Talk:Marvelous Marvin Hagler

Biased article
Wow! Just watched the Sugar Ray Leonard v Hagler fight. It was very close but whoever wrote the account of it here, you'd think it was all one-sided with Hagler cheated from the win. I thought leonard just edged it.

(82.16.132.183 (talk) 22:29, 16 April 2023 (UTC))

Year of Birth
Regarding his year of birth, from [3]:

"Angie Carlino (Hagler's personal photographer): Hagler, I think, fudged his age a little bit. He was going to get old before Ray. I remember his birth certificate read 1952, and then all of a sudden it became '54. When he fought Ray, he might have been about to turn 35, even though officially he was two years younger than that. He was closer to the end than people realized."

Has anyone ever asked Haggler directly? Would he ever admit it?
 * Marvin himself affirmed he was born in 54 and so does Pat Petroneli who says he added 2 years so Marvin would be eligible for the amateurs. but there has always been much speculation about it. In the run up to the fight Leonard jokingly asked 'how old are you Marvin'?

Untitled
"Hagler needed some gubernatorial help, but Arum pulled the strings, and finally, in November 1979, Hagler was in the ring with a world Middleweight champion."

I have no idea what the first part of this sentence means. "Gubernatorial help?" Hagler needed a governor to get him a title shot? What sort of "strings" did Arum pull? And, to nitpick, Antuofermo was the only world middleweight champ at the time, not "a" middleweight champ. MKil 13:36, 21 April 2006 (UTC)MKil

(what was the controversy?) Question posted on the article by an editor...

Answer: The controversy about the first Hagler-Antuofermo bout was that most ringsiders and fight observers thought Hagler had deserved to win running away. This is a topic of discussion in boxing circles that still goes on to this day. The fact Hagler had it so difficult to get a title shot in the first place widened the controversy.The book The Ring: Boxing in the 20th Century made a mockery out of the official draw decision by saying that Antuofermo's mother fainted during the bout, and Hagler fainted after the bout, when the decision was announced. (Hagler didn't faint, this was written only as a funny way of describing his dismay over a decision he obviously thought he'd earned widely).

Antonio Unpredictable Martin

It was a horrible decision. All three fights Hagler lost in his career were controversial decisions, and many people still say Hagler was undefeated everywhere but on the scorecards.

Even Antuofermo today admits that Hagler beat him. In fact, the two are friends, and Vito helped Hagler break into acting in Italy after his retirement.

John

-

The IMDB movie data bank says, Marvin is capverdian, and speaks fluent portuguese - what about that?? 213.102.98.181 08:21, 24 September 2006 (UTC) -

There is no substantive proof that Hagler is Cape Verdean. Afrofogey (talk) 06:22, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Legal Name Change
In the early 1980s Hagler legally changed his name to "Marvelous Marvin Hagler". There are court records and deeds filed in Plymouth County, Massachusetts which prove this. Should this article be retitled "Marvelous Marvin Hagler" and should his bio be changed to reflect that Marvelous was his first name, not his nick-name? 151.203.29.117 14:08, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Marvelous Marvin Hagler automatically redirects to Marvin Hagler, plus he is known universally as Marvin Hagler, so in a nutshell, no. Maya Levy 00:17, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I've changed it to be more in line with the entries for Cassius Clay and Lew Alcindor. Most of Hagler's notable fights were after his legal name change. There is no reason to treat the entires for Hagler differently than Ali or Jabbar's.151.203.204.133 (talk) 20:45, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes he legally changed his name, but the Muhammad Ali infobox still gives his original name as Cassius Marcellus Clay. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.132.221 (talk) 21:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

OK here we go again. Chad Johnson's article has been retitled to reflect his new legal name- Chad Ocho Cinco. The same should be done for Marvelous. 141.154.227.58 (talk) 22:10, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

If you run into him fishing in Bartlett, NH., best call him Marvelous, Mr. Hagler, or Champ. P.s., he really was the best middleweight ever. :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.4.244 (talk) 20:54, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Official Website
http://www.marvelousmarvin.com/

Removed crap, and spotted a contradiction
I removed this paragraph:

During the match, Hagler famously and repeatedly (and rightly) said to Leonard "come here annd fight you little bitch" as he chased him around the ring. However, most boxing commentators do not blame Leonard for his careful approach as Hagler could barely be classified as a human being (he literally ate up Tommy Hearns' right hands like he was Pac Man).

