Talk:Marjane, Marjane

Language
The song was considered to be written in Croato-Serbian or Serbo-Croatian until 1991. From then on it is considered to be written in Croatian. So I was merely attempting to show a continuity of the languages it was considered to have been written in. DIREKTOR 10:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The endings and "propaganda" accusations
I accept your point of view, but I placed the different endings in their historic order. The nationalist ending was merely the earlier communist version with the name "Stalin" replaced by "jesus". As was the practice in other former Eastern Bloc states. For the best example see the Hymn of the Russian Federation. My addition of WW2 info on the song is correct and legitemate. DIREKTOR 23:27, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Just because you think something is correct does not make it so. You do not have any sources and you will be hard-pressed to find any for such an unusual claim. Also, the claim that the "nationalist" version is from the 1990s is ridiculous as it greatly preceded Croatian independence (despite the lyrics being virtually banned in Yugoslavia). The songbook from which I have taken the lyrics dates to the 1970s. --Thewanderer 00:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I will be hard pressed to find a source that shows Marjane, Marjane was a Partisan song?! Did you ever happen to see the old Oscar-nominated movie, The Battle of Neretva? (It was aired on HRT numerous times.) This is not my only potential source, but in a scene during the movie, Dalmatian Partisans sing the song as they prepare to march over the Neretva bridge. The Yugoslav TV-show about Split by Miljenko Smoje, "Velo Misto", also depicted Partisans singing it, and used its melody as a theme song because of its pro-left and Dalmatian chatracter. I will return with concrete sources shortly. DIREKTOR 01:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * So what? Communist-era movies are not reliable sources on the Partisans. Also, even if the Partisans sang the song (which I have not disputed), it does not prove your claim that "the song became immensly popular throughout Yugoslavia during World War 2, when it became a famous Partisan song". You have not proven that it was not already a well-known song before the Partisans. Also, during Yugoslavia the so-called nationalist version was banned, so the regime's version was the only one allowed to be sung - that hardly qualifies it as being a purely Partisan song. --Thewanderer 12:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

1) The nationalist version was not banned by the Yugoslav authorities. Where did you get that from? 2) "You have not proven that it was not already a well-known song before the Partisans." Um... The song was recorded (as a relatively modern song) before WW2, in the late 1930's by Ivo Tijardović. I don't know what you're saying... 3) Ok, the song was sung by the Partisans (I really hope this is not in dispute). And it was a popular song. Popular enough to be the only one to be featured in the Oscar-nominated movie I mentioned. I'd go as far as to say this was the Croatian Partisan song of WW2. 4) Nowhere did I write that the song was a purely Partisan song. All I added was a very important part of the evolution of that song. It was made famous by its role among the Partisans (with new verses added). DIREKTOR 14:26, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Of course it was banned. Obviously, there was no official ban. But anyone caught singing the "nationalist" version would be in quite a bit of trouble with the regime. When communist controls over state began to loosen (1980s) "nationalist" version began to circulate again publicly. --Thewanderer 17:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Lets move this matter to the number "4)" topic in the section below...DIREKTOR 18:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Let's prevent an edit-war
With this last edit every last scrap pf info we both added is present in the article. Let's now leave it be and discuss, to prevent an edit-war.

1) Ok. Tell me exactly what you do not thik is true about this sentence: "The song was popular throughout Yugoslavia during World War 2, when it became a famous Partisan song.".

2) Tell me why should the last historic version to be written (the nationalist (expanded) version) be mentioned first?

3) Tell me exactly why did you vandalize the See also section I added? Do you have a problem with the fact that the song is part of Yugoslavia's wartime heritage? DIREKTOR 15:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * 1)Well, now you've changed it from the original "The song became immensly popular throughout Yugoslavia during World War 2" to "The song was popular throughout Yugoslavia during World War 2". This still insinuates that the song was not popular before World War II, and that it was made so by Partisans.


 * 2)Wikipedia is about notability. The "nationalist" version is obviously more notable, as my sources showed (largest Croatian lyrics site, and Google search of song) so it should go first. Also, you have not proven that the Partisan lyrics were written first. Your only source seems to be from a movie from 1969 while my source is a songbook from the 1970s. Neither actually date the lyrics' origins.


