Talk:Martinet

Removal of "Brazil" reference
I am a huge fan of this Terry Gilliam film - in fact, it is my all time favourite film. I'm saying this because the secretary who is busy transcribing the torture sessions in the film is doing so quite happily. She is not, in any way, a representation of a Martinet. If anything, she is simply a representation of bureaucracy in action - a common thread that runs through Gilliam's films. --One Salient Oversight 29 June 2005 10:41 (UTC)
 * Banally evil, in other words. 84.227.248.245 (talk) 19:55, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Zwarte Piet
The mention of Zwarte Piet -or black peter in english- and the claim that this item is frequently used by this character is incorrect. The actual item Zwarte Piet carries is a birch. An example of the item can be found under the activity; birching --Paddy Fitzgerald 03:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Is the tone of this article misleading?
"Martinet" is generally considered a strongly perjorative term. You don't get much sense of that in reading the article.
 * This is an old remark (e.g. before bots for automatic signing), but still valid, and I think I can explain: martinet has a set of different meanings, depending on context, and not all of those are pejorative.


 * The article used to have more of that contents once, but it was removed by a bit (IMO) overzealous cleanup patrollers (they should IMO should look a bit for sources for citations, as instructed by text on template, before removing contents not explicitly supported by citations.


 * I addressed that problem a bit by restoring part of deleted contents (some deleted together with citations supporting them), and some together with adding citations that were available but not before used in the article. I also found some additional info (and sources for citations supporting it). But some of those are not yet of WP reliable type, so I didn't add that part of contents yet (until I hopefully find better sources). --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 04:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Italian witches
So why were presumably Italian witches referring to "the Devil" as Master Martinet, a French term? My information is from Montague Summers' English translation of Francesco Maria Guazzo's Compendium Maleficarum, written in Latin. In a footnote to elucidate the usage of "Petit maistre" as an epithet for the Devil, Summers references Jean Bodin's La Démonomanie des Sorciers, which quoted Paolo Grillandi's firsthand examination of a witch in Italy. Lisa the Sociopath 23:33, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The corresponding word in Italian is martello (<Latin martulus), which means "hammer". In the same footnote Summers also quotes an author (?) named Debris (I cannot find information on this author), book II, chapter XVI:


 * "Evocabatur voce quadam, velut humana ab ipso daemone, quem non vocant daemonem, sed Magisterulum, aliae magistrum Martinettum, sive Martinellum."


 * Magisterulum is Latin for "Little Master"; magistrum Martinettum, sive Martinellum is Latin for "Master Martinet, or Martinel(lo)". I don't know if in Italian it also referred to a whip. The epithet is interesting. The Devil in witch lore was often said to flog witches, either for "fun" or because they violated some practice or rule (thus it could refer to the whip or the stickler who uses it). Yet the "hammer" meaning also may have been intended for reasons I will discuss later, although it is apparently OR and not usable here. Lisa the Sociopath 00:23, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I can't find my book but there was a version of Ptah (basically the demiurge among the ancient Egyptians) who was depicted as a diminutive figure holding a hammer (indicating his function as demiurge). Ptah was here depicted as diminutive presumably to indicate that he is an "emanation" of a greater power above the demiurge (which fits in with ancient Egyptian beliefs). The Italian witches referring to the Devil as Martinello or Martello etc. could then be evidence that there were witch cults in Medieval Europe who viewed the Devil as the demiurge of the world, similar to the view of the Cathars in southern France. This would explain the "Little Master" and "Master Martinet" or "Martinello" epithets. Lisa the Sociopath 00:45, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Larousse
Why is there a See Also for Larousse? It actually points to a disambiguation page. I was going to repoint it to something more specific, but don't see how any of the options apply. PerlKnitter (talk) 13:00, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I removed it.

Cavalier24601 (talk) 23:35, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Change Boy's Pussy?
It seems that Cat of Nine Tails would be more appropriate, and skip the American pejorative term. Guest: Zane

Recent changes

 * I found out that a lot of previous contents was removed, (if I recall correctly, including some citations supporting it), and I restored most of it. Persons doing removal in one case (etymology from latin) wrongly supposed no relevant source existed, which I found and added citation.


 * For the other piece of info I restored I know it was true in several countries in Europe (at least), and intend to find and cite sources. In my youth (half a century ago) I recall (use and stories from my then elders) about use of implements intended to clean dust out of textiles (carpets, blankets etc) by hitting them (in that country a wicker/ratan rug beater implement was common, like it seems martinet, as described in the article, for France). We used such implements regularly for dusting (before vacuum cleaners become common), and I recall unruly children threatened with use of such implements as a warning about 1950-1960, but not of actual use of them on children (or myself), a lot like to what is described in the article for martinet in France.

I'll have to search for published sources about that before adding it to the article, but that personal knowledge made me restore the other piece that was removed even before I have found citations that support it.


 * I have found sources for citation (in Slovenian, but not yet authoritative ones). Implements used (for both dusting and korporeal punishment of children) were traditionally called klofar and praker in my youth in my part of Slovenia, which before WWI (up to about 1918) was part of Empire of Austria and Hungary, so klofar comes from German klopfen/klopfer, slapping repeatedly/tool for doing it (mostly for dusting blankets, rugs etc.). Slovenian official equivalent would be iztepač. I have no idea for ethimology of praker yet.


 * I also don't recall how to mark German and Slovenan words, but this should be reasonably OK for talkpage. --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 18:29, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Clarification needed
In section Person, subsection In French of the article an editor added {{clarification needed|}October 2018|reason=What is the relevance of this to the definition?|date=October 2018}}. His question what relevance of that to the definition could not be answered there (yet).

The meaning of the word martinet is depending of the context (both geographic and historical), and so meaning (and definition) varies widely. The statement where the template was put to, was an example (and should be put to citations, not article text, but I'm not yet there).

Because of WP policy that Wikipedia is not a dictionary, it might be well to think if a link to wiktionary martinet might not be better for a broad overview of possible meanings (or a disambiguation page), but wiktionary is also not yet up to that.

So for the moment, I'll do a compromise. I'll
 * add link to wiktionary entry to the top of the article (regarding etymology, different uses and meanings), ✅
 * link clarification needed template in the article here,✅ and
 * look for sources to upgrade that part of the text and add citations.

Help (finding citations etc.) would be very welcome. Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 17:39, 27 April 2024 (UTC)