Talk:Mary I of England/Archive 1

Names of US locations
New user Bigelow added this material recently, which I have moved here for discussion, because I believe it is nonsense and should be deleted entirely:

Mary's influence in Ireland was possibly the secret reason behind Lord Baltimore's naming of Maryland, which "should have been" named Henriettaland. An often overlooked fact, is that Mary also had regal status in dominion over her husband's territories and Mary's reign as Queen of Spain supplied her with a fortune from New Spain. The choice of site and naming of the American capital is thought to have been derived from Catherine of Aragon's parental preeminence in the conquest of the Americas, with Christopher Columbus as their claim to fame.

Here's why I think the above should go away: The state of Maryland wasn't founded until 75 years after Queen Mary died. It was intended as a place in which Catholics would be welcome, and was named after (sources differ on this) either the Virgin Mary or the wife of King Charles I. The site of the US Seat of Government was not decided until Queen Mary had been dead for 200 years. The term "Columbia" was used by the American colonials, who knew all about Christopher Columbus and directly drew the association themselves between where they now lived and his discoveries. They would have had no especial reason to contrive a name based upon what a relative of one of Henry VIII's six wives had been a party to. The "possibly" and "thought to have been" clauses in the disputed text confirm, I believe, that it is pious tales and not facts. --StanZegel 05:10, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

French throne
Hmmm, maybe there were claims to the throne of France from Britain, but were they legitimate? That would mean France had two monarchs all along, huh?? There was especially no legitimate claims in my view to the throne France from Britain since Joan of Arc. If I don't get a reasonable explanation in 24 to 48 hours I may revert the revert. --65.73.0.137


 * Well, I don't know what you'd call legitimate... there's nothing to stop more than one claimant to a throne (maybe you've heard of King Michael of the United Kingdom? It turns out he's an Australian republican), and there are of course the Stuart Pretenders. Anyway, the point remains, that the claim on the French throne continued to be asserted right up to 1800, even if the French told them to get knotted, and the claim is documented on every single English/British coin minted in the period (see History of the English penny for details). -- Arwel 01:16, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Despite tbe issues on claim to the throne of France, they are not necessarily factual, no matter how widespread the claim was. It is very doubtful that France recognized two monarchs, and though their claims were asserted, they were not necessarily true. --65.73.0.137

The claim goes back to Henry V I Believe, whose Mother was the daughter of a French King (I can't remember which one right now). The French King had no surving male heirs, so according to the English, the throne should have passed to Henry through his mother. But the French used the Salic Law, which does not allow descent through a female line. The monarchs of England continued to style themselves monarchs of France, and had the fluer de lis quartered on their arms. I believe this was finally abanonded in the reign of Victoria. Kevin Q.

Actually the claim began with Edward III of England (read more here). The title was finally dropped by George III of the United Kingdom in 1800 by the Act of Union 1800. He dropped his claim to the throne of France and removed the fleur de lis from his coat of arms. Prsgoddess187 12:33, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Referencing
Henry VIII had i believe two sons both called Prince Henry; one of which was stillborn and the other surved for a little while (possibly 5 days). So stillborn is correct. The referencing in this article is, to my understanding, completely inadequate, in that it gives some books which supposedly substantiate its content in the references section, but gives no actual citations/page references. I am putting this notice here per WP:FARC before requesting this article's featured status be revoked. mg e kelly 08:21, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Lady Jane Grey: An interesting inconsistency
From this article:

"Originally, Mary was inclined to exercise clemency. She set the Lady Jane Grey free, recognising that the young girl was forced to take the Crown by her father-in-law. The Lady Jane's father, Henry Grey, 1st Duke of Suffolk, was also released. Only the Duke of Northumberland did the Queen execute..."

And from Lady Jane Grey:

"...Mary was in a determined and unforgiving mood, and only five days after Wyatt's arrest, Jane and Guilford were executed. In addition, Mary planned a marital alliance with Spain, and the Spaniards may have insisted on Jane's death to remove a potential threat to Mary's rule. Jane's execution took place on 12 February 1554 at the Tower of London."

I'm no historian, but... Noting this on LJG:Talk as well. Mashford 04:17, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * There is actually no inconsistency in this article. After she succeeded to the Throne, Mary set Jane free. It was only afterwards, when a second rebellion was attempted, that Lady Jane was executed. (This is mentioned in the article.) -- Emsworth 15:29, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Right, this is certainly a plausible scenario (and my immediate guess). I looked in all my various Tudor history books (not the best collection, alas), in an attempt to confirm that this was what happened, but alas could not. The two that did make reference to Jane and the Tower after Mary's accesssion state that she was returned to the Tower after the execution of Northumberland - which of course does not preclude her later release. Can anyone provide a reference to her release (preferably with date)? Noel (talk) 16:04, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Mary was almost always inclined to clemency. She astonished not only the members of her Council, but in particular foreign ambassadors, when she continually pardoned those who were undoubtedly guilty of trying to dethrone her.  This is seen both after her accession as well as after Wyatt's Rebellion when very few of the traitors were executed.  When Lady Jane Grey was arrested after her brief "reign", Mary had only three people executed: John Dudley (1st Duke of Northumberland), Sir John Gates (the Captain of the King's Guard), and Sir Thomas Palmer.  Jane and her husband Guilford Dudley were arraigned and condemned at the Guildhall in November, but they were "pardoned" by the Queen and returned to the Tower where they both remained (separately) until they were executed in February of the next year. Whereas Wyatt's Revolt had nothing to do with Lady Jane Grey, her father the Duke of Suffolk, who had been pardoned and released on July 31, 1553, again was arrested for treason along with Wyatt and many others.  At this point Mary had no choice but to execute Suffolk, but also his daughter and son-in-law.  --Massimo377 22:56, 18 Jun 2006

Jane Grey entered the Tower of London on 10 July 1553. She never left it in freedom again. At the end of her brief reign, she became a prisoner rather than a royal resident. She was tried on a count of treason in the Court of King's Bench on 13 November 1553 and found guilty. The original documents of the trial are contained in the records of the Court of King's Bench held in the British National Archives Public Record Office at Kew (KB 8/23). She remained in the Tower, housed in the apartments of the Gentleman Gaoler. She was under superivsory (i.e. loose) confinement rather than close (in a cell) confinement. A parital account of her confinement is contained in "The Chronicle of Queen Jane and of Two Years of Queen Mary," believed to have been written by an official of the royal mint living in the Tower at the time (The original manuscript of this chronicle is in the British Library among the Harleian Manuscripts. It was transcribed and printed by the Camden Society in 1850). Mary was indeed inclined to allow Jane to live, and resisted signing a death warrant, but out of personal conviction that Jane was innocent of seeking the crown rather than a sense of "clemency." The Spanish ambassadors negotiating the contract for Mary's marriage to Phillip of Spain pressed repeatedly for Jane's execution on account of her value to potential rebels (see "Calendar of State Papers, Foreign - Spain, for the Reign of Mary I" and "Calendar of Letters, Papers and Despatches relating to the Negotiations Between England and Spain"). The Spanish fears proved valid during Wyatt's Rebellion of late-January and early February 1553/4. To secure the much sought after marriage with Phillip, Mary relented and allowed Jane's execution to go forward, still believing she wa innocent of any crime herself. Other than a brief trip to the Guildhall for her trial in November 1553, Jane had not left the Tower since entering it on 10 July 1553. Mary did not at any time "free" her. We know this with certainty because in order for a prisoner previously charged with or convicted of treason to be freed, a warrant from the Privy Council was required. The Council was even responsible for granting access to prisoners by those prisoners' families. A visitor needed the written permission of the Council before visiting any prisoner. Several such warrants are recorded in the "Calendar of the Acts of the Privy Council" relating to the Dudley family, as well as for Elizabeth during her imprisonment. There is no warrant recorded that allowed Jane to leave the Tower at any time. In short, any claim that Mary "freed" Jane and that Jane was later "returned" to imprisonment in the Tower is simply false. Jane's father, Henry of Suffolk, was indeed released soon after Jane's abortive reign, but he paid twenty thousand pounds as a surety bond for his good behavior. And lastly, Mary was not "almost always inclined to clemency." The only reason she did not seek the deaths of numerous conspirators in the Jane reign was political reality. The majority of the Privy Council, several bishops, and the Aldermen of the City of London had all affixed their signatures to the instrument that set Mary aside and declared Jane to be Queen of England. As such, all of those individuals were potentially guilty of treason and might be executed. Mary had to make a choice: execute a limited number of scapegoats in order to set an example, or pursue charges of treason against virtually the entire government. Were she to execute everyone involved, she would have been left with precious few men with the experience necessary to rule the realm. Political expediency and necessity overcame personal inclinations. Mary was no fool; she knew she needed those men in order to govern the kingdom effectively. "Clemency" had nothing to do with it. PhD Historian 06:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Mysterious piece of information

 * Browsing some articles about this period it strikes me as quite curious a phrase which appears almost always Queen Mary is mentioned with minor differences in the wording or details: " During Mary's five-year reign, 283 individuals were burnt at the stake"(sometimes it adds "for heresy")", twice as many as had suffered the same fate during the previous century and a half of English history".
 * The same phrase (more or less) in different articles must come from the same source but from where exactly?
 * Also, I think it is strongly POV (not that I doubt the details are true) because its obvious the conclusion it leads us to with its carefully crafted comparison: She was called Bloody Mary for a good reason. She executed 1.230 poeple in her five years regin!

