Talk:Marshall Applewhite

Untitled
The entry that his spouse was "Louise Linant" is absolutely incorrect. He was not married to his sister. The correct entry would be "Ann P. Nickerson". Source: <> -XATMO92 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.114.61.107 (talk) 16:04, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Someone should put up that weird picture of him with the "cult-like" eyes on this page as *the* picture for his entry. Anyone who saw the news story at the time would know what I'm talking about.

The picture in this article is terrifying, I think it should be changed. :-\ --72.191.122.214 05:37, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Not rat poison and cyanide. Where it says "He committed suicide with 38 other members in Rancho Santa Fe, California by mixing liquid with rat poisoning and cyanide. " is wrong. The suicide was accomplished by ingestion of phenobarbital (which is a medicine still used to treat certain seizures) mixed with vodka, along with plastic bags secured around their heads to induce asphyxiation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Senhuan (talk • contribs) 01:21, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I wondered about this, since it is inconsistent with the "Heavens Gate" article's description. I didn't know which was right, so I didn't change it. If someone has a good sorce for this, they should change it and cite it. Thanks.

Herff?
If this blurb from the Bonnie Nettles page is to be believed, then this page should be the redirect instead of Herff Applewhite:

"Bonnie Nettles was co-leader of a group with Herff Applewhite, (Herff never went by the name "Marshall" according to friends and family) and became the leader of what turned into the Heaven's Gate cult after Nettles death."

Either that, or the Bonnie Nettles page should be changed to note the un-cited information.

On the other hand, it might make as much sense to link it to Do or Peep. Since any group that commits mass suicide is insane by definition (either they're insane, or we all are, and we outnumber them), perhaps it's just as well that Wikipedia doesn't call the guy by his preferred name. --Robertb-dc 23:52, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Pretty sure the whole thing was an elaborate hoax based on the name Matzoh Heppelwhite —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.97.5.219 (talk) 03:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Archive of his ramblings
Too lazy/underqualified to post this 

Creepy though, his username? Doe. Everybody mocked him.

article not quite right
The news story given as citation 2 says applewhite pretended to his sister that he was in hospital for heart problems, when in fact the admission was psychiatric, there he met Bonnie. The article then repeats that he was admitted for heart problems? Sounds wrong.Merkinsmum 13:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Hang on, I always heard he was against the castration, but permitted it as a way of making it easier to abstain from sex.

It says in the article about the Heavens Gate Cult that the members drank vodka and took phenobarbital before putting bags over their heads; the Marshall Applewhite article however states under Heavens Gate Suicide that the members drank liquid and took rat poison and possibly cyanide. Which of these is correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.122.0.246 (talk) 21:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

The comment about the Level Above Human being equivalent to a mainstream Christian's Heaven is inaccurate. I'm not even sure what the Heaven is that is being referred to ambiguously as mainstream. Regardless, Applewhite clearly describes this Level as both physical and spiritual, in the video at http://www.illuminatiarchives.org/video/heavens-gate-cult-classroom-video-sessions/  Also, why are there so many objectionable phrasings and borderline homophobic language on this discussion? I no longer find the associated page so credible due to language like "was Applewhite a homo?". Dylan Hunt (talk) 23:43, 26 January 2009 (UTC)Dylan Hunt

Rewrite
I've cleaned this article up considerably (grammar, redundancy, etc.) but it still does not sound all that great. If someone has the time and energy, I think it needs to be rewritten. --Prewitt81 18:43, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Applewhite in Salzburg.
How could he be sent to Salzburg, Austria, while in military service, if Austria is a neutral and not NATO country. There should be none american military stationing there like for exemple in Germany. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.11.49.236 (talk) 23:36, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

After his service was up?
The article states: "After his service was up, Applewhite became a college teacher." What does "After his service was up" mean? Religious service? No mention of any service precedes this sentence. Have I run into a Wikipedia Americanism?Alpheus (talk) 09:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Did you see the section on military service? He served in the military and was, according to his sister, Honourably Discharged at the rank of Sergeant after being discovered having a homosexual relationship with a student. Icemotoboy (talk) 04:10, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think there's any way that could be true in 1956. More likely he completed his 2 year commitment.

Applewhite homo?
Was Applewhite homosexual? I think I recall reading that somewhere when the Heaven's Gate thing occurred. Didn't he lose a job because he got caught with a boy? I think including this would go a long way to help understanding Applewhite (why he had himself castrated, etc). Was he a self-loathing homosexual? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.153.188 (talk) 19:25, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I was always under the impression that he was gay too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.185.238.74 (talk) 20:00, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Homosexuality?
There are several reliable sources that mention Applewhite's sexuality as gay or bisexual: etcetera. I propose adding to the "Bonnie Nettles" section the following:
 * The Advocate, May 13, 1997
 * The Washington Post, March 29, 1997
 * Aliens: why they are here, by Bryan Appleyard, published 2005
 * The Sociology of Religion: A Substantive and Transdisciplinary Approach, by George Lundskow, published 2008
 * Dante & the Unorthodox: The Aesthetics of Transgression, by James L. Miller, published 2005
 * In 1972, Applewhite met a 44-year-old nurse named Bonnie Nettles at a Houston psychiatric hospital, which he had voluntarily entered because of depression, hearing voices, and "homosexual urges". Nettles convinced him that they were on earth as aliens and that Armageddon was coming. On August 28, 1974, the 43-year-old Applewhite was arrested in Harlingen, Texas for stealing credit cards.

