Talk:Martini (cocktail)/Archive 1

Early Unsigned comments
Is pink correct for rosé in french ?

I have no idea of drinks, but anyway I wonder, is really "irrational" a preference of shaken over stirred? Shaking could add more air to the mixture that stirring, and that could have some subtle consequence.

Shaking also chips the ice, which leads to more melting and a more dilute martini.


 * Ice chis detract from the drink aesthetically as well. Ice chips floating around... I really think this should be included as another possible reason for stirring. I know quite a few bartenders and afficianados who specify on this reason alone.

Never seen ice chips floating in a shaken Martini, myself. They melt too soon. As far as diluting - well, that isn't necessarily bad. Remember, you are supposed to add a touch of water to good scotch also. I bit of water can help bring out other characteristics of alcohol. I think either shaken or stirred is perfectly fine and considered normal. JPetersen (talk) 08:38, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Gibson
The ratios specified in this article are suspect. A simple google on Gibson Cocktail will reveal almost NO other sources that specify a 6:1 gin to vermouth ratio for a Gibson. Why on earth then is this ration accepted here from some obscure website and Association that represents exactly nothing? Sharing knowledge, not attempting to ratify defacto standards should be the purpose of Wikipedia and so to present something so contentious as ratios in a Gibson as solid fact is not only misleading but also suspicious.

@Redmind, if you have a problem with the IBA Gibson ratio, then please edit the ratio or remove the IBA table altogether. Writing personal comments that include the word "absurd" on the actual article page should not be the purpose of Wikipedia either. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

OK: I am simply trying to provide the best, that is the most unbiased, definition of a Gibson to Wiki users. A simple google search wil reveal most receipes at a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio (note: especially French and German websites give 2:1). The page as it stands presents the IBA definitions as fact, and undisputed at that. Given the reality, andby that I mean confirmation from independent sources, a Gibson "should" be defined as having between a 2:1 and 3:1 ratio of gin to vermouth. This is the only point I am trying to make... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Redmind (talk • contribs).

Please see Talk:Gibson for a discussion of how to best disambiguate "Gibson". Thanks. --rbrwr&plusmn; 10:59, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

History
About the history, the Martini,Sola & C., which much later became Martini&Rossi, was started in Turin in the distant 1863, and they were surely present in one of the Universal Expositions in Paris of a few years later (I once saw somewhere the original label commemorating the event, and the awarded medal was painted in the label since not so many years ago, perhaps still nowadays). That said, I wouldn't rule out that the name of the cocktail could come from that of the Turin's vermouth maker, God knows, perhaps someone brought that in the US just from that very same exposition. --Alessandro Riolo 19:59, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

>> "The gin and vermouth martini dates from the 1930s through the 1970s"  This is simply incorrect. The gin and vermouth martini pre- and post-dates this span by decades, as shown by all reputable histories of the drink. BradGad &#91;&#91;User_talk:BradGad&#124;(Talk)]] 22:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The Martinez never contained "maraschino cherry liquid". The correct ingredient is Maraschino liqueur, which is nothing like the sweet neon-red fruits. It is a colorless liqueur distilled from the fruit, pits, and stems of the maraska cherry. Any online recipe for the Martinez cocktail will show this. Thehersch 18:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Aledeniz above. This History seems to be more of a myth and the source cited is from a city page of Martinez, California, the citizens of which may have originated the myth. Martini and Rossi created a dry vermouth that is used in the creation of the American martini. If you order a martini in continental Europe you will most likely recieve a vermouth on the rocks. Continental Europeans are actually a little confused when they see James Bond drinking a martini and they think it is the serving glass that is special with little knowledge of the drink itself. Anyway, it is obvious that the martini in the US gained it's name from Martini and Rossi vermouth used in the drink, not some Martinez guy. This section needs extensive cleanup. I'm going to make an attempt. MoralMoney 11:19, 20 Jun 2009 (MST)

The Martinez history, with some variations (sometimes it is the name of the town where they are, sometimes it is the destination of the miner), I have heard many times, and a fast look around can show many possible sources for it, like: http://www.martiniart.com/historyofthemartini.aspx, http://www.after5catalog.com/the-martini-somewhat-factual-history-a-14.html or http://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_guide/203868/cooking_recipes/the_history_of_the_martini.html which are not the Martinez city itself. DelCano (talk) 23:44, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

