Talk:Martin Rennie (football manager)

Point of View
Agree with the previous user and it seems to have gotten worse with the Whitecaps section. Nine points from 1st place? Why not say 5th? Citing an online poll that probably had a sample size of 50? - Anon

Point of View
Several parts of this article reads like a fluff piece. One95 (talk) 20:57, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Relevant MOS
What are you on about? He's the coach of a soccer team in the MLS. "Head coach" is his title. So what's an MO? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:52, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "Head Coach" ... "professional soccer". So what's an MO? Do you mean MOS? If so which? be specific or don't waste our time. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:10, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * This is all in relation to this edit and this earlier edit. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:12, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Martin is a Scottish Football Manager who happens to have a job title of Head Coach - The relevant MOS is that for WP:SOCCER which is linked above - The Navboxes at the bottom also apply this style which is why they say "Vancouver Whitecaps FC – managers," "Carolina RailHawks – managers", and "Cleveland City Stars – managers" respectively . Even the U.S. Canada specific task-force use manager on their project pages.  and he can be sourced as being such  as well   and so on...  how would you feel about a wording like:


 * Martin Rennie is a Scottish football manager and is currently head coach of the Vancouver Whitecaps FC of Major League Soccer.


 * Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 07:30, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Fail. Sorry. It says nothing about using "football" or "manager" over "soccer" or "head coach". I suspected you would err in that direction. I wrote to be specific and you have not provided a specific entry. I will be returning it if you can't find a place where a player's or manager's nationality should affect the use in the way that WP:STRONGNAT does for dates. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:59, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry any fail is on your part. The MOS clearly designates the use of "football" in all it's constituent parts and the only place it mentions the team manager is under the MOS for clubs where it designates that they should be listed as "Manager". Perhaps you can show me somewhere (anywhere?) that says they should be referred to as "Soccer Coaches"? At the moment we have a content dispute with two editors believing the change to referring to Martin as a "football manager" is both consistent with policy and verifiable  and one who wants to retain the status quo because (and I quote) "since the marjority of the present audience will be American" - the next step is to find consensus rather than reverting blindly. I have made a suggestion for a consensus position - feel free to engage in the next step of the dispute resolution process. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 14:24, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry any fail is on your part. There is no policy to use the term football over the term soccer in any situation. I've raised it the project's talk page. The club's page is the only official source. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:27, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * And using that logic, you would have several thousand player articles and a few dozen other coaching staff articles to change to remove all traces of the word soccer and head coach. You should also remove all instances of the word soccer on the article discussing the sport. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:33, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * And that would just be WP:POINTy, The club page is only a source for what his current job title is - not how he is considered in general. For instance Terry Venables is noted as an England Manager despite only being given the Job title of "Head Coach" when in the job. Martin can still be considered a football manager despite having a job title of Head Coach, that's not to say that other head coaches (particularly when unlike Martin they answer to a general manager and not directly to the board of directors) are not considered only "head coaches" but just that Martin is considered a manager and should be identified as such. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 14:52, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Calm down please. How about "... Is currently the head coach of the soccer team Vancouver Whitecaps ... and has previously been manager of ..." Both Head Coach and Manager are in my eyes a work description, not a profession. Mentoz86 (talk) 14:55, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Seems good.
 * @Stuart.Jamieson. You're missing the point. You stated that there was a MOS to support your claim and there isn't one. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:58, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * There is a MOS which makes no mention of Soccer or Coach - I stand by that edit summary. However any MOS is only a guideline and can be overruled by a local consensus, that's no different here. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 15:01, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * There is no MOS that stipulates what wording to use. There is a project. There are MOSes for players and clubs and other association football-related subjects, but none for managers/coaches. And none of the MOSs stipulate whether football or soccer should be used. So in short, you're adding your opinion to this article. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:32, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Are you really still going on about this rather than trying to find a consensus? Do any of the MOSs suggest the terms "Soccer" and/or "Coach", because you're implying that they do and I don't see it, I do see where they suggest the terms football and manager and hence I used it as a summary. That was yesterday and now today everyone else is discussing the actual issue (on the wikiproject) rather than the content of an edit summary, please feel free to join back in. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 16:29, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, but you're the one going on. The consensus is simple and has been for more than four years. You changed it and based it on a non-existent MOS. That is the point. Don't try to take the higher ground when you have not taken it. I can easily go to the project and change every instance of football to read "football or soccer (where appropriate)" and not get the kind of push-back that you're offering. So the solution is simple. Return to the consensus of silence as maintained for the past four years and then come up with a new one, and stop pushing this nonexistent MOS. I'm fine with Mentoz86's suggestion. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:04, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Where is a 4 year consensus? Less than 5 months since the removal of "football"  and just over 16 months for the removal of "Manager"  - neither was discussed and only a handful of editors have edited since then so let's go back to the consensus of silence that persisted for the first 25 months of silence if you wish... Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 18:23, 15 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry. I mis-spoke. The removal of football was done by a UK editor. Feel free to look at WP:CONSENSUS and review the reaching consensus through editing. It's been like this for a sufficient time. And again, Mentoz86's edit is good. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:30, 15 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if there is relevance to nationality of the removing editor, and Consensus can change at any time if the wording is revised by any editor that's happened here so we should establish a new consensus, building it through editing is out so that leaves discussion. as it stands Mentoz86 suggestion is partially out of context (I'm not sure if it builds on my suggestion, the previous state, or a new suggestion) I'd like to see a proposal for the lead sentence based on it before I would comment further on it. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 18:52, 15 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Building through edit has already happened. That was the bold part. It took quite a while to hit the R portion and was immediately reverted. The next phase is discussion. If we've dropped the MOS nonsense, we can discuss what's wrong with the compromise suggestions made by Mentoz86. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:27, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Recent edit is partially good, but when the majority of MLS readers arrive at the page and see football, they are not going to think "association football", they're going to thing "American football". It would be better to not pipe it at all. It deals with the manager/coach issue satisfactorily. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:38, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, save for the removal of the definite article. In American English, he is not "head coach of", he is "the head coach of". --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:39, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Does this article not use British English? Adam4267 (talk) 00:42, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
 * No, it does not. But it does not use American English either. There currently are no words in the article that are unique to either form. MOS:ENGVAR would be the policy for which dialect to use, but WP:TIES in this instance are to the league not the birth nation of the individual, as has already been argued. He may have been a rubbish collector in Thurso had it not been for his soccer career in North America. Again the primary audience for this article will be North Americans: readers of the MLS articles. To that end, may I draw your eyes to Major League Soccer and under the Head Coach column look at the other non-American (and non-Canadian) "mangers" of MLS clubs. Feel free to click through to those seven articles, including another Scot, and based on what you see there explain why this article should be the exception. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:05, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The article is about a living person, not about a job position WP:TIES applies to their nationality. If Martin becomes manager of the Australian national side tomorrow and stays there for 20 years, then a stronger tie there shouldn't mean rewriting the article in Australian English because of the application of WP:TIES - British English should apply and hold whatever he does in the future and the article does currently use British Date format (your addition I believe). As for your second point - I don't think anyone is disputing his job title is "Head coach" but nearly all these 6 articles (Sigi Schmid is actually American for the intents and purposes we're dealing with here) define the person as "a former footballer" who's current job is "head coach of..." (Piotr Nowak and Hans Backe are the two exceptions that say "former soccer player" and it's difficult to see why that should be so as their playing career was mainly in countries that use "football"). "a former footballer" doesn't apply to Martin, so already he's an exception to any (non-existent) rule. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 08:38, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Ambassadors FC
I was able to go through a few offline sources in a quarterly magazine associated with (though not edited by) Martin's father. - The Larbert Old Bulletin A couple of points pertinent to the article - In 2003 Rennie was part of an International Team set up by Ambassadors in Sport (AIS) that toured Africa (Mozambique, Sudan, South Africa) - it's unclear from the article whether he was coaching or playing, though I seem to recall this was after the cruciate ligament problem - Particularly in Sudan this was covered heavily, both by the Sudanese press, but also international news companies like Reuters (though the Reuters online archive seems particularly absent for that period) The Sudan Matches were televised live across the nation and covered on satellite for the whole of North Africa, Middle East and Europe. One game was against the Sudanese national team, the other against Amal Atbara a Sudanese premier team. No word on Cascade Surge, but In a 2006 magazine article Rennie discusses how he is moving to the US permanently in order to be a full time coach for AIS at their Cleveland Base - Coaching, then ultimately as the Director of Football for Ambassadors FC and continuing as director at the same time as he becomes head coach for Cleveland City Stars.. This is significantly different from where the article is now (where we suggest he came back to the U.S. at the offer of Cleveland) I can provide copies of these sources in pdf format to anyone that would like to use them however they see fit. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 15:57, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * A bit of digging shows that Cascade Surge were founded and run by AIS (As it appears Cleveland City Stars are/were)- In the 2006 article Rennie discusses his "Short Term Missions" for AIS presumably referring to the 2003 Tour, and Cascade Surge. Some of the above points also appear to be covered in a Mail on Sunday Article from last year "A different approach pays rich dividends; Rennie's background in sales and faith in God have led him from obscurity to the Major League;" - The Mail on Sunday (London, England) | September 25, 2011. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 17:34, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

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