 * 3)The Partisans sang the song. So what? Croatians in the Homeland War and the Bosnian War also sang the song. Does that make it a part of those wars? You've shown nothing to prove the song was central to the Partisan movement. --Thewanderer 17:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

1) Yes, I though you might not edit it... because it insinuates nothing. "The song was popular during WW2", what does this insinuate? I do not accept your new wording.

2) Are you really gonna make me look for a reference showing that the Partisan version of the song was known and sung during WW2? This much is painfully obvious. As for the nationalist version, for that one you will have to find a source dating before WW2 to show that it was older (as this is not that obvious).

3) The song was the song of the Partisan movement. If you want you can add references to the war in Herzegovina...

4) A question, if a painfully realistic Oscar-nominated movie is not a valid source, since when is creative journalism? Do you want me to draw sources from Feral Tribune? The song was not banned in Yugoslavia (this is riddiculous, why would it be banned, because of a reference to the Croatian red, white and blue, or maybe because of the mention of jesus?). If it was not banned (blacklisted) Wikipededia cannot say it was. This I shall not accept much stronger sources. DIREKTOR 18:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Considering the song is still sung in Split today and is considered the official song of the city, I am assuming they sing the "nationalist" version. Could there be a mention that the "nationalist version" is the current version sung at festivals? Last time I was in Split, that is what was played. I doubt they still play the former WWII version publicly (unless I am very much mistaken). --Jesuislafete 19:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

This is mentioned at the beginning. But it could be clarified... DIREKTOR 20:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * 1)Again, where are you getting, "This did much to expand the song's meaning to the level of the Croatian nation instead of just Split and Dalmatia" from? This is very fluffy language which needs a source.


 * 2)Yes, I will. If things are painfully obvious then they should be painfully easy to source. You yourself have been providing a source up until now (some kind of movie). Only now when I have challenged the reliability of the movie are you galking at finding a source.


 * 3)So, if I want to prove something I need sources, but when you want to prove something, everything's painfully obvious...


 * 4)Was flying the Croatian flag banned in Yugoslavia? (The real flag, with the grb.) Officially no. But if you flew it, you'd be in a heck of a lot of trouble. I have found a source from the culture section of a respectable paper (a real paper, not some tabloid with joke headlines) that says it was forbidden (zabranjeno) to sing the right-wing version. If you have anything actually constructive to add, please do.


 * Finally, where does the adjective "nationalist" come from? None of the lyrics seem to be nationalistic in the least. It seems like some sort of crooked Communist-era logic (used to ban the song) that labels these lyrics as nationalistic. Common sense would suggest that they are just patriotic non-Communist lyrics. --Thewanderer 22:33, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

1) Well, I'm sorry you don't like Yugoslav Partisans, but that's what happend. Before WW2 it was just a local Split (at best Dalmatian) song. Later it became what it is today: one of the symbols of the Croatian nation.

2) Very well, I will find you a source that confirms Marjane, Marjane is a Partisan song. Don't you think, however, that the verse "...naprid Partizani!" kinda speaks for itself. I mean the Partisans did not exist after WW2, wich means the partisan version was known and sung during the Second World War. What more you want I really do not know, maybe you think that the whole thing was invented by the evil Yugoslav government after the war?

3) Where is your source that shows the (full) nationalist version was sung before WW2. (Since it really wasn't I don't know where you will find this source but you insisted on sources, so...)

4) Well here's something constructive: we are talking about legislature here. On Wikipedia you cannot say something was forbidden when it was not. I don't know if you know this, but creative journalism does not qualify as a reliable source on Wikipedia. That part won't go into the article without really solid sources.

What?! No! No way, "nationalist" has nothing to do whatsoever with communist propaganda and it was there before I even read the article. This is maybe the cause of the misunderstanding: "nationalist" has a sort of negative connotation in Croatian, not so in English. For instance: HDZ is considered a nationalist party without any insult or degradation intended. Believe me, the title "nationalist version" exactly captures the meaning. DIREKTOR 23:29, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * 1, 2 and 3)It doesn't matter whether you absolutely loved the dictatorial Yugoslav regime or whether I hated it. What matters is whatever we claim has to be cited with reliable sources. I'll place my own sources, you place yours. "Common knowledge" can't be claimed for historic events which should (probably) predate both our births.


