Talk:Mark R. Isfeld Senior Secondary School

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Possible sources
I found this, but haven't been able to find the original articles online. I also found this and this, but not sure if they are usable or how to use them if they are. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:07, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I like the Record ref since it ties the namesake and the bears into an activity at the school. It's late here so I'm signing off for the night. Will revisit and continue working on it tomorrow. Meters (talk) 08:11, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * This CMEA page looks good. It uses one of the original articles you found a copy of and clearly states that the program started by Isfeld and his mother was still going long after his death (more than 1 million by 2012, and other sources are easily found to show program is still active) and that the school was the first to be named for a Canadian peace keeper killed in action. Meters (talk) 05:27, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Another reason to try and find an original copy of the articles from your first source: I'd like to include when the school became a high school. One of the articles seems to say it was when it was renames (makes sense) but Google news archive does not have the Comox Valley Record or the Vancouver Sun for 2001. Meters (talk) 05:48, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * One of our existing refs confirms this so I'll fix this when i CE it. Meters (talk) 05:51, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I saw the CMEA page, but wasn't sure if that would be more suitable as an EL than as a RS. I've also been trying to find a little more info about the school prior to the renaming, but haven't had much luck so far. I can't remember where I read it yesterday, but I think the switch from a middle school to a secondary school might have had something to do with a district plan to eliminate middle schools due to declining enrollment numbers.
 * Anyway, I did find this as well, but that doesn't seem too relevant encyclopeically since the school was one of three temporarily closed because of the incident. There's also this, but I don't know anything about organization Rennie, and this from 2008 and this from 2015-16, but don't know if that information can be used. This might be something interesting worth mentioning, but again not sure. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:54, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Inaccurate Information
Hello, I have noticed that some of the information listed on this page in wildly inaccurate, and as it has become somewhat of a dispute/edit war involving John from Idegon, including on my personal talk page, I have been advised by Ad Orientem to open a dialogue here. My concerns are as follows:


 * The list of sports teams has an inaccuracy in that Isfeld hasn't had football teams since at least 2004, I know this as I am student of this school, however no reliable source exists to back me up.
 * Edit: I found and cited a reliable source. Issues here were corrected (for now at least).


 * Secondly, I added the school logo, however 'somebody' challenged it and removed it, claiming copyright violations, with no supporting evidence. (If you check the school website, you will find no copyright symbols or blurbs anywhere on or around the logo or the site itself).


 * Lastly, the list of notable alumni is inaccurate, due to incorrect cited sources, and a lack of information, as 'somebody' removed it before I had a chance to cite sources backing it all up, claiming it unsourced and apparently irrelevant, although it was not so, as it provided reasons why these people are notable. In addition, Thomas Green, a newly minted alumni member was removed from the list, as unnotable, although he is, as he plays semi-professional baseball, soon to be MLB draft eligible.

