Talk:Mark Martin/Archive 1

Links
Question: Should we make the links section "official" links only, or should we put any unofficials ones in there? -- DiegoTehMexican 14:16, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup
To put it nicely, this article is a mess. It needs more information on Mark's pre-Roush years and his Busch Series career. The Car #6 History section in the Roush Racing article should possibly be moved here, since that is a Martin-exclusive section (until Todd Kluever takes over next season. The Matt Kenseth and Jeff Gordon pages are very good models, IMHO.  -DiegoTehMexican 19:52, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Citation needed
There's noted that citation is needed for a statement about Mark Martin's love for rap music (which is well known fact and it amazes me, how you need citations for that). How about http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/news?slug=goldstandard&prov=tsn&type=lgns ? To be exact, at the end of the article - This is. . . Mark Martin

Musical taste: Runs the length of the FM dial.

Who he's listening to right now: Dr. Dre, 50 Cent, Eminem.

I'm quite sure these three qualify as rap. Sincerely, Carnifex, 88.222.177.11 09:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Top 10's vs. Wins
When a driver wins, do you increment wins and the top 10 count, or just the wins? I added Martin's recent Banquet 400 win and updated his win count, but not his top 10 count.
 * Yes, a win also increments the top 10 count. -DiegoTehMexican 19:52, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Infobox
Whew. I updated Mark's infobox with the new cross-series driver template. Here's hoping that he doesn't go and race in ARCA next, or we're going to have to add even more, and this thing's already massive. -- DiegoTehMexican 03:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of the infobox, is it still appropriate to have his (then Roush Racing) car picture there, when he no longer drives for Roush Fenway in the Cup Series? AEMoreira042281 03:49, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

2007 Daytona 500 controversy
"...However, many have questioned NASCAR's decision to delay a last-lap caution, contending that it had cost Martin the victory..."

Why was this deleted?

The 2007 Daytona 500 had the closest--and most controversial (in terms of who really won it)--finish since the 1959 race. This should be mentioned in the article in some way, given its historical relevance.
 * We need verifiable citations. I'm still looking for one.  Note that in every picture I've seen, Harvick was leading when the caution came out – Mark probably would have lost either way, unfortunately. —  Brother  Flounder  04:23, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

The deleted statement acknowledges, in essence, that the finish was controversial. It does not assert that Martin really won; it simply addresses the uncertainty surrounding NASCAR's decision to delay the caution. The fact that the controversy exists--its shelf life extended in the media for more than a week after the event--doesn't need a verifiable citation.

AP motorsports writer Jenna Fryer, about NASCAR's decision: "...Arguing that it was OK because it was the last lap isn't right, either. In 2005, NASCAR froze the field on the final lap at Talladega Superspeedway because of a spinning car way behind the leaders. Tony Stewart crossed the finish line first, but Dale Jarrett got the win because he was ahead when the field was frozen..."

If this rule was applied consistently, there may have been a different Daytona 500 winner. And therein lies the controversy.

Plus, it's yet another near-miss for Martin...a recurring theme throughout his career (i.e., four-time championship runner-up).

Also--a correction to my earlier comment--this may have actually been closer than the 1959 race. Although it took several days to declare the 1959 winner (by looking at photos), the 2007 Daytona 500 was the closest since electronic scoring began.4.247.170.124 01:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)Deej

I also have wondered about who would've been leading at the time of caution so I decided to look at the tape and pictures. When Kyle Busch first spun Mark looked to have been behind but under normal circumstances since Kyle would've slipped down the track on the last lap the caution would've been held. When Matt Kensth and Greg Biffle touched Mark was in the lead and that would've brought out a caution. Even if that didn't, Mark was officially hin the lead until Clint Bowyer flipped over which would've definately caused a caution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gopennsatate (talk • contribs) 21:01, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

pessimist?
Mark Martin is listed as a pessimist on the pessimist page. Is this accurate? It seems like he's had a pretty succesful career. I don't know much about NASCAR but I figured I'd leave a note here because this seemed a bit odd. Eleigh33 04:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC)


 * From Auto Racing Digest, June-July 2003:


 * "...Perhaps past frustrations have hardened Martin, caused him to form a protective barrier around himself--or at least his championship aspirations. It's almost as though he doesn't dare to hope. 'When it comes to competition and getting your heart broken, I'm an eternal pessimist,' confesses Martin..."


