Talk:Marvin Minsky/Archive 2

Pin to RFC text
Until the full process completes, should we roll back and pin the text to the ostensible consensus from the RFC? I personally find it less POV than the current text. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 20:49, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Your link points to the current version. Which version do you think is better? --Macrakis (talk) 21:30, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The RFC version is better than the current version I linked to. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 01:53, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Understood. Which revision exactly are you saying you find better? --Macrakis (talk) 22:40, 12 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The version from the RfC above, let me try to copy it here if that helps:

Relationship with Jeffrey Epstein
Minsky organized a conference on common sense and artificial intelligence in St. Thomas in 2002 with financial support from Jeffrey Epstein, who in 2008 was convicted of procuring for prostitution a girl below age 18. In 2012, Epstein mentioned this conference to "[try] to rehabilitate his image".

In a 2016 deposition, unsealed in 2019, Virginia Giuffre testified that Ghislaine Maxwell, an associate of Epstein, had directed her to have sex with Minsky and other men. , there has been no independent corroboration of this, and none of the men have been charged with a crime or sued in connection with this. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 05:14, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose This version omits a key detail: Minsky’s widow denied that Minsky ever cheated on her when with Epstein. Also, I am getting a little tired of Rolf Nelson’s non-stop attempts to try to make this article as negative as possible about Minsky, and think his non-stop attempts at POV-pushing is starting to become downright disruptive.  Here is the version I support keeping (the current version):

Association with Jeffrey Epstein

Minsky received a $100,000 research grant from Jeffrey Epstein in 2002, four years before Epstein's first arrest for sex offenses; it was the first from Epstein to MIT. Minsky received no further research grants from him.

Minsky organized two academic symposia on Epstein's private island Little Saint James, one in 2002 and another in 2011, after Epstein was a registered sex offender. Virginia Guiffre testified in a 2015 deposition in her defamation lawsuit against Epstein associate Ghislaine Maxwell that Maxwell directed her to have sex with Minsky among others. There is no independent corroboration of the sex allegations, and there has been no lawsuit against Minsky's estate. Minsky's widow, Gloria Rudisch, says that he could not have had sex with any of the women at Epstein's residences, as they were always together during all of the visits to Epstein's residences. Samboy (talk) 07:53, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Time: "Minsky’s widow, Gloria Rudisch, denied he had sex with Giuffre or any other girls, telling the New York Post that the couple had visited Epstein a few times, but that she was always with her husband."

NYPost: "Minsky’s widow, Gloria Rudisch, denied to The Post that he had sex with Giuffre or any of the other girls at Epstein’s residences. She said that she and Minsky visited Epstein’s residences in New York and Palm Beach “three or four times at the most” and that they always went as a couple."

Where are you getting 'they were "always together" during all of the visits to Epstein's residences' from? Rudisch never denies that Minsky couldn't have had access to Giuffre without Rudisch around; to which point, we should also include WP:RS that a witness testified to Minsky and Giuffre on a plane with others. And, per WP:NPOV we should include other information that is similarly strongly sourced, such as that Giuffre testified to having had sex with Minsky, and that Giuffre testified that she was trafficked to Minsky.

Rolf H Nelson (talk) 04:53, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

So, to clarify, we are agreed then that we're not reverting to the text proposed in the RfC, and that we're instead opening discussion of what the text should say? If so, I'll go ahead and inform other communities within Wikipedia to get broader input. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 04:44, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I have removed the quotes around "always together", since that violated MOS:SIC. The sentence otherwise summarizes, using original wording to avoid WP:COPYVIO, his widow’s claim that Minsky never had a chance to be with one of the girls one-on-one.  Being on a plane with someone is not the same as sleeping with someone, and I agree that sentence does not belong in this summary.  I have already explained that Giuffre never out right said she had sex with Minsky, and the article already says “Maxwell directed her to have sex with Minsky”, as per the reliable sources.  Before opening up an RFC because one’s edits is going against the consensus of the majority of other editors here, I would read this essay Samboy (talk) 06:06, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Are you saying you disagree with my statement "Rudisch never denies that Minsky couldn't have had access to Giuffre without Rudisch around"? Rolf H Nelson (talk) 06:45, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * 'In a "one-against-many" dispute, it is a somewhat common occurrence[1] that the editors who are working on a page come to a good-faith consensus that the larger community would not agree with. If you really think that this is the case, you can post a request for comment (RfC) and invite outside editors to comment... So, how do you know whether an RfC has a good chance of going your way? In general, whichever side has the most reliable sources and follows those sources the closest prevails.' I have two reliable sources stating that Giuffre testified about having sex, multiple sources testifying that she went to have sex or that she was trafficked, and no sources denying that she thusly testified. Thanks for the encouragement! Rolf H Nelson (talk) 06:45, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I will no longer reply to you on this talk page. You are beating a dead horse and your views, which constitute a rather novel reading of the reliable sources, go against the consensus of this talk page.  Samboy (talk) 07:06, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Rolf h nelson, I agree with Samboy that you are beating a dead horse. Precisely the issues you bring up have already been discussed at length on this page, only a few months ago, and there is no new information. --Macrakis (talk) 14:25, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Macrakis, if some new information came out, such as an interview with Virginia Giuffre (in a reliable source) where she discusses more clearly what she remembers about her interactions with Minsky, or perhaps a reliably sourced mention that Gregory Benford recalls that Minsky didn’t cheat on his wife, or if other women claim (again, in reliable sources) Minsky committed adultery with them, I would of course be open to revising this article (even if it was Rolf Nelson who brought up the new information). But nothing has been mentioned in any reliable source since the scandal was all over the press last fall, and consensus is to keep the current text.  Samboy (talk) 16:06, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, yes, that's exactly what I said. --Macrakis (talk) 16:28, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

