Talk:Maroons

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Merge
Info on the page Maroon should be merged here Guettarda 22:38, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * The page Maroon was made into a disambiguation page since the above coment was made here. --Brian Z 20:57, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

"the governor"
Later, the governor signed a treaty promising the Maroons 2500 acres (10 km²) in two locations, because they presented a threat to the British

The governor of where? Brazil? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.151.81.206 (talk • contribs) (01:51, 24 February 2006)

I think I've addressed that question. Governor of Jamaica, and the two locations were also in Jamaica.Mikesiva (talk) 16:42, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Haiti
Should not Haiti be included as claiming maroons as an important part of its history? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.240.229.65 (talk • contribs) (10:34, 3 May 2006)

djuka
The picture captions include the word "Djuka". But there is no mention of this term in the text. Worse, the page for "Djuka" just redirects back to "Maroon". I'm left not knowing how a "Djuka Maroon" differs from an unqualified "Maroon" - is it a particular tribe? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.92.168.141 (talk • contribs) (10:19, 27 May 2006)
 * Hmmm, see this edit. &mdash; Khoikhoi 01:29, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

India?
"Maroon communities were formed among the Afro-Asians in South Asia who resisted slavery.[17] These communities of maroons still inhabit the South Asian countries." Is it certain that the Siddi of India are a) runaway slaves and b) not the descendents of the Swahili, who weren't slaves? Like the Swahili, some among them have modern African haplogroup E1b1a, and the Siddi (Saidi) name hints at Islam. It is possible that some Siddi are descendent of the original Black population of Asia/India. MrSativa (talk) 08:46, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

The "tribes' of Maroon peoples in Suriname
I will quote below a passage found at: http://lucy.ukc.ac.uk/EthnoAtlas/Hmar/Cult_dir/Culture.7834 describing the various groups of Maroons or "Bush Negros" In Suriname which should answer the question above about the Djukas. John Hill 02:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * "Today, according to Price (1976), there are six Bush Negro tribes. He divides them into two main groups on the basis of cultural and linguistic differences, as well as location: (1) the Eastern Tribes, consisting of the Djuka (Aucaner, Awka), the Aluku (Aluku nenge, Boni), and the Paramaka (Paramacca); and (2) the Central Tribes, consisting of the Saramaka (Saramacca), the Matawai, and the Kwinti (cf. the tribal distribution map in Price 1976: 5). The Djuka and Saramaka are the largest tribes, with estimated populations of 15,000 to 20,000 each. The Aluku, Matawai, and Paramaka are much smaller, with estimated populations of around 2,000 each. The smallest tribe is the Kwinti, with fewer than 500 people. Three main creole languages are spoken in Surinam: (1) Sranan (Sranan Tongo, Taki-Taki), which was once the language of the plantation slaves and is now the "national language" of Surinam, spoken throughout the country as a lingua franca; (2) Ndjuka, spoken by the Djuka, Aluku, and Paramaka; and (3) Saramaccan, spoken by the Saramaka and Matawai. It is not clear where the language of the Kwinti fits since it has not been adequately described. The Voegelins (1977) list a fourth language, Aucaan, but give no further information about it. Both Price and the Voegelins agree that Sranan and Ndjuka are, with little effort, mutually intelligible; while Saramaccan is the most distinct of the three languages and mutually unintelligible with Sranan. (It is not specified whether Saramaccan and Ndjuka are also mutually unintelligible.) There is one key difference between Price and the Voegelins with respect to the classification of these languages. The latter classify all of them as English-based creole languages belonging to the Atlantic branch of the West Germanic group of Germanic within Indo-European. Price would presumably agree except in the case of Saramaccan. If his estimate of the derivations of the Saramaccan vocabulary is correct (i.e., 50 percent African, 20 percent Portuguese, 20 percent English, and 10 percent Dutch and Amerindian), then Saramaccan cannot be classified as an English-based creole. Furthermore, Saramaccan is fully a tone language (cf. Price 1976: 35-36; Voegelin 1977: 142-44)."

