Talk:Markham, Ontario

Untitled
A section about Chinese immigration and development in Markham would be useful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.197.241.71 (talk) 18:39, 17 June 2004 (UTC)

An anonymous user just added "ATI, IBM Canada, Apple Computer Canada and many other big-name companies choose Markham as their home in Canada." Ordinarily I'd have no reason to doubt this, but this same user had one other edit he did on Wikipedia - changing the CN Tower article to indicate that the tower was located in Markham. This raised a few flags in the back of my head that maybe this guy's not very credible. :) Anyone interested in checking these facts? Bryan 04:54, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I was born and raised in Markham - ATI, Apple, IBM, Motorola, Lucent and others are indeed in Markham. - quanta 23 Sep 2004 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.101.196.18 (talk) 20:05, 23 September 2004 (UTC)

Paving over A1 farmland is more of a jab at urban sprawl than a description of the area's culture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hotmayo (talk • contribs) 12:25, 26 January 2005 (UTC)

Isn't Markham bounded by Woodbine Avenue or Leslie on the West? Not Yonge street? As for ATI, etc... those companies are located in Thornhill - they're JUST (a tad) west of Markham. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mshe (talk • contribs) 19:28, 29 January 2005 (UTC)

Thornhill is a part of Markham. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LittleMatchGirl (talk • contribs) 02:14, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Thornhill (east of Yonge) is a part of Markham. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.24.71.154 (talk) 03:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

- Facts are true! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.102.200.161 (talk) 18:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC) Markville mall is not the only mall in Markham. its the only "white" mall.... changed main page to refelect this. used "north american" rather then "white"... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.102.200.161 (talk) 18:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Sholdice Clinic is not in Markham rather Thornhill thus has been removed from artical —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.102.200.161 (talk) 18:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thornhill is a community within Markham, so the clinic has been readded. --Maelwys 19:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Calling Markville mall the only "North American" mall just sounds silly, since obviously Pacific Mall is also north american (it's in North America, afterall). I've reverted this to the previous wording for now, but only because I couldn't yet think of a better way to phrase this remove the weasel word "major" being used to describe Markville. Maybe I'll just flag it for now and hope somebody else can come up with a better description while I'm still thinking. --Maelwys 19:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Isn't Markham bounded Yonge street.At the 404 Markham's north boundary drops down to Highway 7. Thus all of Thornhill that is between the 404 and Yonge from Highway 7 to Steeles Avenue is in Thornhill. This portion of Thornhill is in Markham. As for ATI, etc... those companies are located in A section about Chinese immigration and development in Markham would be useful. Sholdice Clinic is not in Markham rather Thornhill thus has been removed from artical, again this part of Thornhill is in Markham.:Calling Markville mall the only "North American" mall just sounds silly, since obviously Pacific Mall(Is now listed as one of the 4 best attractions in the GTA) is also north american (it's in North America, afterall). I've reverted this to the previous wording for now, but only because I couldn't yet think of a better way to phrase this remove the weasel word "major" being used to describe Markville. Maybe I'll just flag it for now and hope somebody else can come up with a better description while I'm still thinking. --Maelwys 19:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC) Edited by Regional Councillor Gordon Landon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.210.160.9 (talk) 16:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Technically Pacific Mall is a "North American" mall due to geography and location, but it is clearly Chinese in its style. Markville Mall is really North American in both location and style. It could be called a white mall by some, but it is really meaning North American-style and perhaps, a neutral mall of the town/city or not a specialized mall. A typical mall/shopping area.-A. Sanchez, 29 June 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.230.11.188 (talk) 22:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * They are in Markham. You ask how I know? My 3 of my uncles work at 3 of those place. =) TALKIN   PIE EATER   REVIEW ME  15:52, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

A Future Merge
Hi. I just thought I'd drop this message here to let people know. An article with a theme in connection to Markham has been VfD recently. In that discussion, the consensus that appears to be forming points to merging the contents of that article with this article and turning that other article into a redirect page pointing here. It was said that this article is already experiencing lengh issues, and that breaking it would be necessary. It was then suggested that, since the contents of the other article are not notable enough to merit a separate article, once the merge is done, a different section of this article could be separated in a new article. If the consensus stays that, I may be the one to copy and paste that content to this article and turn the other one into a redirect, but I will not break this article. I shall leave this task to those who are more involved with it, if they so choose. If anyone would like to participate in the VfD discussion, please visit the page linked in this message. Regards, Redux 30 June 2005 21:02 (UTC)

