards, and medals from Sept 1, 2000 thru today. She no longer has won those medals. The IOC will of course have to decide what to do with them, but the fact remains, as of today, she is no longer the medal winner. She was not eligible under the USOC to have won them and has been forced to forfeit both the physical medals and the results that went with them, both the world championships and the Olympic medals. This is not limited to just her olympic performances, but any event she participated in from 9/1/2000 on. JohnnyBGood    t   c  VIVA! 01:52, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * So according to the IOC there has been no official determination yet on the disqualification of Jones from the Olympic record books. Now obviously it is just a formality, but one that has not taken place yet and may not take place until December. Until then Jones keeps her Oly winner status, even if she has handed the medals to others in the meantime.--Fizbin 02:02, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well the IOC has not yet determined that THEY would disqualify her. But the USOC and USADA have already done so which in essence has preempted the IOC. So she was not eligible to have competed in 2000 to begin with. They essentially beat the IOC to the punch. I know it's a strange situation, but as it stands right now the IOC awarded medals to a runner who was not eligible to have competed and no longer possesses the medals or the standing they represented. For the moment and until the IOC decides how to re-award them, the Gold and Bronze medals Jones had won, are in limbo. They're not officially awarded to anyone at the moment. Same goes for the World Championship medals and records. JohnnyBGood    t   c  VIVA! 18:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * IAAF Council decided to disqualify all Marion Jones's results from Sep 1st 2000 onward.--Nitsansh (talk) 00:46, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It looks like the IOC has formally stripped her of the medals, as of 7 months ago.   I think it would now be appropriate to edit her medal listing.-- Nytewing07 (talk) 10:17, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Height/Weight
I don't know the actual numbers, but there's no way she - or anybody else - is 5'10" and 115 lbs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.154.42.16 (talk) 21:48, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Childhood
wat waz her childhood like???


 * She came from a broken home (her parents divorced when she was very young), and she said in her autobiography that she resented that he didn't want to have a relationship with her. (This info USED to be in the article and likely got chopped in a round of editing) Her stepfather Ira Toler was the one who got her into athletics, and he died when she was just 12, IIRC.  So, she had a very rough childhood, by all accounts.  Scarletsmith (talk) 07:46, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

She Should not be stripped of her medals
As a matter of Law, we know that no law is retro active. She was tested after each and every one of those competitions, and was found not under any influence of drugs whatsoever than, there is no justification to stripe her of the medals that she won square and fair according to the records in existence. By stripping her of the medals retroactively is against any notion of International law. Remember she competed in the Olympics in an International forum and as such any violations should be in accordance to International standards not otherwise. Even for a matter of discussion we admit that she used those drugs, even if the IOC could produce some sample of her blood sample specimen for testing , those results are useless in the eyes of the law because they cannot be used retroactively. Her samples should have tested positive back then period, not sometimes in the future. It's like committing a crime without any evidence, by passing the test then, It's like clearing you of the crime. But your lawyer could produce evidence to prove your innocence retroactively not the contrary. She should could still contact an International Law Specialist to correct this Injustice in clear violation of her rights. The Law is very precise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.44.43.58 (talk) 08:34, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:NOTAFORUM. ☆ CieloEstrellado 10:04, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Untitled
Almost everything about her life and career have been stripped from this article. The older article had a lot of detail about her life and career, but the article as it exists now looks to be nothing more than a rap sheet. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but this is not a bio of Al Capone or Lucky Luciano, who are notable only as criminals. Jones was notable because she was a sprinter and jumper, the best in the world for a long time. This career lasted decades. Her involvement with the doping scandal only lasted six years at most--2003-2008. Certainly, her almost two decades in the public eye does not become suddenly irrelevant because of this? The article as it exists, would appear to violate the undue weight rule. Anybody else have this concern? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.61.135.212 (talk) 21:56, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

African American
I'm puzzled: could somebody please explain how it is that Jones' African American ethnicity was not mentioned anywhere in the body of the article. Was this just an oversight, or was there a reason it was left out? Cgingold 08:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It's simply not relevant. Marion Jones has done nothing that specifically warrants mention of her ethnic background. If I recall, she's half Belizean. Mipchunk 09:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And her being ethnic Belizean is relevant? That's not even an African country so she is not African-American. NorthernThunder (talk) 03:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Moreso it is not a crime to be an African American,i dont see any reason why her Ethnicity had to be Mentioned.|--Bambimungai (talk) 09:54, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but by the logic used above, being of African descent in Canada would not make you 'African-American'. She seems to be of African descent and has passports in 2 American countries. That makes her as African American as the next African descent person living in the America's from the continent I'm sitting on. No opinion on adding her ethnicity to the article however.--Senor Freebie (talk) 15:04, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

WNBA
Marion has been signed to a 1 year contract with the Tulsa Shock of the WNBA according to a blog report today on yahoo sports http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/post/Former-track-star-Marion-Jones-joins-the-WNBA?urn=top,227243 - haven't seen it in mainstream media as yet, but I'm not a big reader of the sports pages, so it could be out there already. ````  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Irish Melkite (talk • contribs) 02:08, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

third child
Marion gave birth to her third baby eight months ago (as of March 17). I think the article should be updated. Source: http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/article.aspx?subjectid=413&articleid=20100310_413_0_Former861950 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.203.232.5 (talk) 15:47, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Birth of Daughter
She gave birth to daughter Eva-Marie on June 28, 2009. http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/wnba/shock/2010-05-16-marion-jones-cover_N.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.227.105.139 (talk) 00:51, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Done Trackinfo (talk) 01:15, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Second son
Named Amir as noted on espn 30 for 30 about Marion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.70.109.83 (talk) 03:41, 3 November 2010 (UTC)