Talk:Mary McCartney/Archive 1

Tense Formations
I'd just like to say that I was correct in changing the tense from 'was' to 'is'. Before I changed the opening sentence, it read as follows Mary Anna McCartney Donald (born in London on 28 August 1969) was the first child born to rock photographer Linda Eastman McCartney and Paul McCartney of The Beatles. Here, 'was', seems to point out that she no longer 'is' the first child of Linda and Paul, and I read this to sound as though she had died. Therefore, my change was correct, whilst she 'was' born, she 'is' and always will be the first child of Linda and Paul. :) Gbrading 00:32, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think this is of utmost importance, and I suppose it might be a difference in British vs American usage, but it seems to me that saying "first child born" rather than "firstborn child" or "eldest child"  requires the "was" - the action of her birth happened in the past.  She was the first child born to them.   If you want to have it in present tense, I think you'd have to use a different phrasing, such as "She is the eldest child of" - but that might be tricky  because of her elder half-sister.   I would not say  "She was the eldest child" - that would indeed imply that she is no longer alive.   But to talk about her status at the time of her birth seems to me of necessity to be in past tense.  (Also note that I had added "is a photographer" too.) We also say she was named after her grandmother - and I think the same thing applies - the action of her naming is in the past, even though she continues to be named after her grandmother.     We could try rewording the sentences to eliminate this problem, if you feel strongly about it as a problem - "She is the firstborn child of" would be ok with me - but not "She is the first child born to". My preference is the was we now have it - she is a photographer, she was the first child born to them, she was named after her grandmother.   Anyone else have thoughts on this?  Tvoz | talk 02:41, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe if we get rid of 'born', and as you suggested and just say, "Mary McCartney is the first child of rock photographer..." etc, as there is no longer any ambiguity in the sentence. Afterall, it is obvious that she was born, as everyone is. It seems to be the clearest solution. You could be right, it might be a US vs. UK English thing this though. I feel rather pedantic about bringing it up, and I'm sorry about that, but I'm just a tiny bit of a stickler for grammar. It was also good adding 'is a photograher', as it clarifies that she isn't dead, which had been my first thought when I saw the sentence before. Thanks for being so understanding! :) Gbrading 21:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * No apology or thanks needed - these little grammatical nuances are fun to me (shows you how exciting my life is...). We're almost there - how does this strike you - just so that we do not start two sentences with "She":
 * Mary Anna McCartney Donald (born in London on 28 August 1969) is a photographer. The first child of rock photographer Linda Eastman McCartney and Paul McCartney of The Beatles, she was named after her grandmother, Mary McCartney, who died of breast cancer when Paul McCartney was fourteen.
 * How's that? (By the way, I'm used to these UK v US debates - did you see the one about The Beatles are vs The Beatles is?) Tvoz | talk 21:42, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, I did it a little differently - and took into consideration the comments in the section below as well as tweaking some more. See what you think. Tvoz | talk 23:45, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it's looking good now the way it is, makes both grammatical and logical sense. I'm happy. Gbrading 15:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Success! Tvoz | talk 03:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Simple
Why not make it simple? Mary Anna McCartney-Donald was the first child born to Linda McCartney and Paul McCartney. Mary was named after Paul McCartney's mother, Mary McCartney.

The complicated birth/marriage stuff is mentioned in the article, is it not? Please don't mention Mary's breast cancer in the Lead - it will only make the younger Mary nervous... --andreasegde 21:52, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I have just noticed that breast cancer is linked three times in the article. --andreasegde 22:01, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I had just continued the breast cancer reference that was in the lead without thinking about it - but I think you're right we should leave it off of the the lead. The issue, though, being discussed above, is whether it should be "Mary... was the first child born to" or "Mary... is the first child born to".  My feeling is that worded that way it has to be "was" - we were trying to come to a compromise that would allow "is" (so no one thinks she's no longer with us), but sound correct grammatically.  I'm trying my new version out, and will get rid of the breast cancer because I agree it doesn't belong there. Subject to change, of course. Tvoz | talk 23:15, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Image
Is there a reason this image was removed from the article? It seems to be a free image, released to Commons:. I would not want to lose the album cover - it is a valid illustration of a point in the article, but why wouldn't we include this one as well? Tvoz | talk 09:15, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

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