Talk:Mary Dee/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Wasted Time R (talk · contribs) 15:13, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

I have begun reviewing this article. Wasted Time R (talk) 15:13, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Looking forward to the opportunity to improve it. SusunW (talk) 15:37, 10 October 2020 (UTC)


 * GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

A very nice article and long overdue, but some additional aspects could be added or emphasized
 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
 * A few minor prose/MoS issues in the text, see below
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):  d (copyvio and plagiarism):
 * A few minor MoS issues in the references, see below
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * Some additional points could be covered, see below
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars, etc.:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * Good images, but captions could use a little further description
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:

Regarding prose and MoS things:

The link in the lede for WHOD should be to WAOB (AM), which has the actual history of that Pittsburgh station. (The link is correct in the article body.)
 * ✅ SusunW (talk) 17:40, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

She moved her show, Movin' Around with Mary Dee to Baltimore – comma needed after title
 * ✅ SusunW (talk) 17:40, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

in Homestead, Allegheny County, Pennsylvania to Mary - comma needed after state
 * ✅ SusunW (talk) 17:40, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Mal, first black network television correspondent, who worked for ABC-TV;[5] – I know this source uses the term, but there is really no such thing as 'ABC-TV'. There is the American Broadcasting Company network and its divisions, and there is Channel 7 WABC-TV, the New York City station that is the flagship affiliate of the network. But actually the best entity to refer to here would be ABC News, which is the specific part of the network that hired him in 1962 – see this New York Times obit of Mal Goode from 1995.
 * ✅ SusunW (talk) 17:40, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I noticed you changed the link, but you didn't add the New York Times source? It would be a good addition to the article, not only because it clarifies who Mal Goode worked for but it emphasizes that this family produced a couple of pioneers.  Wasted Time R (talk) 21:50, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I cannot access the New York Times, let me clarify, I can see it, but cannot read it, as I don't have a subscription. Sometimes if links have been saved in Wayback, I can access, but this one has not been. I am happy to add the link, if you think it is critical, and AGF that it clarifies his position and that of his family. ✅ SusunW (talk) 13:54, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

fn 7 p. 2:1 is kind of unclear and looks like a typo even though it isn't; maybe say "Section 2, p. 1"?
 * ✅ SusunW (talk) 17:40, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

fn 28 should be pp. and the range should be given using an endash instead of a hyphen.
 * No clue how to input an endash (I know virtually nothing about WP coding and am constantly having to reach out to others with technical issues), I run a script after I type it that is supposed to convert them. Changed p to pp. SusunW (talk) 17:40, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The endash is in there now. However there is a red "Check |archiveurl= value" flag on one of the Bibliography entries.  Wasted Time R (talk) 21:50, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Fixed it. ✅ SusunW (talk) 14:48, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

They aren't wrong, but my view is that the retrieval dates you have in the Bibliography for Newspapers.com sources are unnecessary. Retrieval dates are really only needed for web pages that aren't dated themselves – see WP:CITEWEB and the subsection on citing newspapers just above that. The downside of using them here is that they clutter up the Bibliography entries visually with a lot 2020s when in fact most of the sources are from the 1950s and 1960s.

Regarding article content:

Why did Mary Goode leave Howard before graduating? The reason would be interesting to know – was it financial problems, disinterest in academics, societal pressure to get married and start a family, something else?
 * No source that says that but doing math, if she was born in 1912 and graduated high school at 18 or 19 and did 2 years of university, we're at 1933. Her oldest child was born ca. 1934, so that'd be my guess. SusunW (talk) 18:20, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

What was her husband's occupation?
 * According to the census, he was a steel worker. Added that ✅ SusunW (talk) 18:20, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

As a 35-year-old with four children, what made her decide to try to get into radio? Seems like a pretty dramatic move. Had she any previous experience in radio, such as at Howard?
 * Again, I am totally guessing, but my guess is that's about when she got divorced. I could find nothing at all about Franklin C. Dudley other than the death certificate and census record. No idea why she decided to go into radio. My guess is that there would be more articles about her in the Associated Negro Press, but those are behind a Proquest paywall in a special collection that one does not get with a regular subscription to Proquest (Can you tell I have researched this issue before?) SusunW (talk) 18:20, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Dee pioneered a radio format that combined coverage of community affairs with music and news. – What are some examples of other radio shows that followed in the same format? Were the people who hosted those later shows influenced by Dee, or did they just happen to come up with a similar format?
 * No idea from the sources I could find. Alma Vessell John's radio work used a similar format and they worked together, so it is highly possible, but sourcing it would be the crux. SusunW (talk) 18:20, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I think a little more should be said about how the Hill District was a cultural center of African American life in the city and was a major center of jazz nationwide - "the Crossroads of the World" - and how Mary Dee's radio show was an element of that. This 2015 piece in the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review is a good source for this. And incidentally, the Hill District (Pittsburgh) article has a mention of Mary Dee that now needs a link.
 * Collaboration always improves things. Fixed the link in the Hill District article and added a bit about it here. Thanks for the source! ✅ SusunW (talk) 18:20, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The text you added is good, but you should make clear that Dee was considered part of that scene – a connection that the source supports.  Wasted Time R (talk) 21:50, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅ SusunW (talk) 14:48, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