It's been about two weeks, I take it nobody on the page has anything further to say about the wording of the Gloria Rudisch quote? Rolf H Nelson (talk) 05:34, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Third opinion
- More than 2 editors are participating in this discussion, therefore, it does not meet the criteria for 3O Galendalia CVU Member \ Chat Me Up 07:34, 11 May 2020 (UTC) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.


 * Viewpoint by (User:Rolf h nelson): If the quote from Minsky's widow Rudisch is included, it should not have the text '...they were always together during all of the visits to Epstein's residences'. Instead, as per sources, it should state something like '...they were always together during their "three or four visits" to Epstein's residences', as Rudisch is not claiming to somehow know whether Minsky did or didn't visit at some point on his own. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 22:57, 10 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Viewpoint by (name here): ....

- Please be sure to sign your posts as I find it confusing who is typing what in this discussion.
 * Third opinion by Galendalia: ....

Wording for a proposed RfC
Any thoughts on this as wording for an RfC:

Which is better wording for Marvin Minsky:

1. Minsky's widow, Gloria Rudisch, says that he could not have had sex with any of the women at Epstein's residences, as they were always together during all of the visits to Epstein's residences.

2. Minsky's widow, Gloria Rudisch, denies that he had sex with any of the women, and states she and Minsky were always together during their "three or four" visits to Epstein's residences.

Addition to Template Jeffrey Epstein sex trafficking scandal Accused
Marvin Minsky was accused in a lawsuit by Virginia Roberts Giuffre of having sex with her. Since the category says accused Minsky would fit in as he was accused. https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/9/20798900/marvin-minsky-jeffrey-epstein-sex-trafficking-island-court-records-unsealed — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nice Stories (talk • contribs) 19:36, 10 August 2020 (UTC)


 * You apparently haven't read the discussion above. Giuffre, in a lawsuit against Ghislaine Maxwell, accused Maxwell of "directing her to have sex" with Minsky. She did not testify that she actually had sex with Minsky. Minsky was never sued by Giuffre and was never indicted. All of this is discussed in great detail above, and there was an RFC which was closed months ago. --Macrakis (talk) 19:51, 10 August 2020 (UTC)


 * To add to what Macrakis said, Virginia Giuffre continues to publish documents and get media coverage, but nothing new about her alleged relationship with Minsky has come up; I see Macrakis had to, this week, revert yet another single purpose account who tried to re-introduce the same old dubious Verge article. I have gone to the bother of looking over the manuscript to her "Billionaire's Playboy Club" manuscript, and she does not mention Minsky once in the entire nearly 77,000-word book.  Samboy (talk) 17:18, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Death & cryopreservation
"It is not known whether he has been cryopreserved" - bull-fucking-shit! The Alcor statement basically spells it out for you as well as in any way possible given the limitation that they can't confirm or deny it directly. Maybe the article should at least mention that it is "likely" he has been cryopreserved, given that he was handed the bracelet by Drexler (as the Alcor statement confirms). -88.71.115.157
 * I'm the one put that text in. Your interpretation of the bizarre Alcor statement is *probably* correct (though if so, IMHO the statement does an extremely poor job of maintaining Minsky's presumed confidentiality request); IMHO your interpretation does seem more likely than the alternative explanation that they deliberately want to maintain a false rumor that he was frozen, either to create buzz or to avoid further media questions if there was kind of negative incident. That said, even if he did have confidential arrangements to be cryopreserved, we don't know whether he actually *was* cryopreserved; for example, the family might have intervened to prevent cryopreservation. Personally if there's no objections from anyone else, I'm fine with something like "Following his death, Alcor issued an unusual statement stating it could neither confirm nor deny whether Minsky had arrangements for cryonic suspension." and citing the Alcor statement. If you dig around and find verifiable proof either way, IMHO we can waive WP:WEIGHT and put it in as a routine biographic detail (manner of death); I'm not sure why it would be a priority for you to establish someone's been cryopreserved if he said he wants it to be confidential, but if you find proof I have no objection to including it in the article. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 04:25, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
 * What you propose sounds reasonable, given the sources. Reify-tech (talk) 21:57, 16 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Ray Kurzweil Remembers Marvin Minsky

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIK3X2fKJrE Around 10:50 Ray discusses Alcor calling him. I don't know if Wikipedia policy will allow videos, but Ray's statement is informative, actually downright inspiring. I happen to know how this was resolved, but in deference to Alcor's statement, I won't say more now than what Ray said. Keith Henson (talk) 17:14, 19 October 2020 (UTC)