Talk:Marshalsea/Archive 1

Demolition
The article's stated date (1849) for the "demolition" of the Marshalsea is likely in error.

In the preface to the 1857 edition of Little Dorrit, Charles Dickens himself confirms that "the great block of the former prison" still stood on May 6, 1857 and describes other then-still-standing portions. Also, the article's own external link site states that the prison was "closed in the late [emphasis added] 19th century and demolished sometime afterwards," though this too may be in error, and a substantial wall framing the entrance arch still exists (see modern-day views at "external link" site and here). So the actual demise of the structure itself may have been due simply to over a century of decay and neglect rather than to any specific or definitive destruction, as suggested by the word demolish.

The 1849 date may be the year of its being rendered functionally inoperative as a prison, or when it was "abolished" according to Encyclopedia Britannica. But a website on early English prisons says the prison was "closed" in 1842 — a date which agrees with other sites — and mentions the subsequent sale of the buildings rather than their destruction, referring to 1930s illustrations of a converted building and expressly stating that "some parts survived until the 1970s."

Therefore, the article's reference to "finally demolished in 1849" should be changed to --ceased to serve as a prison in the mid-nineteenth century but survived as a structure, at least in part, well into the twentieth century--. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.192.245.129 (talk) 08:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Appeal
AN APPEAL TO READERS FOR IMAGES OR MAPS OF THE MARSHALSEA.

Would any reader who owns the copyright on images of any part of the Marshalsea (older images in particular), or who has copies of maps (again, old ones in particular), ground plans, or images of prisoners, please leave a note here, or e-mail slimvirgin at gmail dot com, if you'd be willing to release them for use in this article. Many thanks, SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 19:39, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikiproject Prisons
If anyone's interested, I've proposed a new wikiproject for the creation of articles regarding specific prisons here. --Cdogsimmons (talk) 01:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for letting us know, CD. SlimVirgin  talk| edits 18:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Stewards of the Marshalsea
I was curious as to what the designation "Steward of the Marshalsea" meant. I have come across evidence that at least one such Steward was Levett Blackborne, a prominent Lincoln's Inn bencher and grandson of Sir Richard Levett, Lord Mayor of London. Blackborne also served as a Steward of the Palace Court. In his role at the Marshalsea, was Levett a contributory cause to the deplorable conditions therein? Would he have had any influence, or indeed would he even have been familiar with those conditions? (It seems to me that anyone in a 'steward's role' should certainly have been aware of what was going on, if he was doing his job.) In any case, I did want to post something here about it, but I wanted to run it past the Marshalsea experts first. Any advice or observations would be *much* appreciated. Regards,MarmadukePercy (talk) 19:41, 5 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Marmaduke, the steward of the Marshalsea would have been with the Marshalsea court, not the Marshalsea prison &mdash; the prison was set up to service the court &mdash; and it's extremely unlikely he would have known or cared much about conditions for the prisoners. SlimVirgin  talk| edits 19:47, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, okay, that makes sense. Many thanks for clarifying that. Regards,MarmadukePercy (talk) 19:51, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Etymology
We have a dispute about what the etymology section should say regarding the origins of "Marshalsea." I'm hoping other editors might weigh in.

The two versions are:

"1. Marshalsea (historically the same word as marshalcy, 'the office, rank, or position of a marshal,' both deriving from Anglo-French mareschalcie) originally referred to the court described below; it came to be used for a prison also under the control of the Knight Marshal."

and

"2. 'Marshalsea' means the seat or court of a marshal, or keeper. 'Marshal' is derived from the Old Germanic marh ('horse') and scalc ('servant'). It originally meant 'stable keeper,' and came to refer to those presiding over the courts of Medieval Europe. The Old English word 'sea' means 'seat.'"

