Talk:Mark Bailey (rugby union)

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Requested move 13 July 2021

 * Because the nom below used a sockpuppet to support this request, any editor in good standing can open a new move request at any time.  P.I. Ellsworth &numsp;- ed.  put'r there 23:01, 24 August 2021 (UTC)


 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved. Consensus has been reached: 3 Support plus nominator's implicit Support, two Weak oppose. (non-admin closure) Johnnie Bob (talk) 20:28, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Mark Bailey (rugby union) → Mark Bailey (historian) – As the page clearly attests, this person played rugby, yes, at a highly competitive level, whilst a student at Cambridge University, between 1983 and 1990. This was an extracurricular activity not a main profession. Bailey was trained as a medieval historian, obtaining his PhD at Cambridge in 1987, at the same time as his competitive playing. Since then he has worked as a historian, first at Cambridge, now at the University of East Anglia. Ie he played rugby (yes, at a notable level!) competitively for 7 years and has worked as an academic for 40 years, including serving as master of a top rated school in London, Saint Paul’s. The page already includes the relevant links for his current and older affiliations. You can confirm the dates of his competitive rugby playing here http://en.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/player/9657.html. The introduction gives links to his current academic endeavors, including being invited to lecture in probably the most famous and respected history lecture series at Oxford University, the Ford Lectures! His current book is coming out as part of that series, which has produced some of the most influential books in English history. He is competing at the top of academia and Wikipedia identifies him by his athletic endeavors of a few years 30 years ago? This is actually damaging to his current professional reputation (this is not him writing, otherwise the discussion of rugby would be more knowledgeable. Kiwisleep (talk) 19:06, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per nomination. The only other circumstance of a similar nature that comes to mind is Michael Burns (actor and historian), who is currently at the streamlined main title header Michael Burns (actor), since the key aspect of his renown continues to be based upon his career as an adolescent actor rather than upon his later career as a middle-aged (and now senior citizen) academic. In the case at hand, however, Mark Bailey does appear to be at least as well if not better known as a historian than as a young rugby player, although I would also support, if approved by consensus, making an exception in Bailey's case and highlighting both of his claims to notability — Mark Bailey (rugby union player and historian) or the shorter Mark Bailey (rugby union and historian). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:09, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose A renowned historian yes, but he played in a Rugby World Cup for England in 1987 and in the English top division of the time, not just at university. It's difficult to know what a reader would be looking for, as many could be looking for his rugby history, and others more interested in his historical writing and academic speeches. I'm not opposed to moving to Mark Bailey (rugby union and historian, although I don't really like the longer multiple titles, and perhaps Mark Bailey (historian) could be turned into a redirect. I'm happy to reconsider this following more discussion though. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 09:16, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support. His main career is as an historian and he would merit an article as an historian even if he had not played rugby. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:53, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose he was an international rugby player, and to me that gets at least as much coverage as being an academic- most of the sources for his academic career are primary sources from places he worked. I would be fine with some compromise disambiguation however. Joseph2302 (talk) 08:14, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support. Someone's profile is not determined by which of his activities get more coverage or by what activity a particular reader prefers but which of his activities has been more important over time or define the person right now. He is a professor and historian who has received an honor from the top of his profession and has served as such for three decades. He has also served as Master of St Paul's, a top school in London. But he is also famous as a rugby player, where he competed internationally and has been highly acclaimed. His identifier should note that. But historian or professor should definitely be first, as it is the longest standing affiliation. As Necrothesp says, "His main career is as an historian and he would merit an article as an historian even if he had not played rugby." Michael Burns, noted by Roman Spinner, would likely not have received a wikipedia page for just publishing one book--that is rarely enough. Fact is, he is mainly a historian and has been a distinguished rugby player, so the title should not redirect but simply reflect that, that he is an all-round person. A good compromise is (historian and sportsman) or (historian and former rugby player).  Or instead of historian, professor.  But the change should happen. See how he is described here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Jeklu0oBDA. It is simply odd for someone giving the Ford Lectures at Oxford (that's like competing internationally!) to not have that reflected in the description of his profession. The sources for his academic career are from the most distinguished places in the UK!Peter9753 (talk) 12:01, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I sympathise, but also disagree with the fact that all mentions of playing international rugby had been removed from the lead, and just shoved in a general section with early life. The fact is, he's a notable former rugby player as well as a current historian, and the article, both in name and content layout, should reflect both, rather than biasing towards his current career. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:51, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Can someone kindly move this forward so that we can close this? It's hard to believe that there is debate on this given the man's bio. He is delivering the most prestigious lecture series on history at Oxford, is currently a professor of history, and wikipedia editors are debating whether he should have the word "historian" added as a descriptor? At the very least the suggestion by Peter9753 makes sense, to list both, with the current and most long-standing one, namely historian, first. Thanks! Kiwisleep (talk) 04:15, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Note that we don't do this. We only use one disambiguator. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:31, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * And this will only get closed when there's a consensus, which there isn't right now. Also, WP:NODEADLINE applies. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:37, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rugby player too
The version at shows a clear attempt to whitewash his rugby career. He is a former international player, which is worthy of content in the lead, and also in a separate "Sports career" section. It isn't just something to throw away in an early life section for his personal life. Yes he's a hostorian now, but he's also an international rugby player, so editors should stop belittling that contribution. <b style="color:#0033ab">Joseph</b><b style="color:#000000">2302</b> (talk) 22:37, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Schoolmaster
I agree that 'rugby player' is probably not the best description for Mark Bailey. A comparison might be someone like Owen Chadwick who was Master of Selwyn College, Cambridge, and who played Rugby for Cambridge University and the British Lions: he is primarily described as a theologian and historian rather than as a Rugby player.

But surely Bailey's main profession has been as a schoolmaster. Yes he's an historian but he's hardly Thucydides. His Ph.D. was about commercial rabbiting in Medieval East Anglia. I would think that the profile and prestige attached to being a former Headmaster of Leeds Grammar School and St Paul's School probably opens the door to a range of opportunities in terms of Lectureships and Professorships that might be otherwise be more difficult to attain.

Would the word 'academic' cover his scholastic profession and his work as a historian? Then his article could lead with the Statement that 'Mark Bailey is an educator, historian and a former England Rugby Union international'. Just a suggestion.

Incidentally I remember watching Bailey play for Bedford a few times in the early 1980s and it's suddenly occurred to me that that was 40 years ago. It makes me feel very old.

Ndstead (talk) 07:30, 26 July 2021 (UTC)