Talk:Martin Luther and antisemitism/Archive 4

Is this WP:OR?
This block of text was added by a new user [] . It seems to be WP:OR. -Doright 17:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Not so much OR as unattributed opinion/editorial. I've removed it to here Certainly the vein that Martin Luther took on establishing his critique of the Jewish religion was never meant to cause a holocaust, but much impassioned rhetoric was issued all his life long in the ripping away of Christianity from the Catholic church and out of the hands of Rome, not to destroy races or peoples but to establish mankind as a whole in being able to read and be taught the truth of the New Testament. Just as Jesus before him denounced the Jews in that he attacked the religion and the faith in their blindness towards His coming and the prophetic fulfillment of God's vision for man's redemption, Luther's attack and impassioned writing was done in the context of a time and place in history where such impassioned writing and speech was necessary to the Christian faith to shake the church as a whole and wake up the strong iron machine that was the Catholic church and the Papacy in Rome.

To make matters worse, in Luther's lifetime the Jewish faith was gaining strength and opponents were arising of the Christian faith who threatened in Luther's eyes to overturn not just reformation of the church, but Christianity as a whole, including the Catholic church. Luther's words and writings were in the context of an advertising campaign thrown into the media with force with the hopes that exaggeration and uniqueness would catch the attention of everyone it came across with such force and finality that to oppose it would be difficult if not impossible.

To make Martin Luther the cause of the Nazi holocaust is much alike making the Titanic the cause of icebergs. Martin Luther lived four hundred years before the twisted evil genius of Adolph Hitler and any use of Martin Luther's writings in the words of the Nazi party were much akin to the old Russian communist party quoting American newspapers...out of context and with additions and exaggerations as to suit the purposes of the propaganda.

In an aside, it is quite probable that the Lutheran Church of Germany in the Nazi party years had as much fear of Hitler as the people themselves in the German nation, who also must have felt powerless to change what they saw happening in their very country. To have stood against Hitler in the war years in speech and policy was almost certainly to join the fate of the Jews who suffered the death camps of the madman who was Adolph Hitler. for discussion, if any, and fixed a spelling error. - Nunh-huh 19:24, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Merge
I've merged the contents of On the Jews and their Lies in here; or we can do it the other way round if people prefer. We don't need two articles, as they were largely repetitive. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:32, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Again, you have acted unilaterally, Slim. User Doright was quite certain that we needed two articles, and I believe that Jayg supported the idea as well. Then again, maybe I'm mistaken. Shouldn't you simply file and deletion request on it and allow them to chime in.


 * Personally, I can see it go either way. On the one hand, there's no need for repetitive material and I do not believe the work is a major one, given that it was more or less ignored by all but the Nazis. So I can see it go. On the other hand, there is a lot of interest in this particular diatribe because of its vindictive and poisonous rhetoric. If someone searches for it, shouldn't they have a detailed discussion of its contents? If yes, the duplicative material can be moved to the OTJATL article and summary presented here. Whichever way, I think editors that have worked on these and others in the community should weigh in before a delete. --CTS Wyneken (talk) 14:22, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Quote from Last Sermon
Slim, you've placed an extended English quote from a German or Latin source. Is this your translation or is this from another reliable source? If the latter, please cite it, not the German/Latin --CTS Wyneken (talk) 14:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