I am working on identifying the original source for this quote (I suspect it originates in one of the nineteenth-century multivolume histories of the English Reformation), but for now I'm amused by your statement that the sentence is "strongly POV" (point-of-view, I assume?) and "carefully crafted." You seem to be implying that whatever historian worked out the figures was being subjective and deliberately attempting to cast Mary in a particular light. Or am I mis-interpreting your entry? I do know that numerous scholars have done archival research to determine from legal records, especially the Fine Registers, the names and dates of all religiously-based executions in England in the early modern period. The data compiled includes executions (usually but not always by burning at the stake) not only of non-Roman Catholics by Roman Catholics (i.e. the 283 Marian persecutions) but also of Roman Catholics by non-Roman Catholics (the persecution of Roman Catholics by Edwardian and Elizabethan Protestants as well as earlier Henrician Catholic persecutions of Roman Catholics), and Protestant persecutions of heretical fellow Protestants (especially the persecutions of Anabaptists by the Church of England in the late sixteenth century). Dr. J.F. Davis has found, for example, that over 700 men, women and children were burned at the stake in just one small region of southwest England between the years 1525 and 1559. His figures include victims of all religious persuasions and cover at least four distinct periods of official religious doctrine within England. The single common factor is that they were burned at the stake for expressing religious views inconsistent with the official doctrine of their day. But the evidence does reveal an especially vigorous spate of executions during Mary's reign, at least by English standards. By continental European standards, where executions occurred in far greater numbers, Mary was an amateur. But the objective mathematical fact remains: in order to register even an equal number of religiously-based executions as occurred during Mary's reign, one must count back more than 50 years ... more than ten times the length of Mary's reign. An executions-per-year mathematically averaged ratio of more than 10:1 provides a very objective basis for designating her "Bloody Mary." Im not sure how a simple mathematically based comparison qualifies as "strongly POV" or "carefully crafted." Would it be any less "POV" or "crafted" to say that there were as many executions in the five years of Mary's reign as had occurred in the previous fifty years? PhD Historian 11:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You didn´t mis-interpret me, that´s exactly what I think. I am sorry but I don´t see the relevance of your figures to the matter (if any, they obviously contradict the accuracy of the sentence). But let´s focus on the sentence and let me explain why I think it is carefully crafted. Sadly, 283 is not a very impressive figure so the sentence tries to put it in context to make the case for the "bloody" epithet more strong.
 * First it stresses the shortness of her reign, so that we think in rates and not in absolute numbers. But we are not talking about maths here and the "rate" is not very significant. In a troubled reign there are periods of more strong repression (most often the first years I would guess) and periods of relative calm.
 * The sentence doesn´t compare executions (as one should think would be the most logical thing to do) but "executions by burning" which I understand was quite uncommon in England. I am guessing that this distinction was necessary to make the case stronger.
 * Related with this, I think if the burning method was chosen was because anglicans were considered "heretics" by catholics. On the other hand, catholics would be considered "traitors" by anglicans. So, the way the comparison is made, it leaves out the executions of catholics by anglicans.
 * The reference used to put things in context is not a natural one. Why considering exactly 150 years? Because it makes figures look good. Why not mentioning the situation in the rest of Europe? Why not mentioning the later repression by Elizabeth? Aren´t this part of the historical context?


 * I may be overanalysing things (I am catholic myself), but it would surprise me to find out that the source for this sentence is not an english, pro-anglican one. I am not asking for the sentence to be deleted, if the facts are true, just want to know where did it came from.
 * Anyway, thanks for answering me and investigating the matter.

I agree with you on several of your points, actually. For example, I feel certain that the sentence was originally written (as I stated previously) by one of the prominent religious historians of the nineteenth century. And most of those historians were English and Anglican, and were raised in an era when England had only very recently repealed much of its anti-Catholic legislation (i.e. the period shortly after the Catholic Relief Act of 1829, when anti-Catholic sentiment was still strong). And I agree that comparison to the numbers of executions (by burning) on the continent in the same timeframe might be an interesting one. It might also be "apples and oranges." Different population sizes, different mechanisms at work. For example, 238 burnings in a country (England) with a population of just a couple of million would be statistically significantly different from 238 burnings in a country (Spain) with a population of 7.5 million. Similarly, the Inquisition was actively seeking out transgressors in Spain (and many other continental countries), but never operated in England. So from a scholar's point of view (my own), a comparison across time within England has greater statistical validity than a transnational but contemporaneous comparison. The "repression" by Elizabeth that you mention did not entail numerous burnings. Nor were there ever "executions of Catholics by Anglicans" within England under Elizabeth on a scale remotely similar to that of Mary. Repression of Catholics was largely limited to monetary fines for recusancy. Relatively few were burned, and the majority of those few were priests emigrating into England illegally. Mary was a poor politician with strong religious commitments; Elizabeth was an excellent politician with weak religious commitment. 238 burnings is a "not very significant rate"? I disagree. That averages out to 4 burnings per month during Mary's reign. Imagine if the US criminal justice system executed 4 people per month nation wide. Even the bloodthirsty Texans have never reached that level. From my perspective as an atheist Tudor historian, I consider the Marian executions quite significant. Further, the basic data involved and the language (including the appellation "Bloody Mary") began to be used as early as 1563 with the publication of John Foxe's "Actes and Monuments" (aka Book of Martyrs). Foxe began exploiting the numbers for purposes of Protestant (though not yet Anglican) religious propaganda within 5 years of Mary's death, and the name "Bloody Mary" began to appear in the literature shortly thereafter. So it is actually a very old idea, even if the exact wording of the particular sentence is (I suspect ... I'm still checking) only about 125-150 years old. Last point: your understanding that execution by burning in England was "quite uncommon" is erroneous. Prior to the Marian reign it was used with regularity for executing religious heretics. Burning was the method prescribed by Roman Catholic authorities throughout Europe, including England prior to the Reformation. Only after the Marian reign, when England became officially Protestant, did burnings become "quite uncommon." Reformation Protestants did not place the same purifying and salvific value on fire that pre-Reformation Roman Catholics did. If you'd like, I can refer you to some books on crime and punishment in early modern England taht address the issue. PhD Historian 21:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your input. It looks like the Reformation was really much less bloodier in England than what I thought (and one would expect). However the exact figures are hard to find (in contrast with the precision of the 283 killed by Mary). I know there are around 600 martyrs recognized by the Church for a wide period, which might be an approximation or at least fixes the lowest possible number (by the way, I don´t care about the method of execution).
 * And I should clarify that it´s not that I don´t think that 283 in 5 years is a significant rate I just don´t think that "rates" in general are very significant to measure or evaluate this kind of events.
 * Thank you again.

It IS actually possible to find out fairly precisely how many people were executed in England for religious reasons. The data is contained in at least two sources: the Fine Rolls, and ecclesiastical court records. And I am sure that someone has published the data in some scholarly article somewhere. But it is not something you can look up in the Catholic Encyclopedia, for instance. Continental European data is unfortunately less precise, in part due to the spotty survival of records (records of all kinds survived, in general, better in England than on the continent where most of the warfare occurred). I'm sure someone has compiled data for at least some of the European regions, especially Germany. Some of it might be contained in such books as "Theatre of Horror: Crime and Punishment in Early Modern Germany" by Richard van Dulmen, "Judging the French Reformation: Heresy Trials by Sixteenth-Century Parlements" by William Monter, "Venice's Hidden Enemies: Italian Heretics in a Renaissance City" by John Martin, "Les Inquisitions modernes dans les pays-bas méridionaux (1520-1633) Tome II: Les victimes" by Aline Goosens, "Tolerance and Intolerance in the European Reformation" by Ole Peter Grell and Bob Scribner, "Mysticism and Dissent: Religious Ideology and Social Protest in the Sixteenth Century" by Steven E. Ozment, "The Death Penalty: An Historical and Theological Survey" by James J. Megivern. But of those 600 martyrs recognized by the Church, does the number include or exclude the early Roman martyrs? PhD Historian 20:28, 26 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well it may be possible but it is certainly not easy, and I have looked of course outside the Catholic Encyclopedia. The contrast to the availability of the 283 figure is striking.
 * The 600 figure does come from the CE and I must make now the precision that only about half are oficially recognized as martyrs, the other half being in the process. This number refers only to England and Wales in the period 1534-1729; I am a little surprised by your question about the "early roman martyrs" of course thousands died then (or are you referring to English catholics in the first years of the reformation?).
 * Also, the situation in Ireland is much more obscure, with the additional problem of the records being much less reliable than those in England. But that catholics were killed for being so in Ireland under Tudor rule seems quite certain.

