Talk:Marshall Sylver/Archives/2012

Untitled thread
Hello, Jonny_sicoli here. I'm at one of this guy's performances in the Omni Orlando Hotel. I'm trying to research Marshall Silver, and the info on this page isn't as detailed as I would have hoped it was. Am I the only Wikipedian who's seen him? P.S. The wiki on him seems slightly biased. Cleanup please? Jonny sicoli 00:11, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Louis Theroux did a expose on him in his 'Wild Weekends' series which you can buy on DVD. Buy it and see what the real Marshall Sylver is like...

Please, someone stop this Marshall idiot from turning this entry into an advert! -- 128.239.147.207

Page is currently being vandalized
An anon IP (most likely also ProFromDover) is currently blanking the page and replacing it with PR.

Admittedly, there needs to be some more sourced info on Sylver's life and career, not just his criminal activity. But Sylver's jail sentence for counterfeiting, his indictment on nine counts of fraud, and the lawsuit The Venetian filed against him for not paying his gambling debts -- all of which are properly sourced -- need to be included as well. For precedent on this, see the well documented legal info on the Kevin Trudeau page.

The tone of the PR being placed on the page makes one wonder if Sylver himself is doing the vandalism. --Eleemosynary 07:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Anon blanking/vandalism/reverts coming from Las Vegas
According to geobytes.com, the anon IP address 68.227.9.156 that was blocked last night for revert warring and blanking vandalism is resolving to Las Vegas, which is also where Sylver and his associates work. --Eleemosynary 10:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Statement by
The only vandalism going on here is by an obvious ex-customer with an grief against Marshall who is posting NOTHING but negative posts and is removing any and all neutral information on him. This is OBVIOUSLY one person wishing to air their grievances against Marshall in a public forum. --


 * Nope, never a customer. I saw the Theroux documentary on him, though.  And I wasn't surprised to see a Vegas IP try to whitewash this page.  (Btw, I haven't removed any "neutral" info on Sylver, though I have toned down the PR coming from Vegas.)  Everything I have added to the page about Sylver's extensive criminal history has been appropriately sourced.  Enjoy your RFCU.  --Eleemosynary 02:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Stubbed
I've deleted most of the contests of this biography because there are no suitable sources listed. Please add only material that's based on reliable sources.  Will Beback   talk    01:48, 3 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Done. --Estuarial (talk) 17:35, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for adding material with proper sources. However the article is now so skewed that it violates of NPOV and BLP. While this person may have become known more recently for his business and legal dealings, his original claim to fame appears to have been his stage act. It's unbalanced to focus only on the recent issues. I've moved the material you added to the talk page. We can restore it once we find an appropriate amount of material on the rest of his life. A relatively minor issue is that we can't make the extrapolation that he was parodied on a TV show unless the show, or another sources, says so explicitly. If the Youtube video doesn't have copyright permission we shouldn't link to it.    Will Beback    talk    20:05, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Indictment for theft
As reported in Thestreet.com, Sylver was "the target of a Nevada attorney general probe for allegedly bilking consumers through a 'Millionaire Mentorship Program' he operated out of his mansion. Sylver charged participants $5,000 apiece, with the promise they would double their money through his investment strategies or be entitled to a refund. Not only were many participants denied refunds, the attorney general discovered, but some were even teaching Sylver's Millionaire classes to pay off their own training debts."

On April 14, 2003, a grand jury indicted Sylver on nine felony counts of obtaining money under false pretenses. At Sylver's trial, the jury deadlocked, 10-2, prompting District Judge Valerie Vega to declare a mistrial. Nevada Deputy Attorney General Tracey Brierly pledged to retry the case.

Five of the nine witnesses against Sylver were able to eventually get their money back by winning civil judgments against him in small claims court.

Sale and Possession of counterfeit money
In 1984, Sylver plead guilty to the sale and possession of counterfeit federal reserve notes. He was sentenced to six months imprisonment followed by three years of supervised release.

Lawsuit over gambling debts
The Venetian Hotel in Las Vegas filed a lawsuit against Sylver, alleging he amassed over $200,000 in gambling debts.

Unsatisfactory business rating
Sylver's company, -- "Mind Power, Inc." -- has the lowest possible rating of "F" with the Better Business Bureau of Nevada "due to unresolved complaints." The Bureau has also been unable to confirm if Sylver's company has a valid local business license. }}

Are these ref ok to add to article
Before I post I wanted to make sure that the ref are good ones to use and can be added to the article. Let me know your thoughts.