Capitalization
Should the word Maroon be capitalized? Its capitalization is inconsistent in the article. -Pgan002 10:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

We've agreed that "Maroon" will be used to describe those Jamaican Maroons who signed treaties with the British in 1739 and 1740. All other "maroons" should not be capitalised.Mikesiva (talk) 16:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Jamaican material removed 26 January 2007
The following material was added by an IP editor (IP 172.188.176.124) under Usage and other terms by someone who apparently did not read the whole article. Much of it is already in the section on Jamaica. The Jamaican section could do with a good rewrite.

Removed material:


 * Following the seizure of the Spanish colony of Jamaica by a British force sent to the region by Oliver Cromwell, the local Maroons fought a prolonged insurgency campaign against the new occupier. Amongst their leaders was a female chief known as 'Nanny', now an official national hero in independent Jamaica.  Local legend maintains that Nanny was able to catch British musket balls with her teeth and throw them back at the advancing redcoats.


 * Fighting from their mountain hideouts and protected by thick vegetation and the tropical climate, the Maroons prevailed and were eventually able to negotiate a peace treaty with the British. This treaty awarded them local self rule within two parts of the Jamaican hinterland, and they remain there today, governed independently by their 'Colonel of Maroons', a little known remnant of the original slave population brought from Africa by the Spanish in the 1500s.


 * The Maroons have their own language which is largely based on West African languages and when a Nigerian film crew visited them in the early 1980s, they were able to converse without recourse to English.

Verification and citation is needed for some of this. --Bejnar 03:09, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Most of this information is common knowledge. The article should clearly delineate Maroons on different islands from each other and from South American Maroons.  Their history is different, and they should not be lumped together. Josh a brewer 02:46, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, but "most of" what is "common knowledge"? The specific information about Jamaica, or about Maroons in general?  I am really not being a smartass, either, I am simply unclear as to what you are saying.  I agree with you about clearly delineating the different groups of Maroons and their different histories. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  03:19, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America
Should this article be listed as part of WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America? I believe that it should, since all Maroon peoples are, to some degree or another, descended from indigenous peoples, in combination with escaped slaves, and fugitive Europeans. I believe Maroons would fit in the same way the Métis do. Any thoughts? --- RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  03:28, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


 * How do you know that "all" Maroon people are part indigenous? This MAY be true (and probably is with some groups - particularly on islands), but to my knowledge, some other groups - such as in Suriname - have (and have had) as little contact as possible with the local "Indians" (or Europeans, for that matter). The Suriname Maroons (or "Bushnegroes") are certainly of mostly African descent, and, as far as I know, consider themselves to be of African descent. I think we could get into some serious difficulties here. The Métis are, by self-definition, part "Indian" and part-European - so their situation is - I would contend - somewhat different. Are there any Maroons who would like to comment? John Hill (talk) 03:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

GA assessment
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria


 * 1) Is it reasonably well written?
 * A. Prose quality:
 * B. MoS compliance:
 * 1) Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
 * A. References to sources:
 * B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
 * C. No original research:
 * 1) Is it broad in its coverage?
 * A. Major aspects:
 * B. Focused:
 * 1) Is it neutral?
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) Is it stable?
 * No edit wars, etc:
 * 1) Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
 * A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
 * B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail:
 * 1) Is it stable?
 * No edit wars, etc:
 * 1) Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
 * A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
 * B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail:
 * B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail:
 * Pass or Fail:

1:
 * Minor grammar issues, e.g. clauses such as “As early as 1655”, “to a significant extent”, “in some cases”, “until recently”, “amid increasing hostilities”, etc. need to be offset by commas and “were usually displaced; as sugar cane” is not correct use of a semi-colon.
 * Several WP:LEAD violations, e.g. lead does not summarize all major points of the article and lead should not contain unique information (i.e. etymology).
 * Use of weasel words, e.g. “on some islands”, “only on some of the larger islands”, “in some cases”, “some Maroons kept their freedom”, etc.
 * Use of peacock words, e.g. “faced great odds”, “were able to thrive”, “vibrant community”, “the interesting history”, etc.
 * Phrasing such as “remain to this day (2006)” is discourage as, for obvious reasons here, it quickly becomes outdated.
 * Maroon should be capitalized, e.g. “In Cuba, there were maroon communities”