POV Quotation
This quotation omits an important bit of advice that Luther gives in this document: "Noch wollen wir die christliche Liebe an ihnen üben, und für sie bitten, daß sie sich bekehren, den HErrn annehmen, den sie vor uns billig ehren sollten". As it stands it is a slanted.--Drboisclair 04:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The appendix to Luther's Last Sermon in the modern German of the St. Louis edition
Saint Louis Edition of Luther's Works, vol. 12, col. 1264-1267: "Eine Vermahnung wider die Juden. 1. Nachdem ich nun eine Zeitlang allhier gewesen und euch gepredigt habe, auch nun anheim muß und vielleicht euch nicht mehr predigen möchte, so will ich euch hiermit gesegnen und gebeten haben, daß ihr fleißig bei dem Wort bleibet, das euch eure Prediger und Pfarrherr von der Gnade GOttes getreulich lehren, und euch auch gewöhnet zum Beten, daß euch GOtt vor allen Weisen und Klüglingen behüten wolle, so die Lehre des Evangelii verachten; denn sie oft viel Schaden gethan und noch thun möchten. 2. Ueber andere habt ihr auch noch die Juden im Lande, die da großen Schaden thun. Nun wollen wir christlich mit ihnen handeln, und bieten ihnen den christlichen Glauben an, daß sie den Messiam wollen annehmen, der doch ihr Vetter ist und von ihrem Fleisch und Blut geboren, und rechter Abrahams Same, deß sie sich rühmen; wiewohl ich Sorge trage, das jüdische Blut sei nunmehr wässerig und wild worden. Das sollt ihr ihnen erstlich anbieten, daß sie sich zu dem Messia bekehren wollen und sich taufen lassen, daß man sehe, daß es ihnen ein Ernst sei; wo nicht, so wollen wir sie nicht leiden. Denn Christus gebietet uns, daß wir uns sollen taufen lassen und an ihn glauben. Ob wir nun gleich so stark nicht glauben können, wie wir wohl sollten, so trägt doch GOtt Gedult mit uns. 3. Nun ists mit den Juden also gethan, daß sie unsern HErrn JEsum Christum nur täglich lästern und schänden. Dieweil sie das thun und wir wissens, so sollen wir es nicht leiden. Denn soll ich den bei mir leiden, der meinen HErrn Christum schändet, lästert und verflucht, so mache ich mich fremder Sünden theilhaftig, so ich doch an meinen eigenen Sünden genug habe. Darum sollt ihr Herren sie nicht leiden, sondern sie wegtreiben. Wo sie sich aber bekehren, ihren Wucher lassen und Christum annehmen, so wollen wir sie gern als unsere Brüder halten. 4. Anders wird nicht daraus, denn sie machens zu groß. Sie find unsere öffentlichen Feinde, hören nicht auf, unsern HErrn Christum zu lästern, heißen die Jungfrau Maria eine Hure, Christum ein Hurenkind, uns heißen sie Wechselbälge oder Mahlkälber, und wenn sie uns könnten alle tödten, so thäten sie es gerne. Und thuns auch oft, sonderlich die sich für Aerzte ausgeben, ob sie gleich je zu Zeiten helfen; denn der Teufel hilfts doch zuletzt versiegeln. So können sie die Arznei auch, so man im Wälschland kann, da man einem ein Gift beibringt, davon er in einer Stunde, in einem Monat, in einem Jahr, ja, in zehn oder zwanzig Jahren sterben muß. Die Kunst können sie. 5. Darum seid unverworren mit ihnen, als mit denen, die da nicht anderes bei euch thun, denn daß sie unsern lieben HErrn JEsum Christum greulich lästern, stehen uns nach Leib, Leben Ehre und Gut. Noch wollen wir die christliche Liebe an ihnen üben, und für sie bitten, daß sie sich bekehren, den HErrn annehmen, den sie vor uns billig ehren sollten. Welcher solches nicht thun will, da setze es in keinen Zweifel, daß er ein verböster Jude ist, der nicht ablassen wird, Christum zu lästern, dich auszusaugen und (wo er kann) zu tödten. 6. Darum bitte ich, wollet euch fremder Sünde nicht theilhaftig machen, ihr habt genugsam GOtt zu bitten, daß er euch gnädig sei und euer Regiment erhalte; wie ich noch täglich bete, und tücke (ducke) mich unter den Schirm des Sohnes GOttes, den halte und ehre ich für meinen HErrn, zu dem muß ich laufen und fliehen, wo mich der Teufel, die Sünde oder ander Unglück anficht; denn er ist mein Schirm, soweit Himmel und Erde ist, und meine Gluckhenne, darunter ich krieche vor GOttes Zorn. Darum kann ich mit den verstockten Lästerern und Schändern dieses lieben Heilandes keine Gemeinschaft noch Geduld haben. 7. Das hab ich als ein Landskind euch zur Warnung wollen sagen zur Letzte, daß ihr euch fremder Sünde nicht theilhaftig macht; denn ich meine es ja gut und treulich, beide mit den Herren und Unterthanen. Wollen sich die Juden zu uns bekehren, und von ihrer Lästerung, und was sie uns sonst gethan haben, aufhören, so wollen wir es ihnen gerne vergeben; wo aber nicht, so sollen wir sie auch bei uns nicht dulden noch leiden."--Drboisclair 05:13, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I would guess, Slim, that you could check the accuracy of the translation of that piece from here. Here it is in toto.--Drboisclair 05:15, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The merge
Someone has e-mailed me objecting to the merge of On the Jews and their Lies into this article.

I don't mind whether the main article is under this title, or whether it's On the Jews and their Lies, but I don't really see the point of having two, as the contents were very similar.

Any thoughts? SlimVirgin (talk) 21:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I would argue that the current title is more appropriate as it discusses context that is not associated specifically with the book. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:36, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I would suggest that SlimVirgin recuse herself from a topic on which she has such strong emotions. The lack of WP:AGF, personal attacks and trolling she engaged in on Martin Luther was unforgiveable. 83.171.161.243 21:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Being this your one and only contribution under that IP, address, we shall take your comment with a substantial cum grano salis, shall we?. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:50, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Take it with a bucket of salt, if you like. If you think I'm going to ID myself and let Slim ban me, guess again 61.210.16.105 21:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * An involved admin cannot use his/her admin privileges in content disputes. If you are using a proxy, please note that these will be blocked on sight. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Jossi. The same user emailed me and I am sympathetic to his position on this, but I think a redirect to this article, and no diminution in content from the "On the Jews" article, makes the most sense.--Mantanmoreland 22:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

We certainly would not kill the Mein Kampf article and should no more kill the On the Jews and their Lies (OTJATL) article. They (i.e., the books) are both significant entities meeting all criteria for a wiki article in their own right and do merit their own articles.