This is a link to the Review Journal and shows that Mr. Sylver had a show at Harrah's. Will this work under the career section or maybe under an appearances section? http://www.lvrj.com/neon/9780522.html This is a link to the actual Harrah's page: http://www.harrahslasvegas.com/EventsDetail.do?detailName=marshall-sylver-detail&locationCode=LAS

What about YouTube videos that show tv or radio appearances? Is that an ok ref to use? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ6RfZ_Ijqg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SBUuvdCrz0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0MkWfjV4F4&feature=related

Looking forward to your feedback. Neutralviews (talk) 18:56, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd say the LVRJ reference is ok to establish the existence of the show, but I note that it says he only performed one week per month, with guests covering the rest of the month. The Harrah's link is confusing, since it doesn't state whether the show is ongoing or stopped at some point. Without checking the Youtube videos, I'd assume that they'd be considered copyright violations of the original programs, and wouldn't be acceptable to use. Thanks for checking first!--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:09, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Proposed revisions
I represent Marshall Sylver. I'm here to offer revisions and contribute information that will improve the quality and accuracy of his page. I am aware of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines and I will abide by them. All of my edits will be proposed on this talk page, and I respectfully ask for Wikipedians' help.

(1)	The “Indictment for Theft” section is incomplete. While Marshall was sentenced to six months imprisonment and three years of supervised release, the section does not include the fact that he was charged as a youthful offender, that he was unconditionally discharged from probation one year early, and that his conviction was set aside. These additional facts are supported by footnote 15 (USA v. Sylwestrzak, No. 3:83-CR-00866-K, 2000 U.S. Dist. via PACER (casdce June 1, 2004)).

Therefore, I propose revising this section to read:

As a youthful offender, in 1984, Sylver pleaded guilty to the sale and possession of counterfeit federal reserve notes.[14] He was sentenced to six months imprisonment followed by three years of supervised release. He was unconditionally discharged from probation one year early and his conviction was set aside.[15]


 * Where is a reliable source confirming any of this? I'm skeptical of the "youthful offender" bit; Sylver was at least 22 at the time of his sentencing.  --LongLiveReagan (talk) 15:28, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I clearly indicated the reliable source in my original post and I included it as an inline citation in my edit that has been reverted. The reliable source is USA v. Sylwestrzak, No. 3:83-CR-00866-K, 2000 U.S. Dist. via PACER (casdce June 1, 2004), which clearly supports the fact that Sylver was convicted as a youthful offender, he was unconditionally discharged from probation one year early, and his conviction was set aside. It is the same source that is currently used to support the sentencing (footnote 14), so I believe that others must agree that it is reliable.180north (talk) 17:59, 13 June 2011 (UTC)


 * We have sources, including the New York Times, for Sylver's criminal history and convictions. The PACER link gives us nothing; we don't have access to it.  Considering Sylver's "reps" have tried to place Sylver's own press releases as "proof" he was exonerated, you'll forgive us for not taking your word for it. --LongLiveReagan (talk) 19:16, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

(2)	The “Lawsuit Over Gambling Debts” section is incomplete. The Venetian Hotel did file a lawsuit against Marshall in 2001, but this section does not include the fact that the lawsuit was dismissed on May 19, 2004. I propose adding, at the end of this section, the following language, “The Judge dismissed the case, entering an Order of Dismissal on May 19, 2004.” The source for this fact is Venetian Casino Resort LLC v. Sylver, No. 01A437880 via PACER.


 * Again, provide a link to a reliable source. Otherwise, you're asking us to take your word for it.  And if the case was dismissed, why?  Did Sylver pay the debt? --LongLiveReagan (talk) 15:28, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I clearly provided a reliable source and I included it as an inline citation in my edit that has been reverted. The reliable source is Venetian Casino Resort LLC v. Sylver, No. 01A437880 via PACER, which clearly states that the Judge entered an Order of Dismissal on May 19, 2004. If I find well-sourced facts relating to why the case was dismissed, I will be happy to propose additional revisions. However, the fact remains that the case was dismissed.180north (talk) 17:59, 13 June 2011 (UTC)


 * You provided a reference, but no link. And again, we have no access to PACER.  Until you find a reliable source we can see that states the disposition of the cases, the PACER ref is meaningless.  --LongLiveReagan (talk) 19:16, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

(3)	According to the BOLP policy, care must be taken so that section headings are broadly neutral. “Indictment for Theft” is not a broadly neutral heading and it does not accurately describe a section about legal claims that were dismissed, withdrawn, and not retried. I propose revising the heading of this section to read “Mistrial and Dismissal of Charges”


 * Sylver was indeed indicted for theft. That there was a mistrial, based on a hung jury, is stated on the page.  Your heading suggestion could be miscontrued as an attempt to whitewash the bio of a man who has been charged and convicted with several frauds.  Sylver, or "representatives" of him, have been trying to whitewash this page for years.  --LongLiveReagan (talk) 15:28, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * The BOLP policy states that section headings should be broadly neutral and the Manual of Style states that titles of articles and sections should match the relevant content without being too narrow or too broad. The heading "Indictment for Theft" is not a neutral heading nor does it match the content which describes a case that was dismissed and never retried. Perhaps a more accurate section heading would be "Indictment and Dismissal of Charges."180north (talk) 17:59, 13 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Not quite. I'm open to something like "Trial for Fraud," but Sylver and/or his proxies are trying to mislead if they simply claim "Dismissal" in the heading.  Charges were dismissed because the jury was deadlocked; the charges weren't dismissed out of hand. --LongLiveReagan (talk) 19:16, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

In addition, this section includes 6 sentences dedicated to the indictment and only 2 sentences about the Judge declaring a mistrial, dismissing the case, and the prosecutor withdrawing the charges. I propose removing the following paragraph to achieve balance and so as not to mislead the readers.