I will give this one last shot, and then I am done with it. Yes, certainly there were deaths of Catholics in Ireland at the hands of Tudor-era English Protestants. No arguement there at all. The Tudor, and especially Elizbethan, policies in Ireland were reprehenshible by modern standards. But the "striking availability" of figures for Protestant martyrs in the Marian reign is due largely to the work of one man, John Foxe, the Tudor-era Protestant martyrologist, chronicler, and propagandist. To my knowledge, Catholics have never had a similar single figure recording such events among Catholics, though there are a few lists of modern martyrs being maintained by lay-persons, mostly lists of "unofficial" missionary martyrs in under-developed or war-torn countries, I believe. As you yourself noted, the Catholic Church places martyrs in a special religious category that requires they be "officially recognized" by the Church as martyrs. Protestants have no such "official" process. Protestant martyrs for the Marian period were largely accounted by a single individual (Foxe) working at the end of Mary's reign, while Catholic martyrs are determined by a committee working years, even centuries, after the fact. That more cumbersome Catholic process by its very nature makes the accounting a bit more difficult and imprecise, less "strikingly available." My question about early Roman martyrs was intended to clarify that someone was not referring to the online CE entry on "martyrs," since that entry refers only to Roman-era martyrs and not to martyrs in other eras. The CE does not seem to specifically address martyrs in the early modern period (ca 1500-1789). So, that's that. Yes, the numbers for Protestant martyrs during the Marian reign in England and Wales are "strikingly available" while those for Catholic martyrs are not. But there is a fairly reason for the difference: the 1563 publication of John Foxe's "Actes and Monuments" made the accounting process much easier for Protestant Marian martyrs. PhD Historian 20:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, this is really no place for a debate. As a good bye the link to the article in the CE http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05474a.htm

Thank you, mysterious "81.9.160.138." That reference is a very good concise listing of the Catholic confessor, missionaries, martyrs (official and unofficial) in England for the early modern period. PhD Historian 00:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

de facto vs de jure
In the introduction and at the bottom, the terms de facto and de jure were used incorrect. As established on the page about Edward VI, Jane was the successor to the throne under an (albeit illegal) act, therefore she was the de jure successor. She was recognized by such by law, that is, by the people at the court of the king, the people with power, the people who make the laws. However, Mary was more powerful than Jane and more popular, therefore was successor in all respects except by law and was therefore able to seize power (almost) immediately, afterwards legalizing it. Even this use of these terms can be disputed, see my note in the wiki discussion for the article on Edward VI. However, it seems only logical to use the same terms consistently in both articles and I consider the explanation giving there to be usable. It would seem logical to debate this, work out something that works and then use the same terms in the same way in both articles. Until such time, I've corrected the use of these terms in accordance with the explanation given in the aforementioned article, as only there is any explanation given for use of these terms in these cases. Skeptic77 23:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe you have it backwards--a person who is able to exercise power, without legal authority to do so, is a de facto authority. A person who has legal authority to exercise power is a de jure authority, whether or not that person has the ability to carry out the exercise of her power.

Accordingly, at the moment of Edward VI's death, Mary was de jure Queen of England--Edward lacked testamentary capacity to bequeath the Crown, and his attempt to do so was contradicted by existing Act of Parliament. However, Jane was proclaimed Queen, and actually exercised Royal authority (albeit in a limited sphere), making her de facto Queen until her deposition.--Visagrunt 16:11, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Personal Union?
Am I correct in understanding that, had Phillip and Mary had a son, that son would've inherited both kingdoms, forming a personal union between Spain and England? What an interesting scenario that would've been ... Nik42 09:00, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

It is highly unlikely that Parliament would have been content to see personal union between the English and Spanish Crowns, as any child of Mary and Philip would have been Roman Catholic.--Visagrunt 16:13, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

At the time, this was not expected, because Philip still had a son, Don Carlos, from his first marriage. Had a child been born, and then succeeded his mother on the throne in 1558, he would have become the heir-apparent to the Spanish throne after Don Carlos's death in 1568. It's unclear if he'd actually have inherited it. As to Catholicism and Parliament, we're talking about the 16th century, not the 17th - Mary's parliaments were all perfectly willing to accept her religious policy, and there's no particular reason to think that the triumph of protestantism was inevitable already in 1553. The issue of foreign domination, I think, would be more significant in inhibiting Mary and Philip's son from accepting the Spanish throne. (on the other hand, English acquisition of the Netherlands seems like a fascinating possibility). john k 18:24, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Grammar
Is "conditioned" right in this sentence? it is unsure weather or not she would have betrayed her own father but some people believe that she did - It is generally believed that she would have spared Jane's life if it had not been for the intervention of the Spanish diplomats who conditioned Mary's marriage to their king on her executing Jane.

It doesn't sound right at all to me - I think it's an example of the unnecessary "verbing" of a noun. But I would be interested to know what others think: maybe it is just a legitimate usage which I have not seen before. Nevilley 10:34 Feb 15, 2003 (UTC)

"Persecutions

"Numerous microbe leaders were murdered..." Huh? Clearly "microbe" must be a homonym for the intended word, but I can't think what that could be. ? 75.18.202.5 (talk) 07:43, 5 December 2007 (UTC)Nancy R.

Succession boxes changed
Why were the infobox & succession boxes changed at this article. Mary I of England argubaly succeeded the throne on July 6th, 1553. GoodDay (talk) 01:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Formal name
It is incorrect to call Mary Tudor "Mary I," because there was no Mary II. Mary of Orange and her husband reigned as a single legal entity called William and Mary. He did not assume the title William III until after her death, and she was never called Mary II. Therefore there was no Mary I. She should simply be called Mary of England. Adam 14:42, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * and why not? they were both named Mary, and both ruled. Sure sounds like a no brainer to me as to why Mary Tudor was Mary I and Mary Stuart was Mary II. Thats how the numering goes. I dont see your point at all.


 * Because she's often referred to as merely "Queen Mary" in the United Kingdom, whereas this doesn't tend to happen with any of the other kings or queens that had an identically named successor (except for William the Conqueror). The website of the British Monarchy does, however, consistently use Mary I.  --Sbp 17:38, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Mary II DID exist and was titled as such as she was a sovereign in her own right, not a queen consort. She had separate regalia and crowning as a Queen Regnant, they were William III and Mary II. (anon)
 * Yes, this is correct. Mary II of England was daughter of James II of England and co-monarch with William III of England] ("William of Orange") who overthrew James.  --Red King 20:36, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Red King is right - Their reign was known as the dual monarchy I believe. Mary's sister Anne agreed to give up her place in the succession should Mary die before William, which is of course what happened. Mary was Queen Regnant, and she and Anne both had a claim to the throne more direct than William, as William was descended from Charles II and James II sister Mary, who had married the Prince of Orange. Kevin Q

I would like to point out that Mary herself called herself Mary I. Jp1701a (talk) 07:51, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Jp1701a, are you saying that Mary Tudor styled herself 'Mary I'? Have you references to back this up? Monarchs only ever style themselves as e.g. 'Queen Victoria'; she does not become 'Victoria I' until there has been a 'Victoria II'. It would go completely against how monarchs are addressed if Mary did so. Boleyn (talk) 20:04, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Prince Henry
In the beginning of the article it states: "...stillborn brother, the prince Henry, had preceded her." However, Prince Henry lived for a while. I think we should remove the 'stillborn', unless someone has sources that state otherwise.

There were two Prince Henrys who preceded her. The better known Prince Henry, who was born in 1511, lived for seven weeks. The second Henry was not thought to have been stillborn, but we know little about him, other than that he was dead within a month of his birth. See Henry, Duke of Cornwall for more information. Boleyn (talk) 20:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Kingdom of Naples
Csn I ask why this page comes under the Wikiproject Kingdom of Naples category. I don't have a problem with that but was just interested in the link? Contaldo80 (talk) 21:46, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Because she was Queen consort of Naples. Dimadick (talk) 10:45, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Latin titles mess
Please somebody undo the drunken mess John made of the infobox. - Timerode (talk) 09:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Well thank you very much. So much for putting time and effort into extending relevant data. And from someone who didn't even have the wit to work out how to undo. --JohnArmagh (talk) 15:41, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it's appalling. The picture should be at the top, and the titles nonsense, drastically curtailed, at the bottom. Johnbod (talk) 04:01, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Well that is a particularly banal comment also - the picture never has been "at the top". --JohnArmagh (talk) 15:34, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps not, but it should be. Johnbod (talk) 15:50, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, OK then - put the image at the top - for each of the sovereigns of England. It is easy to idly pontificate on what should be.  If only the same effort were put into the actual work... --JohnArmagh (talk) 20:26, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Image question
I'm trying to figure out who the subject of this image by Wenceslas Hollar is. It's labeled "The Lady Mary, Princesse of great Brittaine - Are to be sould by Tho Bankes in Black-friers atop of Bridwell Staires." Hollar died in 1677, so options are limited. I suspect it is Mary I of England, but she doesn't look like any of the other pictures here - is it just an age difference or is there another Princess Mary predating 1677? Dcoetzee 08:19, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It's definetely not Mary I. It could be either Mary II or her aunt/mother-in-law Mary, Princess Royal and Princess of Orange. I think it's Mary, Princess Royal and Princess of Orange (see the portrait of her on the left). Surtsicna (talk) 12:08, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, and no, her article does not need the image! Johnbod (talk) 14:34, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Untitled
I think this phrase needs to be re-worded: "Meanwhile, the marriage of Mary's parents was in jeopardy because Catherine had failed to provide Henry the male heir he desired." We now know that the sex of a child is dependent upon the sperm of the father, which chromosome is passed on. Wording the phrase that way assumes that Wikipedia users agree with Henry that it was Chatherine's fault. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.249.195.30 (talk) 11:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Isn't that a mistake?

isn't she "Mary I of England"? (even if she was "Queen of France and Ireland, Queen Consort of Aragon, Castile, and Naples, Consort of the Spanish Netherlands. (more...)")

Can someone change her signature in the box? It says "mayze the queen." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.246.92.219 (talk) 06:21, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I think disambiguation is needed between Bloody Mary, Mary Tudor(Queen of France) and Mary Queen of Scots. They all lived in the same 100 year period, all part of the Tudor family tree and all have alternative names. It's very easy to get into a mess.

I agree that the title "Mary I" doesn't help one bit to point out which Mary she is, especially in light of the other Marys and the fact that there is not Mary II.