In reading some of the above links, though, it occurs to me that some sources attribute a *lot* of the cult's beliefs to Applewhite's suppressing his homosexual urges. There could be a larger section added to the article regarding this subject. Thoughts? -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 01:57, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I read the first 2 links. The first one says that the homosexuality issue is being blown out of proportion and it overshadows the fact that Marshall Applewhite and psychological problems, heard voices in his head, was depressed. The second link talks about him having a priest for a father and he was probably into the christian religion. A lot of gay people are psychologically scared by the Abrahamic religion and this probably played a big role in his life. His fellow cult members who later left, also made the statement that he was repressing himself. He forced his members to dress neutral and pretend they didn't have urges and made them confess which was humiliating to the members. Quite a lot of priests are gays because they try to escape their "sin" by becoming priests. SURE, GO AHEAD and write a section about it Why hasn't this been done already? Vmelkon (talk) 12:44, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Herff Applewhite's stage career not in his "30s"
I met my wife-to-be at a dorm mixer at the University of Colorado, Boulder, on June 16, 1956. She told me she was in the chorus line for a school production of "Oklahoma." I attended most of the rehearsals and the opening day performance of that show. The lead role of "Curly" was played by Herff Applewhite. At that time he had just turned 25 years old. He was always known as "Herff"--in fact, I didn't know he had a first name until the news articles about the Heaven's Gate suicides came out in 1997. I have, somewhere among my late wife's possessions, a clipping from the student newspaper that appeared the day after the opening of "Oklahoma" (to mixed reviews). It includes a picture with Herff in the lead role. "Reliable citations" were asked for. Is an eyewitness account good enough? Gdthayer (talk) 17:59, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Copyedit
I hit this on request. Here are some comments:


 * The writing was loaded with academic claims and counterclaims. Is that what it should be about? The debate about whether they "believed" or were "controlled" goes on endlessly, but the difference could be better articulated. E.g., was there any restriction on member's ability to exit?
 * I stripped out a lot of the "he believed that" stuff leaving the beliefs. His claims were so farcical that I don't think anyone will be confused.
 * Has anyone addressed A's obvious economic motives for maintaining his cult?
 * How much overlap is there with Heaven's Gate (religious group)? I didn't check, but I see no reason for a lot of repetition.
 * Given the absence of a deity from his beliefs, should HG be called a religious group or just a cult?
 * I guess this doesn't belong in the article, but it's notable that the latest Alien movie Prometheus isn't so far removed from A's theory!
 * Cheers. Lfstevens (talk) 00:38, 6 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Some responses, out of order:
 * To me, the most interesting question about Applewhite was "How did this guy talk 40 people into killing themselves for what seems like a patently absurd reason?" So the "faith" vs "control" debate contains a lot of attempts to answer that question. There really weren't restrictions on members' leaving the group, Applewhite generally took the view that if you wanted to leave you weren't the type he wanted. (Although he may have changed a bit as time wore on, but that only extended to psychological manipulation--not locking people up.)
 * Oddly enough, I don't recall reading much about his economic motives. He really did live a pretty luxurious life in the end, but spent a decent amount of time living outside/in cramped quarters.
 * I'm not sure how much overlap there is, I briefly skimmed the Heaven's gate article before starting this one, but basically just put in what I thought would ideally be in a biography of him. I left some things in a sandbox that would work well for the group's article though.
 * As far as religion vs. cult, that's more or less a preference/political issue. A number of academics have totally abandoned the usage of "cult" in favor of "new religion", but popular media, the anti-cult movement, and some academics (Lalich, for example) still use it.
 * Good point about Prometheus, rest assured, if Applewhite were still alive he would have made sure to catch that one :) Mark Arsten (talk) 01:04, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Brainwashing
The distinction about whether the cult members was brainwashed is very odd, and ambiguous. What is this saying? Some argue that they were brainwashed, while others say... something that sounds like a definition of brainwashing.

"Lalich speculates that they were willing to follow Applewhite in suicide because they had become totally dependent upon him, and hence were poorly suited for life in his absence.[186] Davis attributes Applewhite's success in convincing his followers to commit suicide to two factors: he isolated them socially and cultivated an attitude of complete religious obedience in them.[187] Applewhite's students had made a long-term commitment to him, and Balch and Taylor infer that this is why his interpretations of events appeared coherent to them.[188]"

I just don't see how this is supposed to be *not* brainwashing.