 * 4)Fine. The "nationalistic" lyrics may not have been de jure banned, but they were de facto banned, as my source shows. Also, the term "nationalistic" is misleading here without context. Thewanderer 17:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Let's keep it simple. 1) The Partisan version of the song was sung during WW2. ("...naprid Partizani!", remember?) Do you have a (reliable) source that the nationalist version was sung before WW2?

2) I read your source, it is not reliable by Wikipedia standards as it is creative journalism (i.e. some reporter writing his oppinion). If it was "de facto" banned as you say (because of what I cannot imagine), give me (as you put it) concrete evidence: do you have an example of something happenng to a person who insisted on singing the nationalist version (or something like that)?

3) You cannot find the "Stalin" stanza because it was not sung after the Informbiro crisis (as I explained). As for the "red, white and blue" stanza, you may be right, it may not have been part of the Partisan version... I'll double-check. DIREKTOR 18:19, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * 1)Why do I need to find such a source when I am not (yet) making such a claim in the article?


 * 2)You're lucky I follow the rules and actually find sources (something you seem to refuse to do). I can easily prove that Croatian national symbols and songs were banned in Yugoslavia. Among those nationalistic songs was included the "nationalist" version of Marjane, Marjane.


 * 3)Why have you removed the fact tag from the Partisan lyrics? Just because you claim something about the lyrics does not make it true. You are the one who added those crven, bieli, plavi lyrics and now you've removed them. Wikipedia needs a source, not your own personal recollection of lyrics. Thewanderer 19:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

2) Like you said, let's be concrete. Can you prove that this song was banned in Yugoslavia, or can't you? Also, wich national symbols are you talking about? The checkerboard? The red white and blue? The catholic religion?

3) I have several sources in writing over here and am trying to find them on the net. I didn't just invent all this, you know. DIREKTOR 21:07, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Source?
I don't see an actual verifiable source here, just a book you listed. Perhaps I should write up the names of twenty books as sources for anything I like? I think you should find a verifiable source to prove that the milicija actually listened carefully whether a person sang a particular verse of a particular song (in the 1980s no less!), you have no idea how ridiculous that sounds. Also, if that song was indeed illegal, I'd like to see the peace of legislation forbidding it. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 14:11, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Why is this book not verifiable? It's published by Školska Knjiga, probably the most well-known publishing house in Croatia. It's written by a historian who's notable enough to have his own page on Croatian Wikipedia . Finally, the book states that people were sent to jail for singing the song (which is precisely what I claimed), which does not require the song to be illegal. In a single-party state, artificial charges were made. On paper nothing was banned, but in practice many songs, the real Croatian flag, etc. were forbidden. If you think that's not true, refute the accuracy of my source, don't give me some ridiculous personal research about how you think it was impossible.--Thewanderer (talk) 17:06, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, here's my point: we are talking about punishing people with prison sentences, and if you think that this particular song was forbidden by law, please prove that. If it was, however, not forbidden by law, than I do not consider this author's opinion as source enough for such a, frankly outrageous, claim. Even recorded instances of this are not proof that the police of an entire country went about randomly arresting people for singing a song with a different verse than the one that was "allowed". You need legislation, verdicts, not opinions of schoolbook authors, not an incident, but actual law and proof that this was a practice. Croatian history schoolbooks (I assume that's a schoolbook?) are unusually biased in their approach (one more notable example being the invention of a "Croatia-Hungary", a non-existent state). -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 18:03, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Wanderer
...I am continuously amazed at the extent of your hostile attitude. The text of the paragraph I added is a collection of basic facts. Zrinski's conspiracy did negotiate with the Venetians for support (and with virtually everyone else, for that matter). The red, white and blue was adopted in the 1820s/30s. The two noblemen had nothing to do with Split whatsoever. Find positive proof to the contrary or leave the section alone. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 20:13, 21 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Marjane, Marjane is a Croatian patriotic song. It is not a song about Marjan or Split, but of the Croatian patriotism of the people there. Zrinski-Frankopan are important Croatian figures. Quite frankly, your attempt at proving that they have nothing to do with Split has nothing to do with this song.--Thewanderer (talk) 20:18, 21 April 2010 (UTC)


 * "Not about Split." Funny, why is it the official anthem of the city then? You're trying to explain my city's heritage to me? -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 20:47, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

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