Talk:Maryland/North (Mid-Atlantic State) vs South (Southern State)

Information here has been cut/pasted from the main Talk page via edit 103282613.

To Do: Organise the information presented below, perhaps by archiving all comments and keeping only those comments which are relevant and sourced. From those, form separate sections relating to each type of consideration: geography, history, popular culture, architecture, socioeconomics, religion, politics, etc. After that, then maybe we can make some headway on this touchy issue. Or, alternatively, modify the article to remove problematic statements or to include both descriptions.

--Thisisbossi

Mid Atlantic State?
Maryland is a NORTHERN (Mid- Atlantic) state if the choice must be either north or south.

Arguments regarding the Mason-Dixon Line are virtually irrelevant. The Mason-Dixon Line was created between 1763 and 1767 to settle land disputes between MD and PA. It had nothing to do with north vs. south. At best, it was used "symbolically as a supposed cultural boundary between the Northern United States and the Southern United States" in popular speech-- hence the confusion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mason-Dixon_line Also, Maryland was a rather divided state during the Civil War in terms of slavery. But today, there is little question in the mind of Marylanders. Naturally, being the furthest south northern state, there is going to be cultural influence from the south-- especially in the southern part of the state just as there is northern influence in parts of VA.

As someone born and raised in Maryland, NEVER was there any question in my mind. Other than a small handful of oddball individuals I've met who have some peculiar affinity for the south and even slavery, NO Marylanders in my experience have considered themselves southern. Never in 12 years of school and four years of college was I ever taught that MD was a Southern state. Usually I was told that it's a "Mid Atlantic state" that was torn on slavery during the Civil War. Open any MD phone book and count the number of businesses with "Mid Atlantic" in their names. There are some quirky accents in MD-- especially on the Eastern Shore, but you will almost never encounter a real southern accent.

With that said, I'm amazed that everyone is so extreme in their opinion on this subject. Frankly, such cultural distinctions are not that black and white in border states. Simply standing on one side of an imaginary line makes a person identify with one culture vs. another? At the end of the day, any identification with the south in MD is from a very tiny minority.

Interesting side note-- Drive south from MD to VA on Route 13 through Pocomoke City and note the road sign near the visitor center with reads "The South Starts Here".

P.S. Anyone NOT from Maryland-- please stop assuming you understand its weather. Mild winters? Sometimes-- but we also have winters which rival those of up state New York and get our share of New England style nor'easters! Whoever said "MD gets a little snow but so does Georgia"-- how often do folks in Georgia find themselves trapped at home for several days under 36+ inches of snow or had ice storms which shut half the state down? How often have schools been closed up to a week in Georgia? I've endured it all several times.

PSF 5/7/07 207.59.160.2 22:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

How is it that Maryland is considered a mid Atlantic state when it lies south of the Mason-Dixon Line and D.C., which is land formerly Maryland territory, is considered a "southern" capital city? Even in the Civil War, while remaining a Union State, Maryland sympathised with the Confederacy. Although since World War II, the state's economy and political affiliations more resemble the Northeast it remains a southern state. I am changing the introductory line accordingly. --206.45.166.197 13:44, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


 * First off geographically it is in the middle of the Atlantic coast. Also the idea that the Mason-Dixon line as the separation is not always taken as gospel, M&D line also separated Maryland and Delaware, and considering that Delaware is also a considered a Southern State, that have been some that would put forward that that Potomac would be a better diving line. Also today Maryland is far from having a culture that is close to being in common with the culture that of the most of the South. Either way i put it back in and left southern since it officially designated that by census. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:27, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I am from Maryland and have lived in both Maryland and Virginia. Let me just say this: the idea that Maryland is a Southern state is absolutely disgusting, perhaps one of the most insulting things I have ever heard. I am going to change this section of the article. Boothy is right; the Mason Dixon line today is essentially void, marking only a historical division. The Potomac more clearly and more practically demarcates the separation between South and Northeast. Consider, if you will, that Maryland is: one of the ten wealthiest states in the country; a heavy industrial and technological center; home to the vibrant city of Baltimore, one of the most important in the United States; a state with Northern weather that includes severe winters (I don't care what the climate section says: I lived there for sixteen years, experienced the Blizzard of 1996, and watched heavy snowfall take down half of the B&O Railroad Museum); a state that did not secede the Union like the craven Southern blood traitors in 1861; and, perhaps most importantly, one of the Democratic Party's most faithful strongholds.

In Maryland (where I lived, by the way), there is widespread derision so far as the South is concerned, and we had a tendency to view even neighboring Virginia as backward and alien. My own move to Virginia confirmed this; with the exception of Fairfax and Loudoun counties, the state is a wasteland. Southerners don't even think of us as Southerners. They hate us for being liberal, richer, and better-educated than they are.