"Whites are a minority"
Can one really say whites are a minority in an area where they are the largest group? Double Blue (Talk) 23:45, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
 * "Plurarlity" is a better word. -- Earl Andrew - talk 00:08, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I consider whites to be the minority myself being one of them, perhaps because I consider a minority to be any number less than 50% (IE think a minority government) -Rob 03:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

"Woodside Square is NOT in Markham"
Just for common knowledge, Woodside Square is NOT in Markham, it is in Toronto (ex-Scarborough), WELL past the border, i.e about 2 - 5 kilometres south of the border between Markham and Toronto. Greatlife15 30 March 2006, 19:26

NO whoever said that is right, yes there is a woodside square in Markham, but there is also one by the same name beside FMP(first markham place) - RIPped —Preceding unsigned comment added by RIPped (talk • contribs) 01:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * One way or the other, it's not worth mentioning in the article, IMHO. PKT 14:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

there is a high again community in markham too (though i'm white). and black community as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.204.16.30 (talk) 13:29, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Flag
FOTW has the flag of Markham here: http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-on-mm.html but it is not very usable for this page. Can anyone find/make a better one? thanks. -- Earl Andrew - talk 20:51, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

City or town
Given its population, Markham is easily a city. It is NOT a town in dictionary terms. -- Andrew LuimesAndrew Luimes 20:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Andrew, Markham is large enough to incorporate itself as a city, if it's councillors wish to do so. However, legally, it is currently a town. We should stick to facts, not what "could be". I'm going to modify the statement in the article a bit. Mind  matrix  20:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I read the articles on the terms city and town, and since "legal status" is what defines it as a town, we should call it as such. - The Lake Effect 07:39, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Microsoft is in Mississauga
Microsoft is NOT headquartered in Markham. It is based out of MISSISSAUGA. IBM is not headquartered in Markham. It is based out of TORONTO, albeit in a part of Toronto very close to Markham. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.96.180.245 (talk) 16:52, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Not according to IBM: About IBM (scroll to bottom). IBM's offices are on the north side of Steeles, which is the boundary between Toronto and York Region. That is, IBM's offices are at the southern-most edge of Markham. Mind  matrix  17:06, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, here's their mailing address. Note the line containing the city information... IBM Canada Ltd.; 3600 Steeles Avenue East; Markham; Ontario L3R 9Z7; Canada. On Microsoft though I do agree with you, they don't have any offices in Markham that I know of, so not sure how they got listed. --Maelwys 17:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with Maelwys. Also, from my observation, they been slowly moving their day-to-day operations to their new location near Woodbine and Hwy 7, which is even more north of steeles. Nat Tang talk to me! 13:40, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * haha...adding a comment one year later. :P Nat Tang talk to me! 13:41, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

ATI should be indicated as an AMD acquisition
To keep the paragraph about technology companies current, the section listing ATI should be amended to indicate it's recent acquisition by Austin, Texas CPU giant: AMD Corporation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.231.143.238 (talk) 23:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Under Transportation, Million Air is listed. In fact this company is only an FBO operating at Buttonville airport, albeit it is also owned by the same people who own the airport. FBOs only provide servicing to visiting aircraft such fuelling and hotel/catering arrangements. L-P Comire oCT 25/06 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.119.97.134 (talk) 12:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Neighbourhood of "Mongolia"
I found this in the list of neighbourhoods and communities: I've never heard of a Mongolia in Markham. So I highly doubt this is factual. xero 00:23, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Mongolia

