Talk:Markos Botsaris/Archive 1

Albanian
Arvanitika is a linguistic term deliberately ill-defined as belonging to those populations that spoke a language, ascended primarily from Latin and secondly Greek. In fact Arvanitika is simply the Albanian language in the Tosk dialect spoken today in the south of Albania. Any Albanian from the south or the north of Albania can easily understand Arvanitika. Arvanites are Albanians now completely assimilated into Greeks mostly forcibly in order to artificially keep together the country called Greece today that in the 1900s was a multinational country with multiple languages spoken and multiple religions followed. Today, some Arvanites naturally consider themselves Greeks and they know nothing about their former Albanian heritage after centuries of living in Greece and after repressive ethnic policies of the Greek State against Arvanites.


 * Actually, Alex, Arvanitika is simply an Albanian language despite its huge number of loanwords. I personally don't know if it has the huge amount of Latin/Balkan Romance ones that the other varieties of Albanian do (I believe the biggest part of their lexicon comes from Romance), but indeed Arvanitika acquired a lot of Greek ones (some texts that record speeches made in Arvanitika in the early 19th century are half-Greek lexically, just about). 3rdAlcove (talk) 06:03, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * With all due respect, he fought for Ali Pasha as well and Ali Pasha fought the Sultan as well so "he fought against Albanians" doesnt; make him Greek. Mark Bocari is his name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake (talk • contribs) 03:24, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

First of all, arvantika is a language spoken before albanian. Secondly, an amalgam of languages older than albanian, such as greek and latin and most of all wider than albanian cannot be considered albanian. About Botsaris. He was a Souliot, and the greek origin of Souliots is granted from Lord Byron himself who lived among them and made troops of them. Also, in a letter written in greek to Catherine the Great of Russia they were considering themselves Greeks, despite they spoke arvanitika too. Keep it Fake referred to Ali Pasha, whose Albanian commanders were taxed by the Souliots and that was Ali's main problem.

And at last, you simply cannot consider somebody Albanian when he fought at will, against Albanians in a National Independence war. Also i did not erase the phrase about Botsaris origins from Scanderbeg, because it might be. How are you sure of that? As far as history says Skadenberg himself had his titles from Byzantine origins. His father was Greek and his mother Serbian. He is Albania's National Hero, simply because Albanians also descend their origins of him. PS: Lord Byron. Byron comes from the Greek name Βύρων. Was lord Byron Greek because of that? -I do not think so... Alex Gerakis, 6:45 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * "First of all, arvantika is a language spoken before albanian."

Duh! The modern Albanian was set much later and borrowed from each dialect, but that doesn't mean Arvanitika isn't Albanian. We can still understand Arbereshe and Arvanitika.


 * "His father was Greek and his mother Serbian."

You're a funny guy. Are you mad because Greeks didn't fight the Turks? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake (talk • contribs) 02:00, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


 * "And at last, you simply cannot consider somebody Albanian when he fought at will, against Albanians in a National Independence war"

What Albanians? Did you know that Greeks supported Turks too...in that war? You need to read, read and read books other than what your church hands you.

You just made o completely POV adittion to the subject, also considering every person that has a deal with this, as "church book readers". In fact, you have no objective argument to mention in all that, than high-sky-hanged accusations and personal points as far as conclusions. And this is something i am mentioning on you contributing in these subjects. Above all, you do not even make a try to overwhelm it. Alex Gerakis, 4:43 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Boçari fought for the Greek state independence during Greek nationalism awakening. While there were Albanians fighting on each side, he too was an Albanian speaker that even created the Albanian-Greek dictionary. One may try to downplay that but it is a well documented fact. It is also a well known fact that the Arvanite language is simply a dialect of Albanian written in the Greek alphabet well documented by Robert Elsie and more. This article should mention his Albanian-Arvanite identity right next to his name. See p.225 of The Tribes of Albania by Robert Elsie that is more than sufficient evidence of his Albanian identity. We do not need to hide the fact that part of todays Greek ethnos is composed of Albanian Arvanites and migrants from Asia Minor. Do not confuse Ethnicity with Nationalism. Boçari was an Ethnic Albanian yet indeed also a Greek national. This is something the whole world knows and it doesn't make him any less of a hero to the Greek state. I motion that we include "Albanian" and will do so upon no reasonable objection. Cheers!! JoeTBA (talk) 15:26, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

When will you accept history beyond nationalism? The greek wars of liberation were led mostly by Arbanites (southern Albanians), this is documented beyond any doubt. The greek state was founded on nationalism and ethnocentrism and this hasn't changed ever since..trasforming one nationality into another by simply wading the magic wond. Just pitiful!!! Etimo (talk) 10:38, 26 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Your communist turkalbanian fantasies would be hilarious if they were not pathetic. The fact that the artificial 'albanian nation' did not exist before 1912 obviously escapes you. At least the Arvanites can see through your pathetic propapanda.

WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008
Article reassessed and graded as start class. --dashiellx (talk) 11:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC) Keep it Fake (talk) 02:03, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

The Cham thing
I have reverted the Cham template from the arcticle because it seems at least grotesque for Botsaris, a prominent member of the Greek War of Independece to be qualifed alongside Aristidh Ruci, Ali Demi, Kristo Meksi, etc. I do not think that there is any serious source that disputes his Greek consciousness. Being a Souliotis, he was bilingual coming from a group of people, that of whatever origin, where incorporated into Greek nation by will. It's simple logic and I honestly can not understand why this template was introduced anyway, is as absurd as placing a She was German template next to Queen Victoria's article. Kapnisma (talk) 23:09, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Please, there was a long, (when I say long, I mean too long) discussion on Talk:Souliotes about this issue. Brittanica is a tertiary source, as per WP:RS, it may be there, only if secondary sources exist. Also, there are sources about the Cham thing, and you should not revert them. By the way, Aristidh Ruci, Ali Demi and Kristo Meksi, are just some of them, other being, Markos Botsaris et al :-). The Macedonian page you showed was too serious and thus should be included in this page. But, the Cham thing, is sourced, and thus it has place in here.Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:02, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Look, my intetion is not to start edit wars or verbal quarrels, but try to follow my logic, Botsaris, of whatever origin was identified with the Greek cause being a prominent member of the War of Indepedence, don't forget that contemporary people considered him Greek, just check the poems written for him and furthermore I do not think that there are sources saing he was Cham Albanian. To qualify his as Cham Albanian is just absurd...

Apart from the above if we follow your logic then, as I wrote above, Queen Victoria was not English but German, Napoleon not French but Corsican, Chester W. Nimitz also German, etc If you disagree then we have to invite a third person to avoid meaningless reverts and edit wars. Kapnisma (talk) 11:54, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The point is that the sources (and I mean WP:RS, look at the Souliotes talk page) consider him as a Souliot. Now whatever the contemporary people may consider a person (although the majority of that time still consider him like a Souliot), it does not mean that this person is like that. Imagine the people consider someone like son of a Good (case of Alexander the Greata) or like a God disciple or Mesia, it doesn't mean that it should be like that. That's why WP:RS, is used throughout Wikipedia, otherwise it should have been called Gossipedia. May I advise you to look at WP:RS first, then bring and discuss sources to the talk page as a second step (especially for the pages which have a consensual version) and then propably in the end to make the changes to the main page? Aigest (talk) 12:43, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Read again carefully, what I have written above, before reproducing something over and over. So repeating myself once more, Markos Botsaris, as he is known and listed to all sources, (and not as Marko Boçari) as a prominent member of the Greek War of Independece who had linked his actions and finally his life with the Greek cause was by definition Greek, as Napoleon was French although of Corsican origin, Catherine II of Russia Russian, even of German, etc, etc, etc. It's so simple, of course the fact that he originated from a hellenized albanian speaking community should and must be noted, but not as him belonging to Cham Albanian, Chams were, are and will be forever linked with Albanians beacause they never expressed a different consciousness, on the contrary Botsaris, Tzavelas and the Souliotes, regardless of origin became integrated into the Greek nation, is it so difficult to understand it, or you don't want to understand it? And I can't understand why are you insisting on it by placing his name in Albanian or by the Cham template, do you see any German editor going to Catherine's article messing it up, adding her German name next to her Russian and placing a she was German template? Kapnisma (talk) 15:13, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * That what we are talking about: "An ethnically Albanian community which became integrated into the Greek nation", and as it is an ethnically Albanian community, it belonged to a branch of those Albanians, which is called Chams. You say your self that he became integrated into the Greek nation, but you do not agree that he was An ethnically Albanian who became integrated into the Greek nation. As too many editors, you just try to put only one part of the wiki-truth in the page, and leave every other parts. That is not what wiki is about.Balkanian`s word (talk) 15:45, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * You contradict yourself, how someone who feels and acts as Greek, regardless of origin is not a Greek? As the perfect examples of Catherine II of Russia, Napoleon, Chester W. Nimitz, Queen Victoria and many, many other are proving the one who is trying to pass an agenta is not me... :) And since you like wiki rules, it's called WP:COMMON Kapnisma (talk) 15:52, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * By the way, common sense, means common sense, you cannot wait for people to agree with your sense, by saying that this is a common sense, since others have their sense.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:37, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * On your logic, Lord Byron, who fought for the Greek cause, (precisely as Markos Botsaris, to be more acquarite was the leader of the Souliot forces, when Botsaris died, and who by the way says that Suliotes were Albanians), is a Greek? But, can you source it? I can source that Souliotes were Albanians, can you source the opposite? Is this just another say-so, if yes, stop it, if no, give Reliable sources in this talk page.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:22, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Ήμαρτον!!!! I am afraid you do not want to understand, let's wait for an admin... Kapnisma (talk) 16:28, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Ήμαρτον!!!! Your argument was that they were called Greeks by others at that time, now that I proved to you that Byron, a personal friend of him, calls Souliotes, Albanians, you just do not like it.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:31, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