I'm guessing both are correct in some form, but it's a question of finding accurate wording and the most knowledgeable sources. Any help would be much appreciated. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 16:05, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

"... is the Marshalsea prison and court; in which are confined all persons committed for crimes at sea, as pirates, &cc. and for debt by land. The judges of the court are, the lord steward of the king's houshold; a steward of the court, who must be a barrister at law; and a deputy steward. In all civil actions, tried in this court, both the plaintiff and the defendant must belong to his majesty's houshold. The persons confined in this prison for crimes at sea are tried at the Old Bailey. In the same prison is the Palace court, with a jurisdiction that extends 12 miles round the palace of Westminster, the city of London excepted: and debtors within any part of Westminster, and 12 miles round, may be arrested and carried to this prison for a debt of 40s. Actions for debt are tried in this court every Friday; and there are the same judges as in the Marshalsea-court. But in this court neither plaintiff nor defendant must belong to his majesty's houshold. The buildings are run much to decay: but there is a spacious and convenient court room."
 * They're both right, the court originally came under the jurisdiction of the Knight Marshal, and steward of the king's household. By 1770,
 * doesn't give the derivation, but both the cited definitions fit. Kbthompson (talk) 16:22, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Notes


 * The first sounds much more plausible as the original etymology. But it seems also plausible that there was a long period of time where people believed the second and that this influenced the meaning. --Hans Adler (talk) 16:19, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Good point. The word "Mareschal" had been in wide usage since Anglo-Norman times, when there were various folks who went by that designation, as in William le Mareschal, son-in-law of Strongbow. Eventually that designation evolved into the surname Marshall in Ireland and elsewhere in the British Isles, I believe. So the derivation of Marshalsea, it seems to me, probably does go back to the original Anglo-French word. Just my two cents. MarmadukePercy (talk) 19:18, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The word "marshalsea" definitely did mean "stable" back in the 14th century. For example, "... in 1300, most members of the great household, with the exception of the grooms and pages of the marshalsea (stables), ate within the household ..." From The Great Household in Late Medieval England: A life by C. M. Woolgar, p. 9.


 * This reference to stable from earlier still. More.   SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 19:29, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * This article from JSTOR (English Historical Review) may address this question (can't access the entire text). What it appears to suggest is that one of the duties of medieval sheriffs, or marshalls (mareschals), was to preside over the royal stables, which may be how the terms came to overlap. Just a thought. LIke most linguistic discussions, this is interesting. MarmadukePercy (talk) 20:17, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Very interesting. I found a law dictionary that seems to say "marshalsea" (defined as the court or seat of the marshal) derives from the Latin "marescallia," . Marescallia and marshalsea are also used synonymously here.  SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 20:42, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "marescalcia, marescallia, marescaltia: the right of taking fodder for horses; the office of marshal; the Marshalsea, London; a stable."  SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 20:47, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I am sorry I wasn't clear at all. Actually I have no problems with the stables aspect, and I would even guess that that came first. What I really meant was that the part about the marshall's "sea" (modern spelling see) is very likely (in my non-expert opinion) a folk etymology. (By the way, I think it's interesting that the Dutch equivalent to the gendarmerie is still called the Royal Marechaussee.) --Hans Adler (talk) 22:21, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * PS: Going all the way back to the stables is probably not relevant for this article, so the first derivation alone seems to be sufficient here. --Hans Adler (talk) 22:34, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

layout issues
All the floating elements next to the marshalsea infobox, including those floated left get forced down below the bottom of the infobox. This is why the dickens quote which should appear in "Southwark" (left-aligned) shows up in "Debt in England." Not quite sure how to fix it; floating issues are pretty rough and since we're dealing with a bunch of disparate templates and css classes it gets pretty ugly. KellenT 12:18, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for pointing this out &mdash; I couldn't see it on my browser. I've removed the tag until we can work out how to fix it. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 23:35, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