The reference to "Sauternes" just doesn't make sense. Sauternes is an extremely SWEET wine (made from grapes with "noble rot". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauternes_(wine)   The reference is clearly from the city of Martinez website.  Do you think they may have been thinking of Sancerres instead?  And why exactly would that have been available in a gold rush era saloon?--Thuriaux (talk) 22:55, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

James Bond martini
Someone created an article with the rather unwieldy title "Medium Dry Vodka Martini with Lemon Peel, Shaken, not Stirred" which I propose be merged into this Martini cocktail article. Any objections, or other thoughts? Jonathunder 01:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm cleaning it up now. —Michael Z. 2006-02-09 17:20 Z 

The article is about Martini cocktails. They are described as being made with gin. An example of a (fictional) consumer given is James Bond. Yet his cocktail is made with vodka not gin - there is no gin in a James Bond martini. Either the vodka martini should be excluded from the article entirely, or the cocktail should be clearly described as being made with either gin or vodka as the primary ingredient.124.197.15.138 (talk) 01:58, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Move to Martini (cocktail)
Any objections to moving this to the disambiguated page title Martini (cocktail)? This drink is practically always called a "Martini", rarely a "Martini cocktail". This would allow linking with the pipe trick:  shows up as Martini. —Michael Z. 2006-01-30 17:23 Z 


 * Done. —Michael Z. 2006-02-09 17:20 Z 

A possible some-argue-ism
"It has also been suggested that the V-shaped glass connotates the symbol of the sacred feminine. This gives the drinker the ability to "drink from a woman," explaining the sex appeal of martinis in popular culture."

Who has suggested this and where? --Ian Maxwell 22:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

shaken not stirred
Someone really ought to go through the whole article and put in the info that in the James Bond novels the martini was originally (and correctly) specified as being "stirred, not shaken". One of the producers of the early Bond films got it screwed up and it has never been straightened out again." Hayford Peirce 23:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Checked a few Fleming's books and found the above statement incorrect. The waiter brought the Martinis, shaken and not stirred, as Bond had stipulated, and some slivers of lemon peel in a wine glass. (Diamonds are Forever). Bond said, "And I would like a medium Vodka dry Martini — with a slice of lemon peel. Shaken - and not stirred, please. I would prefer Russian or Polish vodka." (Dr. No). Serge

Firstly, someone can't spell Ian Fleming, and secondly Bond does indeed order a martini shaken not stirred in the first Bond book Casino Royale (although not in those exact words). I haven't read all the others, so I defer to someone more obsessive than me. I've fixed the spelling, not sure whether to just drop some of the incorrect 007 stuff or amend somehow. Dave Beta 23:45, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

"In addition the drink is a perfect aperitif - it cleanses the mouth before eating - and the tiny air bubbles restrict the gin (or vodka) from reaching all tastebuds. This is why purists would claim that a martini should always be stirred." -- "Perfect apertif" is clearly non-NPOV. The second clause of the sentence is quite possibly counterfactual (it's generally accepted that bubbles in champagne improve the perception of flavor, with smaller bubbles doing a better job than larger ones). And "purists" who advocate against shaking martinis use a variety of appeals, most of them far more vague than an air-bubble theory.

Martini photo
How about a more archetypical martini photo? The glass currently pictured is abnormally stylish. I primer for martinis should show what the average martini (or matini glass) looks like, not a avant-garde variation.64.134.154.150 17:26, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Check out the picture at Manhattan (cocktail) -- I used an ordinary (I think) martini glass that I bought at Bed Bath and Beyond. I could take another photo, this time with a real martini in it. Hayford Peirce 17:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * That sounds good - I was going to try to find a photo, but I'm fuzzy about fair use laws. But if you take one yourself for wikipedia, that's clearly legal, right?64.134.154.150 14:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Absolutely -- in fact, it's about the only image use that no one at all can find fault with under any pretext. I'll mix myself a nice martini tonight or tomorrow and take a photo of it more or less like I did with the manhattan picture, including the contents.  Hmmm, I'll have to go buy a bottle of olives.... Hayford Peirce 19:20, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Hopefully nobody will object to the martini photo I found in the Wikipedia Commons and added. The article seemed like it could use another picture, since there is so much text. --Willscrlt 12:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Sweet dark vermouth
It is possible that in Jerry Thomas's trips to Europe he influenced Italy's barmen, where the martini denotes sweet dark vermouth, rather than the cocktail, which is made with dry white vermouth

Which is made with dry white vermouth, the sweet dark vermouth, or the cocktail? —Michael Z. 2006-11-16 07:22 Z 

