Talk:Mark Kelly/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer: HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   03:53, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * lead
 * Reference for full name/DOB?
 * see below Tvoz / talk 09:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Image needs a caption and alt text
 * see below Tvoz / talk 09:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Is it worth starting with his rank? I normally would for a military biography, but I appreciate he's not primarily notable for his military service
 * Rank added to leadUtahredrock (talk) 12:49, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * It could do with some expansion so it can be a summary of the article
 * By adding his naval rank, all parts of his life are touched on other than his early life and education. Do they need to be in the lead?--Utahredrock (talk) 12:51, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The last two paragraphs could probably be merged since they both deal with his family
 * While the two currently separate paragraphs could be merged, Kelly's marriage and his notable brother are very different topics. Happy to merge if you think that's better.--Utahredrock (talk) 12:04, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I reworked and expanded the lead a little. I also merged those paragraphs, but if you think it looked better with separate paragraphs, feel free to change it back. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   17:43, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Works for me.--Utahredrock (talk) 17:51, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Naval career
 * This section is pretty thin. Is there anything more published on his naval career? Promotions, deployments, commands? I can't imagine a naval aviator getting to the rank of captain without doing something interesting
 * Agree it's thin, but I haven't been able to find much more and I've looked. Kelly was a distinguished pilot including flying in combat, but that naval service isn't what makes him notable. If more sourced information becomes apparent, I'd like to see this section expanded as well. Does the fact that it's thin now affect whether or not it's a good article? Also, what if there just wasn't much published on this phase of his life? As far as his high rank now, it seems to be as a result of his high profile and distinguished service while on loan to a civilian agency (NASA). The particulars of that arrangement don't seem to be discussed in published materials.--Utahredrock (talk) 12:09, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. If there's nothing more published, there's not much we can do. It won't hold you up at GA level, but it might if you were to take it further.
 * Yeah, this is common for astronaut biographies; often the only source on their early life is the brief NASA biography. Mlm42 (talk) 17:30, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Why is "active-duty" hyphenated?
 * ✅ Tvoz / talk 09:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The Mos requires straight quotes ("")
 * see below Tvoz / talk 09:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Spaceflight experience
 * File:Kelly 2001 3.jpg needs a source for its origin
 * Source added.--Utahredrock (talk) 12:25, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Ditto File:Kelly w crew disc july 2006.jpg—"image from NASA" tells me nothing
 * Source added.--Utahredrock (talk) 12:32, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Dab links: Soyuz, Return to Flight


 * PL
 * How is File:Mark Kelly with Gabrielle Giffords in recovery 2011.jpg PD? It was published on a copyrighted website and may need to be deleted from Commons
 * What is PD? While it was published on MSNBC, the photo is from the office of Congresswoman Giffords, which is indicated in Wikicommons. Is that not sufficient? It's also available via the Gabrielle Giffords Facebook page. Though her office released it, per MSNBC, I don't see the photo on her official congressional site.--Utahredrock (talk) 12:40, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, PD=Public Domain. The photo may have been published by Giffords' office, but my understanding was that PD-USGov and related templates only applied to images taken by employees of the Federal Government, which this doesn't appear to be. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   16:04, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I've put it up for a deletion discussion on Commons. Hopefully the discussion there will settle it and that's all we can do from here. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   16:41, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Added a comment there. ; ) --Utahredrock (talk) 17:11, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * PS--Not sure if you're aware (as a Brit), anyone from Giffords' office is an employee of the Federal Government.--Utahredrock (talk) 18:30, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * There's a lot of weight being given to his wife's shootings. I realise it's a significant event, but it might be worth trimming some of the detail to keep it proportionate, especially given that both the shooting and his wife have articles
 * It could always be cut back, however, this section was written specifically from Kelly's POV using sources to tell that story. I do not believe much of what's written here is repeated in other Wiki articles, though other details of the events certainly are. As a bio on Mark Kelly, details from this significant event are important and interesting--I believe. As long as it sticks to his involvement it seems pertinent.--Utahredrock (talk) 12:40, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I also raised concerns recently on the article's talk page regarding the number of quotations used in this section. But I don't know if this would prevent it from being a GA. Mlm42 (talk) 17:34, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not a huge issue, but there are a lot of quotes. Flowing prose is preferable, but it shouldn't prevent it passing the GA review if everything else is in order. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   17:52, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * ELs
 * That linkfarm will need trimming—most should be incorporated into references or removed
 * Just curious, the term linkfarm seems loaded. I tried to be careful to not include under external links items that are in the references. A lot of these links are to videos which arguably provide unique insights into the subject--allowing Wikipedia to leverage these other medias for people interested in the subject.--Utahredrock (talk) 12:40, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * One other comment on these external links, they include material that previously was included in the article directly, under the shooting section. To reduce the length of that section I removed the material but added some external links. One example is Kelly's statement on January 10.--Utahredrock (talk) 13:48, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

