Talk:Mary Hays (American Revolutionary War)

Water for swabbing cannons
There's no source for the fact that Mary actually brought water for swabbing cannons, not drinking. Broken Key (talk) 00:58, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, there doesn't need to be a source for the fact that if Molly Pitcher even brought water for swabbing cannons, so...it all sums up to not needing any source since it doesn't have this piece of fallacious statement. Sorry. Cheers!--  Allied Rangoon‧talk   23:37, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Whatever that last statement is intended to mean, it remains true that, while her presence with the army in 1777-78 is recorded, there is no evidence for the role allegedly performed by Mary Ludwig Hays at the battle of Monmouth CH, either serving water to the troops or taking her husband's place manning a cannon. There is only mid-C19th hearsay.

When the remarried 'Mrs Molly MacCauley' died in 1832, her obituary in local press recorded only|"She lived during the days of the American Revolution, sharing its hardships, and witnessed many scenes of blood and carnage. To the sick and wounded she was an efficient aid."

If, as claimed  20 years later, she was  "the  remembered heroine, the celebrated “Molly Pitcher,” pointed out in the street as 'the woman who fired the cannon at the British when her husband was killed,' that fact was overlooked in her obituary. By 1876 it was being claimed in addition  that she had been buried with military honours. A fact also overlooked in Molly Mcauley's obituary

What we do have is the documented service of Margaret Corbin, wounded while serving a gun in the defence of Fort Washington in November 1776 and who, as 'Captain Molly,' lived out her life as a pensioner at West Point, dying in 1800, and Joseph Plumb Martin's account, published in 1830 (fifty year's after the event), of the unanamed womam serving a gun at Monmouth CH.

The figure of 'the famed Captain Molly at Monmouth ' who downed her pail of water to replace her dead husband manning a gun at Monmouth CH and was saluted by Washington, is not found recorded before 1830: '“While Captain Molly was serving some water for the refreshment of the men, her husband received a shot in the head, and fell lifeless under the wheels of the piece. The heroine threw down the pail of water, and crying to her dead consort, ‘lie there my darling while I avenge ye,’ grasped the ramrod, … sent home the charge, and called to the matrosses to prime and fire. It was done….”

Coincidentally 1830 was the year the first man broke his whiskey leg(fake leg filled with liquor) way she goes, thus, The underground railroad happened.

'They Called Her Molly Pitcher'
Rockwell, Anne. 'They Called Her Molly Pitcher.' New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 2002.

I question whether a book written for children can be quoted as a bona fide source in this article; perhaps as evidence for popular belief but not as evidence for an asserted historical fact. JF42 (talk) 20:26, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Afterwards, she was known as "Sergeant Molly,"
Afterwards, she was known as "Sergeant Molly," a nickname that she used for the rest of her life.

As far as I am aware, it was Margaret Corbin who bore the nickname 'Captain Molly', rather than Mary Hays, whose association with the 'Molly Pitcher' tradition emerged after her death JF42 (talk) 20:38, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Split?
Mary Ludwig Hays currently redirects here, and much of this article is about her, yet the term Molly Pitcher seems to have a broader meaning, and there is at least one other person (who does have her own article) who can claim to be the inspiration for it. I suggest we split the information on Mary Ludwig Hays to its own article (she is notable enough for that) with a summary paragraph here, and make Molly Pitcher a general article on the term and the applications. Comments? Moonraker12 (talk) 20:28, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

There's been no objection here these last two months, so I've gone ahead and done it. I trust everyone is OK with that. Moonraker12 (talk) 03:19, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Page move
Further to the (rather one-sided) discussion above, I have moved this article from Molly Pitcher to here ("Mary Hayes (American Revolutionary War)")prior to splitting the Molly Pitcher content out, to preserve the edit history. Now the information on Mary Hays has its own page, and the information on the Molly Pitcher story does too. Just to clarify...Moonraker12 (talk) 23:30, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

What happened BEFORE the war?
Not much, I guess — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:50:FAC0:2167:8E21:94A5:90CD (talk) 21:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

One Opinion: Poor Sources
I haven't exhausted all avenues, but the sources in this article seem poor. With the exception of the National archives article by Emily J. Teipe, it seems to lack solid historical sources. (I have learned that even well-known historians can be biased.) Here is one quote from the Teipe article which seems to sum it up: "There are several versions of this story as well. Either George Washington merely complimented Mary Hays, thanked her, or bestowed some reward. Walter Blumenthal states that Washington gave Mary a gold piece and promoted her to sergeant for her bravery during the Battle of Monmouth; however, there is no evidence in the military records of her having been promoted." Some editors swear by what is "written in stone". Not me. I don't think anything related to the DAR, Parks service, commemorations, or monuments should be used as a Wikipedia source. Pension records or similar documents are reliable except in details. But that's just my opinion so I'm not flagging the article in any way. If you are working on the article, feel free to ignore my thoughts. Humphrey Tribble (talk) 04:34, 16 January 2024 (UTC)