It might be useful to say what kind of wattage these stations had at the time and how wide their reception area was. Were there any estimates of how large Dee's audience was in terms of numbers of listeners?
 * This is a much harder question than it appears to be. This says it was a "modest" station. this indicates that the station had "250 watts of daytime power". (I have no clue what that translates to as far as reception). As for her following, I have no real idea. The Ebony article says "She has a tremendous following, averages about 165 fan letters a day" (It also says "Mary Dee is reputedly the top female disc jockey in the U. S. Broadcasting her "Movin' Around" show on Pittsburgh's WHOD for more than 20 months now". Reputed by whom, I have no clue. Sounded like hype, so I didn't include it.) I added a sentence combining that information to the bottom of the first paragraph in "Career". ✅ SusunW (talk) 19:13, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
 * 250 watts is low, but effect signal range varies a lot depending upon place of transmitter, local topography, residential building types, etc. I think what you've put in is good.  Wasted Time R (talk) 21:50, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

What was the format of her Baltimore show? From the show name, sounds like it might have been similar to the Pittsburgh show? And what was the format of her Philadelphia show? That name suggests it might have been more exclusively music-focused?
 * No idea on either of these. I was totally surprised in searching the Afro that the only newspaper entries I found when she was in Baltimore were ads. Googling "Songs of Faith" returns nothing about Dee. Googling it in conjunction with Dee only shows that it aired Monday through Saturday, but all of the entries are blogs. SusunW (talk) 19:13, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Regarding the format of her Philadelphia show, the Baltimore Afro American 1964 source you have says it was a gospel music program, which lines up with what some radio history web pages say. The 1964 source also says that she hosted live gospel music shows in Philadelphia, which is worth including in the article.  And it gives her address, which was in the Strawberry Mansion neighborhood of North Philadelphia.  So that could be added to the article, as well as inclusion in Category:People from Philadelphia.  Wasted Time R (talk) 21:50, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I am so thankful that you know which of these details are important. Time and place give context for understanding. ✅ SusunW (talk) 14:48, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Did her shows gain any significant white audiences, or just black ones? According to this 2013 Pittsburgh Tribune-Review story, her nephew says that her Pittsburgh show had white advertisers as well as black advertisers.
 * No idea about the make up of who listened to her. SusunW (talk) 19:31, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The Garland 1964 source says that the 'Gospel Train' segment of her show had "fans of every race", so you can certainly add that. And given that, I think you can then follow it by saying that her nephew later recollected that the show had white-owned advertisers as well as black-owned advertisers.  Wasted Time R (talk) 21:50, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅ SusunW (talk) 14:48, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

The Ulysses Kae Williams article says there was a Mary Dee Award for outstanding community service and broadcasting; would be worth adding if can determine who gave out the award and how long it lasted.
 * The only thing I can find about the award is in this blog, which says Williams was the first recipient in 1978. Searched google as well as newspapers.com and find nothing about the award, nor any entries for awards given by the Philadelphia Record Promoters Association. Doesn't mean there aren't any, just not in my search from Mexico. Other locations will produce other search results. SusunW (talk) 19:31, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Regarding images:

The 1954 photo caption needs a little more explanation of what is happening - was she broadcasting from her brother's pharmacy, or was this just a publicity photo promoting both the Goode Drug Stores and the Mary Dee show?
 * It was clipped from an advertisement, so is publicity. Added that ✅ SusunW (talk) 19:31, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

The 1962 photo caption also needs a little more explanation - what is the award, who is Dolly Banks, and how did the likes of Jackie Robinson and MLK get involved in the presentation of it? The NYT obit for Mal Goode mentioned above says that Mal was a friend of Robinson, so that might explain part of it.
 * The magazine calls it the Brotherhood Award and it was given at the Baptist Ministers' Conference, which pretty much explains MLK. Not sure why Jackie Robinson is in the photo. Dolly Banks really should also have her own article. She was a pioneering radio station owner.,, and ,. I added an explanation for the award and made Banks a redlink. SusunW (talk) 19:54, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Anyway, this is a solid article and a long overdue addition to WP. I realize that sources may not be available on some of the things I've asked about, and if they aren't, so be it. But otherwise I think the article will benefit from including these aspects. Wasted Time R (talk) 16:21, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I've answered what I could. As you noted, sources are hard to come by for women and minorities in this time period. However, sometimes I have noticed that once we have an article, things come out of the woodwork, so in time, we may be able to expand it again. I really appreciate your questions as your perspective is different than mine. You asked questions about radio that would never have occurred to me looking at the article through a women's history lens. Just ping me, if there's more to work on. SusunW (talk) 20:00, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Fully understand about sources and about what may show up in the future. I've added follow-ups above about certain items.  Wasted Time R (talk) 21:50, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I think I have addressed them all, but if not, just let me know. I really appreciate your comments and contributions as they add depth and perspective to the article. SusunW (talk) 14:48, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, all is resolved and I have passed the article for GA. In the interest of saving another go-around, I added two paragraph breaks that I previously thought would be beneficial but forgot to include in my comments.  You can take them out if you disagree.  And thanks for the kind words about the suggestions in the review, however full credit goes to you for bringing this subject to light.  I was vaguely aware of Mal Goode's reporting on television, but I had never heard of Mary Dee until I saw this article.  Wasted Time R (talk) 22:34, 14 October 2020 (UTC)