London
This is a problem that constantly comes up with London history articles; is it misleading to describe it as "in London", as the lead currently does, instead of some formulation like "in what is now part of London"? Southwark at this point was a town in Surrey that happened to be across the Thames from London (and the Corporation of London and City of Westminster in this period bitterly opposed any moves to include Southwark, with its slum tenements, crumbling infrastructure and social problems, in any Greater London). The Metropolitan Board of Works, the first official piece of cross-river cooperation (in the very limited field of large-scale infrastructure projects) wasn't introduced until 1855, while Southwark was only transferred from Surrey to the new County of London in 1889, and the modern structure of a single city split into boroughs was only introduced with the London Government Act 1899 – and all three dates are after the Marshalsea (and its close cousin The Clink) closed; in the context of the time, describing Southwark as part of London is equivalent to describing Gateshead as a part of Newcastle or Gatineau as part of Ottawa. – iride  scent  11:22, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry, Iridescent, I just saw this. Thanks for pointing it out. I've changed it to: "The Marshalsea was a prison near London Bridge on the south bank of the River Thames in Southwark, then part of the county of Surrey, now part of London. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 00:21, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Copy edit
I was planning to do a copy edit today, but we're getting lots of edit conflicts, and edits are getting lost or being undone. Would it be all right if I were to put the in-use tag on it to make a final check? SlimVirgin talk| contribs 00:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * On second thoughts, I think I'll wait till tomorrow now, so cancel the above. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 00:25, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler's detailed FAC comments
Hi SlimVirgin, Here are my detailed comments on the article's prose. They cover about a third of the article. I will add the remaining comments tomorrow.


 * Lead


 * 1. political figures and intellectuals accused of sedition or some other kind of inappropriate behaviour, and&mdash;most famously&mdash;London's debtors,
 * 1a. Since the second sentence is long, I wonder if you will consider, "political figures and intellectuals accused of sedition or other inappropriate behaviour, and&mdash;most famously&mdash;London's debtors, ..."


 * 2. Run privately for profit, as were all prisons in England until the 19th century, the Marshalsea looked like an Oxbridge college and functioned largely as an extortion racket.
 * 2a. This is not very informative. Do you mean the prison had the outward appearance (by way of architecture etc.) of an Oxbridge college building?  Or do you mean it functioned like an Oxbridge college by providing special privileges for the wealthy?  Whatever is intended, it is better to be explicit; otherwise, such information goes wasted in an encyclopedia article.


 * 3. Everyone else was crammed into one of nine small rooms with dozens of others, possibly for decades for the most modest of debts. (Logical flaw of sorts here, since the dozens of others are everyone else.)
 * 3a. Everyone else was crammed into one of nine small rooms with dozens sharing each room, possibly for decades for the most modest of debts


 * 4. The prison became known around the world during the 19th century through the writings of the English novelist Charles Dickens, whose father was sent there in 1824 for a debt of £40 (need past perfect)
 * 4a. The prison became known around the world during the 19th century through the writings of the English novelist Charles Dickens, whose father had been sent there in 1824 for a debt of £40


 * 5. Forced to leave school at the age of 12 for a job in a factory, Dickens based several of his fictional characters on this experience, most notably Little Dorrit, whose father, like his own, was a Marshalsea debtor. ("this experience" is slightly vague, and "most notably," slightly ambiguous since it could apply to "experience.")
 * 5a. Forced to leave school at the age of 12 for a job in a factory, Dickens based several of his fictional characters on his youthful experience; most notable among these characters is Little Dorrit, whose father, like Dickens's own, is a Marshalsea debtor. (changing to present tense for the fictional character.)


 * 6. All that is left of it now is a long brick wall separating an unkempt public garden from a local history library, the existence of what Dickens called "the crowding ghosts of many miserable years" marked only by a plaque from the local council. "It is gone now," he wrote, "and the world is none the worse without it."
 * 6a. "Still surviving is a long brick wall separating an unkempt public garden from a local history library, the "crowding ghosts" of Dickens's "many miserable years" marked only by a plaque from the local council. "It is gone now," he wrote, "and the world is none the worse for it."


 * Prisoners in England:


 * 7. When that stopped, they started being held instead in disused ships called hulks moored in the Thames, and at Plymouth and Portsmouth, with the intention that they would be transported somewhere at some point.
 * 7a. (I think of "start" and "stop" as sudden events. The process, though, was likely gradual.  Also, I think of "purpose" (or so we were taught way back when) as the reason behind the "intention."  Do you think it might be more correct to say, "As that ceased (or abated), they began being held instead in disused ships  called hulks moored in the Thames, and at Plymouth and Portsmouth, for the eventual purpose of being transported somewhere else."