That reminds me: Maryland also has one of the best school systems in the nation. In fact, we have the second highest number of students passing AP exams in the country.

Just think about this. Outstanding schools, advanced industry, enormous wealth, widespread affluence, strongly Democratic tendencies, hatred of the South (and of our dear President)--do these sound like the traits of a Southern state?

A quick look at the 2004 electoral map will show you what I'm talking about. There's a reason that Maryland is Blue. I will be changing the cultural section very soon. User: History21


 * Wow, as a proud native Marylander and a graduate of UMD who now lives in GA, i've got to say that your anti-South rant is one of the most blatantly biased, historically ignorant, and irrationally bigoted diatribes i've ever encountered. You are filled with a lot of hate. Maryland is neither northern or southern. It's unique.Jcpaco 12:01, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * While I agree with the most of what you have said, the problem is that "official" regional definition are set by the census, and the census places the state in South Atlantic region, which is part of the Souther region. Also, there are still significant amounts of residents who would consider the state as part of the South and not part of the North. Also, your argument about relation to Southern culture can and has been used in the same way with the North. So I see no real reason to remove the mention other then a POV reason. I will tighten up the definition a bit, though. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Good discussion. One way to look at the North-South divide is to see where the plantations were before the Civil War. A very rough guide would place the Eastern Shore and Southern Maryland (from Annapolis south) as southern, with Baltimore and points north and west as northern. (I grew up in Howard County and always considered myself a northerner, but realized later that things were quite different just a few miles away.) Ken Gallager 16:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The whole industry thing boggles me as a bit 50 years ago, too. Industry has INVADED the South, too. Just go to Atlanta or Birmingham and you'll find much the same as you do in Baltimore. Having grown up in Baltimore (amongst other states) for a big chunk of my life, I find the culture of the people more in line with the South: slightly backward, goofy, and traditional in many ways. The state votes democratic because of the high proportion of African Americans and trhe fact that metropolitan Washington DC has become a haven for northerners and people really from all over the country. Go down to Easton or Cambridge and it's as southern as Savannah or Mobile. And as for Baltimore having "severe" winters? Ha! Whoever said that has obviously never lived in Chicago, Cleveland, Buffalo, Denver, Minneapolis, or any other of the hundreds of U.S. locales that get WAY colder and have WAY more frequent snowstorms than MD does. Climate wise, the eastern 2/3rds of MD has more in common with N. Georgia than it does with N. Dakota. Sorry. Just the facts.

Why is it that the only two people who actually grew up in Maryland (Ken Gallager and myself) actually consider themselves to be Northerners? Who are you to compare us to the South? How dare you? "Just the facts?" The facts are that Marylanders find the South abhorrent, that we resent the political influence that it wields, and that we consider the mindless Neanderthals on our southern border at best a necessary evil. We are nothing, nothing like them.

And Maryland doesn't have severe winters? Maybe not in comparison to Minnesota, but in comparison to the South (which it is supposedly a part of), the state is frigid. At my own home, it was not uncommon for January temperatures to sink to 7 degrees. I'm sure that happens in North Georgia all the time. And the 1996 and 2003 blizzards, they no doubt affected the Carolinas as well. It makes my blood boil to think that people actually lump us into the same category with those...people.

Absolutely disgusting.

And what of the real facts? What of the state's schools, its politics, its wealth, its influence? In my old town, there are still bullet holes in some homes from when the traitorous Confederate filth marched their way over our virgin soil, defiling and disgracing our state with their foul invasion. Maryland was raped. Don't you think we ever forgot that.

And when push came to shove, early Confederate sympathies did not matter; as the Southerners carried out their abomination, Marylanders banded together to barricade Baltimore that they might advance no farther. We are different in every way imaginable. Beyond statistics, our spirits are wholly separate. I was raised in Maryland and only learned after moving that some stubbord (and unknowledgeable) people had the nerve to call us a Southern state. It is just not so. Sorry. Just the facts. Oooooooh! Oh, you've got some kind of nerve! User: History21


 * Folks, Maryland was unquestionably considered a southern (or "border") state at the time of the Civil War. Times have changed, and the state's southern identity seems largely to have been lost (something that can arguably be said for DC and most of Northern Virginia as well). We might want to phrase it thus: "While traditionally considered a Southern or border state, Maryland today is more closely identified with the mid-Atlantic, or even Northeastern United States." ...and then explain why (then: plantations, slavery; now: DC-to-Boston megalopolis).