 * (See the last few paragraphs in the section above for context.)66.19.76.134 23:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)Deej


 * Thanks for the response! ---eLeigh33 23:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

AS Far as the Daytona finish, this was the 6th anniversary of Dale Earnhardt death, and Harvick replaced Earnhardt in the 29 (3) car. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Requested move (archived)
Mark Martin (NASCAR) → Mark Martin — By far the most famous of the Mark Martins. One is a judge on a state Supreme Court and the other is a cartoonist who is apparently often mistaken for the NASCAR driver. Also included in the nomination is moving Mark Martin to Mark Martin (disambiguation). —Recury 16:17, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.


 * Oppose - I don't think any are sufficiently notable to dominate. Best to leave as it is with the dab in the middle. -- Beardo 14:13, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose - It seems that the existing system works fine, with a dab page. Mike Martin (NASCAR) isn't really notable enough to be the redirect. Since he is mentioned first on the dab page, I think we should just leave as is. Raime 14:27, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:

I don't see where you guys are finding that it is even close. The NASCAR driver has 200-300 incoming links to his article, the others have a dozen or two. 9 of the 10 ghits for "mark martin" on the first page are for the NASCAR driver. All of the 2000 or so Google News results are about him, etc. If you came up with some evidence, your claims could be taken more seriously. Recury 14:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Move requests are not votes, and no convincing arguments have been presented against the driver being the primary meaning of "Mark Martin". This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 11:04, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Mark's personal life
I'm surprised that there is no mention of the death of Mark's father, his wife (Mark's stepmom) and his stepsister that happened August 1998 in a plane crash in Nevada. I first saw this on the ABC program NASCAR In Primetime and I was able to find info about it on Google Books in the book Mark Martin: The Racer's Racer on page 106. Also sure that he is an avid pilot but I haven't taken the time yet to look that up. I plan on creating a personal life section when I have time after I get references down. --KaseyKahneFan 01:57, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps this is also worth including: Martin assumed control of his late father's trucking company (J-Mar Express Inc.) after the plane crash, although I'm not sure if he's still involved in it. He also currently owns Chevrolet and Ford-Lincoln-Mercury dealerships.--Deej —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.247.143.211 (talk) 23:36, 14 January 2008 (UTC) Marks dealership (Ford) is in Batesville according to mapquest and the literature I recieved at the dealership in Batesville, Ar, not melbourne (i think thats what it was) thats listed in your article. I think you've done a wonderful job with his page. I would like to see something about how he is refered to by his peers as "the most physically fit man in nascar" and how nascar is in process of developing a fitness program for their drivers and have stated that it is Mark Martin and Carl Edwards inspired. Thank you for doing such an honorable job for an honorable man. Prettyblueoval (talk) 19:09, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

refrences and was this moved back from mark martin to marck martin(race car driver)
Hey i was just want to help out on this article but we need references badly. I also wonder if the abnove move was reversed? --team6and7 (talk) 14:41, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Birthdate/Age?
I believe that the birthdate and age on this page are wrong. It says at the top that he was born in 1939 and his age is listed as 69, but the bottom of the page lists the category "1959 births." I'm not sure what's correct, but figured I'd submit this post to call it to someone's attention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.58.178.182 (talk) 02:36, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Vandalism stinks!  Royal broil  15:27, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was no consensus. JPG-GR (talk) 00:45, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Mark Martin (racecar driver) → Mark Martin — Primary use of the name. Other people with this name are not commonly known throughout the United States. From WP:COMMONNAME: "What word would the average user of the Wikipedia put into the search engine?" It's the NASCAR driver. —  Royal broil  15:27, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.