Fair use rationale for Image:MarkhamLogo.gif
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Alicia Ross
"Alicia Ross, murder victim" was added as a notable person yesterday. I removed the comment this morning, because her murder does not make the unfortunate Ms.Ross notable. PKT (talk) 12:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I added her name to the list, although it wasn't quite the right place for it. Perhaps a "notable events in Markham's history" section would be more applicable.  It was a major story for a while.  Davemcarlson (talk) 11:08, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Ben Johnson from Markham
The article to Ben Johnson does not indicate anywhere that he's from Markham, hence I removed him from the list of notable people. If he actually is from Markham, its needs a citation. xero-7 (talk) 00:52, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps this will jog people's memory...I recall reading in the Economist and Sun in the early 1990s that he resided in Unionville. It's possible he did not stay long; Scarborough (as cited) is just the next "town" over. --- quanta (talk) 02:59, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think his connection to Markham, if any, is so minor it's not worth noting. PKT (talk) 12:34, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

"Sister" Cities
The list that's in the article this morning might be out of date and definitely needs refining. When you cross-check it against this site there appear to be updates needed.  PK T (alk)  11:43, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Markham may be one of the most affluent municipalities in Canada, but it is definitely not one of the most affluent in GTA
I would suggest the removal of the following setence in Demography Section "Markham is among the most affluent municipalities in Canada"

The reason is Markham is definitely not one of the most affluent municipalities in GTA. Based on Statistics Canada 2006 Census data, Markham ranks 8 among 13 GTA municipalities based on median household income. The ranking is

1. Oakville  $92,394

2. Vaughan  $86,616

3. Milton  $86,604

4. Pickering $84,595

5. Whitby  $84,219

6. Ajax  $81,940

7. Uxbridge  $80,455

8. Markham  $79,924

9. Richmond Hill  $78,976

10. Burlington  $74,969

11. Brampton  $72,402

12. Mississauga  $71,393

13. Oshawa  $61,514  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.75.48.150 (talk) 15:14, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Nickname
Where are the names within the info box coming from? I mean the "High-Tech Capital of Canada" I get, it's on most of the city's welcome signs (I wouldn't call it a colloquial nickname, but a manufactured one to market the town to the private sector), but the Greenest High-Tech Capital of Canada? I live next to those welcome signs and that hasn't been incorporated anywhere. I also can't find it referenced anywhere with a Google search... As for the Dragon City? What? I'll honestly attest to the fact that I've never heard this city referred to as such in either a colloquial fashion, or in a marketing fashion by the city's PR. The only thing Google pulls up is the record breaking attempts, but no actual reference of it as a nickname... Leventio (talk) 23:01, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Parks
Should there be information added about Markham's parks and is the name too vague, maybe Markham's Parks and Pathways? Tiffdmo14 (talk) 01:41, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Distances from other cities
There have been several competing edits to the lead paragraph recently regarding how far Markham is from other cities. First Toronto (somewhat logically), then Ottawa, and now Montreal. These data don't belong in the lead, IMO. They might fit in the Geography section, but there also ought to be a limit to what other cities are mentioned. I think today's addition of Montreal is overdoing it, and the editor who added it also got the direction wrong (Markham is not west of Montreal - maybe southwest). Opinions, please.  PK T (alk)  20:54, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
 * If readers want to know how far Markham is from other cities there is a link in the article to Google Maps. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:22, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Distance to closest major city is fairly standard for Canadian community article leads. It allows the reader to immediately get a general idea of where the community is in relation to a major city whose location is already widely known. As I said in my edit summary, Ottawa and Montreal are unnecessary and such detailed information can be reserved maybe for the Geograph section. An exception can be a community that is relatively equidistant to similarly sized or significant major cities. For example, Red Deer is essentially the midpoint between Calgary and Edmonton, while Lloydminster is near the midpoint between Edmonton and Saskatoon, which as a border city straddling two provinces, it is doubly important to note both Edmonton and Saskatoon. As the user with the first two reverts and then the IP responsible for the third revert are likely the same editor, that editor has violated WP:3RR and is edit-warring. That editor should now only be commenting here else will likely be blocked. Hwy43 (talk) 02:19, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Historical populations
You added a table of historical populations dating back to 1871, and cited this source. I must be missing it, but where is the historic population data at that source? Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 19:51, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