It's like saying "while some argue that King Kong was a giant simian, others counter that he was merely an enormous gorilla." zadignose (talk) 05:27, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, what I tried to do was communicate the explanations that academics have given for why people followed him. Most of the scholars who wrote about this find "brainwashing" as an explanation to be somewhat simplistic and offer more nuanced explanations. Here's one journal article that addresses the issue. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:02, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Jonestown
I think the article should somehow mention Jonestown in relation to the Heaven's Gate deaths. Something like "...excluding deaths at Jonestown, which are suspected to be either a mass suicide or a mass murder". Brandmeistertalk  19:43, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
 * No objections to that, perhaps it might work best in the notes section. The Call of Cthulhu (talk) 00:50, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Anachronism

 * He lost his position there after pursuing a sexual relationship with a male student; his church did not support same-sex relationships and he was subsequently frustrated by his sexual desires.

This anachronistic statement is sourced to Balch & Taylor 2002 p. 210 and Raine 2005, p. 107. I was able to check Balch & Taylor 2002 for the statement "his church did not support same-sex relationships and he was subsequently frustrated by his sexual desires" and found that it did not support the statement. I think it is safe to guess that it will not be found in Raine 2005 either. The societal discussion in the United States about same-sex relationships and church support did not begin until a decade later. This statement appears to be editorial synthesis or original research, however you want to describe it. It would be far more accurate to simply state the historical fact that mainstream religion and/or churches did not support same-sex relationships at that time in U.S. history. Viriditas (talk) 01:16, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The exact wording of the relevant passage on Raine 2005, p. 107 is: "His inability to accept his own sexuality may have occurred for a variety of reasons, but likely his strict religious upbringing might have played a key role ... The Presbyterian Church, like many other churches, has had a difficult time accepting the gay community and the idea of gay marriages." I thought that was sufficient backing for the claim that his church did not support same-sex relationships. I'm open to changing the wording though, what do you suggest? The Call of Cthulhu (talk) 01:50, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The ellipsis doesn't tell me how the statement is supported by the source. For example, the connection between his "strict religious upbringing", "his church" and the position of all Presbyterian churches isn't clear from the source. Is Raine 2005 referring specifically to his church or to all Presbyterian churches in the past or present? The statement "his church did not support same-sex relationships" is anachronistic to me, because it implies that some churches did support same-sex relationships, when at the time, I'm not aware of any mainstream churches that did.  If there is a source that talks directly about his church and his sexuality, great, but I'm not seeing it. Viriditas (talk) 22:44, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think there was anything wrong with the previous wording, but I've adjusted it some to focus on his personal religious upbringing per the cited source. The Call of Cthulhu (talk) 00:05, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Computer savvy and website
The media describes the heaven's Gate group as "computer savvy", and they had a website. There's no mention in the article. 98.164.68.28 (talk) 08:47, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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He did what with a rental car?
The language "failing to return a rental car" is overly soft. The car was STOLEN, despite his repainting of the picture otherwise.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1997/03/30/the-cult-that-left-as-it-lived/1e9baadb-f465-4a7a-8026-0ab7e4822139/?utm_term=.bfbf94592e52

"In 1974, Applewhite and Nettles were thrown into the jail in Brownsville, Tex., charged with stealing a rental car and using stolen credit cards."

https://sawyerhg.wordpress.com/2013/10/21/did-marshall-applewhite-steal-a-car/

"Do told us he and Ti sent a number of letters to the car rental company explaining that they fully intented to pay, though he had no way to pay and were just trusting the next level would help them."

kevinthenerd 05:36, 7 November 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevinthenerd (talk • contribs)

Influx of funds
Where and how and from whom did the receive a large influx of funds? Tyler Basho (talk) 02:07, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Earth Ship
I believe that this reference should be linked to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthship. The facts that the Applewhite-Nettles dwelling was built in New Mexico of tires and lumber, and called "Earth Ship," can hardly have been coincidental. For the bibliography on this building system see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Reynolds_(architect) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.17.179.75 (talk) 21:04, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Visions?
I can't verify the primary source that Applewhite had visions. His writings on his website don't indicate this, and as far as I know, none of the published interviews indicate this either. Mgamernin (talk) 18:15, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Star Trek?
I can't verify the primary source that the cult was a Star Trek cult either. His writings on his website don't indicate this, and as far as I know, none of the published interviews indicate this either. Ex-cult member Sawyer seems to show in his book that references to Star Trek are uncommon as well. (I also don't see anything in his book about the two being aliens, or anything about them being transformed by aliens. So, I'm really confident in that.) Mgamernin (talk) 18:15, 9 March 2022 (UTC)