2:
 * Aforementioned phrasing issues cause me to question whether information is truly from a published source and not from an editor, e.g. “faced great odds”, “communities were able to thrive”, etc. Also, phrasing such as “one of the most influential”, the “African traditions” paragraph and “The Boni Maroon Wars in Suriname by Wim S.M. Hoogbergen gives an overall picture” sentence are all questionable.
 * Lead states “Maroon populations are found in Jamaica, Amazon River Basin to the American states of Florida and North Carolina”. Where exactly are they in Florida and North Carolina?  I suppose anything is possible in the Appalachians and Everglades, but I can’t believe this without a source.  Also, if this is true, content will be needed to address Maroons in these areas.
 * The paragraph beginning with “Beginning in the late 17th and 18th centuries…” needs citations supporting the statistics/numbers therein.

3.
 * Content is often contradictory, e.g. lead states “A Maroon … was a runaway slave”. Article later states “Guyana and Suriname, still have large Maroon populations” and provides 1955 photos of Maroons. Article, therefore, implies both that Maroons are still in existence and Maroons are not in existence.  Further, article asserts “the slave trade [was abolished] in 1807”.  Unless Maroons live up to 200 years, they cannot still be runaway slaves.
 * Article is further contradictory in that it asserts Maroons struggled “to survive against white attackers” and “had to fight of white attackers” and face “colonial armies”, yet they were powerful enough to “fight to a draw” and sign treaties freeing them. Better description of 1) notable conflicts and 2) accumulation of might sufficient to defeat “colonial armies” is necessary.  Further, the article implies this treaty was with the British, yet article history begins with “slaves had escaped from Spanish and Portuguese owners” (essentially defining Maroons as escaped slaves of those countries) and no mention of the British is made until discussion of Jamaican Maroons.
 * Article is further contradictory, as it states “faced great odds to … obtain food”, yet asserts “The jungles around the Caribbean Sea offered food, shelter, and isolation for the escaped slaves”.
 * Non sequitur sentences, e.g. “Sir Francis Drake enlisted several 'cimaroons' during his raids on the Spanish” and “Another author who wrote on the Boni-history is John Gabriel Stedman”.
 * Article is a hodgepodge of information, experiences, etc. pertaining to Maroons in several geographic areas. This lack of organization makes the article difficult to read and/or follow.  Perhaps history sections should be divided into “main” geographic areas; several geographic areas mentioned in the lead are not addressed.
 * References themselves indicate where article is lacking content, e.g. no discussion, or identified discussion, of the Boni Maroon Wars, no discussion of the settlements in Cuba, no discussion of “religion as politics”, etc.
 * Nonsensical statements such as “Seeking to separate themselves from whites, the Maroons gained in power and amid increasing hostilities, they raided and pillaged plantations”.  In this context, by definition, an escaped slave is “separated from whites”.  Further, one seeking to separate oneself from the whites would not go about it by attacking white plantations.

General:


 * Article appears to be significantly lacking in organization and content. Please let me know if elaboration or assistance is needed.  Ɛƚ ƈơƅƅ ơƚɑ  talk 19:43, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Suriname Maroons
Maroons of Suriname are a major project on the Dutch Wikipedia now, see a.o. nl:Marrons van Suriname and its talk page. We've taken up a cooperation project with the Tropenmuseum, a major cultural museum in Holland dealing with the colonial history. Of course, there are many interrelations with British history, if only because the British 'swapped' Suriname for New Holland, now New York, and kept British Guyana (or Demerara). Jamaica is also a major part of 17th and 18th history of the Caribbeans. In short, we need historians and cultural anthropologists to complete this part of the encyclopedia.

You might be of great help by completing this part of colonial history. In turn, we can translate or adapt your work on the Dutch version. There's a short literature list at Suriname Maroons talkpage that includes works of R. Price (1976) and more recent ones; if you are insecure of any of the works named you can ask your questions there. What you can be sure of, the best scholars on the subject, including Alex van Stipriaan (leader of the project) are all there. I'd like all of you to take part in this project, as it is important for the other Wikipedias as well. Thanks, - Art Unbound (talk) 22:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Please do not place this detailed material in this general article. If it doesn't fit in existing articles, then, like the case of Jamaica, and the Jamaican Maroons article, a Suriname Maroons should be created. --Bejnar (talk) 16:35, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Geographical distribution
This is a useful section as it provides a good way to appropriately link the many individual articles on maroons in various areas. However, there is a tendency, rife in the Wikipedia edit space, to incorporate too much of the underlying articles in what should be brief synopses. I have rewritten a couple of the entries, others need work. --Bejnar (talk) 16:35, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