It's a mystery. So I have no idea. I will try find it. 173.34.141.115 (talk) 19:56, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Population data
With this edit you wrote that "Markham's population was estimated at 342,000 through The Region of York population census data monitoring in 2015 and over 353,000 under the city's estimate in 2016." You provided this source, entitled "Markham Economic Profile 2017", to support your edit. When referring to Markham, that source states "with a population of over 353,000". Where did you find in that source that this number is "the city's estimate in 2016"? Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 12:41, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Keep scrolling down the PDF file then you will see it. 173.34.141.115 (talk) 12:44, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I am not able to find it. Please provide the page number where "estimate", "353,000" and "2016" are found.  Thank you.  Magnolia677 (talk) 12:48, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Page 9 173.34.141.115 (talk) 13:12, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

City Issues citations
Hey Editors, I was wondering if we could get more citations in the Markham,_Ontario because I feel that this section is very opinionated. --Miraclemitch (talk) 04:14, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified 3 external links on Markham, Ontario. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110610013627/http://www.markham.ca/mpl/subjguides/HotTopics/Heritage_Week.asp to http://www.markham.ca/mpl/subjguides/HotTopics/Heritage_Week.asp
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110614155856/http://www.ourroots.ca/e/toc.aspx?id=12398 to http://www.ourroots.ca/e/toc.aspx?id=12398
 * changed to current URL: http://ourroots.ca/toc.aspx?id=12398&amp;qryID=3b7002e4-9e96-4390-9f5c-37df98653025


 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070304085428/http://www.sister-cities.org/icrc/directory/Americas/Canada to http://www.sister-cities.org/icrc/directory/Americas/Canada
 * changed to a different reference - the current version of the sister-cities site doesn't show a relationship between Markham and Wuhan, but this site does.

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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 16:44, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Should post secondary plan (Ryerson and Seneca) be deleted from this article??
Folks, I am dumbfounded. I added a paragraph about the planned campus and an other editor deleted every word. no need to cover cancelled plans.

Is this paragraph really not worthy of inclusion in the Wikipedia article?

In May 2015, York University announced plans to open a new campus in the Markham Centre area, in collaboration with Seneca College.[34][35] On 23 October 2018 however, the new Provincial government withdrew the funding for plans such as this. Markham Mayor Frank Scarpitti said he was deeply disappointed and added, "With this decision, York Region remains the only jurisdiction in North America with more than a million people that does not have a university".[36]

Your thoughts @WhisperToMe and @Leventio? ... since you have both recently contributed valuable content to this article.

I am also asking @Hwy43, from the Wiki Project Canadian Communities, to comment on this. It applies to other articles too, including Milton, Ontario and Brampton, Ontario. Peter K Burian (talk) 23:20, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I have commented at Talk:Milton, Ontario Magnolia677 (talk) 23:54, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I have similarly commented at the same location. Hwy43 (talk) 02:56, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Conclusion: See the discussion of this topic in the Talk section of Milton, Ontario, a town also affected by the cancellation of funding. There, it was agreed that a shorter paragraph about the post secondary topic should be added to both articles, including the one on Markham, Ontario.

Done. Milton's history with post-secondary education is captured. Beyond that, a more fulsome recap with other details can be appropriately presented at Wilfrid Laurier University#Planned Milton campus (which is out of date as of today and needs copyediting to fix current tense issues throughout). Hwy43 (talk) 02:44, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

I support the edit proposed by User:Hwy43. Magnolia677 (talk) 09:57, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I will add a similar paragraph to this article. Peter K Burian (talk) 13:13, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

I agree that a short mention of it is appropriate, and am comfortable with the text that's present now (although I did make a quick MOS:CAPS correction to it) — but we do need to be careful to address it in a neutral way. It's completely unnecessary, for example, for us to highlight Scarpitti's quote — it's quite context-deficient, because he's completely ignoring the fact that even without a university campus in York Region itself, York Region is so close to so many other universities that a person who lives in York Region can still easily attend university without actually moving away from home. Sure, it would be entirely reasonable for one of the Toronto universities (or also UOIT if it ever opts to expand) to add a satellite campus in Markham or Vaughan — but not having its own university campus is not putting York Region in a "brain drain" situation the way it would if a more geographically isolated city or region of that size didn't have a university, because there are numerous universities no further away than the average employed York Region resident commutes every day for work — there are even some people in York Region who live so close to a university that they can walk to it without even needing a car or a bus pass, because all they have to do is walk across Steeles. So there's no value in highlighting his quote as a key aspect of how we write about this, because it's basically just political posturing. Bearcat (talk) 17:48, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I am satisfied with the content as it stands without a quote.
 * Thanks for your involvement, Bearcat Cheers, Peter K Burian (talk) 17:54, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): VivianFang. Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 03:27, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 16 February 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. Rough consensus that the city in Ontario is not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the term "Markham". (non-admin closure) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:27, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