PS: But I can not resist just telling you this, how on earth can you misrepresent what I say about Botsaris by the Lord Byron's poor example? Did he come from a hellenized population? MY GOD,HE WAS BRITISH!!!!!!!!! NOT SOULIOTIS... And since you like wiki rules, check How many legs does a horse have?Kapnisma (talk) 16:38, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * You seem not to get it. It is clearly unsure when this population became hellenized. The major possibility is that they were hellenized after the Greek War of Independence, as till then they spoke Albanian, were considered Albanians by others, were conscripted in the Albanian regiment of the French army, etc etc etc.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * You said: "don't forget that contemporary people considered him Greek" in your second comment. Do you always forget what you write, or only occasionally, otan se sinferi?Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:43, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Παντα προσπαθω να τους εχω κατα νου, αντιθετα απο εσενα που εχεις μαθει μονο εναν και τον επαναλαμβανεις :)

Oh, check this it's Fitz-Greene Halleck, oh! also Henry Martyn Baird ...That Christians, armed in favour of the Koran against the disciples of the gospel, instruct and lead on the barbarous hordes which devastate the land of Cymon, Leonidas and Bozzaris...' oh! and Thomas Gordon ...Marco Bozzaris was a leader of the Greeks in the late revolutionary war: he was killed in the assault of a Turkish camp. oh! and Charles William Smith ...Marco Bozzaris was a hero of the Greek war for independence.; he gained fame for the defense of Missolonghi against the Turks and was killed in action in 1823... Kapnisma (talk) 16:57, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Pitfully, none of them speak about his ethnicity. They say either that "Marco Bozzaris was a hero of the Greek war for independence" (dah, really?) or that "Marco Bozzaris was a leader of the Greeks in the late revolutionary war", (oh, I thought he was the leader of Turks. Thanks for clarifying) on the other hand Lord Byron a friend of Botsaris say that they were Albanians. In every case Byron is not in the list, since he is a primary source.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:07, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh! There are interesting sources about Souliotes
 * ] by William Miller ...In Epirus, the Souliotes, an admirable blend of Greeks and Hellenized Albanians...
 * Helen Angelomatis-Tsougarakis ...The Souliotes, Christian Albanians who had intermixed with Greeks...
 * Christopher Montague Woodhouse The Souliotes, though Christian were not strickly Greek by race...


 * Thank you, that is exactly what I mean "The Souliotes, Christian Albanians who had intermixed with Greeks", "were not strickly Greek by race", ad by the way, do not give me general references on Souliotes, as we have discussed them too much on Talk:Souliotes, where we had this consensus, "ethnically Albanian community, which became integrated into the Greek nation", so you are not providing any new source. I provided Byron, because he was a friend of Botsaris, and talks about the Souliotes of the time when Botsaris lived, more precisly he talks about the Botsaris clan, which he leaded aftermath, not about Souliotes in general. But, neither Byron, nor the three of yours, and neither a bunch of others, do not fulfill WP:RS, as they are primary sources, pre-20 century books and written by non-historians.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:26, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I advise Kapnisma to try to understand the difference between a Hero of a revolution and Hero's ethnicity  may be this will help you [] or even [] I don't see there an american and a greek:) Aigest (talk) 19:27, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Albanian orthodox?
Really? the Albanian orthodox church was formed in the 20th century (1900-onwards)--85.72.87.202 (talk) 19:29, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Identity vs "blood"
Even if he was of Albanian origin, Botsaris clearly identified as a Greek, and considered himself as such. For me, that is what truly matters, not his "blood" or "genes". He is Greek he who identifies as Greek, he is Cham Albanian he who identifies as Cham Albanian. Botsaris certainly identified as the former, not the latter, and this trumps everything. This is the 21st century, not the 19th. Arguments based "blood" and the purity thereof have no place here. As far as the name, virtually all sources mention him as "Markos Botsaris", never "Marco Bocari", so I really don't see why we even need to mention the Albanian name, let alone before the Greek one. --Athenean (talk) 16:02, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Lord Byron, a personal friend of Botsaris, and the leader of Botsaris clan, when Markos died, wrote that Souliotes (i.e. Botsaris clan, who he knew) were Albanians. Find sources please for your POV.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:04, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * And since when do you consider Lord Byron a WP:RS anyway? Even then, he wrote his name as "Markos Botsaris" and clearly identified as a Greek.  You have no source to prove that he identified as a Cham (because he didn't).  --Athenean (talk) 16:08, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Is Byron, his friend who does. And ofcourse I do not consider Byron as a RS, and thus I have not included him in the article. But, it is a fact, that Botsaris friend says that Botsaris was Albanian. For RS, see Souliotes, where all of them are listed.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:10, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * So you use Lord Byron to support your argument, then go back and admit you don't consider him an RS. The debate on Souliotes is irrelevant, this is about a particular individual who clearly identified as a Greek, not a Cham.  Come back when you have a source proving he identified as a Cham, and stop pretending like you're not hearing what I'm saying.  Identity is what matters, not ethnic origin.  And by the way, you're already on 3RR, so watch it.  --Athenean (talk) 16:12, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Give me a RS that he identified as Greek.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:16, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Let's see, he identified as a Greek through his actions? Fighting for the Greek side, duh?  Nice try to shift the burden of proof onto me, but it really is on you this time.  --Athenean (talk) 16:25, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Athenean, your proof is just called WP:OR. Was Byron a Greek, because he fighted on the Greek side? And by the way, who is Makrogianis?Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:01, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

You asked me for a secondary RS about his ethnicity. Here you are: The Greek Struggle for Independence, 1821-1833: 1821-1833, By Douglas Dakin, Published by Batsford, 1973 "Omer Vrionis found himself harassed by the Souliots who were in firm possession of their native mountains on his flank. Needless to say, the benefits to be gained by aiding these sturdy Christian Albanians were obvious to the Greeks, above all to Mavrokordatos, the commander-in-chief in western Greece." Referring to his battle with Markos Botsaris.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:47, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Says nothing about Botsaris himself, or what he identified as.--Athenean (talk) 17:52, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * It says about Botsaris, because he speaks about the Botsaris troops during their battle, and as about his self-identification see Francois Pouqueville and Byron, Botsaris closist allies.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:56, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * That sounds like a bunch of OR nonsense, sorry. --Athenean (talk) 18:15, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Which sounds OR. He speaks about Botsaris clan. Isn`t Botsaris, part of Botsaris clan? WP:LEGSBalkanian`s word (talk) 18:20, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * He does? Where?  It mentions neither the Botsaris clan nor does he tell us what Botsaris himself identified as.  In fact, the word "Botsaris" doesn't appear at all in what you quote.  --Athenean (talk) 18:23, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

The next two sentences are: "Taking with him a corps of one hundred philhellenes under the command of Colonels Dania and Chevalier, a six-hundred strong Greek regiment of regulars (first formed by Dimitrios Ipsilantis) under the command of Colonel Tarella, a corps of Ionian Greeks under Panas and a band of Souliots under Markos Botsaris, he left Korinthos and repaired to Mesolonghi."