 * One joke I heard often when I lived in MD: "Northern charm, southern efficiency." ProhibitOnions 13:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Maryland is a Mid-Atlantic state. I have lived my whole life in Maryland and I never heard it called anything else while I was going to school or by anyone born in Maryland. However, The eastern shore of Maryland has more in commom with the south. The suburbs of D.C. and Baltimore have more in commom with the north. Maryland is just a mixed bag. It has both Northern and Southern culture.People just don't like to admit it. I do not consider myself a Northerner or Southerner.I have to say the person who said how great the schools are...well look at P.G. County and Baltimore city schools.They are not great. The eastern shore of Maryland is not a democratic stronghold by any means.

Just a Statement I'd like to say something here about this whole debate. I was born in Maryland, raised in Maryland, raised my children in Maryland, and taught school in Maryland for three decades. So far as I knew, and so far as my fellow Marylanders have been concerned, we were always a Northern state. I did not realize that this was a question until seeing this page. User:Joan53


 * Which is my point in the comment above. But we weren't alive in, say, 1860, when Maryland would have been considered very much a Southern state. (I find the idea strange myself, being a sort-of Tennessean who lived in MD for several years.) Remember also that the site of Washington DC was chosen for its Southern location. ProhibitOnions 13:24, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm offended that anyone would consider Maryland northern OR southern. We've always been in the middle, that's the way I've always seen it. Putting Maryalnd in the Mid Atlatic doesn't necessarily make us northern, in fact I've always seen the Mid Atlantic as a grouping for the states that have areas of northern and southern culture.

As for putting Maryland in the north based on politcal leanings, I think the red-purple-blue counties map is more of an accruate way of seeing where politics lie here than the red state-blue state map. You can clearly see that it is only the majority of the Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area that is blue.

I also find it funny that while another argument for Maryland being northern was our good schools, someone brought up that Baltimore City and PG County schools are failing, and take another look at that election map and see which two "counties" are the bluest (and therefore most "northern").

I think that only proves that Maryland is in the middle, so the article should say that many people put Maryland in a definition of the Mid Atlantic which doesn't necessarily include it in the North. -Jeff (talk) 16:13, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Jeff (and others), While I respect your opinion I must disagree with you. To begin with, the "counties map" is deliberately deceptive; many of the Red counties on the map are no more than empty expanses of land populated by a few people. Republicans hold no serious control in Maryland. The overwhelming majority of Maryland's population is concentrated in the vicinity of either Baltimore or Washington, DC. If the Republican counties had electorates even nearly as large as the urban counties, Maryland wouldn't be so fiercely liberal. I am generally not riled by this sort of thing, but find the map tactic to be underhanded. User:Joan53


 * I laugh that you find cold hard stats deceiving, and that the rural counties of Maryland are desolate and therefore uninmportant. Wikipedia is not a place to espouse your agenda and its often illogical biases. WillC 23:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Why get so heated, WillC? Joan is right, anyways, that map is deceiving, just look at this cartogram where the counties are shown by population size, as opposed to area. Using a generous definition of what is considered outside the BW area (the whole eastern shore, the three southern Maryland counties, and four western Maryland counties), only about 1,170,000 people live outside central Maryland of the state's 5,600,000, or about 1/5th of the population, and it shouldn't be taken for granted that all of these areas are conservative as both maps show that there are no pure red areas. This discussion is getting a little ridiculous and has made it clear that most of Maryland is northern, with outlying regions less so, as could be said for Pennsylvannia, Illinois, or other traditionally northern states, and I say this as someone who grew up in the BW area. In no way is Maryland hotly contested in presidential elections, Kerry won by 13 percent in 2004! User:drewbwhite


 * Northern does not equal liberal as you imply. I sense an anti-rural bias here and it best not creep onto the main page. WillC 01:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

WillC, My "agenda" is the truth, and I would appreciate you're not talking to me in that manner. This map (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/countycart3070large.png) is the truth. I'm not taking sides here, but I feel like the Republican side is getting artificial representation here. I don't like that, not one bit. And I didn't say that the rural counties are worthless; I merely said that most of the people don't live in them, so their votes are not reflective of reality. Thank you. Joan53