 * Weak oppose. Is he really this famous? From the articles it seems to me that Mark Martin (judge) is arguably as notable, and that the current use of the unqualified name for a DAB page is appropriate. Interested in other views. Andrewa (talk) 19:56, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * He's been mentioned on many weekly local and national sportscasts in the United States for around the last 20 years. He has been one of the most famous NASCAR drivers for at least the last 10 years.  Royal  broil  20:47, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I'm not seeing any evidence that this person is famous to the degree of Michael Jackson or someone else who would trump the necessity to use a standard disambiguation page.  RFerreira (talk) 19:57, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see anything in WP:COMMONNAME that someone has to be extremely famous (although I content that this one is) for it to occupy the main name, just that he is "What word would the average user of the Wikipedia put into the search engine." Look at the unofficial beta article view statistics from June 2008 (the latest available): 2714 when he held the main name, 3730 views were redirected to him from Mark Martin (NASCAR), 170 for the judge, 255 for Mark Martin (cartoonist), and 317 for Mark Martin (murderer).  Royal broil 
 * Oppose The plea of WP:COMMONNAME is not appropriate. If this was Jeffrey Michael Gordon → Jeff Gordon, that would be a suitable candidate to apply WP:COMMONNAME. NASCAR, as far as I am aware, is a sport that draws its entire support from within the U.S., and even then from a minority of the country, so I think it is difficult to correctly identify this person as well-known (to satisfy WP:PRIMARYUSAGE) as there will be a definite majority of people worldwide, and probably within the U.S., who have never heard of him at all. As there are currently 5 names on the dab page, each with a claim to notability, I cannot support this proposal. Tassedethe (talk) 22:43, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support for the same reasons I gave in the first one. He is by far the primary usage of "Mark Martin". Recury (talk) 14:22, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support based on my reading of WP:PRIMARYUSAGE and the statistic that Mark Martin (NASCAR) gets more than 10x the views of any of the other Mark Martins. ~ Bigr  Tex  23:40, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose - The race-car driver is the only one of these people that I've heard of previously, but I live in a part of the United States where NASCAR is popular, so my awareness is not a good indicator of WP:PRIMARYUSAGE. Moreover, he's a current celebrity, and his kind of celebrity (unlike notability) is fleeting. With several people from diverse walks of life bearing the name "Mark Martin", I think it is best to be conservative and use Mark Martin as a disambiguation page -- note that the current arrangement prevents the situation where an article includes the phrase "convicted murderer Mark Martin" and the user ends up looking at the article about a living person who's not a murderer. --Orlady (talk) 15:06, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Based on WP:PRIMARYUSAGE and the Google Test. However if this fails I may want to see it moved back to Mark Martin (NASCAR) however since he is also a 5 time IROC Series Champ that name would probably not make sense to use, even though he is most notable for being a NASCAR driver.  Sawblade05  (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 09:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:

This seems to be a repeat of a recently rejected nomination. Although consensus can change it would be nice to see some evidence that there's something new to consider. Andrewa (talk) 19:59, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Not true, the most recent nomination for moving succeeded! Go up several sections. The article was moved afterwards despite previous consensus to have him as the main article.  Royal broil  20:47, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Help!
I tried to remove some vandalism that said Mark Martin is "older than time itself" but now the page was displaying some weird mark-up. I can't remove it but I just want to let people know that I am not the one who wrote the comment in red. Please don't think I am some sort of vandal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hurricane Andrew (talk • contribs) 16:45, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No problem, should be fixed now. Recury (talk) 17:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Requested Move
Hello, Once again requesting a move. The move was requested before, but I still think it needs to happen.

I would suggested a move of Mark Martin (racecar driver) to [[Mark Martin. Then, but the Mark Martin page to become Mark Martin (disambiguation) I think this move is needed as Mark as a race car driver is defiantly the most relevant use of the name.--gordonrox24 (talk) 19:57, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You've ALWAYS had my support, of course. It's clearly the most common use for the name and it seems like a good use of common sense to me. There were a number of people unfamiliar with ANYONE with his name that opposed in the last round. You really should go through WP:Requested moves since it's clearly it's not uncontroversial. The NASCAR driver's LEGENDARY career just keeps on growing... one of the few drivers to win after 50 years old, one of the top 50 drivers of all-time even as he was hitting his career peak...  Royal broil  02:50, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I will try to get an admin to do it for me. I don't want to wait through WP:Requested moves if I have to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gordonrox24 (talk • contribs)
 * I am an admin. Being an admin doesn't mean that we can bypass any normal rules. Unfortunately we need to wait.  Royal broil  11:54, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that is based more on the admins preference. If the admin doesn't mind doing something when requested on their talk page then I don't see a problem.--gordonrox24 (talk) 20:29, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * An admin who knowingly uses their powers against consensus is abusing their power and will probably lose the admin bit. They never should never have received the bit in the first place. Please list this at WP:Requested moves.  Royal broil  11:59, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If the move is uncontroversial and without contest, how is it against concensus? I will list it.--gordonrox24 (talk) 20:07, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The move is controversial, since there were objections to using the name with the last unmove attempt.  Royal broil  01:38, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Move?