While that is true, a number of the country sections don't have corresponding individual articles, i.e. Cuba. Until such time as those articles are created, I've broadened the information on maroons in those territories.Mikesiva (talk) 12:54, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

maroon (slang)
When Bugs Bunny uses "Maroon" as a term of derision, is it based on the cimarrón peoples, or does it have a different etymology? Canute (talk) 21:17, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It's meant to be a mispronunciation of "moron." The full line is "What a maroon, what an ignoranimus." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Digitalmaven (talk • contribs) 00:26, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Use
Why does the intro leave out Africa? The French at least used the term on the Mascarene islands (Cheke & Hume, 2008). FunkMonk (talk) 05:43, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * A lead does not deal with small details, that is for the text. --Bejnar (talk) 04:25, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Title/ Wiki entry
Why is it Maroon (people). It's not an ethnicity or somethin. The wiki entry for this should be like "Maroon Settlement" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dudanotak (talk • contribs) 19:39, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually in many cases it was thought of as an ethnicity. What unifies all of these topics is the people who originated the settlements. This article is about them, culture, development etc., not just villages. --Bejnar (talk) 04:28, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Marron
Editor Sue Douglasss suggested in an edit that the lead should contain the information that the term "maroon" could have been derived from the South American Spanish word marron, meaning "brown". (No source given.) However, the Spanish word "marron" has a couple sources suggesting that it in turn comes from the French marron meaning "chestnut brown" or "wild", and that the French word itself derives from the Spanish cimarrón. The alternative etymology for the French word marron is a borrowing from the Italian marrone. Of course we also have the problem that moreno meaning "dark-skinned" or "brown-skinned" coming from "moro" for "Moor", is closely related and may have influenced the eventual meaning. All and all, this doesn't belong in the lead, but with proper sourcing might go in a "Name" or "Etymology" section. --Bejnar (talk) 05:29, 27 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Just noting this here since it seems similar. An IP edit changed the etymology to say that the marron is connected to the color brown, not the meaning of wild or feral. CNRTL clearly gives the meaning for the adjective marron2 -onne as wild/feral and separate from the homonym marron, which can mean "the fruit of the chestnut tree" or the color brown. In the context of a person who flees enslavement, the "feral" meaning of marron is evident in the CNRTL etymological example from 1658: "Nègre Maron" (Rochefort, Histoire naturelle et morale des Isles Antilles de l'Amérique, p.322, ibid., p.335). As CNTRL noted, "Le sens d'«esclave nègre fugitif» semble être une création des colons, née aux Antilles, due à une compar. des Noirs échappés avec les animaux domestiques devenus sauvages après s'être enfuis dans les montagnes»." Carter (talk) 15:07, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Terminology
Just today, IP user 67.211.244.14 changed the terms "runaways" to "escaped Africans," and "black slaves" to "enslaved Africans," which I think is a turn for the best. It challenges the prejudice embedded in its traditional use, which assumes that all Blacks were enslaved by changing the implication to mean that they have instead "been enslaved" and leaving the space open for "Blacks" who had been racialized, but were not in chattel slavery, what has been commonly misnamed "freedmen" (plenty were born in freedom, thus, could not have been freed). This is also a trend in scholarship (I could supply sources per request). However, I still think that the term "enslaved Africans" falls short of historical accuracy. It assumes that all of the enslaved Blacks were Africans. While the majority were so, there was in fact always a good portion of "creoles," enslaved Blacks born in the Americas who took to the wilderness escaping the plantation system. An alternative (present in scholarship too) is to simply write, "enslaved Blacks" as a generic term when the place of origin cannot be ascertained to have been in Africa. It maintains the connotation implied in the changes of IP user 67.211.244.14, namely that these were individuals who had been enslaved rather than being natural slaves, and it also makes use of the word "Black" (capital initial) as a socio-political term rather than a racial one. In other words, "Black" here is not so much a racial term, but a word that describes the racialized condition that most Africans and their descendants found themselves in European colonial settings. I am making the change for this usage of the terminology, but would appreciate your feedback here. Cheers,  Caballero / / Historiador    ☊  13:50, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Sure, do the best you can. I learned how difficult this can be when I tried (unsuccessfully) to get "maroon" in caps  in the Great Dismal Swamp maroons article.  It's quite complicated as some resources have one thing and some have another.  I even called some of them and we did chat.  Gandydancer (talk) 15:06, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