I do believe discussion of these issues is warranted, as they are all pertinent to the page and the school. Thank you, Fhsig13 (talk) 01:58, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * The source cited in the article for the football team is this, and it appears that was placed online by the school. I'm not sure when that was, but it does list "Football - Jr. & Sr. Boys" on page 2 under "EXTRA-CURRICULAR SPORTS – SEASONS OF PLAY". Maybe this information is incorrect, but the school needs to correct it if that's the case. This website also seems to imply that the school has a football team (Tier II), but their information might be outdated as well. I did find this which doesn't list any coaches for football, but I'm not sure it's for the same school. The coaching lists for 2016 and 2015 also don't list coaches for football. Sometimes on Wikipedia the term "football" can be confusing because of Association football and American football, but I don't think that's the case here since soccer seems to be being used by the school in all the sources I found and the one cited in the article. One thing to try and look for would be to find some kind of newspaper article/official announcement of the school discontinuing football. Schools often do such things when they drop a particular sport because they usually have a financial or other reason for doing so. If you can find anything like that, add a link to this discussion.
 * As for the logo, I tried to explain things at c:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Isfeld Logo.png. There does appear to be a claim of copyright ownership at the very bottom of the school's website, but Commons is going to assume that the content is protected by copyright even if there wasn't absent any clearly worded statement on the website stating otherwise. It is your responsibility as the uploader to clearly show the file has been released as such. Moreover, unless you created this logo, you cannot claim it as your "own work". Finding an image online, downloading it onto your computer, and then uploading it to Commons does not make you the copyright holder or make you the creator of the image file. My suggestion to you would be to re-upload the file locally to Wikipedia as non-free content and then add it to the article's infobox. The technical process of uploading a file to Wikipedia and Commons is the same and you can use Wikipedia:File Upload Wizard; only select "Logo" for the licensing. If you're not sure how to do that, ask for help at Wikipedia:Files for upload.
 * As for the alumni entries, schools have lots of alumni and sometimes WP:CSC need to be established for determining who warrants inclusion. The most basic criteria for inclusion per WP:ALUMNI is that the individual in question at least have a satand-alone Wikipedia article written about them. So, if Thomas Green doesn't yet have such an article, then it unlikely the consesnus will be to add his name to the section until he does. Notable alumni sections are easy places for people to try WP:Namechecking, but that's not really the purpose of the article and not really considered to be acceptable practice. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:29, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I just wrote a lengthy reply to this, and edit conflicted with Marchjuly. He (virtually word for word, actually) said everything I had (I did add a lengthy explanation of notability, as it applies to alumni lists, but that was just instructional, not part of the argument). So, yea, ... What he said. John from Idegon (talk) 02:57, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * You were WP:BOLD and made changes to the article. These changes were then subsequently reverted by another editor, so you then initiated discussion on the article's talk page which was the right thing to do per WP:BRD. "BRD" means "Bold, Revert, Discuss", it doesn't mean "Bold, Revert, Revert Again, Discuss" and the latter can quickly lead to edit warring. The source for the sports teams you added to the article helps, but now you need to wait and see how others respond to see if a consensus can be established for the changes your proposing. People get WP:BUSY so sometimes it can take awhile for others to respond. As for Thomas Green, as I pointed out above these types of lists generally only include individuals who are either (1) already have a Wikipedia article written about them, or (2) assumed to be Wikipedia notable enough about them to have an article written about them. If you think Green qualifies for (2) then please write the article about him first. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:59, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * My apologies, I did that erroneously. I will create a standalone article for him, thus increasing the likelyhood of a consensus. Also, I have followed your suggestion for the logo, and will re-upload it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fhsig13 (talk • contribs)


 * I looked at the source you added (for reference, this). Perhaps I'm missing something, but I see nothing in it that either verifies or denies the existing copy. As an aside, I also see nothing in it to indicate the school principal wrote it, and as is clearly indicated right next to the © at the bottom of the page, the publisher is the school district, not the school. You cross three RR on your next edit, so I'd strongly suggest you work this discussion through to its conclusion before editing the article again. I'd also suggest you familiarize yourself with WP:GNG, WP:NBASEBALL and WP:NCOLLATH prior to investing your time into a biography for Green. There is no indication he meets any notability guideline. John from Idegon (talk) 03:24, 26 June 2018 (UTC)


 * I have created a biography page for Thomas Green (Baseball Player). Also the source I added shows that we do not have a football team, as it isn't listed there. Fhsig13 (talk) 03:35, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the article but I am doubtful that it meets our criteria for inclusion in the encyclopedia. The criteria are explained WP:ANYBIO and more specifically for athletes at WP:NBASE. If you can find grounds for establishing notability you should add them. For now I am going to move your article into a subpage so you can work on it. We call this userfying. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:03, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Can we not simply add him on the grounds that he is notable to the school, not to baseball in general? That was my angle on this. Fhsig13 (talk) 04:09, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

By that logic, the school also does not have aquatics, track, soccer, cross country, etc. That's not correct, is it? John from Idegon (talk) 04:15, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Sorry we cannot add articles like that. Encyclopedic notability is not inherited. On a side note, Something seems to be wrong. I just tried to move the article but it appears to still be in the mainspace. Hmmm... -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:16, 26 June 2018 (UTC)


 * That would be because he recreated it one second minute after you moved it. John from Idegon (talk) 04:20, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * LOL Ok I thought I was losing it. I have deleted the recreated article. The userfied article can be found here. User:Fhsig13/Thomas Green (Baseball Player). It should not be moved back into the mainspace or recreated until we have established encyclopedic notability. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:22, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * You can feel free to work on the article you created which I have moved and marked as a draft. Once you think it is ready and meets our guidelines you can send to WP:AFC for review. I also corrected a bad link I gave above to the wrong notability criteria. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:32, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * (ec multiple times)As asked to on Fhsig13's talkpage I will be looking at the above issues and giving my opinions.
 * First, Thomas Green: His attendance at the school is referenced in the new article Thomas Green (Baseball Player), but not well. It is in the Parksville Qualicum Beach News reference but it is not obvious that the high school claim is sourced since it is not footnoted. Easy to fix but I will not bother in light of the following. The person does not appear to be notable. He is not even a minor league player, let alone someone who has played, coached, managed, umpired, etc in MLB or any of the other listed leagues, and he has not played ion a national team, so he fails WP:NBASE. He's just a high school baseball player who has committed to play University ball. Despite the claim in the article that he "was signed on May 22nd, 2018" and is "playing for the Cuesta College Cougars, in the NCAA Division I", the fact is that he has not yet played for them. The 2018 season ended in May. The article is seriously overstating things. The cited source simply says that he committed to playing for the team, not that he signed, and certainly not that he is already playing for them. Simply playing college ball is not notable. Simply having committed to playing college ball is even less so. Since he cannot be presumed to be notable based on his baseball, he has to pass WP:BASIC and I'm not seeing "significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject." I will be nominating this article for deletion, and he should not be listed as a notable alumnus. Meters (talk) 04:34, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I think we are tripping over each other here. Too many cooks in the kitchen. I am going to bow out. If I am needed please ping me. Off to bed for now. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:38, 26 June 2018 (UTC)