All things considered, a decent article and the above points are mostly minor. I'll put it on hold to allow for them to be addressed. HJ Mitchell &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   05:05, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Responses
Just a few replies:


 * does not allow for the "alt" field: if you look at other astronaut pages (e.g., Jim Lovell, Sally Ride, Scott Kelly, etc.), you'll see they all use the "type" field for caption and have no "alt".
 * Hmm, I'm not used to that template. I'll see if I can find out how to add alt text for the infobox image; meanwhile, the others all need it—it just needs to be a short description of the image, there are tips at WP:ALT.
 * There is already an alt parameter in the template code but it is not mentioned in the documentation. Keith D (talk) 23:36, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmmm- I had tested it though - tried to insert an alt= and it didn't display alt text. Maybe I made an error. Tvoz / talk 04:25, 5 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I see that a source was added for the middle name (I moved it to the end of the name because it's overkill to have it in the middle), but I am not convinced that sourcing is needed for this - most biographies that I've seen do not source middle names unless there's something unusual or controversial about the fact. Similarly, birthdates are not usually sourced in my experience.  Location of birth is, parents' names are, etc., but not the date.  I guess it's ok to do so, but I don't think it's required.
 * Well it needs to be referenced somewhere per WP:V. It's not essential it be in the lead, but it's the most logical place (imo) for it.
 * I agree it needs sourcing. It should be noted that NASA doesn't give his middle name anywhere on their website, for example. Mlm42 (talk) 17:06, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * If there is no published source does it matter if we use his initial (which is published) vs. the name? I didn't change it to Edward and it doesn't seem important to the article, though having a middle initial distinguishes him from other Mark Kellys.--Utahredrock (talk) 17:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, just saw where Tvoz found a source. Hopefully that settles this.--Utahredrock (talk) 17:27, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually MOS:QUOTE calls for no quote marks at all with block quotes, so I've removed them, replaced the workaround with the {{quote| format, and rearranged a few of the photos to allow the STS-124 quote to properly indent. Tvoz / talk 08:48, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I was actually concerned about the quotes around "V" device. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   15:53, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Based on some limited research "V" for these awards seems to be standard usage for the military. It's not a quote per se.
 * Here's a source from Military Times, if you scroll through you'll see many awards with the "V" http://militarytimes.com/citations-medals-awards/list.php?category=Awards
 * Also, that's how the awards were listed in the NASA bio, which is the source here.--Utahredrock (talk) 18:19, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not talking about the "V" itself, I was referring to the quote marks around it, which should be straight ("") and not curly (“”). HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   22:12, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Edit made. I couldn't see what you meant until I went into the edit mode. On my screen they show up the same when the article is displaying.--Utahredrock (talk) 22:27, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh- ha - I didn't see that at all - was busy noticing the block quote issue. Tvoz / talk 04:25, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Wrapping up
OK, I think the majority of my issues have been addressed. We still have the small matter of the citation for the DOB and alt text for the images (don't worry about the infobox image for now). I still think it might be worth trimming some of the stuff on the Tucson shooting, but I'm not going to insist on that for GA. Once those are sorted, I'll be glad to pass this. HJ Mitchell &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   22:51, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I added alt text to all images. Seemed to have worked on first attempts! Also added DOB to early life section. Source for DOB is in his NASA bio and reference was already there at end of paragraph.--Utahredrock (talk) 23:53, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Also found and removed duplicate internal links.--Utahredrock (talk) 00:02, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Congratulations you've got yourself a GA. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   00:40, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Nice! Thanks.--Utahredrock (talk) 02:19, 5 March 2011 (UTC)