Talk:Marvin Gaye

Showing "Marvin Gaye" at beginning of lead
Since "Marvin Gaye" was how the subject presented himself in the entertainment industry, that constitutes his stage name, and in my judgment, needs to presented in total at the beginning of the lead. This is how the world knew of him and thus WP:COMMONNAME applies to the article time, so I don't see why this doesn't apply to the lead as well. Using language like "who also spelled his surname as Gaye" appears to minimize his use of this name, like it's not key. We currently have two editors to one who prefer to use the text "better known as Marvin Gaye", which seems to be the common way to show stage names in articles. That the first name is repeated doesn't seem to be wrong in particular. Stefen Towers among the rest!  Gab • Gruntwerk 22:53, 22 February 2024 (UTC)


 * , - If we can't figure out a way to resolve this, I would be open to an RFC and would accept the results. What do you both think?  Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 22:56, 22 February 2024 (UTC)


 * No RFC is needed, and calling "Gaye" a stage name is misleading when that incorrectly implies he went by something not derived from legal identity. It's not like how Paul Hewson is known as Bono or the way Carlos Estevez uses the alias of Charlie Sheen. Both of those guys took on something completely different from their formal names unlike Marvin here. The fact that you still advocate for using first name more than once in opening sentence also confirms my suspicions that you simply don't care how repetitive that is. Regardless, the article title using the "e" spelling already makes it obvious what he was "better known as". SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 01:50, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * You have me correct on something - I actually do not care at all that the subject's first name is repeated. I also don't know your reason for objecting to it beyond you expressing a displeasure about it. Do you know of a guideline that is violated by the repeating? Also, more particular to the discussion here is that I don't think you are considering that the language you have chosen minimizes the name "Marvin Gaye" that he is known the world over for. It's not simply another surname for the subject - it's the name he put on his albums, performances, etc. It is indeed a stage name. Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 01:57, 23 February 2024 (UTC)


 * On the contrary, going by an alternate spelling for albums, performances, or anything else isn't the same thing as using a very different name from your legal identity. You're still misusing the term "stage name" and shouldn't keep conflating this with mere spelling variations. As for the comment on how my change "minimizes" the informal spelling, that's a stretch when readers can figure out on their own how he used this along with "Gay" without an "e" attached by looking at the article title and seeing how similar the names are spelled. It's not like I tried to change the page's name to omit the "e". SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 02:18, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * "Marvin Gaye", no matter how you want to describe it, is a stage name. That a stage name cannot be similar to one's real name seems to have no basis, or at least you have not made a case based in a guideline. Also, this isn't about what the reader can figure out - it is the use of text that conveys an inaccuracy - that 'Gaye' is merely a different surname the subject used in the field of work they were famous for. "Marvin Gaye" is by far the predominant name he used in his career, so acting like it's just another name he used is insufficient. Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 02:31, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I've found one source saying he legally changed his name, but I don't really trust it, and there's no corroboration elsewhere. How did he sign checks? What did his driver's license say? Did he continue to use the name "Gay" at all, or did he drop it completely? --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 02:56, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I was going by the assumption based on our article content and anything I've ever known about him that he used 'Gaye' for his act. If there was a legal name change, it seems we would have covered that by now. The article does show his death certificate with last name spelled "Gaye" but it also apparently misspells his middle name -- so those could be just inaccuracies. If we can find reliable sources that show he changed his name, that would certainly affect how we address this, but in the meantime, "better known as Marvin Gaye" seems to cover what we need for now. Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 03:27, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Hey, look at what I found. His passport. In the name "Marvin Gaye". Signed "Marvin Gaye".. So there's an answer to one of my questions; he used Gaye onstage and on official documents. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 05:20, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * In our own stage name article, it says "Some people take a stage name because their real name ... projects an undesired image". He did it (per this article) "to silence rumors of his sexuality, and to put more distance between himself and his father." Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 02:48, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

StefenTower is trying too hard to justify treating slight discrepancies as "stage names". It's also completely absurd to say it "conveys and inaccuracy" to go with "also spelled his surname as". The reality is this shows how multiple spellings were used. If the "Gaye is a stage name for Gay" logic were true, then Dave Matthews as an example would've been counted as one simply for the minor difference of using the informal "Dave" nickname for "David". See how absurd this would sound? Contrast it with someone like Shawn Carter who goes by Jay-Z, Yaneisha Franklin being known as Sasha Go Hard, Elizabeth Grant having the stage name Lana Del Ray, or (going closer to legal identity) Alicia Cook using the alias Alicia Keys. As for the passport bit Jpgordon mentioned, that helps support what I thought of him using it as an alternate spelling. This isn't simply something used for musical endeavors. It also shows he didn't drop the middle name when adopting the version with an E. SNUGGUMS (talk / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 06:11, 23 February 2024 (UTC)