The significance of the OTJATL article goes well beyond the subject of Martin Luther. For example, Hitler and Kristallnacht, etc may have been influenced by OTJATL. And, I do consider Luther's antisemitism to be worthy of an article. However, the title, "Martin Luther and the Jews" is a euphemistic white-washed title for the original "Martin Luther and Antisemitism." Yet, I don't find a wiki article titled "Adolph Hitler and the Jews" nor "Adolph Hitler and Antisemitism." So, under the assumption that Hitler has received much more attention by some of the better wiki editors, that makes me wonder about the consistency of having a "Martin Luther and xxxxxxx" article. Also the "Martin Luther and xxxxx" tends to be more of a POV venue than does OTJATL.

So bottom line. My view is OTJATL must exist as a separate article. I am not as confident regarding "Martin Luther and the Jews" which was originally written to minimize the presence of Antisemitism on the Martin Luther page itself.

Please restore the OTJATL article before too much inertia manifests. It is certainly also belongs in Category:Antisemitic publications. -Doright 22:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Either way would be OK, Doright. If we name the article by the name of the book, the article can be structured differently, so has to put the book into the context of Luther's other anti-Jew literature rather than the other way around. But the first question is: do we need one article or several? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I hate to be a waffler on this but I think Doright has a point. Perhaps the article can be titled "On the Jews and Their Lies" and the rest of the material can be built around it? But I don't think more than one article is necessary.--Mantanmoreland 22:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure, we can do that. Let's wait for some other comments, and if there are no objections I will effectuate the move. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) I'm perfectly willing to redo the merge (or for someone else to do it) so that On the Jews is the title; we can examine Luther's other statements related to the Jews in the context of that treatise. Does anyone disagree with that? SlimVirgin (talk) 22:43, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that makes sense, and reducing it to one article would remove duplicative content. --Mantanmoreland 23:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * You can do the honors, SM. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * SM?--Mantanmoreland 23:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think he meant S&M. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
 * :) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:42, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Move of material from On the Jews and Their Lies
The debate on whether to have a general article like this or to put this material in the On the Jews and Their Lies was hashed out among a number of editors 18 months ago, cf On the Jews talk page and its archives. I am not opposed to having this separate article because then one could have the material from Luther's other anti-Jewish writings here rather than in the ''On the Jews.--Drboisclair (talk) 12:52, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The subtitle "Anitsemitic works"
In the interest of making this article NPOV I would urge that we relabel this section "Anti-Jewish Works." This would be more NPOV.--Drboisclair (talk) 18:12, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The subtitle "Influence on modern antisemitism"
The sentence below fails to cite where its quotation came from:

On December 17, 1941, seven Lutheran regional church confederations issued a statement agreeing with the policy of forcing Jews to wear the yellow badge, "since after his bitter experience Luther had already suggested preventive measures against the Jews and their expulsion from German territory."

Who did the editing on this, and can we get them to cite the quote?

QuietPaths (talk) 01:58, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * By 1941, the Nazis had replaced many Lutheran bishops and other hierarchy with their own kind in order to control the Land Churches. Hitler had already merged the land-churches with the Reformed, making them Union rather than Lutheran, except of course in those locations where there were no Reformed. Only the university in Erlangen was not controlled by the Nazis, and they protected from the Nazis a considerable number of Lutheran Jewish students.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 19:23, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

jewish lies...

luther was righ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.101.247.190 (talk) 14:21, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Second sentence
"Note that all dictionaries define Semite as an Arab not a "jew", and 150,000 top Nazis and German soldiers were non-Semitic Khazar Ashkenazi jews[1], including Rothschild banking heir Adolf Hitler Schicklgruber"

1st - "All dictionaries"? Really? Just read the article on Semite, linked to this word. Antisemitism is a coined and wide-spread term for hatred towards jews, read also the wiki article on it.

2nd - linked book doesn't say Hitler was the heir of Rothschild. From the article
 * "The Wartime Report briefly mentions some claims that a Rothschild fathered Alois Hitler (Adolf's father, who was illegitimate) when Hitler's paternal grandmother, Maria Schicklgruber, was working as a house servant in Vienna, but concludes "[f]rom a purely scientific point of view ... it is sounder not to base our reconstruction on such slim evidence but to seek firmer foundations.""

However Hitler's Mother Was a Jew, making him a Jew Himself, since jewdaism is tyransmited by mothers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.255.34.240 (talk) 13:34, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Futher, this article doesn't discuss "anthisemitic" as a term, but antisemitism in Luther's works. If someone thinks we need this sentence anywhere it should be in Antisemitism Alendit (talk) 20:24, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

IP 70.238.155.108
I would like to confirm my changes by noting that I made the changes today under the IP address listed above.--Drboisclair (talk) 17:08, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

RfC
An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:58, 22 September 2012 (UTC)