Spanglej (talk) 21:41, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Semiprotection review

 * 12:26, 14 March 2008 Casliber protected Mary I of England ‎ (clearly vandalism is a recurrent issue [edit=autoconfirmed:move=autoconfirmed])

That was 18 months ago. I'd like to review this to see if semiprotection is still necessary. As well as welcoming the views of regular editors I've contacted Casliber, the protecting admin. --TS 12:16, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Large article in not too bad a state, often a target of mischievous IPs. Sick of dealing with it. My rule of thumb is more than one IP vandalism edit per day is worth a semi. Often two different IPs in succession will mean a reversion is missed. Resources are thin and I think it is an appropriate use of semi-prot. If you really want to unprotect this be my guest (I will do so), but I would state that ongoing vandalism will recur and it won't be too long before something is missed....or our vandal reverters will get so used to reverting vandal IPs they will become jaded and revert potential new users. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:46, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think we must have fundamentally different attitudes--I wouldn't ask for semiprotection unless an article attracted quite a lot of vandalism in any given day. It's easy enough to hit rollback, and just as easy to revert back to restore a wrongly deleted edit.


 * In my judgement the exposure to vandalism is worth it for the odd bit of proof-reading done by fresh eyes that catch detail the regulars do not. Historically, also, a lot of our best content is added by expert IP editors who just happen upon Wikipedia one day, add what they know about a subject, and then vanish without trace. It's what makes Wikipedia so special.


 * Having said that, I'd like to see IP editing given a chance for a few days, even if a low threshold is set for reprotection.


 * In case you didn't catch that, the answer is "yes please, unprotect for a trial." It's on my watchlist and I'll handle any mess that may arise that doesn't get cleared up before I find it. --TS 15:49, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, our opinions differ and I am open-minded. I'll unprotect and we'll review this in three months then (anyone who reads this and notes that I haven't posted again here in over three months time is welcome to ping me on Dec 16th or later). Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:45, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, that one lasted 45 minutes, and we're getting one a day so far...Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:57, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Medal created by Jacopo Nizzola da Trezzo
The two pictures of medals by Jacopo Nizzola da Trezzo are each the recto each of two different medals. The upper one showing the queen is made of gold and shows on the verso the allegory of peace burning weapons. The inscription surrounding the allegory sounds Cesis visus - timidis quies or For the blind ones: sight - for the timid ones: quietness.

Sources; Auction catalogue by Morton & Eden, London, UK for an auction on 9th December, 2009 at Sotheby's No. 136 page 71 and Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung of 06.12.2009 pge 65

The verso of the medal showing Mary's husband Philipp II of Spain is not known to me - yet.

I think the format of the inset and the description should be changed. Being a new contributor to Wikipedia only since yesterday I have not yet aquired any technical ability to change any part of the outlay of Wikipedia pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.35.217.35 (talk) 00:40, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Bloody Mary
The "Bloody Mary" name is mentioned in the lead section and then at least three more times in the text. That is too much. Just lead section and mention it once more somewhere. I know there are several books that use the title, but that is probably because it is a convenient handle. -- 64.175.42.148 03:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

To say she executed as many people in 5 years as Henry did in 38 and Elizabeth in 45 is not a good argument against her Bloody Mary nickname. She killed a lot of people in her 5 years and her country was happy when she kicked the bucket, as they were when Elizabeth died. But at least there were long honeymoon periods with Elizabeth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hemsley666 (talk • contribs) 23:11, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Disregarding the relative worth of these three monarchs, the comparison seems a misleading one. A note about the comparable briefness of Mary's reign would put the comparison in perspective, but would be prohibitively cumbersome. As such, I'm just going to remove it. PandaPounce (talk) 03:39, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Was Mary Spanish-English?
This is a minor issue, but do others consider Mary to have been a Spanish-English person just because her mother was Spanish? Culturally she was as English as Elizabeth, and since European monarchs frequently married each other, that makes most kings hyphenated in some fashion, for instance it make James II French-English. It seems anachronistic to use terms like "Spanish-English" for medieval monarchs, unless they participated in both cultures or were ruling monarchs of two countries. Tocharianne 16:58, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

You have not read her article at all and I don't care one bit for such an incredulous objection you barely make here. She was the granddaughter of Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabel of Castile, the Catholic Monarchs who completed the Reconquista with the help of the Spanish Inquisition and sent Columbus to America. Her husband Philip was the son of Charles Habsburg, Holy Roman Emperor and King of Spain, having the Philippines named after him. Mary instituted the English version of the Inquisition, on par with her mother and husband's birth realm. Her grandfather Henry VII consciously allied England with the Catholic powers, especially Habsburg Spain on the precedents set by John of Gaunt, titular King of Castile and Leon, founder of the House of Lancaster and Edmund of Langley, founder of the House of York. The Titulus Regius ("the greate noblesse and excellence of your Byrth and Blode, as of hym that is descended of the thre moost Royall houses in Cristendom, that is to say, England, Fraunce, and Hispanic.") describes King Richard III has bearing the royal blood of England, France and the Spanish dominions. Both the Lancastrian and Yorkist branches pursued a Hispanic marriage policy that the Tudors inherited, as a result of the end of the Wars of the Roses. Mary Tudor represented the last of native English Catholicism, which survived only on the good graces of Spain. Protestant nationalists will tell you that their Dutch preferences were more English, such as King William III of England. You'd have to wonder why the name James was so popular in the Scottish Royal Family and why King James I of England pursued a pro-Spanish foreign policy (as well as Spanish marriage for Charles, Prince of Wales), except for the fact that it was the name of James I of Aragon, the Conqueror (successful Reconquistador) and Saint James the Great of Spain (Way of St. James). You mustn't be so purist about Spanish influences in England or Britain--nationalism was not a feature of those times. Spanish influences in England were once extremely strong and vibrant; even the whole royal courts were speaking with a Spanish lisp and learning how to strum Spanish guitars--there were a total of eight kings named James in the British Isles. But, go ahead and be bigoted. Try to rewrite history from whatever anti-Catholic fantasy makes you most happy.

Philip and Mary, by the Grace of God King and Queen of England, Spain, France, Jerusalem, both the Sicilies and Ireland, Defenders of the Faith, Archdukes of Austria, Dukes of Burgundy, Milan and Brabant, Counts of Habsburg, Flanders and Tyrol.

Rhode Islander 18:47, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Can I just say that Rhode Islander seems to have over-reacted remarkably. Tocharianne certainly didn't seem to be making any anti-Catholic or anti-Spanish statements. His/her point seemed to be more along the lines of, if someone is raised in the culture of England, can they be considered English? In fact, I would say that Mary probably is arguably half-Spanish: her mother would have considered herself Spanish, and by any general modern standards (and, judging from various propagandas in history, then also) Mary would thus be half-Spanish. A different test would be to ask what Mary considered herself: did she think of herself as half-English, half-Spanish? I don't know this for certain; however, judging by her attitude to the Spanish Habsburgs, and the influences of Catherine of Aragon, she probably did. Which would be any reasonable measuring rod (did Henry VII consider himself a quarter Welsh? Or half-Welsh? Or Welsh? That would be a more interesting question.) Of course, it is impossible, tedious and pointless to state precisely what percentage of each nation or kingdom she traced her ancestry from; generally, in all circumstances, people decide their self-identity based on parents and grandparents, upbringing, and sympathies (I consider myself half Russian due to my great-grandparents). I repeat: Tocharianne's question was entirely relevant and important; it's just that there doesn't seem much reason to change our view of Mary as half-Spanish. And Rhode Islander, in future please don't heap your own misunderstandings with intolerable rudeness. Michaelsanders 19:03, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I also don't understand what the Scottish James's (allies of France, surely?) have to do with Spain. Michaelsanders 19:14, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I think this is more an American thing to tediously label everyone with their ancestry (African American, Irish American, Chinese American) but it is something that is not done in the UK, full stop and I don't think calling Mary Spanish-English is at all suitable for the article. Katharine of Aragon was descended from John of Gaunt anyway, so was only Spanish 2 or so generations back, and most likely had more English blood in her veins than Spanish, which makes her Spanish-English-English-French-Dutch or something not even worth considering.Paul75 01:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm British. I consider myself a mixture of Russian Jewish, English, and Welsh. And I once read a remark that 'only the English boast about not being English'. Culture and personal belief are important factors. Sweeping generalisations are not. Michaelsanders 02:30, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Not sure if that last comment is a comment on the debate, a jibe at the previous remark, or just the user taking another excuse to make another domineering and arrogant commentPaul75 21:21, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

What a silly topic to even bother debating about. Mary Tudor being born an English Princess does not wipe out all her other forgien ancestors. That is as ridculous as people saying Britian was never ruled by people who were German or have German descent. A person's birth place or where they choose to live does not change their ancestors. It has been my understanding people who tediously label themselves are proud of their heritage, only those who are ashamed tend to delude themselves. RosePlantagenet 12:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

well then we would have to call her spanish-english-portugese-french etc. etc. etc.... 62.56.67.78 (talk) 20:02, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm American. In fact, I'm Cherokee, Irish, Scottish, English, Egyptian, Greek, Huron Indian, French, Canadian, and German...but I do not walk around calling myself all those things. This is really a ridiculous topic. Mary was Spanish and English, but there is really no point to saying it all the time. People are perfectly capable of figuring it out for themselves if they read a little beyond this one article.--GeorgiaWillow (talk) 07:06, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Papal bull 1555
I can't add this to the page as it's locked, but the text is here.86.43.187.185 (talk) 10:06, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

MK wiki
Please add an interwiki link for the Macedonian version. Thank you.
 * ✅ (by User:Тиверополник)  Ron h jones (Talk) 21:30, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Inaccuracies
Henry VIII didn't actually establish with the Anglican Church. He broke English Catholicism from Roman Catholicism, but remained in his own eyes a catholic, just one not in communion with Rome. A full break with catholicism is generally dated to his son, Edward VI, who is generally described as England's first protestant monarch. (The first protestant funeral for a member of the royal family was that of Catherine Parr, the widow of Henry VIII. Henry's funeral, like that of his previous wives, was catholic.)