Because of the likely origins of the martini, my contention is that a valid martini recipe includes either the dry white vermouth or the sweet red vermouth and gin. If not specifying when ordering, the dry would be defaulted to as it is the more popular, however in reading any "old" (pre-1930) cocktail publication, the sweet vermouth is assumed. Contemporary *accurate* references to an "original martini" recipe make reference to the use of sweet vermouth. - Nate

Article needs some clean up
Around the "Over the Years" section and below, the article is badly formatted. The line "Vodka Martinis" (just below Over the Years) is out of place and doesn't make much sense to me. Should the line be a heading? I think someone should have a look at this. Thanks. --Karih 16:27, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated claim about the legality of the Martini in the US
"Due to the potent ingredience it has been baned in amny staes of America."

Ignoring the spelling errors, this assertion is unsubstantiated. While many states in the United States have differing laws (see Alcohol_laws_of_the_United_States_by_state )regarding the purchase of alcohol from retail or wholesale vendors, as well as the transportation of alcohol across state lines, liquor service is available in licensed restaurants, banquet and catering facilities, airport lounges, and private clubs in the vast majority of US cities and states. Approximately 10% of the US population lives in so-called "Dry Counties" where access to the liquor used in the standard Martini variants (e.g. Vodka, Gin, various liqueurs) is restricted. Note, however, that these restrictions are not uniform across all dry counties. Source: [] Deshelm 21:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Removed Personal Recollections about Gibson
I removed the following personal story about one version of the origin of the Gibson. While this is interesting info, it violates the policy against original research and also uses "I" language that's inappropriate for an article using a neutral point of view. Still, I didn't want this information completely lost, so it's pasted below.

My father, my uncle and my grandfather said this was the case. My grandfather was born in 1895 and remembered "Uncle Walter" drinking the Gibson when he was a child. WDK Gibson was the brother-in-law of JD Spreckels the Sugar King, an executive with the Spreckels companies and one of the first trustees of the California Palace of the Legion of Honor. The version I know goes that WDK disapproved of the drinks being shaken and began making his own which he mixed rather than shook. It was about the time he first joined the Bohemian which would have been about 1897. He would make them for other men too and it wasn't long before they started calling them "Gibson's Cocktail." In his recipe the drink was made with 1/3 dry French vermouth, 2/3 Plymouth Gin and with a twist of orange peel squeezed so that a bit of the oil floated on the top. He believed that by eating onions one would never catch cold, and hence the onion made its way into the drink too.

"Charles McCabe tells the story(which he slightly garbles) in his book 'The Good Man's Weakness'. The earliest printed reference I have seen for the Gibson was from a bar book of about 1912 which makes no mention of the onion; but gives an otherwise more or less accurate description of what it calls a 'Gibson Cocktail'. And in fact that's what older people here in San Francisco always called it. Lucius Beebe in the Stork Club bar book was responsible for suggesting, merely as a guess that the Gibson had something to do with Charles Dana Gibson the illustrator, but in later years his partner Charles Clegg categorically defended the correct San Francisco origin. As to the Vodka Gibson: I am told that was created at the California Club in Los Angeles-Charles Pollok Gibson."

Rickterp 16:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

New Variations
I removed many obscure and new variations of the martini from the article, including the Saketini mentioned below. Some of them were actually commercials for brands of liquor and made up probably for this article. For an encyclopedic entry, I think only variations that have stood the test of time should be included. -- AstralisLux

Someone asked what criteria should "well-established" variations be judged and included in the article? There are many obscure variations that have been included in the article, as well as made-up variations that were designed simply as publicity stunts for companies or organizations (e.g., Goldeneye). I think it's important that an encyclopedic entry on the martini clarifies what it is. I think everyone can agree that simply having a mixed drink in a cocktail glass does not make it a martini.

A martini, at its root, is a simple concoction of gin or vodka with vermouth, usually under common parts. Minor changes that provide accents to its flavor, such as an olive, or olive brine, or a lemon peel do not overwhelm the simplicity of the drink. Otherwise, any mixed drink could be termed a martini. An encyclopedia's entry on the martini should stick with the most basic and common ingredients with the variations that have stood the test of time (i.e., dirty, Gibson, gin, or vodka) to illustrate what it is. The entry doesn't need to include the exotic variations, anyhow. AstralisLux (talk) 04:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with the removal of terrible variations, but it should be done consistently. The variations previously left were not necessarily distinguished, well-known variations.  In general, the cocktail pages are extremely inconsistent about reporting variations, and as has been mentioned many times, wikipedia certainly isn't a recipe book.  The Wikibook on cocktails seems to have stopped a year or so ago, but it's likely a place to better be listing every cocktail recipe.


