Talk:Mary of Hungary (governor of the Netherlands)

Requested move to Mary of Austria, Queen of Hungary

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved.   A rbitrarily 0   ( talk ) 03:00, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Mary of Austria (1505–1558) → — Please, who could argue that she is better known as someone born in 1505 than as a woman who was Queen of Hungary?

On 3 May 2010, I moved the article to Mary of Austria, Queen of Hungary because the years of birth and death are of no use for a person who knows nothing about her. If a reader wants to find the article about a Mary of Austria who served as Queen of Hungary, will the title Mary of Austria (1505–1558) help him/her more than Mary of Austria, Queen of Hungary would? If a reader searches for the article or browses Category:Archduchesses of Austria, the proposed title will be much more helpful as a way of disambiguation. The community has agreed in several similar cases that we should use the maiden name and the marital title instead of the years of birth and death (see, for example, Talk:Margaret of Burgundy, Duchess of Bavaria).

The proposed title is not against any guideline. WP:NCNT says that we should use maiden names for past consorts. The proposed title uses the maiden name but also uses the marital title because disambiguation is neccessary. No guideline forbids that. Years of birth and death should be used only when nothing else can be used. Surtsicna (talk) 20:14, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Support There is no longer an automatic presumption in favour of using consorts' maiden names. We already had a similar move discussion with a "Margaret", this may be the least awkward way of disambiguating queens with very common names like "Mary". PatGallacher (talk) 22:49, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
 * See Talk:Margaret of Burgundy, Duchess of Bavaria for the discussion I referred to. PatGallacher (talk) 22:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Comment I agree but wouldn't Maria of Austria, Queen of Hungary be better. Mary is an English version/translation of the Latin Maria. The name Mary is not used after the Middle Ages to refer to women outside of Britain.--Queen Elizabeth II&#39;s Little Spy (talk) 03:02, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * There is an exception to every "rule" - this Maria is actually called Mary. For example, all English language sources cited in the article refer to her as Mary. This book also calls her Mary, which is significant because some other names are not Anglicized. The list is very long. The sources which mention Maria of Austria almost always refer to her niece, Maria of Austria, Holy Roman Empress. Surtsicna (talk) 15:23, 11 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Abort the request! It just occurred to me: her niece and namesake, Maria of Austria, Holy Roman Empress, was also Queen of Hungary. Therefore, the marital title is no good for disambiguation in this case. What about Mary of Austria, Governer of the Netherlands or Mary of Austria (governer)? Surtsicna (talk) 11:41, 13 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Not necessarily, in this person's case Queen of Hungary was her highest title, in the other case Empress was her highest. Although, maybe this article should have a hatnote to the other.  I continue to support this move request. PatGallacher (talk) 17:55, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The Empress was Queen of Hungary just as much as her aunt was. We could just as well call this woman Mary of Austria - we would still fail at disambiguating them properly. How do you feel about Mary of Austria (governer)? Surtsicna (talk) 18:04, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Well for a start you should spell it "governor". This is one of these situations where you have to do a trade-off between various factors, no solution is devoid of problems.  I still think "Queen of Hungary" is the least problematic, we are disambiguating her from her niece by calling the niece "Maria" and "Holy Roman Empress". PatGallacher (talk) 22:52, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for spelling correction; the word is spelled guverner in my language and the feminine form in English is governess => my misspelling of governor. Anyway, having gone through several books (listed in the Bibliography section), it seems that by far the most common name is actually Mary of Hungary! If only that name wasn't already occupied. Now, if we are going to keep calling her Mary of Austria, and if we don't have to remove every bit of ambiguity, we could just as well call her simply Mary of Austria. Her niece, after all, is almost always called Maria and not Mary. Surtsicna (talk) 10:54, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Support the move to Mary of Austria, Queen of Hungary. As Surtsicna says, dates are unsatisfactory, and should only be used when no other names or titles will suffice. Failing Queen of Hungary, why not Mary Habsburg of Austria?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:32, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Because her namesake niece was just as much member of the House of Habsburg :( My main worry right now is the fact that this woman is best known as Mary of Hungary (which is probably why the French and German Wikis call her Mary of Hungary). All biographies of her are entitled Mary of Hungary. But that name is ambigious as well. Oh. Surtsicna (talk) 18:51, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move to Mary of Hungary (governor)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved to Mary of Hungary (governor of the Netherlands). Of the alternatives suggested, this one seems to be one that satisfies the most concerns raised in the discussion. I would also add that there is truly no need to tell the closing admin to ignore any particular argument. We're good at this, thanks. - GTBacchus(talk) 17:52, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Mary of Austria, Queen of Hungary → Mary of Hungary (governor) — "Mary of Austria, Queen of Hungary" is highly ambigious. Her niece and namesake was just as much Queen of Hungary and Bohemia as she was.