So he clearly speaks about the Souliots of Markos Botsaris, who were sturdy Christian Albanians. This means that the proccess of hellenization had not started on that time.fullstop.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:59, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Total OR and on the face of it, nonsensical. If the process of Hellenization hadn't started, how come he spoke Greek and fought for the Greeks?  LOL.  Besides, this passage is about battles, not about who identified as what.  It's completely irrelevant to this discussion.  --Athenean (talk) 19:08, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * How did Fan Noli, Ismail Qemali, and a bunch of Albanians spoke Greek, without any kind of hellenization? And how did Lord Byron fight for Greece, when there he was not under a hellenization process? You are OR-ing my friend. I am bringing sources. THe author (secondary reliable source) say that he was an albanian.Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:14, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Terrible example, the two individuals you mention were Albanian nationalists, whereas Botsaris fought and died for the Greek cause. I don't know how it can more obvious.  Why would anyone who does not identify as Greek risk his life to fight for their cause?  The only other people who did so were Western Philhellenes like Byron, but Botsaris clearly does not fall under this category.  The source you brought does says nothing about whether Botsaris identified as a Greek or as a Cham and as such is irrelvant, merely that he took part in some battle.  It is you who is ORing and SYNTHesizing.  --Athenean (talk) 19:49, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

About Qemali some Frasheri's, they attended Zosimaia School in Ioannina, a really good choice to learn Greek.Alexikoua (talk) 12:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC)


 * What about Fan Noli, who had not attended a Greek school. But by the way, read this GHM report which says that Markos Botsaris "spoke as much Greek as the Ottoman rulers did". Nay.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:25, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Let me explain to you this way. I say that Botsaris had as mother tangue the Cham Albanian dialect, had Albania customs and traditions , was refered as Albanian by his ally, friend and succesor, Byron and by his mentor during his activity on the Albanian (of course) regiment of the French Army, Francois Pouqueville , is regarded as an Orthodox Albanian by modern Reliable Sources, was not accepted as Greek by other Greeks, as long as the 20th century and we have no single testimony of what he declared accept of what his friends (Byron, Pouqueville, et.al.) have said. And you say "The only other people who did so were Western Philhellenes like Byron, but Botsaris clearly does not fall under this category". You have some fact gaps to fill my friend, cause my statements are totally referenced.

Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:01, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Sock note
Note that the 71.* and 96.* IPs (Verizon IP from New Jersey) are block-evading and can be rolled back and/or ignored. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:37, 28 March 2009 (UTC)


 * ??? 71.172.189.73 (talk) 21:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't play dumb, Deuc., we know it's you. And stop hopping to new IPs, or we'll have to do a range block. You are blocked. If you want to be unblocked, post an unblock request on your talk page. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:58, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

"Orthodox Albanian leader of the Souliotes"
This is needless, redundant, and provocative, as it goes directly against the compromise I implemented earlier to leave as "leader of the Souliotes" plain and simple. I proposed this compromise to end the edit-warring on this page, User:Balkanian`s word agreed to it here, yet here he comes a few days later, hiding behind WP:RS to push his well-known agenda. We really don't need this sort of thing here. The ethnicity and origin of the Souliotes is discussed in the appropriate page, and we can leave it at that. "leader of the Souliotes" is more than good enough for this page, and "albanian leader of the Souliotes" is redundant and confusing to the reader. Does this mean the Souliotes were non-Albanians who happened to have an Albanian leader? For the sake of simplicity and clarity, I am going to remove it. --Athenean (talk) 19:34, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I would like to ask, what is wrong with "leader of the Souliotes"? Changing that to "Orthodox Albanian leader of the Souliotes" is a clear and unmistakable attempt to promote Botsaris' "Albanian-ness", and as such is brazen POV-pushing (in addition to my observation of redundancy above). What's next, "an Orthodox Albanian leader of the Souliotes, who were a warlike ethnically Albanian community that became assimiliated into the Greek nation"? How many times do we have to say that he was Albanian, Albanian, and by the way, Albanian? This is clear POV-pushing and I will have none of it. --Athenean (talk) 19:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Because, Souliotes were a community and so they were ethnically Albanians who became hellenized. But, individuals cannot be ethnically something which became something else. Assimilation is a process and it can be used only on long periods (16th to 19th century), but individuals are either Greeks or Albanians, either Hellenized Albanians, or Phillellens, cannot be both.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:09, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Nonsense, and completely off-topic. This is just a straightforward case of ethnic boosterism.  --Athenean (talk) 20:14, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Whats nonsense? It is just Manual of Style (biographies)Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:21, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Says nothing about ethnicity. You are just randomly citing wikipedia rules so as to be able to hide behind them.  It is very obvious what you are trying to do here.  "Abanian leader of the Souliotes" is redundant, confusing, and a naked attempt at ethnic boosterism.  I proposed a compromise [], you accepted it [], then, as soon as the edit-warring was over, you hide behind WP:RS to push your usual Albanian agenda.  WP:RS is irrelevant here, so hiding behind it won't do you any good.  The only mutually acceptable, and neutral opening is "leader of the Souliotes", pure and simple.--Athenean (talk) 21:06, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * 1) I accepted it as a provisional agreement, till a debate. The debate showed that you had no arguments. 2) That was about what SOuliotes were, and not on what Botsaris was. 3)WP:RS has to do with this because "Wikipedia articles[1] should rely primarily on reliable, third-party, published sources"Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:10, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * No it doesn't, because you are just manipulating it for the purposes of ethnic boosterism.--Athenean (talk) 21:13, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Find sources on Botsaris and stop OR-ing.Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:15, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * OR-ing? I am citing wikipedia policy.  Per WP:MOS, ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.  Botsaris was certainly not notable for his "ethnicity", but for the fact that he was one of the leaders of the Greek War of Independence.  I also really like how you tried to cite WP:MOS to justify your edits, but it turns out your are totally against it.  Thus, your edits clearly constitute ethnic boosterism and per WP:MOS, I will undo them.  --Athenean (talk) 21:18, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

That painting
This painting is weird. It's said to be painted in 1874, and shows apparently an old man, sitting slouched in an armchair, in a wealthy urban home. Hardly the kind of portrait you'd expect to find of a person who spent his life fighting in the mountains and died in battle at age 35. Who is this? Are we certain it is supposed to be "our" Markos Botsaris? (Or perhaps a descendent of his who lived in the painter's own days?) Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:16, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, seems really dubious. I say we remove it.  --Athenean (talk) 18:05, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree. It seems to be an amartolos, or a klepht, but age does not conclude that it is Botsaris.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:18, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, to be sure, there are multiple competent websites out there confirming that "Markos Botsaris" is the conventional title of this painting. But it would be nice if we knew more about what/whom the painter meant. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:24, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

It is supposed to be Botsaris Kapnisma (talk) 16:29, 2 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Gerome was in Turkey 1855,1871,1879, Algier 1873, Egypt 1856,1861,1868,1869, Palestine 1868, Greece (perhaps) in 1881. While in the time of Marcos Botsaris picture 1874 he was in Holland. His pictures are based on the characters he met in Middle East so if you see this you can see that he is using a typical Middle East dress in Marcos Botsaris picture. So you have an old man in Middle east dress, in the background you can see oriental design on the walls and under his feet a carpet of a talish design and with a nargile which I highly doubt has been used (at least regularly:)) by Botsaris. Anyway he was not in Greece up to 1881 (if he really made that jorney then) or in Albania (although many of his works represent Albanian soldiers in Egypt and fustanella was known to him ). It is an abstrakt picture representing a hero dressed like a turkish pasha  and I think is misleading to keep that picture (although nice colors;). Aigest (talk) 07:32, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Thats true, the painter Jean Leo Gerome is born 1824 but Botsaris die 1823 and the picture is paintet 50 years later. Jean Leo Gerome never was met M.Botsaris.--84.75.20.66 (talk) 09:51, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Half-truth
The lead represents half the reality. I will not deny his Albanian origins, but the facts remain: So, just saying that "He was born into one of the leading clans of the Greek-Orthodox Albanian community" bla bla bla hides half the reality. Either scrap from the lead this useless section and put it in the "History" section; either add the magic word hellenized: "he was born into one of the leading hellenized clans", which is accurate.--Yannismarou (talk) 07:56, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) His clan was finally hellenized.
 * 2) He fought for the Greek War of Independence.
 * 3) His family were Greek citizens, and prominent members of the Greek society and establishment.