 * 8. According to The National Archives at Kew, the establishment of these hulks marked the first involvement of central government in Britain in the administration of prisons.
 * 8a. But you didn't tell us anything earlier about the central government having a hand in maintaining these ships.
 * 8b. Archives as the overall collection. The statement about the "first involvement" exists in some document in the archives.  If so, it might be better to say, "According to the XXX papers in The National Archives at Kew, ...;" sounds less vague to me.


 * 9. and run for profit almost entirely without regulation by private individuals who purchased the right to manage and make money from them
 * 9a. There is some redundancy here (profit, make money) and some run-on momentum. Do you think saying, "and run almost entirely without regulation by private individuals who had purchased the right to manage and make money from them" might sound better?


 * 10. anyone unfortunate enough to have no money for food, and no one to bring it in for him, simply died of starvation.
 * 10a. anyone unfortunate enough to have no money for food and no one to bring it in, simply died of starvation.


 * 11. In the Bishop of Ely's prison, prisoners unable to pay for "easement of irons" were chained to the floor on their backs, with a spiked collar round the neck and heavy iron bars over the legs, until they somehow found the money.
 * 11a. In the Bishop of Ely's prison, prisoners unable to pay for "easement of irons" were chained to the floor on their backs, with a spiked collar round the neck and heavy iron bars over the legs, until they somehow procured the money. (Don't ask me why I prefer "procure."  I suppose I think it's more encyclopedic and more compatible with the other words of the sentence.  I'll grant you, "found" is more sardonic.  PS I hope the prison was not in the cellar of the Cathedral.)


 * Marshalsea--two locations


 * 12. The Marshalsea occupied two buildings on what is now Borough High Street, the first from the beginning of the 14th century, and possibly earlier, at what would now be 161 Borough High Street, between King Street and Mermaid Court. In 1799, the government reported that the prison had fallen into a state of decay,
 * 12a. For the reader, or rather for this reader, the flow of the appositive ("the first from ...") is lost when you go off into the 1799 report. Also, there is a bit too much repetition of "Borough High Street." Could we not say, "The Marshalsea occupied two buildings on what is now Borough High Street, the first from the beginning of the 14th century, and possibly earlier, at what would now be number 161, between King Street and Mermaid Court, and the second, 130 yards (119 m) south, at what is now 211 Borough High Street, from 1811 until 1849."  You could then suitably amend the remaining sentences in the paragraph.


 * 13. Trey Philpotts writes that every detail about the Marshalsea in Little Dorrit has a referent to the real Marshalsea of the 1820s.
 * 13a. Trey Philpotts writes that every detail about the Marshalsea in Little Dorrit has a referent in the real Marshalsea of the 1820s. (It might be a good idea to wikilink "referent," since many people will likely not know the word.)


 * 14. Dickens rarely made mistakes and didn't exaggerate; if anything, he downplayed the licentiousness of Marshalsea life, perhaps to protect Victorian sensibilities. (The rhythm is off here.)
 * 14a. How about, "Dickens rarely made mistakes or exaggerated; if anything, he downplayed the licentiousness of Marshalsea life, perhaps to protect Victorian sensibilities." or,
 * 14b. "Dickens, who rarely made mistakes or exaggerated, downplayed&mdash;if anything&mdash;the licentiousness of Marshalsea life, perhaps to protect Victorian sensibilities."


 * 15. Philpotts writes (pp. 115–116) that the only factual discrepancy he can find between the real and fictional worlds in Dickens, regarding the Marshalsea, is that Dickens locates the chandler's shop in the tap room, which Philpotts believes may not be correct.
 * 15a. Do we need the last qualification? Can we say, "Philpotts writes (pp. 115–116) that the only likely factual discrepancy he can find between the real and fictional worlds in Dickens, regarding the Marshalsea, is that Dickens locates the chandler's shop in the tap room."  (It would be great if Philpotts told us where is really/likely was.)

