Talk:Marquess of Lothian

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I have found only 3 daughters of the 13th Marquess and no son. --VM 21:53, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Article is correct re: heir presumptive. Do we need a article seperately explaining the differences (-v- apparant) or is this covered already elsewhere? -- Alci12 18:19, 25 Mar 2005

Re: differences: I think the difference between heir apparent and heir presumptive is that the heir apparent is an offspring of the current incumbent and an heir presumptive is an offspring of an ancestor of the current incumbent. Is that right? --VM 18:23, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No, that's not it. An heir apparent is someone who need only outlive the current holder to inherit. No one can be born who would displace him from the line of succession. An heir presumptive, on the other hand, can be prevented from inheriting by the birth of someone with a greater "right". In a title to "heirs male of the body" there's not much difference between this and the way you've conceptualized it, but the marquessate of Lothian has a special remainder, failing heirs male of the body, to the other heirs of entail succeding to the 1st Marquess in his estate "for all time to come". In the current situation, the brother is "presumptive" because the current holder could, at some point, father a son. - Nunh-huh 18:50, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * VM's definition is effectively accurate, though, except where female succession is allowed (Princess Elizabeth became heiress presumptive in 1936 because George VI could yet have had a son). At least, I can't think of any other source for an heir presumptive.  —Tamfang (talk) 03:26, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Lord Newbattle
Gentlemen, is not it Newbattle, rather than Newbottle? --Anglius 04:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Sources differ. Burkes is a bit confused: "THE 12TH MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN, Earl of Lothian, Earl of Ancram (twice), Viscount of Briene, Lord Jedburgh, Lord Ker of Newbattle, Lord Ker of Nisbet, Langnewtoun, and Dolphinstoun, Lord Ker of Newbottle, Oxnam, Jedburgh, Dolphinstoun and Nisbet and Baron Ker of Kersheugh, Co Roxburgh", but Cracroft's gives both as "Newbottle" (changing the first to "Lord Newbottle"), and also gives both as "Newbottle". Proteus (Talk) 07:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I thank you, Mr. Tilman. I would think that it would Newbattle, since that is the name of the village. --Anglius 20:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I've given the article a major rehaul, based on the Complete Peerage, and it seems that some of the peerages are indeed "Newbottle" and some "Newbattle". However, I'm now not even sure the "Newba/ottle" peerages are used &mdash; the 3rd and 4th Marquesses certainly used "Lord Jedburgh" whilst their grandfathers were Marquesses, and I can't find any information that suggests the later Marquesses didn't follow suit. Proteus (Talk) 21:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your effort, sir. --Anglius 00:42, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Ancram succession
The account of the earldom of Ancram is puzzling. Sir William (first earl of Lothian of the second creation) is described as eldest son of the first earl of Ancram, but the second earl was his brother? Was there a special remainder? —Tamfang (talk) 03:26, 21 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It's explained in Robert Carr, 1st Earl of Ancram:
 * ...he was elevated to the peerage, under the titles of Earl of Ancram... It was therefore arranged, in the patent granted to the subject of this memoir, that his own title should descend to the children of his second marriage, he thus enjoyed the singular honour of being father of two peers.
 * I have to say, though, that this page about the various Lothian titles is extremely confusing and could do with a rewrite.  J Rawle  (Talk) 10:38, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Template:British marquesses
This template links to the articles on the current holders of the marquessates, not to the marquessates themselves. In the case of Lothian, it links to Michael Ancram (and appears at the bottom of that article), and does not link to Marquess of Lothian. I therefore suggest that it should not appear at the bottom of Marquess of Lothian. As can be seen from "Pages that link to "Template:British marquesses"", it does not appear at the bottom of any of the other 33 articles on marquessates (I amended this one and seven others yesterday, so as to bring them into line with the other 26). I therefore propose to remove the template from the bottom of this page. Alekksandr (talk) 18:59, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Now done. Alekksandr (talk) 20:41, 25 July 2017 (UTC)