 * What truth do you represent? And your statements imply that rural votes are not as important as beltway votes....please....take your agenda elsewhere. WillC 01:15, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm aware that liberalness is not alone enough to qualify the state as a northern one, after all Pennsylvannia is a swing state and several northern states have republican governors, but most of the discussion here seems to indicate that Maryland should be placed in a mid-atlantic category, with outlying, less densely populated areas noted as a cultural exception. There isn't anti-rural bias here and I'm not advocating that the west, south, and east be neglected, it's just that most of the state's population is urban and the page is going to and should reflect that. The other areas are exceptions, not the rule, and for wikipedia to say anything else would just be a lie. I welcome additions that tell more about the culture out west and on the eastern shore, both of which are interesting areas with a more appalacian and southern flavor respectively, but I'm leaving it to someone with more familiarity with the subject, and I do think the recent additions to the cultural identity section are just a quagmire of biased statistics that don't reflect the regional variations in the state. Screaming bias everytime someone posts something you don't agree with isn't going to add to the discussion here, and I did not imply that northern equals liberal, but you can't deny that it's a big factor. Based on your comments and user page if anyone has an agenda here it would be you. User:drewbwhite


 * As a wikipedia veteran, I can assure you I know bias when I see it. And for me to see on the main Maryland page that the South is both poor and uneducated, and then used to justify MD as a northern state, is more than i can take as a good-faith contributor here. Those comments are as unsourced and POV as you can get on wikipedia. Go with the fact that the census bureau regards maryland as Southern, as does the Mason-Dixon Line. Where you think it is based on the placement of your housing development in the Western Shore surburbs has no basis on fact and therefore no place on wikipedia. All you all are doing is throwing poo by trying to place Maryland where you think it should be. (Plural)--> Your comments are not encyclopedic and do not belong here. WillC 01:27, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I support removing many of the facts from the cultural identity section, but it is true that of the ten richest states by personal per capita income none are southern. Except for Maryland and Virginia. Both the census bureau and the Mason-Dixon definitions are dated, and if you consider the Mason-Dixon line a legitimate cultural barrier, you certainly are out of touch. Are you even a Marylander? I lived the first 18 years of my life there and saw most of the state, and what I primarily object to is the tone you take here. No one is being biased, and the facts show that the overwhelming majority of people in Maryland live in the central urban area, about 80 percent in the more immediate suburban counties with Montgomery and Prince George's both having nearly a million each, so why throw insults? I agree that the section was biased, but it shouldn't be thrown out, but restructured, as all of the facts about Maryland were legitimate and did show similarities with the northeast.User:drewbwhite


 * And it has been restructured to a more-NPOV and thus wiki-friendly tone and format. WillC 01:41, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I am becoming rather tired with the constant reversion in the cultural section of any fact that doesn't fit into what you think Maryland should be or what the South should not be. This is not a format for Southern nationalism, and the fact that you find the South's financial position to be insulting does not mean it isn't true. This is not disputed; Maryland and the other top ten states fall outside of the Southern category. As always, these things are open for discussion, but wealth and industry are decidedly Northern characteristics, characteristics that Maryland happens to share. You cannot just delete anything that doesn't sit well with you.

The sheer fact that Maryland is Democratic doesn't make it Northeastern. The financial and educational sections are integral components to the state's classification.

Joan53

I am on the verge of having this article locked because of unjustified reversions of verified material. Stop doing this. Joan53


 * SOURCE YOUR EDITS. WillC 02:17, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I support the addition of the old cultural identity section by Joan, but I think more needs to be said about the Eastern Shore and Western Maryland. These regions have prospered with the rest of the state, though to a lesser degree, and maintain much of their southern flavor. Some of the wording bothers me a bit, and I may go in and change a couple things because right now it sort of makes the south sound like a forsaken backwater in a couple of places.


 * Okay, I just looked back at the article and saw that Will had deleted the whole section again, even reverting back to the poorly formated original version that I've changed twice for spelling and looks (which includes "Republicansim," which I'm pretty sure is not a word unless I'm just out of it). Please just give it a rest. Rather than deleting large swaths of the article, change the wording, delete selectively, and add, because the section pointed out many true and relevant facts, though I do agree it makes it seem as though the writer has a bone to pick with the south. I'm just not going to bother anymore with this.