 * There is an extensive discussion for this, in here and in Talk:Souliotes. You may read it, but I will sum up: "We do not know when Souliotes were Hellenized". Your first and last arguments are for Souliotes in general, not about a single person. This is the page about Markos Botsaris, not about his clan, his family, or his neighbors. Your second argument is already in the first sentence.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:19, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, but we know that they did. So, what is your problem adding it? Do you propose to hide the truth, because we do not know the exact day. And I do not want to participate in the discussion you say. I want to discuss here about Botsaris.--Yannismarou (talk) 18:11, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I was not clear. There is a section in this page, which is about sources that have to do only with Botsaris or the Botsaris clan, in order to maintain a clear view, if they were Hellenized at the time of Botsaris, or they were still Albanians, or they were in the process of Hellenization. There are only three secondary RS about Botsaris and Botsaris clan and all three say about Albanians, so if there is a source that is not presented in this page, please add it, and than lets discuss about rewording the lead.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:23, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I will see the section, but my point still stands: The lead (even in a small article like this) should reflect the article's content, and give a comprehensive summary of the topic. Reading the lead, I get the impression that I have to do with an Albanian who happened to fight in the Greek War of Independence, and who happened to be orthodox. Well, this is not accurate by common sense; it is not a matter of sources. Anyway, I'll comment further on on the relevant section.--Yannismarou (talk) 18:30, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * You are absolutely right, yanni. At the very least, it should mention your point#1 and #3.  At the very least.--Athenean (talk) 22:34, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Your last edit of the lead is acceptable by me:
 * It mentions that he was of Albanian origin ("ethnic Albanian" is again too strong for me, but for the shake of calm and compromise let's say ok)
 * It mentions that his clan was also of Albanian origin, but it was hellenized (at some point, which we do not have to define; by the way, I was at school with one of his clan's descendants, and believe me they are indeed completely hellenized!)
 * It mentions that he fought in the Greek War of Independence, and he is regarded by all Greeks as a hero.
 * Now, if Balkan World again disagrees with this compromise, I have another proposal: Remove any reference to ethnicity, clans etc. from the lead. In the lead just mention that his was one of the Souliotes, and he plaued a prominent role in the Greek War of Independence, and then elaborate on his origins and his clan in the main article.--Yannismarou (talk) 16:01, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * This what I've been proposing all along, and per WP:MOS, ethnicity should not be mentioned in the lead anyway, unless it is directly related to the subject's notability. Clearly, ethnicity is not why Botsaris is notable, but the fact that he was one of the leaders of the war of independence.  --Athenean (talk) 17:53, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think nationality in this case is linked to the subject because even the majority if Greeks have no idea of Markos origin. For them it's just a Greek hero and that's all (not mentioning other possible readers). But the point is that wiki is like an encyclopedia style, you should wait more information than just a short sentence of known facts. In this case is iluminating for every really interested reader without the nationalist firewall in his head, to learn as much as wiki contributers can offer to him. So I think that this is a valuable information and should stand. Moreover in Albania Marko Boçari is regarded as a great Albanian figure and I think that leaving aside this kind of nationalistic POV it is better for the article to mention his albanian origin and his role in Greek revolution. In this way we are not leaving aside facts, we are not inventing something and this article is more balanced. Aigest (talk) 21:05, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Aigest, you will not leave them aside by mentioning nationality-related issues in the main body of the article. I also did not know his real origins, before learning about the edit war here! I am happy I did! I am half-Epirote and for all Epirotes Botsaris is an emblematic figure. Anyway, if you insist mentioning nationality-related issues in the lead I think that the current version is ok. I am also happy that in Albania Botsaris is regarded as a great figure, but I also know that he fought with the Greeks, and even his heroic death was a sacrifice for Greece (for freedom in general, but for Greek freedom in particular). He was born as an Albanian, but he lived as a Greek! In any case, Aigest, ethnicity in the 18s and 19s was a really complicated issue. Have in mind, that during the Ottoman rule Albanian language was often predominant in Western Greece even among Greek populations. The main distinctive element was not language but religion. An Albanian-speaking Epirote could well feel Greek, especially if he was Greek-Orthodox. And that is why I said that scientifically and encyclopedically it is not the wisest thing to make declarations about ethnicity (and also about religion) in the article's lead.--Yannismarou (talk) 21:55, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I know things may get a little confuse because the ethnicity perception of a person may be not the same during his lifetime. One good example of that are the emigrants which try to be part of the new culture etc, or other example the jews in Germany which no longer considered themselves Germans after WW2 war although before the war they were declared as such and so on you can find many examples. The other problem derives from what we now on 21 century define as ethnicity, which is also different from what peoples of XX century perceived, which was also in turn different from what peoples of XIX century perceived, which was also in turn different from what peoples of XVIII century perceived and you can continue like that up to Adam and Eve. At that time of the history end of XVIII and begining of XIX there were no clear definitions of Albanian and Greeks in the same term that we see them today. But for all the other peoples outside these communities (foreign visitors, diplomats, etc) seemed to be clear that they were different ethnies. They have mentioned this fact in every article related to that region of the Balkan. They differentitate Albanians form Greeks at that time (just google youreself Albanians in Greece in books.google to see all the authors of that time and the great role of the albanians in the Greek revolution, I would recomend Finlay which is a great author of that time). So if all these sources have mentioned them as two distinct ethnic groups, for sure should have been a very good reason. Returning to Botsaris and Souliotes the sources have spoken clearly. They were perceived as Albanians on that time (see sources above) and by the serious authors they continue up to these days to be perceived as such (see Souliotes talk page). So we are not inventing something here (unless we are going to make a psychological profile of Botsaris 200 years later). You have accepted by yourself that you didn't know the fact of Botsaris origin up to the edit war here (don't you see something weird that the Greeks don't know, or were not told in history books the origin of the Hero of the Greek revolution?!). Now, do you think is iluminating for the readers of the article and for the sake of Botsaris himself to mention his origin?? I think it is. Aigest (talk) 09:08, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Let put the facts straight. (1)Souliotes were Albanians, (2) Souliotes became hellenized, (3) Markos Botsaris was a Souliote.

Saying that Markos Botsaris was born in a Hellenized Albanian clan, means that in the time that Botsaris was born (late 18th century) this clan was indeed hellenized, otherwise it is a SYNTH.

But, at they time they were not Hellenized (see ).

For Demetrios Botsaris, Makros son, you may create an article stating that he was Hellenized, but for Markos, you have to find sources that he was Hellenized. The secondary RS we have do not support your viewpoint, so as there is no new source about Markos, or his clan, it should remain as it was before the last edit.Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:08, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * All this is childish. The solution is simple: In the lead just say that he was a Souliote and he fought in the Greek War of Independence, and make no reference to ethnicity. Then, in the main article, in the beginning of his biography put all the the info you want about his origins: that he was of Albanian origin, that he was Greek-Orthodox, that he was a Souliote, an Albanian clan, which at some point was hellenized. I do not intend to edit-war here.--Yannismarou (talk) 08:45, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Now, if you follow your rationale and your insistance on mentioning ethnicity in the way you want, let's see how we'll end:
 * If we take what Miller says, it is inaccurate what you say that the Souliotes were Albanian. No! They were a mix of Hellenized Albanians and Greeks. Therefore, according to this source: During the Ottoman Empire'r rule, a part of the Souliotes had already been hellenized, and the rest of them were of Greek origin! A bit inconsistent with what you argue until now.
 * According to Katherine Elizabeth Fleming, the Souliotes are of Albanian origin (Be careful! She does not say they were ethnic Albanians!), but "usually are grouped separately". Meaning? Obviously that they are not grouped with the rest of Albanians! And she also says, page 99, note 18, that the Souliotes were a "Greek-speaking" Orthodox tribe of "Albanian origin" (again not "Ethnic Albanians"). Do you say in the lead that they were Greek-speaking? No?! So, again the lead is inaccurate. Change it accordingly!
 * According to Tsoungarakis, page 113–114 the Souliotes were already hellenized by 1821, and he agrees with Miller that they were not just Albanians, but "christian Albanians who had intermixed with Greeks". Tsoungarakis is probably Greek, but he provides a thorough analysis, don't you think?--Yannismarou (talk) 08:45, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Now, continuing this nonsentic discussion, I have to stress that the current phrasing of the lead is inconsistent with all the above sources. I remind you that the current lead is as follows:


 * "He was born into one of the leading clans of the Souliotes, a Hellenized, Greek-Orthodox, ethnically Albanian in Epirus."