 * While you say "at it's root, it's a simple concoction of gin or vodka with vermouth", that is only true of the Martini since about 1930. Before that it seems that the martini was made with maraschino liqueur, sweet vermouth, bitters and topped with a cherry, so your view expressed above is certainly biased towards some conceptual ideal. You can't deny that restaurants and bars offer martini menus and that there is hardly universal agreement on how to even make a basic martini.  Appletini or Chocolate Martini are so commonplace that it's hard to justify denying them a mention IMO.  Simply because variations do not match a purist viewpoint does not mean they aren't present and popular and that people might be looking for information on them.  Italydiplo (talk) 05:40, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You've made some good points. Indeed, the martini today is not the same martini before the 1930s.  But, the 1930s version and above is what would be commonly considered a martini, practically globally, by everyone. I believe it is safe to say that this classic martini is under no dispute. The article does a good job of explaining this history.  And the addition of vodka in place of gin is something that changed since, at the latest, the 1960s, and replaced gin in popularity in the 1990s.  The article does a very good job of explaining that as well.  There are many variations, but it isn't clear what makes a martini beyond what we commonly know as a martini.  Martini bars serve the classic martini we know, with some subtle variations, but most of the other recipes are various mixed drinks and passed off as martinis.  Whether we are purists or not, these other drinks are disputed as being classified as martinis.  The flavored vodkas has really changed the concept of what a martini is.  Consider when vodka became an alternative to gin; there was very little dispute that it was still a martini.  But that was the only ingredient that changed: a clear distilled alcohol for another clear distilled alcohol.


 * If Wikipedia starts adding the disputed variations, it's giving its authority (for whatever it's worth) to the idea that they are legitimate martinis and not simply various mixed drinks. Perhaps a way around this would be to classify the section with the variations as a subsection of the history of martinis and recent trends but I think more thought is needed about it.


 * I think it might be worthwhile to collect more research with people in the industry, and experts in history and culture, to get their opinion about it. If the variations are included, then the article needs to explain how a mixed drink is termed a martini.  If we cannot answer this, I don't think the variations should be included. It could be that any drink that contains a super-dominant clear liquor with minor accents, or at least starts out that way, could be considered a martini.  It's a good project.  AstralisLux (talk) 06:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Citation needed for Saketini
The Saketini seems to be unfounded, even if reletivly new. A citation would be nice. (Preference for something which is not an add.)

Exor135 21:58, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Extra Dry?
Does anyone know how “extra dry” came to mean LESS dry vermouth rather than more? This goes against the classification used with wines and champagnes. For example, dry or brut typically refers to wines with very low sugar content. These wines are usually “sour”, fragrant and “light” on tongue. If the same classification were to be used with martinis, then extra dry martini should mean a more “sour” martini, i.e. with an extra portion of dry vermouth. I suspect that people unfamiliar with wine classifications understood “extra dry” to refer to the amount of vermouth, rather than its classification. And it stuck. As a result today one can order an “extra dry” Manhattan with red vermouth! Can anyone address this question? SEN--71.31.214.136 02:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * As you said "dry" in reference to a martini means "a lack of vermouth".  While white vermouth isn't very sweet, it's sweeter than gin, generally.  So, it's essentially the same as your comparison with sugar in wine.  There is no "sour" martini, some would just refer to one with the (what I feel is) "proper" amount of vermouth as "sweet".  As for your analogue with Manhattan's and red vermouth, I personally know what you mean as to a "dry" Manhattan (one with less red vermouth than normal), be wary ordering it out.  I once mad this request and was served a Manhattan made with white vermouth! --JD79 03:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * As I recall, and it has been a few years since last I read deeply into the subject, Grimes and others suggest that the original reference was to indicate which vermouth was to be used, i.e., dry, white vermouth instead of sweet, red. Once the dry vermouth came to be the standard, the cultism of martini-drinkers continued to expand and those who were fond of speaking of dryness re-applied it to the quantity of vermouth. I'm not certain how he backed this up or whether it answers the question, but I offer what I have available. Czrisher 12:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

In Pop Culture
Are the references to Sweet Home, Alabama and Hitch really significant? Who added those, Grey Goose?

"In the 2005 hit movie Hitch, Eva Mendes' character 'Sara' is bought a Grey Goose Martini by Will Smith's character 'Alex Hitchens'."

