Talk:Mary Lincoln Crume

Major issues
The article reads extremely choppy and cold use alot of cleanup. Is notability established becasue she is the aunt of abe?., I see nothing in this article that really suggests shes notable beyond this, and notability isnt inhereted in wiki. I think the article being condensed gives it a better chance of not falling through the cracks. Im condensing and removing this material below, mostly cause i dont see how its very notable aside from tracing lincolns ancestry which would make another article. If anyone objects to my removals please feel free to re-add them with a meaningful explanation why Ottawa4ever (talk) 22:32, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Removed text
NOTE: It is believed that Ralph Crume, Jr.'s Uncle, Daniel Edgar Crume, b. 1758 was with Mary Lincoln, b. 1775, and they had Sarah (b. 1792) and Elizabeth W. (b. 1793/4) Crume, prior to Mary Lincoln remarrying to Ralph, Jr. His nephew Ralph Crume, Jr., b. 1779, would have been only 12 or 13 years old to have sired each child during those years. We find between 1790-1796, Daniel Crume and Mary Lincoln, with her brother Mordecai, and sister Nancy Ann Lincoln living in Washington Co., Kentucky, on the same road at the same time. The names, of Daniel Crume and Mordecai Lincoln shows up on a road petition together (see "The Lincoln Kinship"). Ralph Crume, Jr. was living in Nelson Co., Kentucky during those years.

It was a well known, that Sarah Crume Hasty would travel from *Preble Co., Ohio with her son, Rueben Hasty to take her to see her sisters in Rossville, Clinton Co., Indiana. Her sisters were Susannah Crume Weathers and Elizabeth W. Crume Davis. Susannah lived next door to her half-sister Elizabeth W. Crume Davis, and lived with her half-neice Sena Davis Wells (See 1860 census - Rossville, Clinton Co., Indiana). While Sarah, Susannah and Elizabeth visited together in Clinton Co., Indiana in 1861, they knitted the socks that were sent with a letter to President Abraham Lincoln, and he replied:

To Mrs. Susannah Weathers Rossville, Clinton Co, Ind. Executive Mansion, My dear Madam Washington, Dec. 4, 1861.

I take great pleasure in acknowledging the receipt of your letter of Nov. 26; and in thanking you for the present by which it was accompanied. A pair of socks so fine, and soft, and warm, could hardly have been manufactured in any other way than the old Kentucky fashion. Your letter informs me that your maiden name was Crume, and that you were raised in Washington county, Kentucky, by which I infer that an uncle of mine by marriage was a relative of yours. Nearly, or quite sixty years ago, Ralph Crume married Mary Lincoln, a sister of my father, in Washington county, Kentucky. Accept my thanks, and believe me Very truly Your friend, A. LINCOLN.

Susannah/Susanna Crume Weathers, b. 1783, Virginia, d. 25 Aug 1862, Rossville, Clinton Co., Indiana, married Jesse Weathers in 19 Jun 1804, Washington Co., Kentucky. Susannah is known to be the daughter of Daniel Edgar Crume and Mary Dodson.

ANOTHER NOTE FOR THE RECORD: In the 1850 census in *Preble Co., Ohio, Sarah Crume Hasty is listed with her husband, James, and next door is their son, Rueben Hasty, with his wife Sarah Berry Hasty. In this same household, Rueben is the Head in the census, but also, in this census is Salina/Selina Lincoln Davis living with them. Salina is Sarah Crume Hasty's neice and another daughter of Elizabeth W. Crume Davis, and her husband Robert. Robert and Elizabeth W. Crume Davis are living in 1850, per the census in Rossville, Clinton Co., Indiana with some of their other children: Elizabeth Jane Davis (marries Emanuel Snider, b. 1817, d. 1888 in 1858 - after Emanuel dies, 9 years later Elizabeth Jane Davis Snider marries Daniel Basore in 1897), Jesse Silas Davis (marries Mary E. Huntley in 1880), James Harvey Davis (marries Unknown) and Pliney Moses Davis (marries Emmeline Nagel in 1862).

Sisters Sarah Crume Hasty and Elizabeth W. Crume Davis are known to be: 1st Cousins of President Abraham Lincoln, and their descendents are 1st Cousins of President Abraham Lincoln, removed with each generation. Ottawa4ever (talk) 22:33, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Date of death
I was surprised to see the date of death quoted at 1882, since that would have made her 107 years old when she died. Not unimaginable, but certainly highly unusual in those days. I see the article originally had her date of death as 1851, which seems more plausible. I wonder if there is some confusion between Mary Lincoln Crume and Mary Todd Lincoln? Mary Todd Lincoln did die in 1882. It seems a bit of a coincidence that they both died in the same year. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find a reliable source for Mary Lincoln Crume's date of death. Can someone with access to a wider range of historical texts find a reliable source to clarify the actual date of death? Thanks, Sparthorse (talk) 09:40, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

CONFUSION BETWEEN TWO MARY CRUME'S
I deleted the following note that was added to the reference list:

In note 3 to Wikipedia's section on Thomas Lincoln, who is Mary Lincoln's brother, it says that "Mary Crume" (which is Mary Lincoln's married name) was buried in the "Lincoln Memorial Cemetery which overlooks Mill Creek in Fort Knox.[18]" As shown in this quote, a citation to source 18 is given. This information about where Mary Lincoln Crume is buried seems to contradict the information in Mary Lincoln's section, which says she was "buried in the cemetery at Crume Valley in Breckenridge county, Kentucky. [Citation needed.]"