More soon. Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  01:44, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

More comments
Here are the remaining comments (up to the end of Dickens's section):


 * Debt in England

Sorry this is out of (section) order.


 * 16. Before the Bankruptcy Act of 1869 abolished debtors' prisons, men and women in England were routinely imprisoned for debt at the pleasure of their creditors, sometimes for decades. They would often take their families with them. The only alternative for the women and children was the shame of uncertain charity outside the jail, so entire communities sprang up inside the debtors' prisons, with children born and raised there.
 * 16a. Assumes that families were women and children (after is says "men and women"). Also, doesn't say clearly that the prisoners took their families into the prison (or the prison compound).  How about, "They would often take their families into the prison with them. The only alternative for the families, mostly women and children, was the shame of uncertain charity outside the jail, so entire communities sprang up inside the debtors' prisons ...?"


 * 17. Other European countries had legislation limiting imprisonment for debt to one year, but debtors in England were imprisoned until their creditors were satisfied, however long that took ...
 * 17a. Other European countries had legislation limiting imprisonment for debt to one year, but debtors in England stayed imprisoned until their creditors were satisfied, however long that took ... (we already know they were imprisoned; stayed more emphatic.)


 * 18. Because prisons were privately administered, whole economies were created ... keeping their breadwinner in prison, the debts accumulating to the point where there was no realistic prospect of release. (Nice!)


 * 19. Under the Insolvent Debtors Act 1813, debtors could request release after 14 days in jail by taking an oath that their assets did not exceed £20, but if any of their creditors objected, they had to stay inside. ("stay inside" is ambiguous; semi-colon better before "but.")
 * 19a. Under the Insolvent Debtors Act 1813, debtors could request release after 14 days in jail by taking an oath that their assets did not exceed £20; but if any of their creditors objected, they stayed imprisoned ...)


 * First Marshalsea


 * 20. when Agnes, wife of Walter de Westhale, surrendered herself there for having committed "trespass by force and arms" on Richard le Chaucer and his wife, Mary, relatives of the writer Geoffrey Chaucer, by helping her daughter, Joan, marry their son, John, who was only 12 years old and did not have their consent (run-on momentum which compromises clarity)
 * 20a. when Agnes, wife of Walter de Westhale, surrendered herself there for having committed "trespass by force and arms" on Richard le Chaucer and his wife, Mary, relatives of the writer Geoffrey Chaucer; the trespass consisted of help she rendered her daughter Joan in marrying the Chaucer's son, John, who was only 12 years old and did not have parental consent


 * 21. Most of the first Marshalsea, as with the second, was taken up by debtors; (with makes it less precise).
 * 21a. Most of the first Marshalsea, as well the second (or, if that's too old fashioned, "and the second as well"), was taken up by debtors;
 * 21b. Most of the first Marshalsea, equally the second (or, no less the second), was taken up by debtors;


 * 22. The prison was technically under the control of the Knight Marshal, but it was let out to private
 * 22a. The prison was technically under the control of the Knight Marshal, but (was) let out to private


 * Master's side:


 * 23. There was a turreted lodge at the entrance, as with the older Oxbridge colleges,
 * 23a. There was a turreted lodge at the entrance, in the style (or fashion) of the older Oxbridge colleges, ...


 * 24. It had been divided in two by a long, narrow wall, so that prisoners from the Common Side could spend their daylight hours there without being seen by those on the Master's Side, who preferred not to be distressed by the sight of abject poverty, especially when they might themselves be plunged into it at any moment. (Funny! Here, the simple past is better, since "had been" makes the reader think that it no longer was.)
 * 24a. It was divided in two by a long, narrow wall, ...


 * 25. Although legislation prohibited jailors from having a pecuniary interest in the sale of alcohol within their prisons, it was another rule that was completely ignored.
 * 25a. Although legislation prohibited jailors from having a pecuniary interest in the sale of alcohol within their prisons, they completely ignored the rule in practice.