"In the 2002 movie Sweet Home Alabama, Reese Witherspoon's character orders a Grey Goose Martini dirty."

Silver Bullet cocktail
The definition I heard is gin with a little scotch. I ordered one once: the scotch even makes the "silver" look a bit "tarnished". This site and this one agree.--BillFlis 17:42, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Martinez Cocktail described in Bon Vivant's Companion: 1862 or 1887?
The article says
 * The earliest known reference to the Martinez is found in "The Bon Vivants Companion: Or How to Mix Drinks," first published in 1862.

However, a New York Times article&mdash;Grimes, William (1991), "Through a Cocktail Glass, Darkly," The New York Times, August 25, 1991, p. SM14&mdash;says the Martinez
 * pop up in the 1887 edition of Jerry Thomas's Bon Vivant's Companion, the most famous of the early American books on drinks.

Assuming that 1862 is indeed the date of the first edition, does anyone know whether that edition actually described the Martinez?

Grimes says of the recipe&mdash;one dash bitters, two dashes maraschino, one ounce Old Tom (sweet) gin, one wine glass sweet vermouth, and optional sugar syrup&mdash;”this is no martini; it’s a molten gumdrop.” Dpbsmith (talk) 22:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Shaken, not stirred, antioxidant study a hoax
According to this article in C&EN, the antioxidant study was a hoax... Read Article 148.61.214.187 21:51, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

This paper was published in the annual humorous issue of the British Medical Journal. It is not meant to be taken seriously. 68.33.18.126 (talk) 04:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I removed the references. They should not be here. -- AstralisLux —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.30.20.161 (talk) 06:42, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Cuervo, Jose Cuervo
I'd add the Cuervo variant tequini, if I was sure it was legit. Can somebody confirm & add? Trekphiler (talk) 09:38, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Introduction
Why the "citation needed" after the article's second sentence? "Over the years, the martini has become perhaps the most well-known mixed alcoholic beverage" is the kind of sensible, general-knowledge assertion that would seem (1) not to require citation and (2) futile to try to verify. How is one supposed to support such a broad assertion? Isn't it like saying "Shakespeare is perhaps the best-known writer in the English language"? The "perhaps" is a nice qualifier: It asks the reader to consider the probable truthfulness of the assertion but avoids the arrogance of an autocratic, unassailable pronouncement. I say, delete the "citation needed." RI-jim (talk) 22:55, 17 May 2008 (UTC)RI-jim


 * Um, the problem is that it's not clear at all that it's the most well-known mixed beverage, at least, not if we understand "martini" strictly as this article does. Many people are unaware that "martini" is not just any cocktail served ice cold and up; many people think vodka is an ingredient.  Take away all those people, I'm not sure it's as well known as, for example, a rum and coke, a screwdriver, or a cosmopolitan.  Tb (talk) 20:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I've made it "one of the most well-known" which I have no problem with, and then we won't need a fact tag. Tb (talk) 01:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Golden Eye
The last sentence of this section, "Enjoy a "Goldeneye" as a pre-dinner cocktail, or after dinner with a fine, imported cigar," makes it sound like an advertisement for this martini. Because it adds nothing I will be removing it.--Ljn2024 01:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

This version has been removed. It was indeed a PR stunt. AstralisLux (talk) 04:33, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Lore and Mixology
This Section is full of holes. There is a need for citations, There are tons on unverified claims, It has no neutrality whatsoever, and uses more weasel words that a weasel itself. If someone dosen't clean up this section, it may have to be deleted entirely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.118.68.193 (talk) 01:13, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Page Organization
This page has become an unorganized mishmash, and could use an overhaul. And what's with all the references to sweet vermouth? While everyone is free to mix the drink as he prefers, using sweet vermouth in place of dry vermouth is a very oddball recipe... but here it's presented as a standard variant. BradGad (talk) 09:40, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

- Not "oddball" at all BradGad - especially when you consider the likely origins or the Martini and the fact that sweet vermouth existed before the French ever came up with Dry Vermouth. Because of trends, however, the dry vermouth is assumed... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.88.251.221 (talk) 17:00, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

"Bruised" Gin
What does that even mean? I think it's a complete farce. The only difference I can think of would be that shaking the ice in the mixer will cause the ice to melt quicker, thus diluting it more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.105.3.202 (talk) 19:10, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