It's not in keeping with the Wikipedia style, and reads more like a bad forum posting than part of an encyclopedic article. As far as I know, Hearns still has his right hand, and Hagler certainly didn't 'literally' eat it.

Also, there's a contradiction in there. Early in the article it mentions Hagler getting knocked down, yet at the end it says he was never knocked down. Which is it? I can't edit this myself as I don't know... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.201.12.112 (talk) 15:46, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * : : Juan Domingo Roldan is the only person to officially knock Marvin down in a pro bout, however he contends it was a slip, the referee (incorrectly) calling a knockdown. Footage of the fight sort of backs this up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.75.202.202 (talk) 13:18, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

37 million $ - NO RELIABLE SOURCE
The claim that Hagler made 37 mill. $ for the fight has no source and should be removed. According to what I heard Hagler got 13,5 mio. $ and Leonard 12 mio. 13,5 mio. $ equals around 25 mill. $ today. 37 mill. is more than 70 mill. today. So either a RELIABLE source (fx. a major magazine, not an obscure website) or I think it should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fightdane (talk • contribs) 12:40, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

This page ought to be moved

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was page moved'. Skomorokh  09:52, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Since his name isn't "Marvin Hagler." The discussion above died out for no discernible reason. If there's a reason it hasn't been moved, that's that, but if not, I'm going to move it. Sluggo &#124;  Talk  22:54, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Marvin Hagler → Marvelous Marvin Hagler —  Sluggo  &#124;  Talk  20:53, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose even though 'Marvelous Marvin Hagler' is now his legal name. For most of his life & throughout his boxer career (which is what makes him notable), his name was 'Marvin Hagler'. GoodDay (talk) 23:04, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:COMMON. -- GoodDay (talk) 15:20, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * He changed his name in 1982, before his fights with Roberto Duran, Tommy Hearns, John Mugabi, and Sugar Ray Leonard, before he became the undisputed middleweight champion by beating Wilford Scypion, and before his film career. The change came at the height of his boxing career and before his most important fights.  Sluggo  &#124;  Talk  02:52, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, he was known as Marvelous Marvin during his boxing career (a nickname the sporting press gave him), but he didn't make it his legal name until after he retired. However, as we've got articles named Sugar Ray Leonard & Sugar Ray Robinson, I'll change my 'vote' as it's the most common name. GoodDay (talk) 15:20, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * ESPN says he changed it during his career, almost exactly before his biggest fights. Either way, keeping it just "Marvin" is like keeping it "Chad Johnson" instead of "Chad Ochocinco." Is the athlete in question a somewhat stupid egomaniac? Sure. But legally...  Sluggo  &#124;  Talk  20:27, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The only opposition to this change was 2+ years ago, and it's outnumbered (by my count) 5 to 1 with the Muhammad Ali mentioning IP's position unclear. The requested seven day wait has passed and the conversation it started achieved 100% consensus (2-0! Woo!), so as soon as I get a minute, I'll go through the process to complete the move. Şļџğģő  08:52, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

"I don't touch no white flesh."
This supposed remark by Hagler has become written into the online history of both Hagler and Minter, but every reference to it seems to stem from the same single source, i.e., Violence and sport / by Michael D. Smith. There is literally no citation of this remark that does not ultimately trace back to this one source. Worse, in some versions of the story, it's middleweight Kevin Finnegan that Hagler supposedly said it to, not Minter.

In short, this supposed remark is more internet "urban legend" than reality, with multiple "citations" all actually tracing back to the one source. It should not be repeated without verification, or at least a second source. And there is none that I can find.