Also - though we often use the word divorce, Henry and Catherine of Aragon were not divorced in the modern sense. They had their marriage annulled, ie, ruled as invalid and so non-existing. That is why Princess Mary was viewed as illegitimate. She wasn't made illegitimate by the king; she was made illegitimate by the declaration that her parents were never married. Henry could have legitimised her but didn't, which is the point. He didn't strip her of her legitimacy (the first time at least), he simply never granted her it (not immediately at least). This sort of confusion always flows when we use a technically inaccurate but popularly used word like divorce to talk about Henry's marriage to Catherine of Aragon (and Anne Boleyn and Katherine Howard; he had his marriages to them annulled, then executed them for adultery, conveniently ignoring the facts that if they weren't married to him, how could they have committed adultery against their non-husband?). JtdIrL 08:21 Mar 1, 2003 (UTC)

Also - family terms wrong, Mary, Edward and Elizabeth were not brother and sisters, but half-brother and half-sisters. They did not share the same mother. JtdIrL 08:29 Mar 1, 2003 (UTC)

The first paragraph is backwards. Mary brought Catholicism back to England, NOT Protestantism. Sadly, this is supposed to be one of the "better" articles on Wikipedia.

The painting at the right top is in the Gardner Museum, Boston, not the Museum of Prado, Madrid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Uihalfive (talk • contribs) 01:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Um, you made a mistake there, Jtdirl. Catherine Parr was not the WIDOW of Henry VIII. She survived him.--GeorgiaWillow (talk) 07:03, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Oxford English Dictionary: 1. widow, n - a woman who has lost her husband by    death and has not remarried. Therfore, for approximately 5 months after the     death of Henry VIII, Catherine Parr was in fact the widow of King Henry VIII.

Mary did not immediately have Lady Jane Grey executed; she did not plan to have Lady Jane Grey executed, precisely because she did understand that her cousin was a pawn of Northumberland. She was not executed until after the Wyatt rebellion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Englishreform (talk • contribs) 14:14, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Title of bastard
Shouldn't it be noted how Mary was, technically a bastard? Her parents were married when she was born but, because of the annulment, the two were effectively never married and so Mary was technically a bastard daughter.

She was declared legitimate and her parents marriage good and valid near after her accession to the throne —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.56.81.251 (talk) 20:05, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Under canon law, which even under Henry VIII set the standard and informed English civil law, the children of an annulled marriage are legitimate, as long as one spouse understood the marriage to be valid at the time it was solemnized. The declarations of illegitimacy for Mary, and for Elizabeth, were to override those laws. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.77.234.147 (talk) 23:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 76.77.234.147, 22 August 2010
After Archbishop of Canterbury Thomas Cranmer was deprived and later burned at the stake, Mary had Pole, who, though a cardinal since 22 December 1536, was not yet a priest, appointed as his successor in 1557.

Should say

After Archbishop of Canterbury Thomas Cranmer was deprived and later burned at the stake, Mary had Pole, a cardinal since 22 December 1536, appointed as his successor in 1557.

The cardinalate is and always has been an administrative title of the governance of the Church, not a matter of ordination of clergy, not a matter of the sacrament of Holy Orders. It was not then necessary to be a priest to be a cardinal. The cardinalate even now is like a knighthood, really. The requirement that one be a priest was not inaugurated until very recent times. As you may see, many princes, especially of the Italian great houses, were awarded or even bought red hats, and many laid them aside later, or even married after receiving the honor. There's nothing wrong with that.

The current wording of the article, like the usual run of British history, is contrived to throw dishonor on Cardinal Pole and on the Church, to put Mary in the wrong. But in any case it is a falsehood, and does need to be changed. Thanks!

Kevin Orlin Johnson Author, Why Do Catholics Do That?, etc.

76.77.234.147 (talk) 23:23, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * An admin has changed the protection level so you can make the edit yourself now :-) --Commander Keane (talk) 04:11, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Surname
Would it be correct to say that Mary's name at her death was "Mary Hapsburg" (due to her marriage with Phillip)?

Excuse me! I am not yet even a teenager, yet I know that it was Habsburg, not Hapsburg! LOL. Anyway, I LOVE HISTORY!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.120.114 (talk) 01:04, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Queens regnant don't change their surname upon marriage. For example, Queen Victoria belonged to the House of Hanover (not her husband's house) but her son, Edward VII, belonged to his father's house. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.250.113.209 (talk) 14:08, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Those aren't family names. Royal houses don't have family names like "Smith" or "Wagstaff". It's "von Habsburg" and "of Hanover", the names of the places they rule. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.77.234.147 (talk) 23:30, 22 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Hapsburg is the traditional spelling in English, not "Habsburg" [sic]. Varlaam (talk) 19:36, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Ancestry
May I suggest that the "Ancestry" tree should be the other way round, with Mary on the right. For people like me who read from left to right, it looks more like a tree of her descendants.Jplm (talk) 12:11, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

what did queen mary do that is good
what did queen mary do that is good —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.210.119.190 (talk) 19:03, 11 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Churchill says her one positive action (that he acknowledges she is not credited with) was that she removed a great many corrupt officals from the regency era of her half brother. The whole article needs work. She was not an evil woman, but very much a woman of her times - and, beyond any shadow of a doubt, a poor ruler. -- Secisek (talk) 07:45, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Mary was, indeed, a poor ruler, but think about it. Her father virtually abandoned her. He broke from Roman Catholicism at the same time that he ended his marriage with Catherine of Aragon. Mary's mother was deeply religious and Mary followed her example, yet their religion was Catholicism. Protestantism flourished as a result of King Henry's break with the Roman Catholic church. This, no doubt, caused Mary to try and stamp out Protestantism for the sake of her mother. I know it's sort of POV, but Mary was just sad and she got carried away with her efforts to restore Catholicism to England. Think about it. If a great number of people were completely against everything you had been taught as a child, wouldn't you panic and try to stop it?--GeorgiaWillow (talk) 06:58, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

It is always remarkable to me that Mary is called Bloody Mary for having executed about 300 Protestants who plotted to overthrow the government, while Henry VIII and Elizabeth I murdered thousands, wiping out whole towns, depopulating whole regions, simply because those people wanted to observe the religion that they were born into and that they loved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.77.234.147 (talk) 23:28, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Martin&Parker "Th Spanish Armada" talk about Philip and Mary a warship made by queen Mary. Was the most modern warship at that time. Star a navy´s reformation and improvement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Nonsuch_%281603%29 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.32.150.168 (talk) 17:11, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

False Pregnancy
I recently visited Hampton Court in London and I was told that when Mary thought she was pregnant it was stomach cancer. Here it says that it was psychological. I am confused about wheather or not to edit this.

Lenosy (talk) 00:38, 24 February 2011 (UTC) Lenosy

The Name
i think the name should be " Mary I, Bloody Mary Tudor". it sounds better in my point just saying.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DeanShadow (talk • contribs) 23:29, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Name
It seems to me that the Bloody Mary sobriquet should be mentioned in the first few lines as an alternative title in bold face, like the way for instance The Virgin Queen is mentioned in the article on Elizabeth I. It is the most common way to refer to her, in my experience.--178.155.235.103 (talk) 14:59, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Dubious
I fail to see how Mary I enjoyed the style Royal Highness as a princess; it wasn't even invented yet! The first person to use Royal Highness was Gaston of Orleans, many decades after Mary's demise. -- Jack1755 (talk) 20:36, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I removed it. Odd, I thought I had already placed the dubious tag there. I haven't found any source that refers to her as HRH Princess Mary of England or HG Lady Mary Tudor so I believe it was another editor's OR. Surtsicna (talk) 20:51, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

George III (I think) was the first person to introduce the style of Royal Highness into the British Royal Family. On the TV Drama series The Tudors, Mary is referred to sometimes as 'Her Highness The Princess Mary' (I think I heard it once in the scene when Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor signs a document about their betrothal). But, as that series has some historical inaccuracies, I'm not sure whether that is entirely correct... Sunshine Moonlight 13 (talk) 23:03, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Philip and Mary I had a close relationship?
Elizabeth (film) claims that Philip and Mary I had a close relationship and cites Loades and Whitelock. Do they really say that? That's not what I gathered from this article. Surtsicna (talk) 20:23, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Given that the material added here uses the exact same references as used in this article (Loades, p. 305; Whitelock, p. 300 and Waller, pp. 98–99; Whitelock, p. 268), I assume that the information has been copied from this article rather than taken from the sources direct. The sources indicate that Mary loved Philip but Philip did not love Mary. DrKay (talk) 20:45, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Tidy up Ancestry?
I arrived at this page while correcting a bad link to Mary Tudor. I suggest that, once the vandalism problems are over, some time should be put into tidying up this section. I am loath to try because I don't understand the family tree template syntax. (i) The Ahnenfatel subtitle is meaningless to any one who does not know that it is the name of a template family: why not head it "Ancestors of Mary I"? (ii) the first family tree is visually difficult to understand unless one takes time to look carefully; (iii) The dates given for sovereigns are their dates of birth and death, but might easily be taken for those of their reigns in some cases, and (iv) Richard III is probably worth a mention as a son of Richard of York and King of England. Jpacobb (talk) 16:03, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Richard III is not included because he is not relevant enough to be mentioned in the text, and thus not relevant enough to be in the family tree (i.e. only people mentioned in the text are included in the family tree, which is supposed to illustrate how Mary was related to people who affected her life). I'm not sure what you mean by saying that the tree is visually difficult to understand. Is it difficult to understand who was whose parent and who was whose spouse? Surtsicna (talk) 17:01, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the family tree itself is fine. The inclusion of Richard III would only serve to confuse, and, while relevant to the earlier Tudors' articles, is not necessary here. The removal of the birth and death dates would address any confusion between regnal dates and lifespans, or an alternative would be to trial the inclusion of regnal dates only without lifespans. Should we use an English term instead of "Ahnentafel", such as "Pedigree"? Or move the "Ancestry" heading to the ancestral table, and change the full section title to "Genealogy" or similar? DrKay (talk) 17:10, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