James Bond
I'm as big a fan of James Bond as the next guy, but do we really need to mention him five different times in this article? Rees11 (talk) 00:27, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sadly, this is the end result of eliminating trivia sections. 69.231.232.43 (talk) 23:50, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Kangaroo reference
Is a martini with Vodka instead of Gin not a vodkatini, which already has an entry and should be linked in the first sentence of the article? I've never heard of the Kangaroo reference and it certainly isn't a modern term at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.169.188.146 (talk) 18:13, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, I have certainly heard of the term, and "modern" or not, it's a better way of describing it than "vodka-tini" which is childish and a bit we-todd-it. Martinis are made with gin. Period. Anything else is different enough to be called a Kangaroo.68.124.184.13 (talk) 04:42, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I also use "kangaroo" instead of one of the multitude of "-tini" designations that render meaningless the original word. I changed the first sentence of the entry to be more inclusive and less judgemental: but I think that the vodka and vermouth combination is properly called a kangaroo, with "vodka martini" and the appalling "vodkatini" being more recent appellations. Kakashi64 (talk) 18:42, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

"Subtly"
Whatever could this mean? The martini tends to be subtly used in books and movies in Anglo-American culture... --jpgordon:==( o ) 05:48, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That was bizarre. I've changed it - super &beta;&epsilon;&epsilon; cat 19:30, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Move the vodka reference to the variations section, omit altogether from intro
A martini is a cocktail of gin and vermouth. There are myriad manipulations, of which the vodka substitution is one of the more popular. However, substituting the gin for vodka is, in fact, NOT a martini at all, but a different drink. I don't think the vodka reference should be in the intro to the article at all, because this article is about a martini. Those have gin, not vodka. - super &beta;&epsilon;&epsilon; cat 19:17, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

martini variations
This is to discuss whether to merge List of martini variations into this article--Robert Treat (talk) 23:48, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm wondering whether it should simply be deleted because it is not really encyclopedia but instead a bunch of little recognised recipes. This article already suffers from a bit too much OR. Any merge would need some bold editing. Efficacious (talk) 20:02, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I've tagged List of martini variations for db as it is entirely unreferenced and full of very localised recipes. Some of them might belong on a drink recipe web site but certainly not WP. Efficacious (talk) 20:14, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay attempt at speedy delete failed. I'm still loath to bring much if anything across. Efficacious (talk) 23:44, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I have redirected List of martini variations to this article. I haven't moved any content across I'm dubious any of it should survive and indeed the already present list is problematic. Efficacious (talk) 04:35, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Disambig link
I think that the sentence at the end of the intro about the brand of vermouth should be removed; the intro should cover the primary topic. I propose removing it and adding a disamb link at the top to the effect of "for the brand of vermouth, see..." - super &beta;&epsilon;&epsilon; cat 01:29, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I've pulled it from the intro all together as the relevance is already discussed in the origins section. Efficacious (talk) 00:31, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Cultural reference, quote
Would anyone object to adding this (terribly translated) excerpt from the german version of this article? My english isn't all that great, so someone might want to look over it:

When asked how many Martini cocktails one should drink at a party, a quote by Dorothy Parker originating from the 1920s is often cited:

„I like to have a martini, two at the very most. After three I'm under the table, after four I'm under my host!“

--Zhokar (talk) 15:05, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Why olives?
What's the purpose of the olives? Just a garnish? Or does it add some flavor or something to the drink? Captain Packrat (talk) 05:04, 29 June 2010 (UTC) Gives an oilier finish which is why many prefer lemon rind. 86.139.35.227 (talk) 18:20, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Removing variants
I know it may not be popular but I have removed the growing list of variants and overly detailed explanation of ingredients. WP is not a recipe list and basically all of the additions are local and/or home grown. Efficacious (talk) 06:39, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Weird bit in Gibson section
I'm moving this here until I can figure out what it is. It was at the bottom of the Gibson section:

Case:245 F.2d 524, Wells Fargo Bank & Union Trust Co., Executor of the Will of Walter D. K. Gibson, Deceased, Appellant, v. UNITED STATES of America, Appellee., No. 15046. United States Court of Appeals Ninth Circuit, May 6, 1957, Rehearing Denied June 4, 1957 at the Bohemian Club around 1898 or 1900.