User:drewbwhite


 * I think there should be a vote. I lived the first 24 years of my life in Balto city, the next 2 in Cockeysville, the next 6 in Durham NC, the next 5 in Sarasota FL, and now I live in Catonsville (Baltimore suburb) and I've asked around in my travels.  I believe MD to be a Mid-Atlantic state (I believe this term to apply to DE, VA, NC and possibly NJ and PA as well).  And I think that both Southerners and Northerners would accept this categorization as being the most apt description for MD.  I could've somewhat agreed with the ranter's attitude about the south when I was young and stupid but think he's all wet now.  Besides, Balto tried to secede from the Union in the civil war (Pratt street riots) and murdered the northern troops from Boston that were lodged in a Balto hotel while passing through to DC.  The federal government had to violently suppress Baltimore's secession.  That tells me that even the area he's referring to in his rant was at least highly sympathetic to the southern cause. Like another poster has posted above, I've always personally felt that MD is a mix and therefore "Mid-Atlantic" and the southern areas in which I've lived and travelled more or else see things that way as well (although Balto's early industrialization is probably the best argument for a "Northern" categorization).
 * What's causing the settlement of this argument to become somewhat muddled is that Maryland was considered a border state during the American Civil War. I would say that one way to settle the dispute as to whether Maryland is or is not a Mid-Atlantic state is to look at the predominate position of Maryland during the American Civil War -- that is, determine whether Maryland seceded with other Confederate states and whether Maryland showed strong ties at that time with the Union.  → Lwalt ♦ talk 15:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Not North, Not South, Mid-Atlantic Only!
I'm so tired of this conversation every 3-4 months. Maryland is NOT Northern or Southern, it is BOTH! If you are from Maryland, you may not see it, but when you travel outside of Maryland, reality hits you. People who visit from the North always think I am so "southern sounding" and vice versa for people who travel from the South. Northerners call us country bamas and Southerners call us yankees...neither wants to claims us. I've lived in Baltimore my entire life and I just consider MD to be a Mid-Atlantic state below the Mason Dixon...we have influences from both places. Northerners and New Englanders would laugh at the little bit of snow we get from time to time (though the blizzards we get every 5-10 years puts some Northerners to shame) and Southerners would laugh at the hot summer days we get (though the East Coast tropical humidity we get puts some Southern states to shame). Again, we are a mix and should forever be known as a Mid-Atlantic State! I wish people stop debating this. By the way, Maryland as a whole has more Southern living than Northern, even Baltimore. Truth hurts, but hey, can't change who we are. To those disgusted that we dare utter our name with YOUR North or YOUR South, get over it. BUT Just call us an East Coast state or a Mid-Atlantic state and it should make everyone happy. Chic3z (talk) 15:06, 1 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Two years later and comments are still appearing in my notifications...let's all re-read my 2 year old comment, it still stands. Maryland was a border state back in the day and still skirts the line between North and South today. Or as they say, we're up South and down North. Deal with it! Bottom line: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2010-03-28/news/bal-md.backstory28mar28_1_southern-region-mason-dixon-line-western-maryland/2 Chic3z (talk) 19:28, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Northernisms
Since when has “Urban” equaled North and “Rural” a synonym for South? That is totally illogical. You can’t argue the point that since Central MD is Urban/Suburban its a Northern State, that’s foolish. If that’s the case rural upstate New York as well as the State of Maine should be called Southern and Urban/Industrialized Atlanta and Miami are Northern. How logical is that? Just because Maryland has a large urbanized city that gets a little snow doesn’t make it a Northern state (Atlanta even gets a little snow). How come it seems wherever “Northerners” move to in massive droves; the area settled becomes know as “northern” for example Southern Florida, if you’d go any further south you’d be in the sea, yet this area is not considered to be “Southern” the same is to be said about Phoenix, AZ; Baltimore, MD; Washington, DC; Suburban Delaware (Wilmington) and Virginia. As if the North is some ever expanding Amoeba that is slowly engulfing the country. The south has be stigmatized so much that is has become taboo to be considered a Southerner. And just because a state is politically one way or the other doesn’t make it Northern or southern. They have democrats in the South and Republicans in the North. The Republicans freed the slaves for goodness sake! Due to the large influx of immigrant workers and presence of minorities of which most of these demo graphics vote Democratic are the reasons why Maryland, Washington, DC and to a lesser extent Virginia are overwhelmingly liberal with the latter being a bit more conservative outside of the major cities. As an African-American who lived in both Maryland and Virginia, I’ve grown to accept the fact that we are “southern” although if asked I state that I’m from the Mid-Atlantic. I hate to get into these North/South debates. I wish the east coast was more like the west coast. I never hear of Seattle & Portland bickering with LA or Southern Cali resenting San Francisco. D-Law The Monster from the Mid-Atlantic