 * I added an AfC template to it. All you'll need to do is click the submit button when you are ready for it to be reviewed. Please take advantage of this. I'm sure Ad Orientem will confirm the article he userfied could have been speedy deleted without discussion, and as you can see, Meters also concurs. John from Idegon (talk) 04:43, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I do concur. In it's current form the article/draft doesn't make a plausible case for encyclopedic notability and I doubt would even pass the lower standard of importance for CSD A7. That said, it's a draft now so it's not hurting anything. But I would not submit it for review until you have a solid case for its passing ANYBIO or NBASE. Feel free to ask one of us to check it if you are in doubt. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:52, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, has WP:COI been considered here? - wolf 02:38, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Reboot
I think the logo issue is clearly settled. It appears the notable alumni issue can also be called settled at least for now. So can we concentrate on the athletics section? It appears there may be a usable source on a PDF linked from the school's athletics page. I cannot check it right now (#$&@ phone won't open a PDF). John from Idegon (talk) 05:00, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Using a source from the school is of course suboptimal, but lacking a better source, it could suffice until a better source is located. John from Idegon (talk) 05:04, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * (ec)Second, the football team. This is confusing. We have conflicting sources on the school's site. The undated school handbook http://www3.sd71.bc.ca/School/isfeldschool/students%20and%20parents/schoolhandbook/Documents/SCHOOL%20INFORMATION%20AND%20PROCEDURES.pdf lists the season of play for football (and, as pointed out, clearly this is Canadian football since Soccer is listed separately). On the other hand, neither the 2017-18 http://www3.sd71.bc.ca/School/isfeldschool/Programs/athletics/Documents/Coaching%20List%202017%202018.pdf#search=sportsand nor the 2016-17 http://www3.sd71.bc.ca/School/isfeldschool/Programs/athletics/Documents/CoachingList%202016%202017.pdf#search=sports list of coaches lists football teams. The handbook also list several other teams that do not appear on the list of coaches (i.e., Grade 8 boy's soccer, Grade 9 boy's soccer, Grade 8 girl's soccer, and Grade 9 girl's soccer, and both Jr and Sr girl's field hockey while there appears to be only one team on the coaches lists). The school handbook also fails to list several teams which do appear on the coaches lists (i.e., Grade8/Jr boy's rugby, Sr boy's rugby, girl's rugby, ultimate, and mountain biking). Given the various discrepancies and that the handbook is undated, it seems much more likely that it is outdated rather than that both dated coaching lists are incorrect and that the editor who claims to be a student there is incorrect. We should remove football from the list of sports. Meters (talk) 05:15, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * We should drop the school handbook reference as far as the athletics teams go, but I see no reason why Fhsig13 is trying to remove the BC School Sports ref https://www.bcschoolsports.ca/sites/default/files/2017-18%20Member%20school%20list_0.pdf that shows that the school competes in Zone E (Vancouver Island) of BC School Sports. Meters (talk) 05:22, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Just a comment, unfortunately I have not been able to find a BC School Sports page that lists which schools compete in which sports. Meters (talk) 05:26, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * So, just to recap for the technology challenged one (me), we've got two discrepant self published primary sources, one dated more or less currently and the other undated? And 0 secondary sources? That leaves us with the suboptimal approach of prioritizing the dated one and using it; trying to cobble sourcing together from newspaper accounts, or removal of the information pending sources. Or tagging it as unsourced or refimprove and revisiting removal in a year or so if not improved. I go with the latter, and if the PDF supports removal of football do so. are there any websites that cover Canadian high school sports like Maxpreps does down here? That would be suboptimal too, but at least it would be secondary, and could give us two sources that agree, which is what I look for when there are divergent sources. John from Idegon (talk) 07:06, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * We actually have two self-published primary sources that agree if we consider the 2016-17 coaches list to be separate refs. There are significant changes between the content of the two docs so it's not a case of just duplicating a doc and changing the date. I'll look again for some league results, but it'slate here so it will have wait. Meters (talk) 07:14, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * And to further confuse things, this school page lists a Jr football team (but not the Sr football team also mentioned in the handbook). Meters (talk) 05:15, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Would it be acceptable to just do a general description of the school athletics support by a general source, or do the individual sports all need to be listed? Perhaps that can be supplemented by content about any individual school teams winning regional/provincial championship (if this has happened). Maybe focusing on specific accomplishments of individual teams which can be properly sourced, perhaps such like this or this is a way forward. I'll admit this might be reaching a bit, but it doesn't seem like we're going to find a single irrefutable RS which lists all of the current school sports when the school itself seems to be providing conflicting information in their official materials. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:54, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * The BC Secondary Schools Football Association still lists the Mark Isfeld field on their list of field locations, but there are no Mark Isfeld teams listed in any of the provincial high school leagues for the current season Grade 8, Junior Varsity, AA Varsity, or AAA Varsity