 * 26. one Sunday, 600 pots of beer were brought into the Marshalsea from a public house, because the prisoners didn't like the beer that was available in the taproom
 * 26a. one Sunday, 600 pots of beer were brought into the Marshalsea from a public house, all because the prisoners didn't like the beer that was available in the taproom


 * 27. Rioting and drunkenness were, in fact, the only ways to get the prisoners to "disregard the confinement", he wrote. ("the only ways to get" sounds like the wardens wanted the prisoners to get drunk and riot. Of course, this is from a quote, but I'm wondering if what is mean is:
 * 27a Rioting and drunkenness were, in fact, the only options available to the prisoners to "disregard the confinement", he wrote.


 * Common side:


 * 28. It was enough that they knew it existed to keep the rental money, legal fees, and other gratuities flowing from the prisoner's families, fees that anywhere else would have seen them living in the lap of luxury, but which in the Marshalsea could be trusted merely to stave off disease and starvation. (Nice!)
 * 28a. It was enough that the prisoners knew it existed to keep the rental money, legal fees, and other gratuities flowing from their families ...


 * 29. What often finished them off was being forced to lie in the Strong Room, a windowless shed near the main sewer, next to human carcasses awaiting burial, of which there was a plentiful supply
 * 29a. Although I like the delayed "plentiful supply," I feel in an encyclopedia, a more straightforward description might be better: "What often dealt the final blow was being forced to lie in the Strong Room, a windowless shed near the main sewer and next to an ever plentiful supply of human carcasses awaiting burial.


 * 1729 Gaols Committee

(Superb! The descriptions of the three tiers were harrowing.)


 * Notable prisoners


 * 30. Bishop Bonner, the last Roman Catholic Bishop of London, was imprisoned there in 1559 until his death 10 years later, supposedly for his own safety. ("supposedly ..." at the end is ambiguous)
 * 30a. Bishop Bonner, the last Roman Catholic Bishop of London, was imprisoned there, purportedly for his own safety, from 1559 until his death 10 years later.


 * 31. In correspondence with the Queen's advisers regarding Marshalsea prisoners he suspected of involvement in a plot to kill her&mdash;the so-called Ridolfi plot&mdash;Herle reveals an efficient network within the ... ("In correspondence ..." makes it hard for the reader to parse.)
 * 31a. Writing to the Queen's advisers regarding Marshalsea prisoners he suspected of involvement in a plot to kill her&mdash;the so-called Ridolfi plot&mdash;Herle revealed an efficient network within the ...


 * 32. Nicholas Udall, vicar of Braintree and headmaster of Eton, ... suggests the episode did his name no lasting harm.  :)

All the best, Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  13:55, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * A couple of comments on the comments, principally relating to points 7 and 8. The transportation of prisoners to the American colonies did stop suddenly - prompted by their independence.  I recall reading somewhere (don't remember where offhand), that British authorities tried to send one lot over after independence, and surprisingly enough, they were turned away post-haste.  Regarding the attribution to The National Archives, the source cited is a research guide created to guide new users of the archives to relevant sources, rather than being taken directly from archival sources.  David Underdown (talk) 09:04, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Congratulations
Well deserved. I learned that when they threw you in the clink they really threw you in The Clink, terrific and timely article. Well done...Modernist (talk) 03:11, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you. :) SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 20:08, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * More congrats!
 * What "scintillating prose"! Well done!
 * Amandajm (talk) 15:35, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

"Winter of 1849" is ambiguous
"Winter of 1849" is ambiguous. Which is intended here: 1848-49 or 1849-50? -- B.D.Mills  (T, C) 03:52, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

St George's Gardens
The remaining wall is not next to an unkempt public garden as stated. The park is in a well maintained condition as anyone can see. 89.168.72.144 (talk) 07:25, 3 February 2010 (UTC) Tony S The photograph at te bottom of the article shows the Garden is well-stocked and kept. 89.168.72.144 (talk) 08:09, 3 February 2010 (UTC) Tony S