"Bloody" Mary or Bloody Henry and Elizabeth
It is interesting to me that, as I guess should only be expected, Mary Tudor has been called "Bloody Mary", when in fact executions during her reign amounted to perhaps 283, a number that pales in comparison to both her father Henry VIII (many thousands, perhaps as high as 72,000) and also to Queen Elizabeth I who martyred a combined total of 522 English and Irish Catholics. Funny how history is written to favor the victors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jservorum (talk • contribs) 14:35, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Elizabeth was known as "Bloody Bess", see - Lugnad (talk) 07:43, 4 August 2011 (UTC)


 * If those figures are correct for the two queens (I'm assuming that claim for Henry is bogus), then Mary executed about five times as many people per year (283 divided by five years = 56.6 per year) than Elizabeth did (522 in 44 years = 11.9 per year). 98.209.116.7 (talk) 07:40, 4 August 2011 (UTC)


 * These things don't work quite like that. The religious executions under Elizabeth nearly all happened between 1583 and 1593, with some years much busier than others. Moonraker (talk) 07:57, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * without a cite, i would not trust that figure of 522. there is a List of Catholic martyrs of the English Reformation - Lugnad (talk) 08:16, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Mary I burned roughly 300 Protestants at the stake during her five year reign. That is the number of people executed in that manner for their religious beliefs - not the number executed in total. I am not sure where the 522 figure came from, but the Holy See recognizes about 300 Catholic martyrs in England over a period of 146 years (compared to 300 Protestants in 5 years). --68.6.227.26 (talk) 07:01, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Family tree
Would the article benefit from a family tree such as this one? It includes all her relatives mentioned in the article (except for Mary's grandaunt and godmother the Countess of Devon, whom we can easily fit in if nobody minds her being mentioned only once), as well as those through whom she was related to them. If I am not mistaken, this kind of family tree, present in many biographical works, precisely and clearly illustrates relationships between the subject and relevant individuals. Surtsicna (talk) 22:18, 1 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree that the information in this tree is useful, but the formatting's wonky. I'm not sure how it would be fixed, since the code's kind of obscure. Could the first couple of entries, beginning with Richard of York on the right-hand side, be re-formatted to match the others? Metheglyn (talk) 02:45, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I think this could be browser/operating system specific: for me, it looks fine in Internet Explorer and Google Chrome on Windows 7 but is essentially unreadable in Chrome on Windows XP. DrKay (talk) 08:32, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I think this could be browser/operating system specific: for me, it looks fine in Internet Explorer and Google Chrome on Windows 7 but is essentially unreadable in Chrome on Windows XP. DrKay (talk) 08:32, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Portrayals
There is a complete lack of references to portrayals of Mary in cinema, stage, the TV, and also the article is missing a gallery so in my opinion it cannot be considered even good article, let alone featured in the future. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.69.225.219 (talk) 07:32, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
 * The complete lack of trivia of that kind (which was split off into the dustbin article Cultural depictions of Mary I of England) is actually a good point that favors the article being featured. DrKay (talk) 08:11, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

"Determinedly" vs "Steadfastly"
We have a nice gradation of English words to describe this - running from "stubbornly", "unbendingly", "determinedly", to "steadfastly", and perhaps even "faithfully". In most contexts, assuming we are aiming for NPOV, we would prefer something near the middle of this sequence - "stubbornly" indicates a degree of negative criticism while "steadfastly" implies admiration - I think "determinedly" hits the NPOV button just about right. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 04:17, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

"Ultimately" vs "Later"
Sound, you commented ""ultimately" is fairer in this case (Mary at first intended to spare Jane but it was found to be politically impossible - no need to say this outright, but...."

You seem to be implying a lot with "ultimately". I did not get that meaning when I read the sentence the first time, and would expect that few readers would. We should always be explicit when writing in Wikipedia, instead of implying things. I think that "ultimately' just comes across here as a grandiose way of saying "later", and simpler writing is preferred to more complex writing. I do not think that "ultimately" adds any meaning here. If you think that it is important to raise the issue of Mary's merciful intent and the political necessity of violence, then I think you should do so clearly. Otherwise, let's go for simplicity. Ground Zero &#124; t 15:14, 22 January 2016 (UTC)


 * "Later" is a very poor synonym indeed for "ultimately", which means something more like "finally". It is also not really "simpler", unless perhaps we are writing for children, or people in the very early stages of learning English as a second language. "Writing down" to potential readers, and assuming they will not pick up a fairly clear implication is never good policy. "Ultimately" is not, for an adult who is either a native speaker of English, or has more or less mastered it, a "difficult" word, surely? As for "complex" or "grandiose" - I'm afraid you've lost me entirely. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 05:31, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Date of Portrait (edit verification)
A "new" IP (nor necessarily a new editor) changed date of the famous Mor portrait to 1553. At a quick look into this one 1554 seems more likely really, as the first full year of Mary's reign - it is also clearly dated "1554" in the Mor article. On balance - the edit should not be accepted, even if it may not be actual vandalism. With a cite to a good source it may be reinstated, in which case the Mor article would need to be changed to match. -Soundofmusicals (talk) 02:45, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
 * The source of the file (Prado in Madrid) says 1554. DrKay (talk) 07:47, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

File:Maria Tudor1.jpg to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Maria Tudor1.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on March 18, 2016. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2016-03-18. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:59, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Start of reign
I just reverted an edit setting the infobox start of her reign to 19 July. I feel the complex situation around the succession means that it is better to just leave it as July (with a ref which mentions the different dates) in the infobox and let the article prose explain the detail. There are reasonable arguments for both 6 July and 19 July, it depends how you view the history (which, arguably, is written by those whose heads are still attached to their shoulders). If Jane's period of power was illegal or contrary to the rules of succession, then Mary was the monarch from the instant of Edward's death, regardless of proclamations to the contrary. Murph 9000 (talk) 05:28, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Why wasn't Mary's marriage a solution to the King's great matter?
This paragraph said that, according to Loades, marrying Mary off and hoping for a grandson was considered a possible solution to the lack of male heirs, but supposedly Mary was so sickly that she was not expected to give birth during Henry's lifetime. Is this really what Loades says? It seems contradictory to this article and not very sensible anyway. Surtsicna (talk) 12:59, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Mary of England (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 21:02, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Current (9/1/'18) edit war
The passage concerned is well cited, factual, non-emotive, and reasonably NPOV. It most certainly doesn't warrant the current attack. Mary is one of those people who arouse strong emotions, even today. All the more reason for us to do our best to be as impartial as we can. Specifically:
 * Writers critical of Mary may well have "hated her" - but to say this kind of thing in an encyclopedia article (or any other academic setting for that matter) is at best making unscholarly assumptions about others' state of mind. This would get marked down in a junior high-school essay so why should it pass muster here?
 * Dictionaries can have RS status in certain contexts, but this isn't one of them. What the OED records about "Bloody Mary" is the earliest published use of the term the compilers could find - before the advent of modern media, not to mention the the internet, things like this very often hung about for a good while before they got into print (or at least into a printed source that has survived) - so "17th century" is actually more "accurate" as a description of what we can be sure of. Since Mary is a sixteenth century figure that fact that the sobriquet was not contemporary is already made quite clearly enough. Hammering it, assuming we don't want to make a rhetorical point) is totally inappropriate.  --Soundofmusicals (talk) 05:26, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Cause of death
This article states that Mary died of cancer but the source I used to expand this article strongly indicates that she died of influenza after she became infected at the same time Cardinal Pole did in November 1558. I do know that most cancer patients in modern times die of complications due to cancer and not cancer itself. Was the influenza infection in her weakened state what killed her? Or is the info in this article or the info in my source (last one in the refs section) bogus?