 * There's nothing misleading about stating the facts of the case, including that the plaintiffs were able to get money back from Sylver in small claims court. It's understandable that Sylver doesn't want that info in the article, as he's peppered the Web with vanity web sites "exonerating" him, but it won't was here. --LongLiveReagan (talk) 20:32, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

As reported in Thestreet.com, Sylver was "the target of a Nevada attorney general probe for allegedly bilking consumers through a 'Millionaire Mentorship Program' he operated out of his mansion. Sylver charged participants $5,000 apiece, with the promise they would double their money through his investment strategies or be entitled to a refund. Not only were many participants denied refunds, the attorney general discovered, but some were even teaching Sylver's Millionaire classes to pay off their own training debts."


 * The article from thestreet.com is a reliably sourced and accurate account of the nature of the charges. Removing it would be ridiculous.  Sylver has filled the internet with fake sites singing his praises, so that a Google search will return only whitewashed information.  He's not going to be able to do that on Wikipedia. --LongLiveReagan (talk) 15:28, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I did not propose deleting all mention of the indictment. However, including the paragraph from thestreet.com violates NPOV by giving undue weight to a legal matter that was dismissed and never retried.180north (talk) 17:59, 13 June 2011 (UTC)


 * It does not. Thestreet.com is a reliable source, as opposed to any source you have provided.  This appears to be yet another attempt by a representative of Sylver to whitewash the page. --LongLiveReagan (talk) 19:16, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

(4)	“Criminal History and Legal Issues” is not a broadly neutral heading and is misleading. As discussed above, the 2003 indictment ended with all claims being dismissed, the 1984 conviction was set aside, and the lawsuit filed by the Venetian was civil (not criminal) in nature and was dismissed. Therefore, I propose revising the heading of this section to read “Legal Issues”.


 * Sylver does have a criminal history, and has been embroiled in legal issues. You have provided no proof of the 1984 conviction or the Venetian lawsuit being dismissed and/or set aside.  --LongLiveReagan (talk) 15:28, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * As previously stated, the reliable source for the fact that the 1984 conviction was set aside is USA v. Sylwestrzak, No. 3:83-CR-00866-K, 2000 U.S. Dist. via PACER (casdce June 1, 2004). The Venetian lawsuit was not criminal -- it was civil -- and the reliable source is Venetian Casino Resort LLC v. Sylver, No. 01A437880 via PACER.180north (talk) 17:59, 13 June 2011 (UTC)


 * See above re: PACER links. Post a reliable source, via Wikipedia's standards, stating the disposition of his convictions.  Otherwise, you're asking us to take Sylver's word for it.  And that ain't happening.--LongLiveReagan (talk) 19:16, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I look forward to your responses. 180north (talk) 21:22, 9 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I also propose the following:


 * (5)	The career section of the bio is incomplete and focuses on what Marshall was doing in the 1990s with little mention of his career since then.


 * I propose adding the following language after the “Television” section:


 * Seminars


 * Sylver is a motivational speaker and business consultant. He was a speaker at the Learning Annex “Wealth Expo” along with Tony Robbins in 2006 [Macomber, Shawn (December 6, 2006). “Straight Shooter”. American Spectator] as well as the First Annual Entrepreneur Success Summit in 2010. [Irons, Mike (May 13, 2010). “Forbes.com Features Chuck Mullaney”, News Around the World Today]. He also hosts the “Turning Point Seminar.” [Luymes, Glenda (March 7, 2010) “Hypnotist Mesmerizes Crowd of Hundreds” The Vancouver Province.]