Unfortunately for you, the three above sources give us three different wording all of them inconsistent with the current one (and of course with the previous one of yours, which did not even mention the hellenization). More specifically:

Following Miller, the lead should be phrased as follows:
 * Option 1 per source 1
 * "He was born into one of the leading clans of the Souliotes, a Greek-Orthodox community, ethnically a mix of Hellenized Albanians and Greeks in Epirus."

Following Fleming, the lead should be phrased as follows:
 * Option 2 per source 2
 * "He was born into one of the leading clans of the Souliotes, a Greek-Orthodox, Greek-speaking community of Albanian origin in Epirus."


 * Option 3 per source 3
 * "He was born into one of the leading clans of the Souliotes, a Hellenized, Greek-Orthodox community in Epirus, ethnically christian Albanians who had intermixed with Greeks.

Do you want me to continue?!--Yannismarou (talk) 08:57, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Which of the above speaks about Markos Botsaris? Do not confuse the wording on this page, with the wording on SOuliotes page. You have my arguments in there. In *here* bring sources about Markos Botsaris or his clan, not about Souliotes in general. You are OR-ing: How do you know that Miller refers to Markos Botsaris as his second option (Greeks), or his first option? How do you know that Fleming is refering to Markos Botsaris as the one who was hellenized and not the father of the one who was hellenized. How do you know that Tsoungarakis referes to Botsaris as Greek, and not as Christian Albanian? You just dont know because none of them is speaking about Botsaris or his clan, but about Souliotes in general. As for Souliotes in general, you have my answer in Talk:Souliotes.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:31, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Balkan, your answer constitutes a sophism! If the Souliotes as a community were hellenized, then his particular clan was hellenized as well. When? Sometime, between the 16th and the 19th century! Isn't this satisfactory as an answer! Well, it is your insistance on ethnicity which leads to such uncyclopedic results. But, since you insist, I'll add two sources, asserting that Souliotes (therefore Botsaris' clan as well!) were hellenized by the early 19s.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:19, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I am sorry to say that you all are wrong! According to this and this, Botsaris was actually Marko Bochvaro, an "ethnic Macedonian" hero from Vodena... So please remove all the natio0nalist Albanian and Greek propaganda! Constantine  ✍  17:41, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Jheeez, the Greek users on here sure are fast to come together. As an outsider however, I think that the sheer fact that we are having this debate seems to suggest that it is indeed pertinent to the article to mention this persons ethnicity. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 00:09, 16 June 2009 (UTC)).

I agree with Yanissmarou proposals. Hope some users will thing more encycopedically on that topic.Alexikoua (talk) 09:34, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Marko Bocari spoke Albanian...be it a dialect of albanian...still albanian and is a fact because he composed the greek-albanian dictionary. he was not hellenised because a hellenized person in my view should speak greek as mother tounge. The fact that greek was the laguage of the orthodox liturgy made Albanians learn greek, the same like the northwest europians used latin in ther church procidings.

the fact is that albanians fought on religious grounds and so the albanian christians suported the greek effort and the muslim albanians suported the empire...you had albanians against albanians...byron writes on the issue. might as well see him as french given the fact of his services to the french.you are all bonkers..honestly! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Besnikalushi (talk • contribs) 22:05, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

New sources?
No as I see, so no removal of referenced edits. Aigest (talk) 09:14, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm curious what kind of explanation will you give this time, about your -true Albanian- theory.Alexikoua (talk) 09:36, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

You editing is astonishing, I thought this article was for Botsaris not Souliotes. Apparently I am wrong. Aigest (talk) 10:13, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

It is ok for me if you want an explanation of the Souliotes in the lead. Just copy-paste you know. Aigest (talk) 10:18, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I have provided detailed descriptions about the origins. Suppose u have to find too about the 'only Albanian' origins, in order to propose adjustments. Souliotes? were Botsaris not a Souliot?Alexikoua (talk) 10:25, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

If you want to change the definition of Souliotes you should make it in the relevant article then change it here eventually. Until then the definition of Souliotes stands as per Souliotes article and with those references Aigest (talk) 10:27, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Aleksi your current opinions are truely not for this page; but for Souliotes. We can (and should) say that Souliotes are a group of "ethnically Albanian who became integrated into the Greek nation", because we treat 6 centuries history, but we cannot (and should not) say that Botsaris was an "ethnical Albanian who became integrated into the Greek nation", because he is a single individual, who was either ethnically Albanian, or Hellenized Albanian; an individual cannot be "in the process of Hellenization". Per the arguments presented in the above section and per the sources in the article, it seems that he was an ethnically Albanian. Fullstop, if you have something new to add, about Botsaris, or Botsaris clan at that time, you may add it, but not generalizations about Souliotes, or other groups of ethnical Albanians, who later became assimilated into the Greek nation, because such generalizations imply the "time factor", i.e. what I said before "the process of Hellenization".Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:17, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

You already named it "who was either ethnically Albanian, or Hellenized Albanian". I say he was hellenized Albanian, you say he was ethnic Albanian. I doubt if there is a single detailed description presenting him non-hellenized and purely Albanian (the sources u provide don't give emphasis and details just say, M.B. the albanian bla bla..etc, the same happens with many other sources stateing him as Greek bla bla etc..). Moreover, depends on how you define ethnicity, but you argument is still lacking fundamental prove. Speaking just the language doesn't make you ethnic member of something- ethnicity is much more complicated and sometimes not clear.

Between the 'pure' Albanian and the complete 'hellenized' status we have a process that lasted some generations and off course a individual can be in the process of assimilation into another nation-there werent only pure Albanian or pure hellenized, what's wrong with you? (although I see there wasn't a pure and clear albanian ancestry as you insist). It seems that during the M. Botsaris years this 'proccess' was nearly (or fully) completed,
 * 1) as per sources (I count more on the detailed descriptions and not at the 'one word' characterizations)
 * 2) and off course as per discussion (see Yannismarou.) Your pure Albanian theory is entirely unproved (per sources and discussion).

If you have something new to add about Markos Botsaris (souliot non yet hellenized-something not a single book says) about sources we can rearrange our conclusion, but the fact is it seems he was already hellenized (as well as the rest of souliotes that years) as per sources and discussion. (suppose your fundamental disagreement on that is that all people are ethnically pure)Alexikoua (talk) 20:31, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I have added all I have in section. Yannis stoped it because he saw that this page is not about SOuliotes, but about Markos Botsaris. There are sources (primary and secondary) about Markos or his clan; if you have any new source; please add it;if you do not, please stop it. If you have about Souliotes in general please go to Talk:Souliotes.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:24, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Read Yanis' comments again. You misuse other's peoples comments too (except of sources).Alexikoua (talk) 14:06, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I've and Ruches inline too, if you insist in your version, bring something saying 'pure Albania' or 'not yet hellenized'.Alexikoua (talk) 14:15, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Lead
Per WP:LEAD, the lead should describe why the subject of the article is notable. Botsaris is notable for being a hero of the Greek War of independence. The lead should not go into digressions about what the Souliotes were and were not. I thus moved the passage about the Souliotes to the Early Life section, where it is more appropriate. Regarding the discussion on whether the Souliotes were Hellenized, I agree with both Yannismarou and Alexikoua. --Athenean (talk) 22:55, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree about the lead; as for the rest, you would agree with whatever that does not contain the word "Albanian".Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:17, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Suppose this is not a serious answer to go back to the pure Albanian version as you already did. We have reach an point with Aegest. You insist not to give arguments and ignore disc. page and sources. Bring something that gives a clear and pure ethnic status on Botsaris and stop reverting (you found a great opportunity in this 'sock' case to upload your approach again).Alexikoua (talk) 13:58, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Do you have any source? I am just asking because you are reverting 3 sources? I am quite clear; there are sources which state that Botsaris was not Hellenizes, but was ethnic Albanian; if you find any secondary RS, which state something contradict; than we have to put that he was an Hellenized Albanian. If you do not, why are you insisting. This is not a POV/NPOV issue, as there are no 2 POVs, there is only one set of sources which state something clearly.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:28, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Suppose you need to check these 3 sources again: the 2 of them don't specify if the adjective 'Albanian' refers to origin, ethnicity, language etc. That's why I said more detailed sources plz. About Murray, Winnifrith the argument is total wrong it says 'Souliotes, who were entirely Albanian' (Souliotes-not specifying the year, not Botsaris). I insist on Aegis, Yanismarou version.Alexikoua (talk) 20:04, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

In a number of sources I see that Souliotes are mentioned in the war of independence period as 'of Albanian descent' or origin. I wonder why you insist on the 'ethnic albanian' argument.Alexikoua (talk) 20:20, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Marko Botsari killed by an Albanian catholic mercenary
Marko Botsari was killed by Lleshi i Zi (Black Alexander, the son of Gjon Marku), a catholic Mirdite hero in the battle of Karpenisi. Greek folk songs sing it this way:


 * Ένας Λατίνος το σκυλί το χέρ' που να του πέση,
 * Πικρό τούφεκι έρριψεν στου Μάρκου το κεφάλι.