– Per WP:CANPLACE, and WP:PT1. This is evidenced by and. ---  Tbf69   P &bull;&#32;T 12:55, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Markham, Ontario → Markham
 * Markham → Markham (disambiguation)
 * Oppose. There are 43 bulleted entries listed upon the Markham disambiguation page, with no indication that the renown of Canada's 16th-largest city, population 338,503, is at such an elevated level that it dwarfs the combined notability of the remaining 42 entries. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 18:01, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Check out and .  ---   Tbf69   P &bull;&#32;T 18:35, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Far too many Markhams on the disambiguation page.  Numbers mean nothing in this context. Most pageviews are likely merely local residents checking up info on a local town. Those numbers reflect nothing other than plenty of people happen to live there. With all due respect, the town is not notable outside Ontario. e.g. Markham, Illinois, beats it on Google search. And then there are the myriad of other uses for Markham in other parts of the world.  This town is not the primary topic. e.g. for me, "Markham" is always the great geographer Clements R. Markham. Walrasiad (talk) 05:53, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * WikiNav for Markham says there were 134 outgoing clicks to the Ontario city out of 310 total incoming ones, which is ~43% and does not demonstrate a primary topic by usage. I'm not sure which part of that page led you to believe otherwise, are we seeing different statistics? Also, the overall statistics at links from the disambiguation set index show that city to be very popular, but all the entries behind the surname set index are also relevant here (because it's very common for surnames to be used mononymously and they're very plausible search terms), and Monte Markham actually got more views on average than the city, and there were similarly popular entries like Beryl Markham, Kika Markham and others. I don't quite see the benefit of short-circuiting navigation to just a single popular topic. Oppose --Joy (talk) 08:53, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support. Looking at the neighbouring municipality of Vaughan, it appears it has the same criticisms above, but the name is simply Vaughan with the dismab link. For consistency I support Markham being the name of the article, and also how it is overwhelmingly the most common thing searched for when typing in "Markham" in wikipedia as per links above. Mattximus (talk) 20:23, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I would rather say that two wrongs don't make a right, and that Vaughan should be moved away as well from there, because it's unlikely that the average reader associates that term primarily with a specific city. Vince Vaughan, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Vaughan Williams, and a number of other people are substantially more common uses for Vaughan compared to the city. --Joy (talk) 08:51, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * While we're at it, I filed Talk:Vaughan. --Joy (talk) 09:25, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose for the reasons already given above by Walrasiad et al. ╠╣uw [ talk ] 12:14, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Also in regards to Vaughan, that one does seem surprising and non-optimal, and would probably be better aligned with the form of this article's title. (Per WP:TITLECON, good titles are "consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles".) ╠╣uw [ talk ] 12:29, 19 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Weak oppose some of the uses in the "Biology" section may have enough long-term significance to prevent this one from being primary.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 17:27, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support. I agree with those who argue that, in comparison to Vaughan, there are several more topics that use the name (per Markham (disambiguation)), but to be sure, each situation must be judged differently from each other.  But the city above Toronto appears to be the strong WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the word. If the move is approved, the resulting article for the city would require a hatnote to refer to the dab page.  PK  T (alk)  22:25, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. No primary topic here. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:12, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Sock puppets and the King of Markham
Just for everyone's awareness, there was a sockpuppet investigation Sockpuppet investigations/HH Crown Prince Wayne of Markham, where someone kept adding things about Markham having its own royal family as well as York Region. Please revert if you see it and report it. If it keeps happening we may need to protect the page. WizardGamer775 (talk) 12:30, 21 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Also add vandalism warnings to their talk page. See WP:WARNVAND, and in this case (because we know they're persistent) start at level 3 or 4 warnings.  The goal is to get the sockpuppet blocked.   PK  T (alk)  12:55, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I requested protection for this page again, seems like the royal-family obsessed person is back in full force. WizardGamer775 (talk) 23:51, 5 April 2024 (UTC)