Bravo
I have really enjoyed reading this article - congratulations and thankyou to everyone concerned. Having seen the recent BBC adaptation of Little Dorrit I was interested in Marshalsea: thanks for filling me in.86.150.96.8 (talk) 08:13, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I concur - It's a great article. Well done all. Spanglej (talk) 11:17, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed! I have been interested in the Marshalsea ever since I read Little Dorrit, and have often stood and admired the old wall that remains there, just off Borough High Street, facing the church of St George. I have plenty of modern photographs that I have taken, but there doesn't appear to be any need for any more on this article. Congratulations to all those that have worked hard on it! Orphan Wiki  12:38, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Kudos all around. Nice piece. MarmadukePercy (talk) 12:39, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Dimensions of rooms
One size of room given for the second Marshalsea is '10.5 feet square (0.95m2)'. Could this be clarified? Is the room 10.5 feet by 10.5 feet? If so this equates to 110.25 square feet, or 10.24 square metres (i.e. 10.24m2). ObviousOldy (talk) 09:24, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * 10.5 feet square means a room 10.5 feet on each side, or 110.25 square feet. SlimVirgin  TALK  contribs 14:56, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

MoS issues in article

 * Deadlinks
 * Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), there should be a non-breaking space -  between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 5 feet, use 5 feet , which when you are editing the page, should look like: 5 feet
 * Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), when doing conversions, please use standard abbreviations: for example, miles -> mi, kilometers squared -> km2, and pounds -> lb.[?]
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 * Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally should not repeat the title of the article. For example, if the article was Ferdinand Magellan, instead of using the heading ==Magellan's journey==, use ==Journey==.[?]
 * Per WP:WIAFA, this article's table of contents (ToC) may be too long – consider shrinking it down by merging short sections or using a proper system of daughter pages as per Wikipedia:Summary style
 * There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view. Apparently might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations.
 * Please make the spelling of English words consistent with either American or British spelling, depending upon the subject of the article. Examples include: behaviour (B) (American: behavior), mustache (A) (British: moustache), offence (B) (American: offense), recognize (A) (British: recognise), installment (A) (British: instalment), gray (A) (British: grey).
 * The script has spotted the following contractions: don't, if these are outside of quotations, they should be expanded. — GabeMc (talk) 20:15, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Confusions between Names of the Southwark gaols
Excellent article; however, the Note on the names of the Southwark gaols does not clarify the confusions - I'll attempt to do so here and the author can revise his Note.

"There is some confusion regarding the names of the prisons in Southwark in the 18th century. Charles Knight (1841, p. 325) writes that there were five prisons in 1796: the Marshalsea, Clink, King's Bench Prison, Horsemonger Lane Gaol, and the Borough Compter. Trey Philpotts also writes that there were five, but lists them as the Marshalsea, Clink, King's Bench Prison, the White Lion, and the Borough Compter. (2003, p. 90). This article uses Philpotts's list"

In 1796 the five gaols in the area were 1) The Clink (not in the Borough of Southwark but in the Clink Liberty). 2) the Marshalsea (at first site) 3) The King's Bench 4) The Surrey County at Horsemonger Lane. 5) Borough Compter at Tooley Street.

However Philpotts lists the prisons at an earlier date; 1) Clink 2) Marshalsea 3) King's Bench 4) Borough Compter 5) The Surrey County at 'the White Lion' which was often called the Borough Gaol but this was shorthand for 'County Gaol at the Borough' (it moved to new premises at Horsemonger Lane and the White Lion became the second site for the Marshalsea.) Tony S 85.210.9.203 (talk) 18:13, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Outlaws
Hi Jennifer, I'm going to remove this from the lead, because this is a featured article, and it's not clear what you mean by " outlaws seeking a special pardon". Could you give an example of the kind of Marshalsea prisoner (or offence or special pardon) you have in mind, along with a source? (Also, we would have to judge whether it's something that's worth including in the lead, which is a separate issue.) Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 19:29, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Looking again at the source you used, I think it was referring to the Marshalsea Court. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:07, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

This sounds logical. Given you are a lawyer familiar with modern writs of outlawry, I would yield to your wisdom and experience. Jennifer2013 (talk) 14:40, 4 August 2012 (UTC)