The reason is because the note in Thomas Lincoln's article should read (and has been changed to read) "Mary Brumfield Crume" who was the daughter of Nancy Lincoln Brumfield and her husband, as clearly stated in the article cited above. The Mary Crume in the article is NOT MARY LINCOLN CRUME, the sister of Thomas Lincoln. Mary Brumfield married the son of Mary Lincoln Crume, Ralph Lincoln Crume. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drmissio (talk • contribs) 13:17, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Comments About Mary Lincoln Crume
In the published article, Mary Crume is given a middle name "Ada". Unless this can be proven and cited, it should be removed. To my knowledge, no public record or Bible record has been found to say that any of Captain Abraham Lincoln's children had middle names. This is also the case with Daniel Crume. No evidence has been found to prove that his middle name was "Edgar." Only one of Philip Crume's children had a middle name and that was his son Philip, probably given to him to distinguish him from his father. The name was Withers, but it is not used in most legal documents. Daniel Crume is not listed with a middle name in his land transactions, his father's will, his father's Bible account of the family, or any other court actions involving Daniel. To be accurate with what is known in the public records, both Mary Lincoln and Daniel Crume should be listed without middle names. Reference can be made to a recent book by Diane McAdams Gladow, A Journey of Voices: Stewards of the Land, which contains listings of the land, court and Bible records of the early Crume family.

Under "Marriage and Children," the issue of the relationship between Daniel Crume and Mary Lincoln is noted. There have been no records found to indicate a legal marriage or divorce, so these terms should not be used. It is possible that there was no relationship, but there is evidence from old family interviews and letters (belonging to the daughters of the union) that a relationship may have existed. There is little doubt that Daniel Crume was the father of the two girls born of this relationship because they carried his name and he raised them. The relationship should be listed as a "frontier marriage" or "common law marriage" and that the relationship was dissolved. There was no divorce. Mary Lincoln Crume's marriage bond when she married Ralph Crume Jr. simply stated that she was eligible to be married, and it was signed by her brother Mordecai. Reference can be made to Washington County, Kentucky marriage records for 1801. Also, "jr." should be added to Ralph Crume's name to avoid confusion with his father. There were four generations of men named Ralph Crume and they all married a Mary, making four Mary Crumes. This has caused much confusion.

There is no official death date for Mary Lincoln Crume or her children by Ralph Crume Jr. The last possible mention of Mary in public records may have occurred in a Breckinridge County, Kentucky, court case in 18 October 1832. The document mentions a Mary Crume, widow, as being present in the courtroom that day, but it depends upon how the document is interpreted if the widow was Mary Lincoln Crume or Mary Riggs Crume. Mary Lincoln Crume does not appear in the 1840 census alone or with her children or siblings, so it can be assumed that she died circa 1832 or before 1840. The death date of 1851 is for Mary Brumfield Crume and 1882 is for Mary Todd Lincoln. The last reference to Mary's son, Dr. William Crume, is a Breckinridge County, KY newspaper notice in November 1883 (Newspaper Abstracts of Breckinridge County, Kentucky). He probably died within a year or two thereafter because he was old and ill. The last reference to Ralph Lincoln Crume, Mary's other son, was a newspaper notice in 1890, and because of his age, he probably died a year or two thereafter. (Newspaper Abstracts of Breckinridge County, Kentucky, pp 133-134. Her daughter Ann married Charles Hoskinson, and no public record has been found concerning them after 1837 except for Charles being named in his father's estate settlement in 1855 in Hardin County.  In 1837 they sold some land in Vermilion County, Indiana.  All land and court records may be accessed through the counties or through Mrs. Gladow's book, A Journey of Voices: Stewards of the Land (2012).

Mary Lincoln Crume had interactions with her brother, Thomas, and his family through the years. Thomas made her a corner cabinet for her dishes which now resides at the Brown-Pusey House in Elizabethtown, Kentucky. When Thomas moved his family out of Kentucky, he more than likely visited the Ralph Crume family because they lived not too far from where Thomas crossed the Ohio River and went into Indiana. Later, when Thomas returned to Kentucky to marry his second wife and bring her back to Indiana, he used Ralph Crume's wagons and assistance. He could well have done the same on the first trip out to Indiana. President Lincoln referred to his Uncle Ralph and Aunt Mary in a letter he wrote to one of Daniel Crume's daughters, thanking her for some socks she had made and sent to him. (Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library, Springfield Illinois). I have made changes to the Wikipedia article reflecting the above notes. ```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gladwriter (talk • contribs) 19:06, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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