By contrast, Minter's remark, that he would not lose to "a black man" - later "corrected" to "THAT black man" (meaning Hagler) was a verified quote reported by numerous sources (and admitted to my Minter) at the time. Whereas Hagler's supposed remark seems to have been inserted into the historical record years after-the-fact, as if to provide an impetus for Minter's remark.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.4.244 (talk) 20:38, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Long story short, I'm restoring it because the claim doesn't come from some random crank; Smith holds (or held at the time of publication) a Ph.D. and a professorship at York University in Toronto. Smith is (or was) an acknowledged expert in "sports violence." While his name is a bit common, it's likely that he has a research center (or, uh, "centre") named in his honor at York University. And we're calling information sourced to Smith "racist vandalism?" Absolutely not.
 * As for "Hagler's supposed remark seems to have been inserted into the historical record years after-the-fact, as if to provide an impetus for Minter's remark," that is a wholly unsubstantiated claim that basically reads Smith's mind and possibly violates Wikipedia's policy against original research.
 * Please read WP:NPA before you continue accusing an editor of committing "racist vandalism," as you did in your edit summary. Şłџğģő  20:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Both incidents are mentioned in this article,(http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1123817/1/index.htm) printed at the time and probably the source of the Dr's thesis.

"In front of too many people with notebooks the champion had announced in early September, "I am not letting any black man take the title from me." He claimed to have been angered by Hagler's alleged refusal to shake hands as the two were introduced in the ring in Las Vegas last November when Hagler fought a controversial draw with then-champion Vito Antuofermo."

But what Sports Illustrated says on the Hagler remark is: "Kevin Finnegan, a former European middleweight champion, said he had gotten the same treatment from Hagler at that fight, accompanied by the memorable words, "I don't touch white flesh.""

So it seems Kevin Finnegan ALLEGES Hagler said that to him and NOT to Minter. And then it goes on to state the fence mending following the incident: "In subsequent days, though, some fence-mending was done. Minter decided that what he actually said was "that black man," and Hagler, nattily outfitted in a three-piece pinstripe suit, presented himself to the British press and told reporters that his non-handshaking was non-racial: he never shakes hands with a fighter he might meet in the ring one day."

I'd say the bigger deal here is the riot that happenned after Hagler won in that he couldn't even hold his championship belt up after a fair victory in a civilised country. --Omar418 (talk) 15:24, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

TheEmbodimentOfResponsibility
As 'TheShadowCrow' has reverted the page back to his/her preferred version while its protected. perhaps they and 'TheEmbodimentOfResponsibility' can explain why,on Marvin Hagler's article, there is a picture of Sugar Ray Leonard with caption describing him as 'IBHOF Fighter of the Decade'. Perhaps then 'TheShadowCrow' can explain why my edits were removed without any explanation; such as Hagler considering retirement after the Mugabi fight; Tony Zale's reign included 4 years of inactivity due to WW2; Hagler retiring with the reason that he was tired of waiting for Leonard; HAgler's explanation for why he turned down Leonard's offer of a rematch 3 years later; mention of Leonard's eye trouble but not Hagler coming off 2 brutal wars against Hearns and Mugabi; and so on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sittingonacornflake (talk • contribs) 23:25, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I did it to remove a mess a sock has continued to create for weeks. Please, go haead and put up what you want. I'm sorry my edit interfered with yours. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 23:42, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh ok well Im sorry to I brought you into this then. I shall see whether 'TheEmbodimentOfResponsibility' responds.
 * Marv's place in history is as Ray's most famous dupe and punching bag. It was the case when he fought championship fights on Ray's undercard for chump change, it remained the case when he flew into town just to hear Ray announce a retirement, as it did when IBHOF recognised Ray as superior in the decade Marv kept the middleweight title ready for Ray to take, and of course when Ray suckered him in to fight and retired him.TheEmbodimentOfResponsibility (talk) 11:00, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Well that's not actually an answer but it's clear wikipedia is not the place for you. There are are plenty of internet forums for you to air your opinion of Marvin Hagler. I suggest you try them instead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sittingonacornflake (talk • contribs) 13:11, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Surely the article will be enlivened by pictures of others people and places mentioned in it, including the person that it's about. Photo placement is encouraged by the good article criteria — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.163.7.42 (talk) 21:28, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