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More Information on The World in which Maroons Lived
In reading this article, I saw that there was little information on maroons’ relationship with colonial powers, the natural environment in which they lived, their warfare tactics and battles, their trade, and their procedures regarding new members and crimes. I added a section on these topics. I would have expected to see more about the natural world they lived in and how they interacted with outsiders in the very dynamic and strained world in which these communities developed. All of my information came from Richard Price’s Maroon Societies: Rebel Slave Communities in the Americas, which is in my opinion an exceptional and detailed source about maroon societies.

Lsalefty (talk) 19:30, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

capitalization of maroon/Maroon
it's about 50/50 either way. I left this but am just noting the inconsistency for someone who wants to pick one or the other and remedy the discrepance. Elinruby (talk) 01:32, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

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Usable content?
I had a student who put together something for this page, but didn't move anything live. I wanted to link the page here (User:Ddvir/sandbox) to see if there's anything that could be used. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 16:25, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

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Is maroon capitalized or not?
I think it shouldn’t be, like “slave” isn’t. It isn’t a proper name; see Manual of Style/Capital letters and the link to proper names there. Seminoles, Creeks, Navajos have capitalized initial letters because they’re proper names. Maroon isn’t. Anyone disagree? deisenbe (talk) 20:41, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Since there's been no answer, I'm standardizing as small letter. deisenbe (talk) 16:08, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

We've now agreed that the capital "M" should only be used to describe those Jamaican Maroons who signed treaties in 1739 and 1740. All other maroons should not be capitalised.Mikesiva (talk) 16:46, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

"Survive from colonists" ?
The article currently reads:

"Maroon communities faced great odds to survive from colonists, ..."

This is ungrammatical and ambiguous. I'm guessing that "survive from colonists" means something like "survive attacks by hostile colonists." This should be clarified, preferably with examples/citations.

Karl gregory jones (talk) 21:20, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

You're right. Thanks. ✅ Carlstak (talk) 01:41, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 10 November 2019

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved as proposed. (non-admin closure) – Ammarpad (talk) 06:19, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

– Seems like a clear primary topic due to long-term significance. Ethnic groups normally take a plural demonym as a title. Sangdeboeuf (talk) 12:43, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Maroon (people) → Maroons
 * Maroons → Maroons (disambiguation)
 * Agreed. Carlstak (talk) 17:30, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Also agree that no changes are needed. Gandydancer (talk) 18:25, 10 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Support This is a clear WP:PLURALPT.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 08:03, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Support. Clear primary topic and should be plural. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:52, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Support first only and just merge maroons into maroon (disambiguation) Red   Slash  00:21, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Support Clear primary topic. Dimadick (talk) 12:47, 18 November 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Recent additions - March 2021
I have now twice reverted your recent addition to the top of this article. Per MOS:LEAD, the opening paragraph of an article should give a brief description of the topic, in the form of "Maroons are descendants of escaped African slaves..." or some such. The article should not jump immediately into the history of the Maroons without first defining who they are. Also, there is already a "History" section in the article, and the information you have added is already sufficiently covered in that section. You are free to expand on the existing history section if you feel something is missing, but since you have now been twice reverted, please discuss the matter first. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 15:39, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 April 5 § Cimarron (people)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 April 5 § Cimarron (people). Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 11:31, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

“Mauritius” section
The Maroon article is specifically about escaped African slaves in the Americas. Escaped Asian slaves should not be part of this article. The information in this “Mauritius” section is partly contradicted by the historical information in the general “Mauritius” article which indicates that the Indian workers were actually indentured workers, not actually slaves, which was also the case in other British colonies. Canuckft (talk) 18:31, 25 September 2022 (UTC)