Tr.: A LATIN dog, may his hand perish, Shot a bitter rifle on Marko's head. (page 187)



Lleshi i Zi's name is mentioned in this connection by Faik Konitza in his review "Albania", published at Bruxelles at the end of the nineteenth century.

... ou l'auteur pretend que Marko Botsari fut tue dans la bataille de Karpenitz par LESHI I ZI ( sic!) (La Chevelure Noire) ... (page 135) Guildenrich (talk) 00:32, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Very nice, you should add the book as a reference in the article.Alexikoua (talk) 01:01, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Done, with a contemporary source 1979. --  S undefined ulmues (talk) 14:38, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Reality and balance
who are suliotes descended from, ethnicaly that is? A basic fact on their ethnicity is information. who they fought against and their contribution and association with the greek independece?a basic fact on that as well.linguisticaly Arvanitik-Albanian?Greek? Arvanitas and Albanian understand each other.does a greek understand arvanitika? The officail name of the reagion at the time should be stated. an explantion on localisms can be given in relation to the geographical names. --Besnikalushi (talk) 20:12, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

what about his childhood and education? --Besnikalushi (talk) 20:12, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

it can not be epirus you idiot because the officil name for the area was the pashilak of janina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Besnikalushi (talk • contribs) 20:54, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

You wrote 'western rumelia'. What's that?Alexikoua (talk) 21:08, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

the names of the area called by the authority that controlled it.like or not the state is and its admninistartive names are the legit forms of reconing an jurisdiction. --Besnikalushi (talk) 21:14, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

also...the suliotes can not be seen in isolation from the rest of the region.i.e a unique people. i agree that their ethnicity and langauge id albanian, their early consciousness was christian and later evolved to greek --Besnikalushi (talk) 21:21, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Alternate name
Per MOSBIO, I have removed the alternate name from the lead. There is no real need for it, as he it does not attest to the subject's notability, and he is hardly referred to as such by the sources. Besides it is also mentioned further down in the article. See also Talk:Kitsos Tzavelas. Athenean (talk) 21:25, 22 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It seems that it is used by an adequate number of sources making the addition of the alternative name useful. In any case I added 2 representative sources. Of course more sources can be added but it wouldn't look visually good to have that many sources in the lead just for a single minor fact.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:22, 22 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It's still against wp:mosbio, and this is enough. The Albanian translation of his name (as the source indicates []) is really irrelevant with the article.Alexikoua (talk) 22:31, 22 May 2010 (UTC)


 * If it was irrelevant and generally unknown then sources wouldn't even mention it. When BW added it he mentioned a past consensus, a link to it would clarify much of the situation.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:23, 22 May 2010 (UTC)


 * By the way there wan't any past consensus 'specifically' about the addition of the Albanian translation. But even if there was, let me remind you this edit summary [].Alexikoua (talk) 00:10, 23 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Whatever the consensus was about a link to it would be useful.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 08:41, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

MOSBIO states nothing about other languages. As long as Albanian was the mother tangue of him, it is clear that it should be in there. I do not understand why the Greek language needs to be there. Is there a reason for the Greek language to be? Balkanian`s word (talk) 09:22, 23 May 2010 (UTC)


 * 642 reasons, in fact . On the other hand, I found only *one* English language source that refers to him by the Albanian spelling .  Our readers are thus extremely unlikely to encounter it in that form, therefore there is no need for it.  It's included further down in the text anyway, courtesy of Zjarii, so now it appears twice.  The criterion about about "mother language" is something you have made up, and therefore boring.  If you feel so strongly about this, you might want to propose to move the article to "Marko Bocari".   Athenean (talk) 16:13, 23 May 2010 (UTC)


 * 0 reasons in fact .Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:20, 23 May 2010 (UTC)


 * ROFL. Athenean (talk) 17:13, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Athenean show me the sentence in MOSBIO that says that the name in Albanian should not be mentioned. --  S undefined ulmues (talk) 14:29, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Dimitrios Botsaris
According to user's User:Zjarri addition [] although he admitted that his edits were wrong [] (addition of a 1888 event that he 'participated' while he died at 1870...) he refused to remove them. So I do it myself. Since this Dimitrios Botsaris (son of Markos Botsaris) didn't participated with Koulouriotis on something I've corrected the wikiproject tags (in the related article), as per current article.Alexikoua (talk) 13:19, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Name
Why is his name in Albanian included in the opening paragraph? As far as we know his family fought the Albanians and Ottomans, he fought for an independent Greece and died as a Greek for an independent Greece. Perhaps it should be included, why not, but certainly further down. Politis (talk) 21:40, 14 July 2010 (UTC)


 * That's not so much the issue as the fact that the Albanian name is almost never used by English language sources, e.g. (and most of these are in fact Albanian language sources).  FYI, the Albanian name is included further down in the article. Athenean (talk) 01:04, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, the Albanian version is already there. So the edit can proceede.Politis (talk) 09:09, 15 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Seems like it was re-added by someone who didn't bother to read the talkpage. Virtually no English language sources use it, there's no real point in having it in the lead.  Athenean (talk) 02:49, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I can find 52 hits for this version


 * 807 for Marco Botzari


 * 5 for Mark Bocari


 * 38 for Marc Botzari

and I didn't search for all variants of the name, so obviously you're wrong.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 09:02, 9 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Very funny: You forgot to place the "" in order to reach more hits. Also the use of "Mark/Marc" isn't an argument to place Albanian alternative names. Alexikoua (talk) 16:28, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Try with ""(these will be the results). I did add the "" in this version but as you can see the format was disrupted.-- — ZjarriRrethues —  talk 17:14, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * That's really strange, because I get less than 30 when I search for "Marko Bocari" (if we only include Engloish language sources), and even fewer when I search for "Mark Botzari", even fewer for "Marc Botzari", none for "Mark Botzari", and so on.  As opposed to more than 500 for "Markos Botsaris".  Athenean (talk) 18:06, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)Most English sources don't use the ç so search without ç.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:14, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Athenean you are doing some misleading of the discussion. The problem is that he gained his notability as an Albanian, so per wiki policies his Albanian name should go to the lead. Google hits have nothing to do with this. As a matter of fact, following MOSBIO, his name in Greek shouldn't be in the lede, but only the Albanian one because he was notable as an Albanian first, however, we should give more info not less in the lede, so I accept the Greek name there. The whole article is named by the Greek name, although this too is questionable. Don't make controversial removals of sourced material next time. In addition, rather than taking out CN, try doing some referencing next time rather than reverting. When something is unreferenced, it is flagged in an attempt to improve the article, so please stop becoming disruptive and try to bring some contributions. --  S undefined ulmues (talk) 14:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC

He gained his notability as Albanian? Sulmues please stop this or concert and avoid unconstructive edits with misleading edit summaries (Greek citizen....please).Alexikoua (talk) 16:14, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm interpreting MOS:BIO correctly. His name in Albanian should stay in the lede because it's important to state his name in the language of his ethnicity. You want to make a speech on MOS:BIO, make it, no blind removals of sources and content please.--  S undefined ulmues (talk) 17:50, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Your interpretation of MOSBIO is completely inane and wrong, as usual. He was never "Albanian" and "Greek", because there was no Greece or Albania at the time.  Hardly any English language sources use "Marko Bocari", so it has no business in the lead.  You are also edit-warring and misusing rollback, for which you will be reported.  Athenean (talk) 17:54, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Obviously we have a severe misinterpretation of wp:mosbio. Sulmues please stop with the instant reverts and discuss the issue.Alexikoua (talk) 20:17, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Alexikoua you are also constantly reverting him and he isn't misinterpreting any policy. There is an adequate number of sources using that version so the name should be added in the lead.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * What do you mean? Misinterpreting googlehits (like above) isn't an argument.Alexikoua (talk) 20:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