For God's sake...
Why can't everyone agree on something? --TheShadowCrow (talk) 18:01, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Only appropriate for you to replace the 'everyone' with an 'I', pal.SternComradeLoyalFascist (talk) 00:48, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

You clearly weren't here for the Hagler fan edit war a couple weeks ago. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 00:54, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Enlighten me. What's needing verification or research? Glad to know that you're an entirely innocent neutral nonparticipating party.SternComradeLoyalFascist (talk) 02:09, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Something about Hagler's life after boxing. I have over 150 boxers on my watchlist. I have seen more edit war's on Hagler's page than all the other boxer articles. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 02:19, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Rightly so. He got punchy on his wife after he could never catch Ray Leonard and got humiliated in the way he was punched back and made a show of, which is a statement of character. She was in fear of her life, to which the judge agreed, and the bastard himself did not find the courage to contest. "Leonard Will Fall"; yea right, Leonard didn't even trip over: from 1 to 12 he barely even sneezed. Bully takedown job done. She took the fall. If you were bashed, stoned and cheated on and deserted by a professional thug of a husband but it was suppressed out of memory by his sports fanbois how'd you feel? And these are court findings and public records reported in reliable source wide circulation newspapers against his name. What do you stand for on that and why don't you make that stand? Or has it only ever entirely been 'other' people that 'can't agree' on it? Just curious. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SternComradeLoyalFascist (talk • contribs) 02:34, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
 * TheShadowCrow...you are talking to a sockCoffeepusher (talk) 05:24, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

TheShadowCrow is a (redacted) whos crappy edits make a complete mess of all the boxing pages.67.219.107.67 (talk) 16:02, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

A Leonard fanboy posturing about Hagler's personal troubles ? Thats funny. Seem to recall your poster boy has a well documented history of spousal and drug abuse. Read Sorcery at Caesars for an account of how the 'bully killer' Leonard treated his wife. As to Hagler, SRL could have fought a prime Hagler when it would have meant something. He chose to retire instead. Against an old, ringworn, ready for retirement Hagler in a 12 round 'championship fight' with big gloves and a ring the size of an ice rink, the best he could manage was the most controversial split decision of the last 30 years. He didn't even have the grace to give Marvin a rematch (I don't count that insulting offer in 1990 when Hagler had been retired 3 yrs). Take away Hagler and what else is there for Leonard: first WW champ in 40 yrs to lose to a lightweight, losing 10/14 rounds to Hearns before a fortunate stoppage, gift draw in the Hearns rematch in which he was knocked down twice, knocked flat on his back by Kevin Howard (who?),getting beat from pillar to post by Terry Norris. Not to mention being retired by an old fat Hector Camacho...... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.149.64.137 (talk) 20:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Just remind us all, did Ray take the championship through challenging and beating Marv in Marv's weightclass or was it the other way round? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Janoskian (talk • contribs)

In relation to the size of the ring and gloves
The ring was actually 24x24 and the gloves were 12 ounce gloves, so I'd appreciate if the Hagler fan that continues to cite the ring being 20x20 and the gloves being 10oz (I found that lie to be particularly hilarious, especially given the fact that not even modern heavyweights use 12 oz gloves) just stopped, because that level of bias - especially when we you're resorting to lies - simply has no place on this article or the site in general.

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Callingdogsofthunder (talk • contribs) 11:21, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * George Kimball's Four Kings states "The bout agreement called for a 20-foot ring". It doesn't mention the weight of gloves but states that Leonard reserved the right choose them and that Leonard insisted on the fight being fought over 12 rounds. This issue needs to be resolved by citing reliable sources, not by edit warring. --Michig (talk) 13:40, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * This source states "They would fight in a 20-foot ring and wear 12-oz gloves in a bout over 12 rounds, not 15." --Michig (talk) 13:42, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Blogs are not reliable sources. This source (ESPN) states Leonard made less guaranteed money against Hagler -- a first in his career -- as part of negotiations to determine the ring size (24x24 feet), glove weight (12 ounces) and rounds (12) in the fight. I also notice you took care to restore your own favored version before protecting the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.52.84.66 (talk) 10:08, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't have a favored version, but whatever we have in the article needs to be properly sourced. Your one source is a photo caption, and you think that should take precedence over one of the best boxing books out there? Do you not have any better sources? --Michig (talk) 17:51, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