 * First off, it seems you are frequently straying away from WP:AGF in our discussions, seemingly making accusations over such a minor matter as a single sentence in an article. I have not been cross toward you on this matter - it's OK to disagree without being disagreeable. I have only disagreed with your position, but you seem to be operating in attack mode. It's not the wiki way.
 * Anyway, whether Marvin Gaye is a stage name or what became his legal name, either way, that's how he's known to the general public. Treating it like it's a sometimes alternative surname belies the marquee aspect of only one name, Marvin Gaye. The way it is stated now gives a false impression to the reader. Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 06:29, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * By the way, I will be starting an RFC because it does seem we're not getting any closer to an agreement, and we already practically have a third opinion by way of recent edits. So, RFC is the next step. With some fresh, cooler heads, we may be able to sort this all out. Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 06:35, 23 February 2024 (UTC)


 * My stance wasn't supposed to come off as an attack. If it did, then I apologize. I either way couldn't fathom why you'd treat small differences for names as being bigger than they were. What I went with most certainly does NOT give "a false impression to the reader", though; the truth is I simply indicated that he used "Gay" both with and without an E. When it doesn't look like anything got altered for first/middle names, it felt most efficient to only list them once in opening sentence. I still find RFC to be unnecessary when that would just drag this out for longer than it needs to be. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 06:42, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * "is trying too hard to justify" reads "attack-y". :) I'm not arguing for fun here, as your responses seem to suggest. I am serious about my claim.
 * At any rate, we obviously keep talking past each other, and that's why an RFC would be a good idea. You are very focused on the aspect of the minor name difference between 'Gay' and 'Gaye'. I see that. But it's also not the point. The point is he is widely known as Marvin Gaye, not widely known as Marvin Pentz Gay Jr. or Marvin Gay. The current language makes these names appear equivalent, and they are decidedly not. He likely never got on the stage as "Marvin Gay". Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 06:51, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Why not simply use a format like Marvin Gaye (born Marvin Pentz Gay Jr. .....)  ??  Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:47, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * If the primary sources that have turned up are considered good enough to show he legally changed his name early in his career, then that solution makes perfect sense. (a more definitive legal name change document or secondary sources would seal the deal on that approach, I think.) However, if Marvin Gaye wasn't his legal name, then it's a performing name, although still the name by which he is famous, and the above discussion is about how to handle that. Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 09:06, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Ghmyrtle, since he never legally dropped his middle name or suffix as far as I can tell, the format you propose would be misleading. The fact that memorial tributes for him were called "Marvin Gaye Jr. Memorial Scholarship Fund Day" and "Marvin P. Gaye Jr. Memorial Foundation" suggests those always remained part of his identity, as does having a son named Marvin III. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 13:05, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The current version is unduly wordy. Another, better, option would be: Marvin Pentz Gay Jr. (April 2, 1939 – April 1, 1984), known professionally as Marvin Gaye...     Perhaps the way forward is to list all the possible options and see which one commands most support and complies best with existing guidance.   Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:32, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * So does the fact that his passport says "MARVIN PENTZ GAYE" of any import here? It's pretty strong evidence that he presented himself that way to officaldom. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 15:14, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

The passport does help corroborate how the middle name stayed in place. Using "known professionally as" incorrectly implies he took on something not part of legal identity (it would be a stretch to say the E counts as a different name altogether), plus it needlessly repeats first name. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 15:19, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I browsed newspapers.com last night and saw mentions of Gaye changing his name at the beginning of his career, but I never saw phrasing like "legally changed". But perhaps the combo of his passport and death certificate, along with secondary source mentions of "changed his name" would be good enough to suffice. So the question then becomes "How do we present this as his legal name?". At the very least, IMHO, it should not be presented as a secondary thing, especially as Marvin Gaye is the name he is widely known for. It should be the primary name. Stefen Towers among the rest!  Gab • Gruntwerk 21:56, 23 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Something like: Marvin Pentz Gaye Jr. (born Marvin Pentz Gay Jr.; April 2, 1939 – April 1, 1984), who performed as Marvin Gaye, was an American singer and songwriter. -- yes, it repeats name words, but I can't see how this approach is forbidden. Of course, if this can be stated with greater word economy, and also doesn't take away the prominence of his performing name, I can be fine with that. Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 22:10, 23 February 2024 (UTC)  Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 22:10, 23 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Alternative: Marvin Pentz Gaye Jr. (April 2, 1939 – April 1, 1984), who performed as Marvin Gaye, was an American singer and songwriter. -- we could reserve display/discussion of birth name for the infobox and article prose. Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 22:19, 23 February 2024 (UTC)