 * FWIW, I have a ref that also states influenza. Probably the question is not answerable from web sources. Refs to look for in a med library would be:
 * Medvei VC. The illness and death of Mary Tudor. J R Soc Med. 1987 Dec;80(12):766-70. PMID: 3323514 [PubMed]
 * Osborn ML. Mary Tudor and the empty cradle. Midwife Health Visit. 1974 Oct;10(10):313-6. PMID: 4610320 [PubMed]
 * -- Nunh-huh 20:25, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I would also like somebody to look over my modest expansion of this article to make sure everything is right since my seondary source was the 1911 EB article and my primary source was a bit biased (see above talk section). --mav 08:27, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The article states:- "Mary was interred in Westminster Abbey on 14 December, in a tomb she would eventually share with her half-sister." The article on St. james palace states :- " Mary I died there, with her heart and bowels being buried in the palace's Chapel Royal.", clearly there is a contradiction that needs to be resolved. I would have edited but the article is protected. Could the moderator please modify in line with this. Beadlebum 23:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I just retitled this section in the discussion due to a bit of petty vandalism Wavy (talk) 15:56, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Here's a reference to the pituitary cancer theory: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1291141/ --Butterwo (talk) 10:25, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

See also https://thefreelancehistorywriter.com/2018/02/23/the-illnesses-and-death-of-queen-mary-i/ and http://www.kyrackramer.com/2017/11/17/the-sad-reign-of-mary-i-comes-to-an-end/comment-page-1/#comment-18104. Mcljlm (talk) 14:44, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 6 June 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 16:01, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Mary I of England → Mary I – I am proposing that the title be changed to Mary I. This title is more concise and complies with Wikipedia's guideline to use commonly recognizable names per WP:COMMONNAME. It seems like in WP:NCROY, the form X of Y is used even if the name could be shorter. Exceptions to the rule include Napoleon, Napoleon II, Napoleon III, Queen Victoria, Edward VII, George V, Edward VIII, George VI, and Elizabeth II. Please feel free to discuss your thoughts here. 2601:183:101:58D0:60A6:6DB:8B80:B46A (talk) 21:53, 6 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Oppose This is nonsense. Napoleon is a distinct name and the British monarchs ruled multi-national empires, hence no specified dominion. – Conservatrix (talk) 00:10, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Support. I have a dream in which Wikipedians rise up against the oppression of NCROY and adopt royalty titles consistent with those found in published encyclopedias. See Columbia and Britannica. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 04:09, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Support. It's clearly the WP:CommonName. Rreagan007 (talk) 05:07, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * (Qualified) Oppose Henry VII, Henry VIII, Edward VI and Elizabeth I (i.e. all the other Tudor monarchs) all have "of England" so all these articles would need changing for consistency - on the other hand relatively recent British monarchs manage quite well without. Do we really need "one rule to ring them all"? In a way it might be neater - on the other hand the Tudor monarchs are less well-known, at least among non-English speakers, and there may well be a little more justification for what is really a "disambiguation" extension to the article title. The real reason I tend to be opposed to the proposed change is that it would be rather silly without changing a good many other articles, and would not (after all that effort) add anything to the value of Wikipedia. When suggesting change the onus must be on the proposer to suggest an improvement inherent in the new form. I can see none, for the life of me! --Soundofmusicals (talk) 07:26, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose The new title would cause confusion with Mary I, Countess of Menteith, Mary I of Scotland, and Maria I of Portugal. And I would vote to rename the articles above. Napoleon I without mentioning France is atrocious. (Columbia and Britannica are awful excuses for encyclopedias. I joined Wikipedia because I was disatisfied with them. ) Dimadick (talk) 19:14, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * "Other encyclopedias are among the sources that may be helpful in deciding what titles are in an encyclopedic register, as well as what names are most frequently used," per WP:COMMONNAME. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 00:38, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * In itself a very sensible remark and a sound general policy, but being "helpful in deciding" is not precisely the same thing as to be mindlessly followed even at the expense of general usefulness - at last it wasn't last time I looked. Disambiguation, in particular, is a radically different (and far more intransigent) problem in an online encyclopedia than it is in a print based one. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 01:07, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose for the likelihood of simply generating confusion, as mentioned above. (I can also see it causing confusion with the boat.) Mannanan51 (talk) 04:38, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 * The purpose of a title is to tell the reader the name of the subject. It does happen from time to time that a name may refer to more than one thing. We do not have the authority to rename topics for our convenience! The subject is not called "Mary I of England" in the RS or even in the running text of this article. The opening sentence and the portrait on the right makes it immediately obvious what the article is about. No one is going to read a significant portion of the article and then think, "I certainly never heard of a boat like this before." Nine Zulu queens (talk) 05:15, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not the national encyclopedia of Britain, where English monarchs are referenced in shorthand while "foreign" princes need a specification. England is foreign to all but the English. The title should directly identify the subject. – Conservatrix (talk) 05:34, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 * No, they'll say, "Where's the article on the boat?" Mannanan51 (talk) 06:07, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 * How does "of England" solve that problem? It just misleads the reader regarding what name she is generally called. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 07:52, 11 June 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary
The following paragraph seems to have become controversial:
 * Many scholars trace the nursery rhyme Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary to Mary's unpopular attempts to bring Roman Catholicism back to England, identfying the "cockle shells," for example, with the symbol of pilgrimage to the shrine of Saint James in Spain and the "pretty maids all in a row" with nuns. However, there is also a school of thought which contends that the rhyme was based on the life of Mary's cousin, Mary, Queen of Scots.

having been replaced by
 * The nursery rhyme Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary is sometimes said to refer to Mary or to Mary I of Scotland.

and then
 * The nursery rhyme Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary is sometimes said to refer to Mary or to Mary I of Scotland. However, this is probably spurious.

I have certainly heard the (folk?) derivation of the rhyme from either Mary I or Mary, Queen of Scots, before, but have no authoritative references. Can anyone assist? -- ALoan (Talk) 03:45, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * See The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes, Iona and Peter Opie, as to why this is probably spurious. &mdash;Ashley Y 11:57, 7 February 2005 (UTC)

Syphilis and the children of Henry VIII
Though it is sometimes theorized that Henry VIII suffered from syphilis and that the high mortality rate and physical or psychological difficulties of his children arise from that fact, it is important to note that this is a theory, far from the only theory, and certainly not fact. It should also be noted that children acquire congenital syphilis from their mother, not their father, so to "diagnose" congenital syphilis in the children it is necessary to also "diagnose" it in their mothers. - Nunh-huh 07:39, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Fair enough - my source stated it as fact. --mav 08:18, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * A reference (I haven't seen the article) that postulates that her headaches and visual difficulties were due to prolactinoma, a pituitary tumor, is Keynes M. "The aching head and increasing blindness of Queen Mary I.", J Med Biogr. 2000 May;8(2):102-9.

PMID: 10994057 [PubMed]. - Nunh-huh 20:25, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Many historians note that the issue of Henry VIII's syphilis infection -- and the infection of his children -- was never addressed by historians and writers of the time. It first appears about 100 years after his death. Congenital syphilis has significant physical symptoms very early in life, and would have been a point of discussion, at least by the "disloyal" opposition. In many views, this story is likely a political "slander" by a succeeding dynasty, or a foreign one -"taking pot shots" at opponents and their ancestors.

Oh, Mary's half sister, Elizabeth I also suffered from severe migraine-like headaches and problems with visual accuity. These problems both run (together) in my family too -- so, they could have been genetic. WBardwin 07:28, 5 April 2005 (UTC)

Religious Persicution
Mary Tudor was a Catholic and none of you out there can deny thins yes? Well I am just wondering how the religios persicution against them exspecialy by her father for sarting the church of england. how did this efect her child-hood? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.154.246.64 (talk • contribs) 02:03, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

"Mary, the fourth and penultimate monarch barfly of the Tudor dynasty, is remembered for her attempt to return Nigeria from Protestantism to Roman Catholicism." I just changed "Nigeria" back to "England", but props to the joker who wrote this one — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edaderkas (talk • contribs) 01:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Not a Habsburg
Nobody in their right mind has ever called Mary Tudor a Habsburg or counted her among Habsburgs. Mary Tudor was, quite simply, a Tudor. Surtsicna (talk) 23:38, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Agreed, Surtsicna. However, it should be noted that Dimadick is currently under a 72-hour ban for edit warring. – Conservatrix (talk) 02:01, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

RFC Hatnote disambig with Mary, Queen of Scots

 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the article include another hatnote for Mary, Queen of Scots, who ruled Scotland at the same time Mary I ruled England and the two are somtimes confused?

An edit for this was reverted under the explanation that Mary, Q of S is covered under:

... but Mary, Queen of Scots is rarely referred to as a "Mary I".

Facts707 (talk) 14:25, 30 September 2018 (UTC)


 * We could probably merge the two into:


 * Celia Homeford (talk) 11:06, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I favour this idea. William Avery (talk) 11:48, 3 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Celia Homeford's suggestion of merging the two into a single hatnote seems like a good one. Kerberous (talk) 04:21, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
 * The merged hatnote sounds good. If there's no opposition to this, I suggest someone just do it. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 09:09, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I've done it. I don't think we need to keep the RfC open for a small change like this. Celia Homeford (talk) 09:46, 10 October 2018 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sectarianism
Is she really still such a heroine to Catholics (or was she ever, really) that practically everything we say about her in a negative sense needs a "to her Protestant opponents"? Fair enough once or twice, especially at the point where we mention her "Bloody Mary" epithet for instance - but it starts to get monotonous after a while. Bashing the sectarian drum is perhaps something we might try to avoid, at least as a general rule? --Soundofmusicals (talk) 15:25, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 * It's what the sources say. Sixteenth, seventeenth and eighteenth century commentators need to be distinguished by religion as it colors their opinions in a way not found nowadays. DrKay (talk) 16:58, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 * A bit hard on Catholics, even sixteenth century ones, to assume that the only people opposed to her extreme measures were Protestants! Still, let that pass I suppose. -Soundofmusicals (talk) 07:41, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Inappropriate image
A determined effort to insert an (at best) unnecessary and (at worst) totally inappropriate image into the article needs resistance - I have used up my three "free" reverts, I fear - can anyone offer their help? Or since this is due to an editor not usually given to vandalism, can s/he actually look at the effect of the edit and give the matter a moment's thought? --Soundofmusicals (talk) 02:49, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Or you could respond and explain yourself on your talk, where I raised the matter! Why is it so terrible to illustrate the mother of the subject? Johnbod (talk) 02:54, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I have already done so (we are obviously working at the same time)! To respond here as well - the subject of this article is STILL a highly controversial figure (insane, not to say obscene, as that may seem). We MUST, in a general encyclopedia, avoid any suggestion of either vilifying or sanctifying the lady in question. Illustrating her mother with a representation of the Virgin seems to do both at once (according to point of view), as I would expect someone of you artistic sensitivity to have detected for themselves. Even if this was not the case, while illustrating an article with a "picture of the subject's mother" is certainly not deprecated - neither is it compulsory, nor in fact usual. What is the specific justification for it in this case? --Soundofmusicals (talk) 03:14, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't see that I need one for illustrating the mother - look at any other English queen, or king from this date onwards! It is precisely "usual". Frankly I just don't see what you are on about, or how on earth a picture of her mother would risk "vilifying or sanctifying the lady". Johnbod (talk) 03:26, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I am trying very hard to work out which of us is being thoroughly thick. The image includes an icon of the Virgin Mary (sacred to many Catholics - and blasphemous and/or idolatrous to some Protestants) - its inclusion in this context neatly manages to be offensive to both. An authentic picture of the mature Catherine of Aragon (perhaps from her article?) would be a totally different question - in fact why not have one of Henry VIII while we're at it? Probably a matter of relevance/notability, and that this is a historical/biographical article rather than (say) one on the history of art. The illustration proposed does not serve to "break up a large block of whitespace" - since it is almost adjacent to a much more relevant portrait of the subject herself when young. In fact it is largely irrelevant clutter at best. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 12:35, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I think that would be you! You absurdly over-estimate the religious and historical sensitivities involved. There is in fact an unseemly white block, but you seem to dislike images at all. I repeat, it is perfectly normal to illustrate the parents of a subject where there is room, which there is here. Johnbod (talk) 15:42, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * It would be hard to object to a small composite graphic of her two parents - similar to that illustrating the article for Elizabeth I - although I would still rather not break the usual pattern (nobody else linked to Mary's article is illusrated with a portrait of either parent). --Soundofmusicals (talk) 13:02, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Looking at this from the POV of a card-carrying atheist, it seems to me that
 * (a) a thumbnail pic of each of her parents (so 50% each of the standard thumbnail) would be reasonable thing to have.
 * (b) the right-hand image of the pair that Johnbod wants to include is indeed questionable: she is shown holding a baby but the caption says that it is "at the time of her marriage", which contradicts the non-consummation statement in the article. I suspect that the "Madonna and Child" equivalence of this image is what is disturbing Soundofmusicals but it seems to me that it is misleading anyway given that it is unexplained. Whose baby is it anyway?

So may I suggest that you can each compromise with a new compound image of Catherine holding gold cup from proposed image, paired with one of Henry minus middle-age paunch? --Red King (talk) 16:21, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * It is baby Jesus. The left hand image is Catherine as Mary Magdalene, the right hand as the Virgin and Child. Who modelled for the baby is unknown! Johnbod (talk) 17:15, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * How certain is the identification of the sitter in the portrait under discussion? The provenance only seems to go back to 1931. DrKay (talk) 16:52, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * There are the two "portraits", clearly of the same individual. The current consensus seems to be that Catherine is the probable subject, although certainty is missing (the Vienna portrait is now thought to be Mary herself). For example, the National Gallery of Art in Washington was happy to call the Detroit Magdalene Catherine of Aragón as the Magdalene, in their 2018 Sittow exhibition. These have the advantage of being high-quality portraits of an individual, where all other portraits of Catherine (except the middle-aged Horenbout) are low quality eighth-hand productions that might as well have been modelled on playing-cards. Johnbod (talk) 17:13, 19 January 2020 (UTC)


 * I am not fundamentally opposed to a portrait of Catherine in Mary's article; (although no rational reason has been raised as to why it is particularly important to have one).
 * Assuming we DO want to include a portrait - its authenticity is very important indeed - i.e. how certain is it that the person represented is Catherine herself? I take it that Johnbod's statement that "certainty is missing" be taken at face value? That should disqualify the Sittow, whether combined with a picture of the Virgin and Child or not. If the Horenbout portrait is unquestionably of Catherine, then why not substitute that? The fact that she is pictured as no longer in the first flush of youth would seem to be a very trivial objection in comparison to any "lack of certainty" that it is even her.
 * There is "in fact" no "unseemly white block" whatever (at least I cannot see one on my PC - however I fiddle the scale of the display). The portrait would in fact be separated by only a handful of lines from one of Mary as a child, so that it would do little or nothing to eliminate an "unseemly white block", even if it existed.
 * I certainly have no objections to appropriate illustrations per se, in fact I have added many images to articles (and commons) over the years - but if I did that would still be an extremely silly ad hominem argument (at the risk of descending to ''ad hominem' myself).
 * Even if I was exaggerating the religious significance of images of the Virgin and Child in this context it alone should also disqualify this particular image, given that the article itself still attracts a good deal of "religiously inspired" vandalism. Mary herself is still a controversial figure - some Catholics regarding her as a quasi-saintly personage, and some non-catholics as the devil incarnate (insane, even obscene, as I have previously remarked, but true, alas).
 * SO! What exactly, does Johnbod actually want? Provided we are agreed that the original image (still the only one that s/he has seriously proposed) is ruled out. Suggest an alternative. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 00:49, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
 * As an aside, if the National Gallery of Art says that the portrait is of Catherine (as Magdalene), then that it an unambiguously reliable source (attribution is their expertise, after all) and we should take their word for it. 90% of readers would miss the association completely and only the most religiously zealous would find an implied insult. This image remains to me uncontroversial and worthy of inclusion. OTOH, the Madonna image is just confusing to the uninitiated ("oh, did she have a babe in arms when she married Henry, then?") and deliberately provocative to the religious zealots. I really don't understand why anyone would want to keep that half. --Red King (talk) 14:14, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, fair enough. It could be coupled with one of Dad, but really everyone knows what he looks like. Johnbod (talk) 03:55, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I think the consensus here is that the "inappropriate" image is indeed inappropriate - but there would be little or no objection to an more appropriate one illustrating either or both of Mary's parents. (As an aside of my own - Catherine was older than Henry, and they were both on the verge of middle age before their marriage broke down ireperably, so to be fair middle-aged portraits of both would be fair.) In fact one is tempted to put something together oneself. But it is really up to either Johnbod or Rajputudor, (who inserted the inappropriate image in the first place) to add something more appropriate, perhaps on this talk page in the first instance. Assuming either editor thinks it would be worth the bother. Otherwise, might I suggest we have wasted enough time already? --Soundofmusicals (talk) 12:06, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

"Her attempts .. was largely thwarted"
, my first reaction was the same as yours. . but looking at the article body, I saw one prominent and important attempt to reverse the Dissolution - and no mention of anything further / else. (But did I miss owt?) So, halfway through the process, I edited my edit(!) to go for the singular.

But I get the feeling U know about the topic (and clearly know more than I do: U couldn't know much less!) Can U amend the article body? Even just a phrasing tweak hinting tht the unsuccessful attempt on accession was not the last of the matter.

Otherwise my edit agrees with the article; and alludes concisely to an important detail in the body (and it has slightly less weasely tone).

( Love Ur username! )

--'' SquisherDa (talk) 09:13, 26 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Suspect you might be right after all - in any case not something to break hearts over! As Mary was such a stubborn [person] (word changed to avoid accusations of sexism) I was assuming she made at least a couple of tries to get this through parliament, but I hadn't actually checked the article itself. The subject of Mary (and the Tudors in general) is not one I have a particularly profound background in, although my first degree was in history. Most of my edits here have been "graffiti removal" rather than correction of the facts. My username reflects my initial intention to work mostly on musical theatre articles, but I have largely abandoned these. Yes, I thought it was very witty myself, although I believe you may be the first fellow editor to actually notice! --Soundofmusicals (talk) 17:50, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
 * :-) --'' SquisherDa (talk) 17:53, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Mary's title
Any reason why we are excluding Mary's full title from the first paragraph; it was Queen of England, France and Ireland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ematris (talk • contribs) 17:08, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It's covered in a later section. The lead paragraph is only for the most important points. DrKay (talk) 17:18, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

If we're going to do it on that basis, then wouldn't queen of England and three odd counties of Ireland be more appropriate?Ematris (talk) 20:10, 8 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Ireland was not partitioned until 1921 - 363 year years (more or less) after Mary's decease. Arithmetic rules!! Her title as "Queen of France" is in any case in another category, since it was very firmly disputed by (among others) the actual monarch of France, Something of a (dis)courtesy title in fact. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 21:04, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

So you've never heard of the Pale then? A long fence around counties Dublin and Louth (and a little bit of Meath) to keep the English in, behind which they were most properly restrained for 300 years until the reign of the Stuarts. Sound familiar? Mary had as much claim to the title Queen of Ireland as he did to the title Queen of France.86.42.132.115 (talk) 08:08, 9 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Even if your chronology is a little off I think you might actually have a point there. Were the Tudors really monarchs of Ireland? I'd be fine with just "Queen of England" actually - since this IS the lead, and all her formal titles, real or nominal, are listed in the appropriate section. Objectors speak now or we'll cut "Ireland" from the lead. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 02:46, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Indicating relationships to Mary I
Hello I would like to discuss this on talk so we can figure out what the best solution is to the article. I don't want to receive a block on edit warring and I think this is the best way to come up with a solution. It says but her cousin Charles V suggested she marry his only son, Prince Philip of Spain., but I was wondering what your thoughts on changing it to but her first cousin Charles V suggested she marry his only son, Prince Philip of Spain. Interstellarity (talk) 16:56, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The article already says he's her first cousin, and there's a family tree. I don't see the need to repeat the same fact. DrKay (talk) 16:59, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the thoughts and I think I going to have to agree with you on this. I think we can end the discussion here. Interstellarity (talk) 17:00, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Mary I (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 17:04, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Portrait of Phillip and Mary
Phillip's very large head looks like it was added to a per-existing smaller body. Seki1949 (talk) 22:22, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 03:32, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Mary I (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 15:33, 22 December 2022 (UTC)