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Death
Anyone find a citation for the cause of death? 66 seems young for an athlete, I would not be surprised that he damaged his body with steroids! Blockhouse321 (talk) 10:53, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
 * This information has not yet been released. I have no idea why it is not released. I think the most important question is whether it was due to some disease or illness, or e. g. suicide or homicide. I have absolutely no idea myself, so I would only have to speculate about that. Evidently the state officials must know because you need to write that down on some certificate; not sure why the general public is forbidden from knowing that ... it is weird because e. g. everyone knows the cause of death for Muhamad Ali, so why not for Hagler? Makes no sense to me. 2A02:8388:1602:6D80:C080:419D:679D:C9F8 (talk) 19:50, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
 * We must not ourselves speculate about his cause of death, including on this talk page, and we must not include poorly sourced rumours. See WP:BLPGOSSIP (which applies to the recently deceased). Fences  &amp;  Windows  09:17, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Why not on main page, eg under recent deaths? Bokoharamwatch (talk) 12:09, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Bokoharamwatch, there's quite a number of recent deaths, see Database reports/Recent deaths. You can nominate his death at In the news/Candidates. Fences  &amp;  Windows  14:53, 16 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Sources claiming bad reaction to Covid vaccine so very controversial at this point. Snopes says it is false rurmours. Kav2001c (talk) 17:07, 16 March 2021 (UTC)kav2001c


 * Claims of a bad reaction to a Covid-19 vaccine are not "controversial"; they are false. Hagler's widow, Kay Hagler, stated that he died "of natural causes" and explicitly denied rumors that a vaccination caused his death.  The origin of the rumors is described here: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/boxing/article-9360465/Anti-vaxxers-hijack-boxing-legend-Marvin-Haglers-death-aged-66.html HeraclitusEphesus (talk) 05:13, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Lead
The lead should say: "He reigned as undisputed champion of the middleweight division from 1980 to 1987, making twelve successful title defenses, all but one by knockout." The fact that one of those was a rematch is trivial and if it is highlighted at all, it should be later in the article.--Jahalive (talk) 16:12, 7 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Agreed - title reigns are usually spoken of in terms of number of defenses, ie Joe Louis is remembered for making 25 successful title defenses, not for beating x different fighters in those defenses. Also, why is the lead relying on Russian and Ukrainian websites as sources? Hagler's life and career has received ample coverage in the English-speaking world for the past 40+ years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sittingonacornflake (talk • contribs)
 * I'll admit that I haven't looked into this, but if we're talking about title reigns, then yes, rematches are obviously included. The only reason a rematch is discounted is when we're talking about "opponents beat in championship fights", which doesn't appear to be the issue going by what Jaha has said (again, I haven't even glanced at the content, but I trust Jaha isn't being dishonest). – 2 . O . Boxing  21:10, 28 July 2021 (UTC)


 * "Opponents beat in championship fights" is the issue. The number of title defenses is what is considered important by English sources and what should be in the lead. Opponents beat in championship fights can be mentioned later, if at all.-- Jahalive (talk) 22:28, 28 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I don't see a problem here. We have quite enough sources mentioning "opponents beat in championship fights" and enough sources talking about title defenses. If we have enough sources for both statements, then both statements should be there. They aren't mutually exclusive. -- Виктор Не Вацко (talk) 8:35, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It's redundant to have both of those statements in the opening paragraph, let alone the same sentence. Title defenses are mentioned by important boxing media, opponents beaten are mentioned by some foreign language sources not known for their boxing coverage. It's an easy choice to make.--Jahalive (talk) 00:55, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * At least two of those foreign sources are sports websites, the other one is a prominent newspaper in Russia. So no, I don't think it's an "easy choice", as you say. -- Виктор Не Вацко (talk) 11:09, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
 * If we are looking to reliable sources for how to describe something (in this case Hagler's title defenses) in the English Wikipedia, we should do it the way the English language sources do.--Jahalive (talk) 17:01, 22 February 2022 (UTC)