The most common name, without any doubt, is Mary of Hungary. That is the name of all the biographies used here as references and the name used by most of the other presented sources. The books not used as sources but mentioned in the Further reading section also call her Mary of Hungary. Almost every book about her and every book that mentions her calls her Mary of Hungary. britannica is among them. It is by far the most common name even according to Google Books search results: "Mary of Hungary" Netherlands gets 5.670, while "Mary of Austria" Netherlands gets miserable 330.

Since "Mary of Hungary" on its own is quite ambigious (due to the existence of a queen regnant of Hungary named Mary), it makes sense to add a disambiguator that describes her best. She is best known for being one of the most able governors of the Netherlands ever. WP:Common name is the most basic rule about naming articles and it is clearly in favour of the proposed title.

(I would have nothing against Mary of Hungary (governor of the Netherlands), though this one might be more suitable because it is shorter.) Surtsicna (talk) 18:57, 2 June 2011 (UTC) This Mary of Hungary is considerably more notable than the earlier one. She can be Mary of Hungary without disambiguation. If she needs disambiguation, it should be something that appears in the sources, for example Mary of Hungary, regent of the Netherlands. Kauffner (talk) 15:02, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Support. Looks reasonable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:36, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I am not quite sure that she is significantly more notable than the last Angevin monarch of Hungary. Either way, the word "governor" appears in the sources as well. Mary of Hungary, Governor of the Netherlands, Mary of Hungary, regent of the Netherlands, Mary of Hungary (regent of the Netherlands), Mary of Hungary (regent) and Mary of Hungary (governor of the Netherlands) are all alternatives I would support. Surtsicna (talk) 13:10, 5 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Mary, What? of Hungary. The title avoids an ugly disambiguator. --Bermicourt (talk) 11:39, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Mary, Queen of Hungary is not only ambigious but also taken, so the ugly disambiguator suggestion is still better. Surtsicna (talk) 13:10, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * If Bermicourt doesn't have anything more to add, the argument should be ignored. Surtsicna (talk) 14:52, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't take on role of judge - that's for the neutral administrator to decide. The fact that Mary, Queen of Hungary is taken isn't a ground to remove the title; in fact, it's inconsistent not to use it. What we need is a better disambiguator e.g. a second title for both of them. --Bermicourt (talk) 18:28, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I shouldn't wait nine days for you to respond. Anyway, if you know a title that disambiguates this Mary from both her niece the Empress and the Angevin monarch, please say what that title is. I don't believe such title exists. There's nothing inconsistent about the lack of the word queen in the title; it's inconsistent to put the title into the article about the Angevin monarch because the articles about the other monarchs in Category:Hungarian monarchs are named X of Y. Besides, the sources call her Mary of Hungary. Not Mary, Queen of Hungary, just Mary of Hungary - because she is notable as governor of the Netherlands, not as a Hungarian queen. Please provide a constructive argument and suggest an acceptable alternative if you have one. Surtsicna (talk) 19:19, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Support per arguments given, but decidedly prefer "governor of the Netherlands" as the disambiguator; just "(governor)" implies we mean governor of Hungary.--Kotniski (talk) 07:56, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
 * She was a governor of Hungary as well, in the name of her other brother. Surtsicna (talk) 13:25, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose it's just confusing.--Queen Elizabeth II&#39;s Little Spy (talk) 03:04, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Could you please explain what is confusing? She was Mary of Hungary. Everyone knows her as such. Only the current title can be confusing because it's ambigious and extremely rarely used. Simply saying that "it's just confusing" is not an acceptable argument. Surtsicna (talk) 11:06, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Improperly identified image in article
I have removed this image from the article. The museum it's housed in has identified the sitter as Anne of Hungary and Bohemia, Mary's sister-in-law, and comparison of this portraits to other portraits of the two women seems corroborative. I've also nominated the image for deletion on Commons, as the image already exists under correct identification there. --NellieBly (talk) 06:35, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

File:Mary (1505–1558), Queen of Hungary.jpg to appear as POTD
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Mary (1505–1558), Queen of Hungary.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on September 15, 2015. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2015-09-15. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Chris Woodrich (talk) 01:36, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

The name "Mary of Hungary"
I think that this article could be renamed to Mary of Austria(governer of the Netherlands) or Mary of Habsburg. Because almost always when there is a name of the country instead of someone's surname, this indicates that this person what native to that country, for example Anne of Denmark, Henrietta Maria of France and so on, while this woman was merely married to a Hungarian king for a short period of time after which she had almost no connection to that nation. Super20020917 (talk) 11:46, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Was native* Super20020917 (talk) 11:47, 24 September 2022 (UTC)