Cultural Identity, POV and Unsourced
Well it seems that history has taken it's attempt to define Maryland as a Northern only state form the discussion page to the article it's self. The user has basically rehashed his point of view as stated above into the article, w/o hardly a source to back up any of his claims, most of which have little to no bearing in the Cultural Identity of the state or on it's regional classification. Besides the fact the the section now is grossly misleading in practically all contexts, historical, cultural, informative, and so on, it is an extremely narrow def in that it really only describes the Balt-Wash metro, and basically discounts, Western Maryland, Southern Maryland, and the Eastern Shore. To but is simply the section is little more then a rant due to the fact that the user cant get with the idea that census classified the state in the South Atlantic division for official statistical purposes, and in all regards should just be removed. But i'll leave it in and hope someone can sort threw the mess, for now. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well since the pov has yet to be delt with, and the section contines to be mostly unsourced, and that the current sources do not back up the claim of the rant, as it is not a section, i am giving the section untill Wed, and if not NPOV by then then i am removing back to the former version on the grounds of that it is POV, and the it violates WP:NOT --Boothy443 | trácht ar 05:22, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * First off, "its", not "it's"; and my god the second comment is virtually incoherant. and blah blah hello i am a spelling grammar naziboy (self-vandalism - N ) - however. As a resident of Maryland, I have always felt that Maryland should be considered a "northern" state. Looking on a map, if one were to draw a line equidistant from the northern tip of Maine and the southern tip of Florida, Maryland would easily be in the north. While Virginia (along with the rest of what is commonly termed "the south") has a reputation for, shall we say, conservative politics, Maryland has been one of the more moderate states in the union (c.f. the Walmart decision, the anti-polygraph legislation, etc). While one finds a slightly more conservative, hick-ass (apologies, but I'm in a rush and can't think of a nice way to put it) attitude prevalant (sic?) along the eastern shoreboard, for the most part, even up in the mountains, Maryland is more a Boston than an Atlanta. I could go into architecture, landscapes, and a whole mess of et cetery to further support my viewpoint - which is, simply put, that it is hardly controversial to consider Maryland a part of the North, and frankly the only way a "southern" definition would stick is if we throw out everything except the Mason Dixon line - and then where exactly would that leave Los Angeles? If one is willing to consider California a "southern state" based on the Mason Dixon line, then that autistic insanity has won my, uh, respect. --Nugneant 09:43, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Will: First you are unable to come to grips with the North being poorer than the South, and now that the North is more densely populated and urban than the South. If you don't see how Maryland being more urban does not tie it closely with the North, there is no hope in even bothering trying to discuss with you. I don't see how that's "Poor logic," it's one of the most fundamental differences between the Northeast and South. Please stop blatantly promoting your Southern agenda here, you can't omit and bend facts to make Maryland look more Southern than it is. Your argument that Maryland is mostly rural is also worthless, as that holds true of almost any state, including larger northern states. Southern culture is practiced in southern Illinois, should we stop considering it a Northern state? Also, the sentence that says that "17 of 24 jurisdictions are completely rural" is false. You say that as an argument to show that Maryland is more Southern, and then when I say that most of the people living in urban areas ties it to the North you call my statement poor logic? So you get to say that Maryland shares large rural areas in common with the South (not even a good point) but I don't get to cite its large, dense urban areas as a tie with the North? You've stated that Maryland has large rural areas, that historically the state was tied with the South, and that the state is below the Mason-Dixon line. This does little to disprove more substantial cultural or economic ponts that group the state with the Midatlantic area.User:Drewbwhite


 * Finally, your elitist materialistic agenda comes out. You view the South as some poverty-stricken backwater that you are scared to acknowledge exists....is that because the other elitists in your Beltway neighborhood might think lesser of you? By the way, let's count the rural Maryland counties: Garrett, Allegany, Washington, Frederick, Carroll, Harford, Cecil, Kent, Queen Anne's, Caroline, Talbot, Dorchester, Somerset, Worcester, Wicomico, St. Mary's, Charles, and Calvert. 18! Agriculture is the number one sector of the economy in every single one FACT. I'll let you subtract one bedroom county just because I'm nice. Furthermore, Illinois is a Midwestern, not a Northeastern state. Has no bearing in this discussion. But let's talk about density. Tokyo and Mexico City have dense populations...by your logic that makes them Northeastern. Florida and Texas...both densely populated....Northern then? There is such a thing as a Southern city. You are using poor logic and I am calling you out on your semantics. WillC 20:21, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea how you read such things into my statement. I acknowledge that the North is richer and now I'm anti-south? Statistics prove it. Is the census biased? I don't object to you calling those counties rural, just "completely" rural. Many of them have strong ties to the urban areas, and rural-ness does little to tie a state with the south. By the way, I wasn't calling Illinois northeastern, but NORTHERN, which it is, with pockets of southern culture. Oh, and Texas isn't densely populated in the slightest, it's ranked 28th. Even its big cities, like Houston for instance, have low population densities due to the availability of land and their later development, after the advent of the car. Houston has about the same population density of suburban Columbia, Maryland (just a bit above 1000 people/km squared). Please, "elitist?" Why do you turn this into a personal attack? I grew up in Maryland but my family is from Georgia, Tennessee, Virginia, Alabama, and Mississippi. Bos-Wash is a bit different from Atlanta or Houston. It's not I who hates the South, but you who loves it, as evidenced by your user page, and perhaps you also dislike the North. I have nothing but admiration for most aspects of Southern culture, but it is not prevalent in Maryland. You basically said that I said: the Northeastern United States is dense and urban, therefore all dense urban areas are Northeastern American. Therefore apparently I said that Mexico City and Tokyo belong in the Northeast United States. What I actually said was that the Northeast United States is dense and urban and that Maryland shares the characteristic, and that most Marylanders live in the BosWash megalopolis. I did not say that high population density is exclusive to the Northeast. I did not say that there are no urban areas in the South. You said that the South is more rural and agricultural "yourself." My logic doesn't make Mexico City northeastern, stop taking the points out of context. This is a discussion of whether an American border state is more Northern or Southern, and the South is less dense and more rural while the North is more so, with most of its population living in urban areas. Is that not true? Is that not fact? Western China is rural, does that make it southern? How about Chiapas, Mexico? There, I just applied your logic to your own point. Nice counterargument.That's a very fundamental logical fallacy you made. I don't see how that is biased vandalism. User:Drewbwhite