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was moved to Mark Martin. The disambiguation page will be moved to Mark Martin (disambiguation). Aervanath (talk) 20:20, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Mark Martin (racecar driver) → Mark Martin &mdash; Mark Martin as a race car driver is the obvious main use of the name. — gordonrox24 (talk) 20:15, 28 May 2009 (UTC)}}
 * Mark Martin →  — per above move, the contents of the current Mark Martin article must be placed here. —  --gordonrox24 (talk) 20:15, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Is Mark Martin (racecar driver) the main use to everybody, or only to car racing enthusiasts? Page Mark Martin is currently the disambig page. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:19, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Strongly Support move Mark Martin is a very well known sports figure in the United States. All other uses are quite minor in comparison to what is considered a legend in his field of sport. He was named one of the 50 greatest NASCAR drivers of all-time back in 1998, and he has continued making major contributions to the field since then. He won 2 races in 2009 so far, becoming only the third driver to win after being 50 years old. He is widely considered to be the best driver to never win the championship  even in a Chinese source, with finishing second in season points 4 times. He won the International Race of Champions 5 times - a series that pitted top American all-star racers against each other in "equally-prepared" cars. Another NASCAR driver said "The guy has been at the top of his game in the sport for 30 years" . The article for the comedian with this name even has the unsourced sentence "Martin is often mistaken for the race-car driver Mark Martin; this is a frequent subject of his comics in recent years." The other people are way too minor to take away the main use from the racer - just look at the state of their articles compared to his. The judge is mainly known only within the state of North Carolina (one of the 50 states), the comedian's article is small, the murder's article is a stub, and the pastor has a stub. The racer has been a household name for U.S. sports fans for decades. It's sad that the previous controversial move was done boldly, and the person who did the bold move without consensus got the default "keep as is".  Royal  broil  02:11, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Support: Per my nom, and reasons stated above.--gordonrox24 (talk) 10:56, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Support He does seem to be the most notable person named Mark Martin.  TJ   Spyke   16:24, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Support per Royalbroil. —  Brother Flounder  23:24, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose as previously. "NASCAR, as far as I am aware, is a sport that draws its entire support from within the U.S., and even then from a minority of the country, so I think it is difficult to correctly identify this person as well-known (to satisfy WP:PRIMARYUSAGE) as there will be a definite majority of people worldwide, and probably within the U.S., who have never heard of him at all. As there are currently 5 names on the dab page, each with a claim to notability, I cannot support this proposal." Tassedethe (talk) 23:46, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I have two things to point out here. Firstly, four of the five Mark Martins on the disambiguation page are American, and all of the support on this page so far (and most of the support I've seen in past nominations) comes from Americans.  The only non-American is a British murderer sentenced over a year ago.  Secondly, I dispute that NASCAR is a "minority" of Americans.  NASCAR held 17 of the top 20 attended sporting events in the US in 2004 and continued to draw regular sellout crowds at most venues through 2008 (though attendance this year has been down due to the economy). —  Brother  Flounder  02:12, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: All in the USA? I believer the NASCAR Canadian Tire Series runs right in Canada. This article is not about Nascar, it is about Mark Martin who happens to drive in a Nascar series. The first time I saw Mark Martin he was much younger running an ASA race(I think it was ASA) in Canada against Junior Hanley and others. He had two broken legs. They lifted him into the car, and he went and won the race.
 * My point here? This person in the main use of the name. Type Mark Martin into google. Go to www.google.as so that it isn't American. Do you see any results for anybody but the race car driver? I think not.--gordonrox24 (talk) 11:45, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Support per my old nom. "The NASCAR driver has 200-300 incoming links to his article, the others have a dozen or two. 9 of the 10 ghits for "mark martin" on the first page are for the NASCAR driver. All of the 2000 or so Google News results are about him, etc." It is not close. Recury (talk) 14:52, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Changeing a dab page in my opinion requires a really high standard.  I don't see that in this case.  Vegaswikian (talk) 04:48, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Was this canvassing?  Royal broil  05:16, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Previous comment struck. Vegaswikian replied that a second discussion was happening at Talk:Mark Martin.  Royal broil  05:32, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Which resulted in not moving Mark Martin to Mark Martin (disambiguation).
 * Comment. As WP:RM is currently undergoing changes, there hasn't been an effective way to request a multimove for a week or so. Since many more people have participated in this discussion than in the one at the dab itself, and there is actual evidence presented here, I don't think that close should be held against this request (on which I myself have no particular opinion). Dekimasu よ! 09:38, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: The discussion on this page is the primary discussion. I added the move tag to that page after I had already taken this move request to WP:RM an an admin there told me to place the move tag with a little reasoning on all pages involved.--gordonrox24 (talk) 14:05, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Thanks for your support and opinions guys!--gordonrox24 (talk) 00:29, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Expansion
I have applied the expansion tag to the article and reassessed the article as C class - getting closer to B class. The major issues - the article doesn't get into ANY details about the bulk of his career from when he started in 1987 until his "retirement". It also needs reliable sources added for many statements in the article.  Royal broil  12:21, 30 August 2009 (UTC)