 * Wikipedia is not a platform for Sylver's self-promotion or press releases. He has made his living primarily as a stage hypnotist and salesman, and that is reflected in the opening paragraph.  --LongLiveReagan (talk) 15:28, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Sylver was a stage hypnotist in the mid 1990s, 2003 and 2007. However, the article does not contain any information about his career since then. My revisions included recent, well-sourced facts about his career.180north (talk) 17:59, 13 June 2011 (UTC)


 * You are a self-stated representative of Sylver and are placing promotional materials on the page. --LongLiveReagan (talk) 19:16, 15 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Books and CDs


 * Sylver wrote a book titled “Passion, Profit & Power,” which was published by Simon & Schuster in 1997, along with audio cassettes by the same name, as part of a subconscious training system. [Passion Profit & Power. Simon & Schuster. 1997. ISBN 9780684825212.] “Passion, Profit & Power” was a bestseller by Berita Book Centre for the week of July 19, 1997.[New York Straits Times, July 19, 1997,http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=gFdIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=PxUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2004,2986681&dq=marshall+sylver&hl=en]


 * Wikipedia is not a platform for Sylver to promote his products. --LongLiveReagan (talk) 15:33, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * It is appropriate for a BOLP to include a book that was written by the subject and published by a well-known publishing house.180north (talk) 17:59, 13 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not a platform for Sylver to promote his products. --LongLiveReagan (talk) 19:16, 15 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Radio and Movies


 * Sylver hosts a radio show titled “Get Rich Radio.” (http://getrichradio.com) He starred in the 2010 movie “Tranced,” which was the first movie intended to hypnotize the audience. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0499608/plotsummary)


 * Wikipedia is not a platform for Sylver to promote his products. --LongLiveReagan (talk) 15:33, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * The radio show and movie are notable, and including one sentence on each does not violate the NPOV.180north (talk) 17:59, 13 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Neither is notable. Both are vanity projects.  No reliable source mentions either the "movie" or the radio show.  --LongLiveReagan (talk) 19:16, 15 June 2011 (UTC)


 * (6) 	So that the lead section accurately summarizes the contents, I propose the following revision:


 * Marshall Sylver, born Marshall Walter Sylwestrzak, is a motivational speaker, business consultant, author, and performance hypnotist who works primarily in Las Vegas, Nevada.


 * "Motivational speaker" is a misleading title for Sylver, as attendance at his "seminars" requires a large upfront free, and the entire seminar -- according to reliable sourced news articles -- is a sales pitch. "Business consultant" is too vague a term, and no reliable source suggests that is Sylver's profession. --LongLiveReagan (talk) 15:33, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * A motivational speaker, according to Wikipedia, is a professional speaker who makes speeches intended to motivate and/or inspire an audience. I provided sourced facts on seminars in which Sylver serves as a motivational speaker. If business consultant is too vague, so is salesman.180north (talk)


 * No reliable source states Sylver is a motivational speaker. (And please don't post a press release stating that; it's not gonna fly.) Sylver is a stage hypnotist and salesman.  For those, we have reliable sources. --LongLiveReagan (talk) 19:21, 15 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you. 180north (talk) 22:00, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Marshall Sylver
Requesting a response to revisions that have been proposed, but have not received any comments. 180north (talk) 22:07, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I recommend that you be bold and just do it, but first I suggest that you become familiar with the principles of the BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. Happy editing! Dolovis (talk) 16:14, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with most of LongLive's responses. Most of the reliably sourced information out there is critical of Sylver and the page should reflect this. -- Daniel  15:44, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Please see my replies to LongLive's responses above.180north (talk) 18:01, 13 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I have replied to them. As you have not given us anything close to what Wikipedia designates a reliable source, your edits should not be made.  Additionally, seeking -- as you did -- to have this page locked immediately after making your edits, was a bad-faith move, but of a piece with 4+ years of Sylver and his "reps" trying to whitewash this page.  --LongLiveReagan (talk) 19:17, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Interesting IP information
I just did a whois IP search on whoever removed my last comment from this page. The IP address is 12.18.176.158. Which resolves to a Hilton Hotel in Seattle. And as it happens, according to this Craigslist ad and other ads, Marshall Sylver just happens to be giving one of his sales pitches today at... the Hilton Seattle Airport & Conference Center! Gee, I wonder if there's a connection.

In a related note, please note that 180north has been blocked as a sockpuppet of several accounts trying to turn this page into an advert for Sylver. I'm more and more convinced Sylver, and not any "reps", is behind this vandalism. Just a heads-up. --LongLiveReagan (talk) 02:43, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Update
LongLiveReagan was recently blocked as a sock puppet. I propose restoring the article to the way it was before that user made his most recent round of revisions on June 15. I also invite other editors to provide feedback. Neutralviews (talk) 17:14, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * You would then be reverting to a version of the article rife with edits made by another user, 180North, who has also been blocked, as a sock of ProFromDover. That wouldn't be very helpful, or neutral.  Better to make sure all info on the page is sourced correctly.  And to not add any further claims unless they can be properly sourced, by Wikipedia's standards. --BozellHammer (talk) 20:01, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

After posting that comment, BozellHammer was blocked as a sock of LongLiveReagan (and Eleemosynary). I’m still hoping to get feedback from editors not connected to LongLiveReagan. Neutralviews (talk) 22:59, 28 June 2011 (UTC)