Colincbn (talk) 02:57, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

New Variations
I agree that, though most variations should be omitted (as has been done), the official International Bartenders Association (IBA) variations specified on many pages on Wikipedia (including IBA_Official_Cocktail and even the footer of this page itself) should be included. Variations such as: Martini (Dry), Martini (Perfect), and Martini (Sweet) are valid, time tested versions (unlike the modern "Appletini" or "Chocolate Martini") and have actual references in the URLs themselves. Robisodd (talk) 13:56, 8 September 2011 (UTC)robisodd

I completely agree. I was redirected here while searching for recommended proportions regarding perfect martinis. It wouldn't take more than one or a few sentences, but I think as long as the redirect is there, it makes sense to mention it in the article. Simon 85.230.106.23 (talk) 19:34, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Picture for the article
I suggest finding a new picture in the place of the second photo in this article, since serving a Martini -or any other drink for this matter- with two olives is considered a faulty serving. There always should be one or three olives, or none if someone order it "naked". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.164.194.198 (talk) 18:24, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

'In popular culture'?
I suggest an 'in popular culture' section. Dorothy Parker's poem doesn't really fit in the 'preparation' section as it's about drinking martinis, not making them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kilburn London (talk • contribs) 13:29, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Vodka "Martini"
Since many people refer to vodka cocktails as "martinis", some explanation of this change of the use of the word "martini" is justified, and an explanation as to why vodka cocktails are not properly considered "martinis". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.102.33 (talk) 21:31, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


 * It's true. Most times I've ordered a martini in a bar in the past couple years I get annoyingly asked "which kind of vodka would you like?" I guess gin has gone out of favor a bit. 50.191.22.227 (talk) 02:32, 17 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Drives me nuts having to specify a "gin" martini. Eastcote (talk) 06:19, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Savoy Cocktail Book says shaken, not stirred
I checked my 2011 edition of the Savoy Cocktail book. It says that martinis are shaken, not stirred. This shook me a bit. I updated the main page. Does anyone have a copy of Savoy which says stirred?


 * The Savoy Cocktail Book, lovely book though it is, says a great many things which were not necessarily the common practice in other bars. There are copious errors in recipes, leading some to suspect that it was only indifferently edited from Craddock's notes. A better source on the Martini in what was to become its dominant 20th century form is Harry McElhone (1922). MetaGrrrl (talk) 06:32, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

The "traditional" martini is Gin and *sweet* vermouth?
Please provide reference for the statement in the subject. In checking a few other sources, a "traditional" or "classic" martini is always listed as Gin and *dry* vermouth. Perhaps in the early 20th century, sweet vermouth is used, but a citation is needed.

http://www.martinirecipe.net/classic-martini.html

http://cocktails.about.com/od/cocktailrecipes/a/flvr_mrtnis.htm

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/the-classic-gin-martini-recipe.html#!

http://allrecipes.com/recipe/martini-cocktail/detail.aspx

Jpk0721 (talk) 04:43, 4 February 2015 (UTC)


 * The issue here is the difference between "original" and "traditional". In the 19th century the Martini originated with Old Tom Gin and sweet (red) vermouth, sometimes also with gomme syrup as well. They liked sweet cocktails the way 20th century Americans like soda pop. By the first decades of the 20th century, London dry gin became popular and took over, then dry vermouth largely replaced sweet by the 1920s or 1930s. See Applegreen 1909, Grohusko 1910, McElhone 1922, Judge Jr. 1927, and Craddock 1930. MetaGrrrl (talk) 06:38, 4 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the fix. Jpk0721 (talk) 05:02, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Capitalization
All other cocktail names are capitalized except this one. It differentiates it from the vermouth, I guess, but doesn't seem very logical. 85.157.76.57 (talk) 08:53, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

"Winston Churchill was said to whisper the word 'vermouth' to a freshly poured glass of gin.[citation needed]"

This was tagged as a citation needed back in Aug 2012 and AFAICT is not verifiable. I've found a slew of Churchill Martini anecdotes going back to 1965, but the whispering vermouth thing doesn't appear to have hit the streets until the 80s. The earliest I can find relays the more common "glance at the bottle of vermouth while pouring the gin" story, but that's also hearsay in a magazine article, so I'm just deleting that line all together. Reve (talk) 19:56, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

It's rather poor style having 'martini' both in uppercase and lowercase with no apparent logic as to why; especially when they appear in the same paragraph. Would someone contributing regularly to this entry make and state which it should be in this 'talk' section, please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.30.225.251 (talk) 01:23, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Hatnote
I reverted the change to the hatnote per Hatnote: No one who is looking for Martini (vermouth) is going to type in Martini (cocktail). They might type in Martini, which will take them to the disambiguation page rather than here. The link to Vodka Martini is correct because there is a distressingly large number of people who actually think the "vodka martini" is a real cocktail. Kendall-K1 (talk) 11:45, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * do not pipe non-disambiguation links
 * Only mention other topics and articles if there is a large possibility of a reader arriving at the article either by mistake or with another topic in mind.