 * For what it's worth, I did see pieces like these discussing the fatal 1984 shooting which use E spelling for both Marvin Jr. and surprisingly Marvin Sr. as well. Not entirely sure whether that's a typo for the latter or a sign of him adopting the same spelling. If the E version was meant to be a permanent change (this would explain why Marvin III and his other kids also have it) and it's not a case of alternate usage akin to Michael Jackson using both "Joe" and the more formal "Joseph" as middle names for different things (which had been my impression before this thread began), then I recommend going with "Marvin Pentz Gaye Jr. (née Gay; April 2, 1939 – April 1, 1984)" when there's no credible evidence any first/middle name changes. It wouldn't downplay anything about him or have any name redundancies. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 23:06, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * "né Gay", of course. Or rather, Gay. I'd like to see some evidence of him using "Gaye Jr.". --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 01:03, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I thought it already was obvious that he did based on those links and the fact that posthumous tributes to him that I mentioned earlier (and discussed within "Awards and honors" section) use it in their titles. Furthermore, without him keeping the suffix, his namesake son couldn't possibly have had III as a suffix.
 * Oh yeah. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 04:33, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

So, does the above (most recent replies) mean we have agreement on writing the following: "Marvin Pentz Gaye Jr. (Gay; April 2, 1939 – April 1, 1984), who performed as Marvin Gaye, was an American singer and songwriter."? Of course, we can fill in cites wherever needed in due course. Stefen Towers among the rest!  Gab • Gruntwerk 20:30, 24 February 2024 (UTC)


 * No. We don't need the "who performed as" at all. That will be obvious by (a) the article title, (b) the infobox, and (c) every other reference in the article. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 00:15, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, the first sentence sets the tone, and if we're starting with effectively calling him Marvin Gaye Jr., that could throw off readers genuinely new to the topic. "who performed as Marvin Gaye" gives a primary explanation for the article title and infobox uses. Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 00:18, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Hardly necessary. We don't say "Francis Albert Sinatra, who performed as Frank Sinatra". We don't say "John Joseph Nicholson, who performed as Jack Nicholson". --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 00:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I certainly see your point but "Jr." creates the issue the lead should resolve. The subject never presented himself as "Jr." in the entertainment business. The examples you gave are straightaway name conversions. We don't have that in this case. Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 00:37, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Why is that an issue at all? It doesn't seem to be a difficulty at Marlon Brando, Will Smith, Robert Redford, Burt Reynolds, Clint Eastwood, Bill Cosby... --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 01:15, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

In all honesty, his suffix isn't a problem at all and there's nothing wrong with the opening sentence maintaining that. Jpgordon's rationale for why we don't need the "who performed as" bit is 100% correct, and the examples given on Sinatra and Nicholson convey my exact thoughts for the matter. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 02:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)


 * OK, for the sake of a solution for now, leave out that clause, and I reserve the right to RFC the whole lot (including Brando and the rest) later. I think that aspect is worth a community discussion on the grounds I have already laid out. Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 02:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Denomination in which he was raised
If the denomination in which Gaye was raised was essentially a Black Hebrew Israelite sect, and had elements of Judaism, why is this fact mentioned in other articles about Marvin Gaye, but not this Wikipedia article? 98.123.38.211 (talk) 02:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Hip Hop 50
— Assignment last updated by R0bwill12 (talk) 22:31, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

How "Jr." is displayed at beginning of article
Here is a place to discuss. Apparently, Gaye's real name contained Jr. upon death per File:Marvin gaye death cert.jpg. Stefen Towers among the rest!  Gab • Gruntwerk 06:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I changed it back to the change because it may well be correct to show he was born as Jr., but I do think we need to consider how to handle the apparent fact he kept "Jr." in his name and how that should be displayed. Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 06:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC)