Talk:Mary Young Pickersgill/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer: Hchc2009 (talk · contribs) 07:03, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Will read through and begin the review proper later. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:03, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks!Sarnold17 (talk) 09:14, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm going to pause the review for a moment, because of the copyvio and close paraphrasing issues that need resolving before we start getting into copyediting etc. I can't see Marc Leepson's book on line, but I'd really like to confirm that there aren't similar issues with that text as well before passing at GA. Have a look at WP:PARAPHRASE, and see what can be done with the problems identified below. I'll put the review on hold for the time being. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:45, 24 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Right, last bits added below. Hchc2009 (talk) 09:54, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

It is well-written:

(a) the prose is clear and concise, respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct;


 * There's some straight copy-vio issues:
 * "The small family moved into a house at 44 Queen Street (later 844 E. Pratt Street, which became the Star Spangled Banner Flag House and 1812 Museum), and Mary Pickersgill established a flag-making business where she successfully supported her family by designing, sewing, and selling "silk standards, cavalry and division colours of every description," including signal and house flags for the United States Army, United States Navy, and merchant ships that frequented Baltimore’s harbor." (article)
 * " In her home at 44 Queen Street (now 844 E. Pratt Street), she established a flag-making business, where she successfully supported her family, by designing, sewing and selling “silk standards, cavalry and division colours of every description,” including signal and house flags for the U.S. Army, U.S. Navy, and merchant ships that frequented Baltimore’s harbor." (copyrighted source)
 * "Francis Scott Key saw the flag while he was being held on a British ship and was inspired to compose the poem that became the national anthem of the United States" (article)
 * "Francis Scott Key saw Mrs. Pickersgill’s flag while he was held captive on a British ship and was inspired to compose the poem that became the national anthem of the United States" (copyrighted source)
 * "From 1828 until 1851 she was president of the Impartial Female Humane Society that helped impoverished families with school vouchers for children and employment for women. Under her presidency the society established a home for aged women in 1850. By 1869 there were forty-eight residents and, in 1863, a Men’s Home was added, with 27 residents." (article)
 * "From 1828 until 1851, Mary Pickersgill was President of the Impartial Female Humane Society that helped impoverished families with school vouchers for children and employment for women. Under her presidency, the Society established a home for aged women in 1850. By 1869, there were 48 residents and, in 1863, a Men’s Home was added, with 27 residents." (copyrighted source)


 * And we've some very close paraphrasing:
 * " In early summer, 1813, with the help of her 13 year old daughter Caroline, her two nieces Eliza Young (aged 13) and Margaret Young (aged 15); and a 13 year old African American indentured servant, Grace Wisher, Pickersgill was able to get the job done in six weeks. Rebecca Young, her elderly mother, likely helped as well."
 * "Helping Pickersgill make the flags were her thirteen-year-old daughter Caroline; nieces Eliza Young (thirteen) and Margaret Young (fifteen); and a thirteen-year-old African American indentured servant, Grace Wisher. Pickersgill’s elderly mother, Rebecca Young, from whom she had learned flagmaking, may have helped as well." (copyrighted source) Hchc2009 (talk) 07:45, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

(b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.


 * Ths MOS guideline is "As a general rule the "See also" section should not repeat links which appear in the article's body or its navigation boxes." Worth checking through, as as I think a lot of the See also links here are used in the main body of the text.
 * Not strictly a GA requirement, but for FA etc. you'd need to give alternative metric measurements for "The large flag contained over 400 yards..." - ditto 50 lbs etc.
 * Again, not a GA requirement, but if you wanted to you could footnote a comparison figure for the cost of the flag in a footnote. A straight CPI comparison won't work, but you could compare to an average income or something similar. Hchc2009 (talk) 09:54, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Factually accurate and verifiable:

(a) it provides references to all sources of information in the section(s) dedicated to the attribution of these sources according to the guide to layout;


 * I think that the citations really need to give the page number for where the material comes from in each case. For shorter volumes, you might be able to get away without this, but Henry Spencer's book is 756 pages long and Marc Leepson's 352 pages, and WP:CITE would strongly encourage the page number(s) to be given in these cases.
 * "Pickersgill died on October 4, 1857, and is buried in Loudon Park Cemetery in Baltimore. Her daughter Caroline erected a monument for her, and later the United States Daughters of 1812 and the Star Spangled Banner Flag House Association placed a bronze plaque at the foot of her grave" is cited to "Find a Grave". I can't seem to find this information listed there.
 * "The couple had no children, and because of this, Pickersgill has no living descendants." the source given, Ancestry.com, doesn't state that they had no children, it simply doesn't list any (which for this period can't be taken, on itself, as evidence of there being none).

(b) it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines;


 * fn 14 is missing a }
 * fn 5 - the ISBN has a colon in it, which is probably supposed to be a hyphen
 * WP:CITE gives some good guidance on what to include with web sources, typically: "name of the author(s); title of the article within quotation marks; name of the website; date of publication; page number(s) (if applicable); the date you retrieved it (required if the publication date is unknown)." An example, fn 3 would contain something like "Maryland Commission for Women; "Mary Young Pickersgill"; Maryland Women's Hall of Fame, etc." Hchc2009 (talk) 09:54, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

(c) it contains no original research.


 * "The painting, maintained by the Maryland Historical Society, has one small error in that the kegs that are shown bear the name "Claggett." Claggett did not own the brewery until several years after Pickersgill made the Star Spangled Banner flag, and during the time portrayed in the painting, the brew house had just been purchased by George I. Brown and was then called Brown's Brewery." is probably OR, since the mistake isn't mentioned in the source cited, but rather is the result of an editorial comparison between sources. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:45, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Broad in its coverage:

(a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic;


 * Yes. Hchc2009 (talk) 09:54, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

(b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).


 * Yes. Hchc2009 (talk) 09:54, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias, giving due weight to each.


 * Appears neutral so far. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:45, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.


 * Stable. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:24, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Illustrated, if possible, by images:

(a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content;


 * MaryPickersgill.color.jpg - might be worth noting on the description page, that it was published, as well as made, in 1853, if the tag is relying on the pre-1923 publication PD justification. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:24, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

(b) images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.


 * Fine. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:24, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Hello again, and thanks for taking the time to go through this article. Of nearly 100 articles I've written or greatly expanded, this is the only one that has used primarily web sources, and I can see I was lax on the cut and paste. In my mind I made necessary changes, but you have pointed out that this wasn't really so.

Before changing the article, I want you to take a look at the immediate changes to your concerns, and see if you think these are valid. The copyvio on the "Impartial Female Humane Society was quite blatant. The last one, however, I think was by and large OK, because it is essentially giving a list of names, and I've just included the same list of names.  This should not be considered copyvio.  I've tweaked it a bit, making it a bit more consistent, so would like your feedback again.

'''The small family moved into a house at 44 Queen Street (later 844 E. Pratt Street, which became the Star Spangled Banner Flag House and 1812 Museum), and here Pickersgill established a flag-making business, selling "silk standards, cavalry and division colours of every description." Her customers included the United States Army, United States Navy, and merchant ships that visited the harbor in Baltimore'''. (proposed change)
 * " In her home at 44 Queen Street (now 844 E. Pratt Street), she established a flag-making business, where she successfully supported her family, by designing, sewing and selling “silk standards, cavalry and division colours of every description,” including signal and house flags for the U.S. Army, U.S. Navy, and merchant ships that frequented Baltimore’s harbor." (copyrighted source)
 * It's looking much safer, although the "established a flag-making business" and the "merchant ships" bit is still pretty close to the original, particularly given the sequence of the original and adapted paragraphs. One way of tackling this would be to build in a bit more detail - see if you can see Seth Rockman's "Scraping By: Wage Labor, Slavery, and Survival in Early Baltimore", pp.260-261, on-line, which has some more detail that could be built in and would probably make the close-paraphrasing easier to avoid. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:40, 25 August 2012 (UTC)


 * (2nd proposed change): The small family moved into a house at 44 Queen Street (later 844 E. Pratt Street, which became the Star Spangled Banner Flag House and 1812 Museum), and here Pickersgill opened a flag-making business, selling "silk standards, cavalry and division colours of every description."  Her customers included the United States Army, United States Navy, and purchasing agents from commercial ships that visited the harbor in Baltimore.
 * (alternative option, drawing on both Rockman and the Hall of Fame, p.260.): "The small family rented a house at 44 Queen Street (later 844 E. Pratt Street, which became the Star Spangled Banner Flag House and 1812 Museum), where Pickersgill took in boarders and opened a flag-making business, selling "silk standards, cavalry and division colours of every description."  Her customers included the United States Army, United States Navy, and visiting merchant ships."

While negotiating a prisoner exchange aboard a British ship, Francis Scott Key saw the flag, and this inspired him to pen the words to the poem that later became the national anthem of the United States. (proposed change)
 * "Francis Scott Key saw Mrs. Pickersgill’s flag while he was held captive on a British ship and was inspired to compose the poem that became the national anthem of the United States" (copyrighted source)
 * Looks okay to me. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:40, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

'''The Impartial Female Humane Society had been established to help needy Baltimore families with educating their children, and to help destitute women find employment. Pickersgill served as the president of this society from 1828 to 1851, and under her presidency a home for aged women was established in 1850. Following her tenure as president, a home for aged men was built in 1869.''' (proposed change)
 * "From 1828 until 1851, Mary Pickersgill was President of the Impartial Female Humane Society that helped impoverished families with school vouchers for children and employment for women. Under her presidency, the Society established a home for aged women in 1850. By 1869, there were 48 residents and, in 1863, a Men’s Home was added, with 27 residents." (copyrighted source)
 * Looks good. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:40, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

'''In early summer, 1813, with the help of her daughter Caroline (aged 13), her two nieces Eliza Young (aged 13) and Margaret Young (aged 15); and an African American indentured servant, Grace Wisher (aged 13), Pickersgill was able to get the job done in six weeks. Rebecca Young, her elderly mother, likely helped as well.''' (proposed change)
 * And we've some very close paraphrasing:
 * "Helping Pickersgill make the flags were her thirteen-year-old daughter Caroline; nieces Eliza Young (thirteen) and Margaret Young (fifteen); and a thirteen-year-old African American indentured servant, Grace Wisher. Pickersgill’s elderly mother, Rebecca Young, from whom she had learned flagmaking, may have helped as well." (copyrighted source) Hchc2009 (talk) 07:45, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The issue here is less the names per se (there's only so many ways you can portray them!) but presenting them with their ages after them, and with the identical phrases "African American indentured servant", "elderly mother" and "helped as well" in the same order as the original paragraph makes it far too close for comfort. Again, building in additional sources might be a way around this, but if not, my advice would be drop the ages and look at the "indentured" and "helped as well" phrasing. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:40, 25 August 2012 (UTC)


 * (2nd proposed change): While Pickersgill was an able seamstress, such a huge undertaking required additional labor. In early summer 1813 Pickersgill began the task with the help of her daughter, Caroline, her two nieces Eliza Young and Margaret Young, an African American apprentice, Grace Wisher, and likely her elderly mother, Rebecca Young.  Often working late into the evening, the team of seamstresses was able to complete the job in six weeks.
 * (3rd alternative, using both sources) "A task as large as this flag was beyond one person to complete and Pickersgill drew both on members of her household for help and contracted in labor from the immediate neighbourhood. In early summer 1813 Pickersgill began the job with the assistance of her daughter, Caroline, her two nieces Eliza Young and Margaret Young, a free African American apprentice, Grace Wisher, and likely her elderly mother, Rebecca Young; an additional unnamed African American who boarded in the house is also listed as helping in some sources. Additional local seamstresses was hired in over the summer as well. Often working late into the evening, Pickersgill's team was able to complete the job in six weeks."

You were concerned about copyvio from Leepson. I looked at the first three inline citations on Leepson which come from what is quoted here:


 * "Mary Pickersgill was born on February 12, 1776 in Philadelphia. Following the death of her father two years later, Mary's mother, Rebecca Flower Young, supported the family by making flags in Philadelphia at her shop on Walnut Street and, later, in Baltimore.  She made several dozen ensigns, garrison flags, and Continental Colors for the Continental Army and for the Pennsylvania navy.  "All kinds of coulours, for the Army and Navy, made and sold on the most reasonable Terms By Rebecca Young," read her advertisement in the Pennsylvania Packet." (cited material)

This is how I worded the above in the article:

'''Her mother, who became widowed when Mary was two years old, had a flag shop on Walnut Street in Philadelphia where she made ensigns, garrison flags and "Continental Colors" for the Continental Army. Her 1781 advertisement in the Pennsylvania Packet read, "All kinds of colours, for the Army and Navy, made and sold on the most reasonable Terms, By Rebecca Young." Young moved her family to Baltimore, Maryland when Mary was a child, and it was from her mother that Mary learned the craft of flag making. '''(this article)
 * Looks fine - thanks! Hchc2009 (talk) 18:40, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

(b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

Factually accurate and verifiable:

(a) it provides references to all sources of information in the section(s) dedicated to the attribution of these sources according to the guide to layout;


 * I think that the citations really need to give the page number for where the material comes from in each case. For shorter volumes, you might be able to get away without this, but Henry Spencer's book is 756 pages long and Marc Leepson's 352 pages, and WP:CITE would strongly encourage the page number(s) to be given in these cases.


 * Page numbers for Spencer had been included in the inline citation, but did not appear under references. I've fixed this; all three citations are from page 455.


 * Unfortunately, Leepson is an online book, and is not paginated. In the inline citations I included that the material is from Chapter 5, and if one goes to the online source, mentions of Pickersgill have been highlighted, and I think all of the material is contained in just a few pages.
 * This came up somewhere else recently; the advice is apparently to note the chapter it comes from in the reference. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:40, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

There are still some other issues I haven't tackled yet, but I wanted to get your take on the wording changes first.Sarnold17 (talk) 01:15, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

_________

Here are the remaining issues, and I will make further changes on previous comments with the above comments:


 * "Pickersgill died on October 4, 1857, and is buried in Loudon Park Cemetery in Baltimore. Her daughter Caroline erected a monument for her, and later the United States Daughters of 1812 and the Star Spangled Banner Flag House Association placed a bronze plaque at the foot of her grave" is cited to "Find a Grave". I can't seem to find this information listed there.

'''Here's the deal: Pickersgill's tombstone reads "Sacred to the Memory of my Mother Mary Pickersgill..." clearly implying that her only surviving child erected the monument; and the bronze plaque reads, "Site Restored 1976 by the U.S. Daughters of 1812 and the Star Spangled Banner Flag House Association," implying that these organizations erected the plaque (the site must mean the grave site, because the plaque mentions no other place). I just used the catchall reference of find a grave, understanding that being able to read the tombstone words on the included photograph is a stretch, and reading the plaque from the photo given is impossible. Nevertheless, these appear to be valid references, certainly as valid as any non-peer-reviewed web reference, and literally cast in stone (or in bronze). I just haven't a clue as to how to reference them. They would be "primary source 'documents'" but no where else in the article do I use primary sources, so that should be OK.''' Your thoughts are solicited.
 * Ah, I understand now. I couldn't make out the detail at all on the photographs on the site. Right, my advice would be to treat it as a primary source, and have the reference run something like "Inscriptions on tombstone and plaque at Mary Pickersgill grave, see File:MaryPickersgill.Tombstone.20120612.jpg and File:MaryPickersgill.GravePlaque.20120612.jpg." Hchc2009 (talk) 06:52, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "The couple had no children, and because of this, Pickersgill has no living descendants." the source given, Ancestry.com, doesn't state that they had no children, it simply doesn't list any (which for this period can't be taken, on itself, as evidence of there being none).

How about The couple had no known children. and leave it at that?
 * If we went for "no recorded children", that would be closer to how we're using the source material. Hchc2009 (talk) 06:52, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "The painting, maintained by the Maryland Historical Society, has one small error in that the kegs that are shown bear the name "Claggett." Claggett did not own the brewery until several years after Pickersgill made the Star Spangled Banner flag, and during the time portrayed in the painting, the brew house had just been purchased by George I. Brown and was then called Brown's Brewery." is probably OR, since the mistake isn't mentioned in the source cited, but rather is the result of an editorial comparison between sources. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:45, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

OK, I'll remove the material, and end with "The painting is maintained by the Maryland Historical Society."

Once I get your take on these proposed changes, I will incorporate them into the article.Sarnold17 (talk) 02:48, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

___________

I like your proposed changes, particularly incorporating Rockman more heavily into the text. This is a recent work, and did not show up during my many Google searches while constructing the article. I found what I was looking for concerning Pickersgill's daughter, Caroline:

Current text in article: Pickersgill's one surviving child, Caroline (1800-1884), married John Purdy (1795-1837). The couple had no children, and because of this, Pickersgill has no living descendants. Caroline Purdy became somewhat destitute late in life, and wrote a letter to the daughter of George Armistead, requesting some financial assistance, but also providing some history about her mother and the making of the Star Spangled Banner flag.

Proposed text: '''Pickersgill's one surviving child, Caroline (1800-1884), married John Purdy (1795-1837). The couple apparently had no surviving children, because in a letter written late in her life to the daughter of George Armistead Purdy called herself "widowed and childless." She had become somewhat destitute late in life, and in the same letter requested some financial assistance, but also provided some history about her mother and the making of the Star Spangled Banner flag. '''

Also, removing the material on Clagget's Brewery will leave some space in the legacy section that will cram the images down into the next section. I would therefore like to end the legacy section with the following material from Leepson:

In 1998 I. Michael Heyman, Sectretary of the Smithsonian Institution wrote:"I am often asked which of our more than 140 million objects is our greatest treasure, our most valued possession. Of all the questions asked of me, this is the easiest to answer: our greatest treasure is, of course, the Star-Spangled Banner."

____________

I believe I've now made all of the proposed changes, so they have been incorporated into the main article.Sarnold17 (talk) 18:45, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

____________

I've made the following adjustments:
 * The "See also" section has been cleaned up
 * Unit conversions were made for three items. I don't know how the rest of the (non-US) world handles fabric measure, so I will assume they measure in meters, whereas the US measures in yards
 * Citations have been corrected and modified, but web references are murky at best. Author, title, and name of websites are often mushed into a single entity, and for many websites it is unclear who wrote it, what the title is, and even what the name of the website is.  Also, dates take some searching, if present at all.  Page numbers?--I've never seen them, unless it is an online document.  The only certainties from a website that I find are web address and accessdate.
 * I will take a pass on trying to do a conversion for the cost of the flags in 1813. That will take some research that I'm not prepared to do.Sarnold17 (talk) 00:59, 1 September 2012 (UTC)