NORTH?
Maryland is not a northern state because it is below the Mason-Dixon Line. WillC 12:30, 30 April 2006 (UTC)


 * You know what else is below the Mason Dixon line? Most of California. --Nugneant 09:47, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Not true. The Mason-Dixon line ends at the border of PA and W. VA.  California was not even a part of this country when the line was surveyed in 1767.


 * It is a "mix" state. In colonial times, it BECAME a slave state because 2/3rds on it has more topographical similarity to the southern states (loamy, sandy soil, as opposed to the rocky soils of the Northeast), and Baltimore had more in common climate-wise with Atlanta than it did with Boston.  It has become more industrialized and urban, but so have Charlotte, Atlanta, Birmingham, Nashville, and Memphis.

Drive down to Easton, MD sometime and stop at any gas station. Ask the cashier a question and listen for him to talk. You'll know you're in the SOUTH.


 * Those who have no idea where the line is drawn and ends and those who have no idea about its significance should not be commenting on it in the main article. Furthermore, why is it that the argument that every pro-Northern person here uses to justify MD as a Northern states is "I THINK IT IS SO IT MUST BE?" That ain't gonna fly here. WillC 10:31, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I am neutral on the entire issue (despite having spent a good deal of the former part of my life in Maryland), but I feel a lot of the conflict about Maryland's culture identity as part of North and South comes from its proximity to Washington, D.C. There's a good mix of people from both sides of the MDL, as it's said.  There's probably a better way to phrase the debate, but we won't find it by beating each other up.  Anyhoo, those are my $0.02. :) Danny Lilithborne 10:36, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree wholeheartedly. NoIdeaNick 21:39, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