 * I'm convinced there are no football teams at the school. Meters (talk) 06:13, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I should have been looking for a provincial football organization from the start, rather than looking for lists of schools participating in various sports at the provincial athletics association level. Meters (talk) 06:18, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I think this is definitive, so I've boldly removed the team from the article. Feel free to undo if anyone thinks this needs more discussion. Meters (talk) 06:23, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Ski & Snowboard Team
Was just curious if this should be treated as one team or two sports? The current style seems to be treating each sport independently of the other, but that might just be because "Baseball" means "Baseball Team", etc. The word "Team" is not being used in any of the other entries, and it seems that "Skiing" and "Snowboarding" would be more appropriate if these are supposed to be treated as individual sports. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:26, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * BC Sports combines both under one sport listing, but there are separate championships for skiing and for snowboarding. There are boys', girls' and combined championships in both skiing and in snowboarding, but no combined skiing/snowboarding championships. https://www.bcschoolsports.ca/commissions/skiing-and-snowboarding Meters (talk) 06:33, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * From the BCSS Alpine site it appears that skiing and snowboarding events are run at he same time. Meters (talk) 06:38, 27 June 2018 (UTC
 * So, one team but separate sports, I think. The provincial championship material refers to the "ski teams" and "snowboard team" as separate entities. Meters (talk) 06:41, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I was wrong about the use of "Team". There's also "Mountain Bike Team". My perspective might be different since I attended high school/univeristy in the US. US schools might have both sports teams and sports clubs, with the "team" being used for more organized officially sanctioned scholarship-eligible sports belonging to a conference and participating in official games/tournaments, while a "club" might be more of an informal activity of some kind. For example. my university had a NCAA Div.I sports teams, but it also had sports clubs which were considered to be not at the same "level" as the "official" sports teams. I'm assuming this is probably the similar for Canada. Would "snowboarding" mean "Snowboard Team" and "mountain biking" mean "Mountain Bike Team" in Canada? If it does then, the "team" seems unnecessary in a section titled "Athletics". Similarly, "boys team" and "girls team" also seem unnecessary, when simply "boys" or "girls" would do the trick. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:58, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * The "team"s are redundant. It's not consistent, but I think most of them were simply meant to differentiate team sports (e.g., soccer, volleyball, basketball) from sports where students participate as individuals (e.g., track, cross country, wrestling) even though there may still be a team championship. I'll check to ensure that all of the listed sports are provincially sanctioned. I have my suspicions about Mountain biking, for example. There are often inter-school city or regional sports which are not sanctioned b y the provincial body. Meters (talk) 07:27, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the looking into this. -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:56, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Mountain biking is indeed a provincially sanctioned sport. According to BC Sports there are "62 provincial championships organized by 19 active sport commissions"; however, the commission list shows 21 commissions:
 * Aquatics
 * Badminton
 * Basketball-Boys
 * Basketball-Girls
 * Cross Country
 * Curling
 * Field Hockey-Girls
 * Football-Boys
 * Golf
 * Gymnastics
 * Mountain Biking
 * Rugby-Boys
 * Skiing and Snowboarding
 * Soccer-Boys
 * Soccer-Girls
 * Tennis
 * Track and Field
 * Ultimate
 * Volleyball-Boys
 * Volleyball-Girls
 * Wrestling
 * All of the sports listed on the various Isfeld sources are provincially sanctioned sports, with the exception of girls' rugby. Meters (talk) 05:35, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Strange. It appears that BC Rugby sanctions the high school girls' championships for both 7s and 15s, and the high school boys' championship for 7s, but BC SPort sanctions the high school boys' championship for 15s. Meters (talk) 05:47, 28 June 2018 (UTC)