(unindent) I'm not so WP:IDONTLIKEIT which is very disruptive.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:50, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The name is moved to the relevant part.Alexikoua (talk) 20:59, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)That's not a relevant part at all because alternative names go in the lead.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:18, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * They only go in the lead only if they are used by a substantial number of reliable English-language sources, which is not the case here. Athenean (talk) 21:21, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)Athenean WP:IDHT because I brought the links and you're simply refusing to acknowledge that fact.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:27, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * That's why we have wp:mosbio. If the alternative name is not closely related with his notability then it goes below (please be more careful on the accusations you launch: both here and in wp:ani).Alexikoua (talk) 21:33, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:IDHT Zjarri because I showed you the number of sources that use "Marko Bocari" are very few. If you can

t conduct a proper Google Books search, don't bother posting here. Now go to Google Books, select advanced search, select "English" as the language, then type "Marko Bocari" with the quotes, and see what you get. Athenean (talk) 03:28, 11 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Back to Athenean's comments about no Albania nor Greece existing: Albania nor Greece have to necessarily exist for an ethnicity to exist. Example: Kurds, ethnic group, no country of their own. Now, historically speaking, Ottoman Empire reigned over ethnically Albanian and Greek territories. Remember, Ethnicity ≠ Nationality. What I cannot absolutely comprehend is what is so wrong about adding a version of one's name in a different language? I mean, technically, he was involved in an "Albanian regiment of the French army", so obviously he is Albanian in some way or the next. And there are sufficient references in the article to prove that he was referred to Marko Boçari in Albanian-speaking areas. Case closed. --Kilibarda (talk) 17:54, 12 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The Albanian Regiment of the French Army consisted of both Greeks and Albanians [].Alexikoua (talk) 22:38, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The Orient Soldiers that joined the regiment were 300 Greeks and Albanians but the regiment itself existed since 1807 and in 1812 the regiment had about 3000 soldiers so even assuming that 299 of those 300 the O.S were in fact Greeks they would still be a small minority in the Albanian regiment(which would have to be renamed if didn't reflect the composition of its forces). That was actually the case of the Albanian Voisko of the Russian army which was initially an Albanian regiment but because Greek refugees joined it in great numbers its name was changed in 1st Greek Light Infantry Regiment.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:48, 12 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Zjarri, I have the feeling you are extremely oring (again): The Albanian regiment (2000 troops ) were merged with the 'The Greek infantry skirmishes' (1000 troops) []. But what's more important is that the term 'Albanian' wasn't used as an ethnic term at all []. Alexikoua (talk) 23:00, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)No I'm not oring but I think you are almost doing that by saying that the term Albanians didn't have an ethnic meaning(without even being able to associate that with the current discussion or produce a sufficient number of sources to support it even without associations to this issue). The subject didn't join the Orients and later was attached to the regiment but was a member of it prior to that event so any further arguments regarding that topic wouldn't be relevant to the article.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:19, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
 * (?) I've provided a source which clearly says that in this case the term 'Albanian' wasn't an ethnic one (also see wp:or)Alexikoua (talk) 23:32, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)You've provided a snippet that doesn't refer to any particular regiment but says that "someone" used because of fame acquired by Albanian troops, while in our case we are dealing with Albanian troops(verified by your sources) so where is the reference that connects that snippet sentence with the Albanian regiment of the French army that existed from 1807 to 1814?-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:39, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It's about all military formations formed in Italy & Ionian islands by western armies and had the epithet 'Albanian' ([] as I see it was also full of Chimarriote Greeks-6 companies). Since this is way too far from the main topic (Botsari's alt. lead name), a more precise argument should be presented.Alexikoua (talk) 00:18, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

GA for Marko in fall?
Made a B assessment and some improving edits, but the article is at a C status still. Someone has taken away the Lleshi i Zi reference, but I don't want to sort it out, who took it away, please explain why that reference was not of his liking. The war part is not properly expanded yet: and we still don't know who killed him from the article (Who doesn't like Lleshi i Zi???).

Since we all know one another, Greeks and Albanians, it would be nice to bring this guy to GA status together. --  S undefined ulmues (talk) 18:49, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

RFC
May we or may we not say the Albanian name of Markos Botsaris in the lede?  S undefined ulmues (talk) 15:59, 11 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I see nothing in WP:MOSBIO that prevents use of his Albanian name, if a substantial number of sources indicate that he is referred to by that name. Figureofnine (talk) 16:26, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * OK. [] and [] Beserks (talk • contribs) 10:10, 19 August 2010.
 * Thanks for confirming Figureofnine's claim: english bibliography completely 'ignores' this alternative form (no wonder 99% of the bibliography is Albanian).Alexikoua (talk) 18:57, 20 August 2010 (UTC)




 * A manual of European languages for librarians
 * Current trends in linguistics
 * The Ukrainian quarterly
 * Balkanistica, American Association for South Slavic Studies, 2007


 * Albanian literature: an outline of prose, poetry, and drama

There many more English-language sources using it but these 3 are sufficient to refute Alexikoua's 99% of the bibliography is Albanian claim(and you can see who author is on the page). Beserks shouldn't have searched for Bocarit because that gives results for the title of his dictionary.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:17, 20 August 2010 (UTC) -- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:17, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
 * From Zalmoxis to Jan Palach: studies in East European history-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:27, 20 August 2010 (UTC)


 * lol: ref 3 is missing the snippet, 2&1 you need to give at least the author. I'm sorry just click on Beserk's (ohh this Germanic nicks...) 99% are Albanian and the English ones are just a tiny fraction compared to 'Markos Botsaris'.Alexikoua (talk) 19:25, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Number 1 in the snippet list above is unclear (snippet doesn't show much), but from the little I can see it seems likely this is mention, not use – it's a discussion of how Albanians use names, not an English-speaking author using the name himself. Number 2 is E. P. Hamp (1972), "Albanian," Current Trends in Linguistics 9, 1649-50. That would be a reliable source. Can't find out much about the others. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:51, 20 August 2010 (UTC)


 * We don't usually use for the Greek heros of the revolution the Albanian form ( or transliteration) of their name in their articles. Why we should use it in Botsaris? Usually the Greek and the English forms are enough unless there is a significant reason to have it written in other languages. Which I don't see why it should be in Botsaris. As user Alexikoua has suggested the vast majority of the historiography about the Greek revolution (from 19th century till now) is using the Markos Botsaris. There would have been a point in using it if Botsaris himself was writing and signing his name in Albanian. There inst any such case as I know. Furthermore Arvanite/Souliotes din't write in Albanian but they wrote in Greek(not in Greek alphabet but in Greek language) as Arvanitika was a spoken language. It would have a point to use it if Botsaris was Albanian but we all know that Arvanite/Souliotes had a strong ethnic Greek conciousness. Especially Botsaris was a prominent leader of the Greek revolution. That has nothing to do with the initial origin of the first Arvanites who arrived on Greek mainland in the middle ages. They very well could have been ethnic Albanians before they intermix with local Greeks and their complete Hellenisation .The fact remain that they self-determined as Greeks. (Somehow the articles about Souliotes/Arvanites tend to forget their self-determination). As for the links that are used in the article the first one (Albanian historical folksongs, 1716-1943) uses "Botsaris" in English. Furthermore the song actually curses Botsaris for killing so many prominent Albanian warriors. "..a devil, a black dog". As for the second source (Discourses of collective identity in Central and Southeast Europe 1770-1945 ... By Balázs Trencsényi, Michal Kopeček)the English text again uses the term Botzaris. It is even more supportive that the Albanian form is not widely used! Therefore tne Albanian name should be removed as there inst any significant reason to mentioned it.Seleukosa (talk) 19:47, 21 August 2010 (UTC)


 * So what have we here? A handful of snippets?  The Ukrainian Quarterly?  The desperation in this is so evident it is comical.  2-3 sources that use "Marko Bocari" means nothing.  The point is, "Marko Bocari" is not anywhere close to common usage, which is what is needed to justify presence in the lead.  As one user has said, a substantial number of sources are needed, which is clearly not the case here.  I don't object to mentioning the Albanian name somewhere else in the article, but in the lead, no way.  Athenean (talk) 20:31, 21 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I think by now it's pretty clear that a substantial number of sources does not use "Marko Bocari". Desperate attempts at finding an occasional snippet here and there mean nothing and have proven absolutely nothing.  It's been long enough now, if "Marko Bocari" was commonly used in the English literature, it would be clear by now.  Case closed.  Athenean (talk) 07:38, 22 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The RfC is there to stay for 30 days. So far in this RfC:


 * 2 people with no Balkanic ancestry (Figureofnines and FPS) have found that there are sufficient sources to refer to his Albanian name (Marko Bocari was ethnically an Albanian don't forget);
 * 0 people with no Balkanic ancestry have responded that there aren't sufficient sources.