This wouldn't ever be a two-ingredient cocktail, would it?
They're always going to add something else besides the gin and vermouth, like orange bitters or something, right? Зенитная Самоходная Установка (talk) 22:54, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
 * No, it's a two-ingredient cocktail. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:00, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Martini brand
A popular brand of vermouth is called Martini. Perhaps a short mention of this would be in place. Imho it doesn't need sources, other than a link to [Martini_(vermouth)], but i'd first like to share the idea here. PizzaMan  ♨♨♨  11:37, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Contradiction between this article and Dryness (taste)
The article Dryness (taste) says "Contrary to popular belief, in a dry martini "dry" refers to the type of vermouth used, sweet or dry, not the amount of vermouth used in the drink." This article says "The dryness of a martini, referring to the ratio of gin to vermouth." Which is it? 50.191.22.227 (talk) 02:27, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Both. It depends. Some people claim that it's possible to make assumptions, but their claim relies on an imaginary "things that everybody already knows" knowledge bank that doesn't exist anywhere. A dry martini is one or the other of these, but *no one knows* which one is meant unless they are told explicitly. (They might believe they know, but they don't.) TooManyFingers (talk) 05:55, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Dryness refers to the amount of neat spirit in a drink. A 100% dry drink is neat spirit. The Dryness (taste) is wrong insofar that you can make a Dry Martini using a sweet Bianco vermouth, just that you have to use a miniscule amount of it. But we call it a Dry Martini usually when it is served 6:1 or dryer as a disambiguation, since a Martini means quite a few things: the [Dry] Martini cocktail, and the entire family of cocktails mixing a predominant white spirit base and must use an aromatised wine of some kind. Zzing123 (talk) 04:21, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

The word "Dry" *inside this article*
I'm not discussing general word usage, but just this article in particular. Within the article, I think it's probably necessary to either individually explain and disambiguate every single use of the word "dry", or else to declare once and for all what that word is going to mean when it gets used, and to edit all past and future contributions to match that expectation.

My own preference is to start by accepting the fact that "dry" has two separate meanings for Martinis (1. dry because it's made with a large amount of dry Vermouth instead of with a large amount of sweet Vermouth; 2. dry because the amount of Vermouth is smaller than some standard), and to edit every use of the word "dry" to explain which one is being referred to.

Remember that the whole point of an encyclopedia is to inform those who *don't* already know. Assuming that readers already understand the confusing and peculiar jargon they came here to find out about is not a good idea. TooManyFingers (talk) 05:48, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

sourcelink
The sourcelink param in the infobox, which is used to generate the recipe link, leads to a dead link. Can someone figure out how to fix this? Instructions are at Template:IBA recipe. GA-RT-22 (talk) 17:56, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Vodka and gin
If nobody objects, I am going to merge Vodka martini into this article. We don't have articles on bourbon manhattans, margaritas with salt rims, or negronis on the rocks, nor are any of the facts in either article enough to warrant splitting. It reads to me that someone took boisterous pop media too far, some of which call vodka martinis "not true martinis". One of the best authoritative sources, more neutral and researched than most websites, The Oxford Companion to Spirits and Cocktails, does classify martinis as having vodka or gin. ɱ (talk) 15:30, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't object to the merge if that's all you're proposing. If you want to change the first sentence I think we should discuss that first. GA-RT-22 (talk) 02:09, 20 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Merging requires shuffling around content, so we'll need to include vodka somewhere in the lead. But that can wait for deciding on the merge. ɱ  (talk) 04:46, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
 * It sure sounds to me like you intend to do more than just a merge. Please follow the procedure in WP:MERGETEXT; in particular paste the new content as a separate edit before doing the shuffling and lead re-write. GA-RT-22 (talk) 23:15, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I have a decade of experience here, I can merge pages alright... ɱ  (talk) 04:05, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
 * With no objections to a merge; merging... ɱ  (talk) 19:12, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Quoted recipes
We have three recipes that are quoted from sources. The first two are not formatted in any special way except as a list. The third one is formatted as italics, which is not appropriate per MOS:ITALQUOTE. I suggest we format all three the same way, and if possible make it clear these are quotes. GA-RT-22 (talk) 20:03, 4 July 2022 (UTC)