Talk:Mark Erelli

Notability?
I don't think this person meets the requirements so instead of nominating it for deletion I brought to a notice board here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Notability/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=502719412 I forgot to add the famous people he links to are not really all that famous, but the ones who are, there are no references. Thanks RupJana (talk) 01:59, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Please do not delete. Have found lots of references and will help. Kmzundel (talk) 14:13, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Clean-up
While I appreciate any help, it's my understanding that references aren't necessary in the lead paragraph, so I deleted those refs added by Evabrosenberg and plan to add more references as the article develops. Please do not use references to the Mark's own website or the websites of other musicians. There are better refs available and kindly ask that care be taken in how references are formatted. Please give me time to develop the article further. Kmzundel (talk) 19:03, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Fan POV tag
I've put a fan pov tag on the article as it is written (both in tone and content) like an article from a fan magazine or a bio on the subject's web site instead of a dispassionate (just the facts jack) encyclopedic tone. Here are some examples:
 * The Lead:
 * Because he plays guitar, mandolin and harmonica he is a "multi-instrumentalist"
 * Erelli and McKenna toured in support of Tim McGraw and Faith Hill on their Soul 2 Soul tour including appearances on Good Morning America and at the Grand Ole Opry He was a side musician for McKenna who was the opening act for Faith Hill. Hardly worth a mention in the body and here it is in the lead. Not appropriate IMO.
 * His 2009 tour with Ritter included an appearance at London's Royal Albert Hall--pretty much the same thing here. A minor detail being presented in the lead as an opportunity to name drop about RA Hall.
 * Body of the article (this is just a few, there are many more examples):
 * performed in numerous high school musicals
 * The simple sounds of a voice and a guitar encouraged him to make his own music.
 * " persuaded some of his musical heroes to perform on campus
 * a collection of lullabies and love songs that Erelli originally recorded intending to give to close friends and family members as a holiday gift
 * Gratuitous quotes:
 * "Erelli owns a gift that is polished way beyond his young age. His vocal style will remind many of singers like Ellis Paul and Martin Sexton, and he is every bit the talent of either. With a large dose of country in these songs, Erelli's songwriting is masterful."[5]
 * "Most of the songs have that wonderful flowing, melodic, story quality that we Erelli fans have come to associate with his recordings. A few upbeat toe-tapping tunes were thrown in for good measure. Though not in a morose way, nearly each selection is at least slightly tinged with the themes of loss and/or the difficulties of relationships. This seemed quite befitting the ambiance of the Memorial Hall and what it stands for."
 * "The country has been through a lot, since 2000 really. Before September 11, that election of 2000 was a major thing. So, all the songs come out of that context. If the songs seem related, they all come out of that context over the last four years and they’re all coming through my lens and how I’m looking at the world. They all, in kinda one way or another, deal with the issue of how do you keep on keepin’ on when things seem really grim."
 * "The simple melody, Charlie Rose on banjo, Jake Amerding on fiddle along with Erelli on acoustic guitar, make this song a pleasure to listen to. And it is here that Erelli reveals the little vigils he keeps as his wife and he sneak upstairs to look at the peaceful night scene of their little boy asleep with his dreams. As the lyrics state, 'a fool would ask for more.'"
 * Whether sweet and mellow or raw and raucous sounding, this homicidal assortment is bleeding great!"
 * -- — Keithbob • Talk  • 20:13, 13 January 2013 (UTC)


 * This article also has the problem of being too much like a resume. I 've shifted relevant information from the lead to background and solo career sections, and blanked unnecessary sentences, mainly those that are quotes. His discography and 'songs recorded by others' have zero citations at the moment. The 'Songs recorded by others' is also incredibly vague. I inferred that it's the songs he wrote... ⊾maine12329⊿  talk  07:13, 15 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Although I *am* a fan, I have made a conscientious effort to present what I thought was a neutral POV. I welcome any help on the article in hopes that the fan POV tag can be removed. Kmzundel (talk) 13:55, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks Kmz, I invited Maine12329 to come by and also give input. I don't know Maine and have not worked with them before but I just happened to see them giving good input about surnames on the talk page for Sia Furler and so I invited them to comment here to make sure I wasn't judging the article too harshly.  You've done a great job of gathering sources and expanding the article and it is very much appreciated by the WP community including me. And I don't doubt your sincerity and I really appreciate your civility, cooperation and willingness to collaborate. So thank you very much for all that you do! Best, -- — Keithbob •  Talk  • 17:04, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * And thanks Maine for coming by and helping out. WP is about cooperation and collaboration and your helping hands and fresh perspective are valuable. Cheers! -- — Keithbob • Talk  • 17:12, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm a bit disheartened that you've decided to add the pov tag two months after we discussed the article on my talk page and had reached an agreement about the detail in the lead and had collaborated to some extent on the article's content (or so I thought). I'm not sure why you think the quotes are "gratuitous"......perhaps as a fan I've lost my ability to be objective regarding maintaining a neutral POV. I can say in all sincerity, however, that my contributions are always intended to make an article better than it had been before. Kmzundel (talk) 19:54, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I have never doubted your sincerity and I have praised your work both in my post above and on your talk page Also, you are correct I did reluctantly agree on your talk page that the Royal Albert Hall bit could go back in and we can discuss that further with maine12329 if you like to see if it should go back in again. However the article was under development and I never read the entire article until this week. I understand that you are a fan. I am a fan too of many of the articles I have worked on (Derek Trucks, The Civil Wars, Steve Earle, Bill Kirchen etc.) but we have to temper our personal enthusiasm when creating articles for an encyclopedia like WP. We also have to collaborate with other editors with different points of view. So I understand that you feel discouraged. Wikipedia can be a challenging environment but I hope you will continue your efforts as your contributions are valuable. Cheers! -- — Keithbob •  Talk  • 17:27, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your kind and thoughtful reply. Can we ask WP:Musicians or some other entity for objective feedback? Kmzundel (talk) 18:45, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Sure, that's a great idea. -- — Keithbob • Talk  • 20:39, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Lead Paragraph
I've re-written the lead paragraph and have made some minor changes - which I hope will clarify information - in the body of the article and in the discography. I have also reviewed content to confirm that there is no issue with text being copied word for word from sources cited. Kmzundel (talk) 14:20, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Also....since conflicting information has been passed on to me regarding the need for references in the lead paragraph, and to err on the side of caution, I have included references to the lead. The last sentence in the lead (songs recorded by others) can be verified in the table below the discography. Kmzundel (talk) 14:24, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks KZ, I'll take a look a it. Usually cites are not needed in the lead because the lead summarizes content already cited in the article. However, on contentious articles or when contentious claims are made in the lead then cites are often added. So there is no hard and fast rule, it just depends. But you are correct in saying that most times they are not used or needed. -- — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> •  Talk  • 15:58, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Nice job! I've tweaked it a bit for tone. One thing that still needs to be fixed though is that the 'shared stages with John Hiatt etc' info needs to also be in the article in order for it to qualify for the lead, and I don't believe its mentioned anywhere in the article at present. Cheers! --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 16:14, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I will work on incorporating the statement about "shared stages with....." into the body of the article - probably not before tomorrow. :-)  Blessings of lovingkindness to you. Kmzundel (talk) 20:07, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

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