 * This gives 113 results in google books for the name.


 * I expect user:Athenean and user:Alexikoua to revert themselves and refrain from disruptive editing and edit-warring over this and to respect the RfC until the 30th day of it. --  S ulmues (talk) 12:48, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Quite a weird proposal. Actually you support a disruptive only spa account (Beserks) and also ignore a third part opinion which clearly states that there should be no alt. name in lead.Alexikoua (talk) 12:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't support Beserk's premature edit, neither do I support yours or Athenean's. I will bring all three of you to AN if you edit war or disrupt this RfC process. You have been warned. User:Seleukosa has a stated Greek ancestry, his/her opinion is not needed in this case, and neither is any Balkanic ancestry people. That's why we have an RfC. --  S ulmues (talk) 12:56, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Your interpretation of other users' comments is completely wrong. Figureofnines said the Albanian name can go in the lead if a substantial number of sources is found to use it.  Zjarri has produced 5 snippets, and Beserks 2.  That is not a substantial number.  Your Google Search is completely wrong because it includes Albanian language publications.  As this is the English wikipedia, it only matters what English language publications use (duh!).  And the number of English language publications that uses "Marko Bocari" is anything but substantial.  If you had done your google search correctly, you would have found that the number of sources that use "Marko Bocari" is much, much smaller.  As for FP, what is so hard about to understand about mention, not use?  2-3 sources that mention "Marko Bocari" is not sufficient to establish common usage by English language sources.  And for "Marko Bocari" to go in the lead, it is absolutely necessary to establish "common usage", which is certainly not the case here.  As for your threats, I would like to remind you that the Albanian name was removed before the initiation of this RfC, and all subsequent disruption has been caused by this Beserks fellow.  If he reverts again, you can both be sure that it is I who will report him.  Athenean (talk) 15:47, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


 * "Substantial number of sources: what does that mean? We have sources, and it's ok if they are in Albanian. In addition we have some in English. Besides you want to keep "Άγιοι Σαράντα" for Sarande in the article. The Greek name is only for Greek websites on Sarande, in English we don't write in Greek. If you tell me, that the Greek name on Sarande is because you still have some Greeks there, well, Marko Bocari will always remain an Albanian by ethnicity, so this is argument enough to keep his Albanian name. Last, I don't threat, I warn, and I need to warn you before I send you to ANs. --  S ulmues (talk) 16:00, 23 August 2010 (UTC) Besides let me ask you a question: what is the number that you would consider sufficient to claim for current usage in English? And how do you establish that number? If I give you more than 2-3 sources that have English publications then what happens? If I give you 10 is that sufficient for you? --  S ulmues (talk) 16:49, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Read above please. Botsaris like Arvanites/Souliotes self-determined themselves as Greeks. Don't forget that they have heavily intermix with local Greeks long before the war of independence.You can not call them "Albanian" by any reason.Seleukosa (talk) 09:16, 24 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh yes I may. In fact we have sources for that. Rather, proving that all the Arvanites and the Souliotes self-identify with Greeks is way more difficult. --  S ulmues (talk) 13:31, 24 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not going to give you a specific number, because if I will, I have a feeling you will game it and then declare victory regardless. In my experience however, a "significant" number would mean a substantial percentage of the sources that use "Markos Botsaris".  10 is not nearly enough.  And Albanian sources are definitely not OK, because  this is the English wikipedia, so in order to add names in the lede we need to establish common usage among English language sources.  From my own searches, the number of reliable English language sources that use "Marko Bocari" are extremely few, since "Markos Botsaris" is almost universally used.  Trust me, there is no way I would insist on this point if this weren't the case.  Athenean (talk) 16:49, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * You obviously joking Sulmues. Don't say that to an Arvanite! Have a look at previously discussion above. The matter has already been discused thoroughly.Seleukosa (talk) 17:54, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

OK, Marko Boçari in English and other sources [] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beserks (talk • contribs) 06:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, most of these sources are in Albanian, so they can't count. And even those that are in English, they mention, but do not use "Marko Bocari".  Athenean (talk) 08:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * "They mention but do not use" is a weird argument. Aigest (talk) 08:22, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Beserks link leads to 95% Albanian results (several books even mentioned Enver Hoxha as author). Only a tiny fraction uses the Albanian form to mention Albanian titles of books. This means nothing.Alexikoua (talk) 08:38, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * @Aigest: Not weird at all.  Just look up Use, not mention.  In order to determine whether a form of a name should go in the lead, it is necessary to establish "common usage".  There is a big difference between a source that uses "Marko Bocari", e.g. "Marko Bocari was a leader of the Souliotes", and a source that mentions that the Albanian version of his name is "Marko Bocari", as in "Markos Botsaris, whose name in Albanian is 'Marko Bocari'".  The first is an example of usage.  The second is an example of a mention.  Only usage counts here.  Athenean (talk) 08:46, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you think we can remove Greek: Kiparo from the Qeparo article, because it mentions, not uses Kiparo? Beserks (talk) 09:00, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually Kiparo[] has more hits than Qeparo [] (7:4). While the Albanian alt. of Botsaris represents a tiny fraction of less than 1:20 in English bibliography.Alexikoua (talk) 10:14, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

You must be mistaken for, because a close look to the link you gave, gives few Kiparos.

Kiparo, 1

Riparo, 2 ,

Ipsato, 1

luparo 1,

Kirata 1,  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beserks (talk • contribs) 10:26, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Suliotes were a devision of Tzamides
On the Matter of Souli. In this Book - Travels in the Ionian Isles, Albania, Thessaly, Macedonia, &c. during the years 1812-1813 (Google e-bog) by Sir Henry Holland on page 448 he talks about the souli… He clearly defines them as Christian Albanians. Also do note that this was before the Greek uprising started and that we can consider this a neutral observation by a person who had no stake in the matter.

Link to online book Quote from page 448 “They were Albanian in origin, belonging to the division belonging to that people called Tzamides, while many of their country men had become Muhametans, The souli Retained their Christian identity.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.52.34.203 (talk) 17:11, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Can some one add this book to the main artical as a refrence. Im not sure how to do it and dont want to mes anything up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.52.34.203 (talk) 17:38, 20 March 2011 (UTC)


 * They WERE Tsamides indeed, in the sence that they were living in Tsameria. Tsamides is not an ethnonym but a demonym. Foreign references before late 19th c. talking about "Albanians" need some interpretation. Albanian national identity was not yet existing, Albanian language was spoken by many bi- and multi-linguals in the Balkans, and "Albanian" could be called anybody living in the geographical area known then as Albania. Serious researchers looking for clues about the national identity of Souliotes can search in documents written and signed by Souliotes themshelves (and other "arvanites" of Greece) related to the Greek Revolution of 1821. They all declare they belong to and fight for the Greek nation and nobody makes any claim about "arvanitic" or "albanian" nation. Good knowledge of Greek is needed in this investigation, as all documents are in Greek and very few are found translated.--Euzen (talk) 17:32, 9 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Need not confuse ethnicity with nationalism. A nation can be composed of a wide range of different ethnicities. The Souliotes were Christian Albanian speakers. JoeTBA (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:38, 12 February 2018 (UTC)


 * And knowledge of Greek isn't necessary since Greek sources just like Albanian sources can be perceived as biased due to politics. JoeTBA (talk) 12 February 2018 (UTC)


 * A nation can be composed of more than one ethnicity but there was no 'albanian' ethnicity at the time. Also the Souliotes were Arvanites NOT Albanians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.6.1.186 (talk) 23:52, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Boçari ?

 * "Marko Boçari" -Llc 1 +
 * "Markos Botsaris" -Llc 145

Takabeg (talk) 22:42, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Ottoman Albanians?
I'm puzzled as to why such a term is used instead of just "Ottomans". If the souliotes are not referred to as "albanian souliotes" then there is no need in referring to the ottomans as "ottoman albanians".The ethnicity of the troops or groups is of no importance, and here it seems like it is just a weak attempt to portray albanians in a negative light Udha (talk) 19:45, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

It appears you need to read the inline references. The pasha of Shkodra was an Ottoman Albanian pasha, I can point you were Shkodra is located if you need some geographical advice.Alexikoua (talk) 21:23, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

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