SOURCING
I kindly urge all to document their edits; if not, you risk having your info removed. For starters, unless you have a formall poll showing that many Marylanders hate being called Southern, it has to go. Blanket statements such as the South has poor schools falls in the same category. New Wiki users should take a moment to read policies on good faith editing, non-point-of-view statements, and removing bias, etc.... WillC 00:17, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that the north/south cultural conflict section of the article needs to be better sourced. On the other hand, it's important to include a discussion of Maryland's cultural identity.  Of course Wikipedia's NPOV policy needs to be followed throughout, but there is truth to the statement that many Marylanders resent being called Southern.  There is also truth to the statement that some people in Maryland consider their state a part of the South.  What the article needs is a neutral, sourced discussion of the views of Marylanders, but it would be a disservice to the article and to Wikipedia as a whole to exclude a discussion of the issue.  When I get the chance (hopefully in the next few days) I will make an attempt to find sources for an NPOV discussion of Maryland's cultural identity. NoIdeaNick 17:36, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * You have no definite proof that any Marylander resents being grouped as Southern. WillC 20:08, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I have lived in Maryland my whole life and I can tell you there are plenty of Marylanders who resent being called Southern. But you don't have to take my word for it.  That's why Wikipedia has verifability and   NPOV policies.  Considering how commonly (in my experience) Marylanders consider themselves non-Southern, I'm sure it has been written about.  When I get a chance, I will hunt down some of these writings and write an NPOV section for the article.  The question of whether Maryland is truly part of the South culturally is beside the point.  All that matters is having an NPOV discussion of those views. NoIdeaNick 20:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I'm a Marylander, who got into vicious arguments with a Bostontonian with the same POV "commonly shared" (Maryland = the south because Mason Dixon hurr hurr). Basically I believe that defining it as the Mason Dixon line is ridiculously arbitrary and (in the friend's case) only an excuse to belittle others. You know what else is south of the Mason Dixon? Most of California. Is California going to be a "southern" state? Here I always thought "south" would be a relative term, you know, like if you took a point on northern Maine, a point on central Florida, and drew a line equidistant to both - but I guess I'm a product of superior education, and have a lot to learn from isolated hicks. Hey, since we're all south of Santa Claus, we're all Southern States. --Nugneant 10:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * And I know just as many people from Maryland who think of themselves as Southern, enjoy the Southern lifestyle, and KNOW THEY LIVE BELOW THE MASON DIXON LINE. So what is your point? WillC 20:39, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I know a boy named Sue. It therefore follows that Sue is a boy's name. I know someone who likes being hit. Therefore all people like being hit. --Nugneant 10:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * My point is that any discussion of Maryland's cultural identity ought to mention both those who think of themselves as southern and those who don't. The Mason-Dixon line is the traditional dividing line between the North and the South, but there are those who would question whether the Mason-Dixon line is any longer a legitimate cultural border.  I'm not saying it is and I'm not saying it isn't.  I'm just saying that it's a point of debate in Maryland, and that debate ought to be included in the article. NoIdeaNick 21:21, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. But it needs to be even and as of now it is not. Say there is an argument and leave it at that. WillC 21:22, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, there's no surveys that state that a majority of respondants consider Assateague Island "the most noted feature of Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia", so I think that has to go as well. Not to mention that I have a friend from Russia who considers a Maryland summer unbearably hot and muggy, and Maryland winters pretty damn tropical. So can we see a poll that declares what "moderately cold" and "warm" mean? Also, finally, I have a business acquaintance on the Moon who believes that "significant" means, in fact, "of least importance" - and he enjoys this, and LIVES BELOW THE MASON DIXON LINE. So how about a poll confirming this? Thanks - --Nugneant 10:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I think we're actually in agreement about this. The cultural section of the article is clearly not NPOV and might even be considered original research as it now stands. I was just announcing my intention to seriously clean up the section with sourced information when I get a chance. NoIdeaNick 21:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Please do. WillC 21:43, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I would just like to note that the entire Northern side of the argument is well-sourced, while the Southern side doesn't have a single citation to back it up.

History21


 * But your "facts" are irrelevant. I will add 2 + 2 = 4 to the article and will condemn anyone who deletes it. It's a FACT! WillC 12:07, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

The Northern side of the argument is well sourced ? Honestly, that is just your bias. I was taught in Maryland Public Schools that Maryland was a Mid-Atlantic state with Southern heritage. Look up Maryland in an encyclopedia and you will see words like Mid-Atlantic, Middle Atlantic and South Eastern. A lot of the debate here seems political. Some Marylanders may consider themselves Northern and some may consider themselves Southern but isn't that just personal opinion of how they see themselves or relate to. Mike 17:16, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


 * EXACTLY! WillC 17:38, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Here are a few interesting things. First of all, a NASA website that lists Baltimore as Northeastern:http://eosweb.larc.nasa.gov/HPDOCS/misr/misr_html/philadelphia.html.

And a number of maps and things: http://www.gradschools.com/giffile/usmap4.gif

http://www.odfl.com/locator/USNorthEast.jsp

http://www.woolworks.org/stores/us_ne.html

http://genealogypro.com/directories/USA-NE.html

http://home.att.net/~Lamont.Downs/rr/ne.html

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Record_snowfall_in_Northeastern_United_States (this is from Wikipedia itself)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10958587&dopt=Abstract

http://gbgm-umc.org/usa/northeastern.html

http://www.nffs.org/html/northe.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Real_Freshmen_Handbook (this, a description of a book from 1996, also on Wikipedia)


 * As usual, your citations aren't relevant. The official one is The Census. Maybe I'll make a map showing Alaska as a tropical state since it is stuck next to Hawaii in the corner of some maps. Regardless, I could find several other handpicked sites that put MD in the Southeast. If you understood how to play this game you would have given examples of both sides and we could have weighed in on their credibility here. You say I have an agenda? You just incriminated yourself....again. One more time....everyone else here is adding info that shows it is a border state with characteristics of both North and South. You want to make it Northern only and you have no leg to stand on. Admit to yourself that MD is peculiar and be done with this. WillC 19:45, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Silly redneck! Try as you might to cling to the idea that the South still has at least one state that could be considered even slightly modern, prosperous, or progressive, your efforts are for naught. Maryland will never be a Southern state, no matter how many sources you delete (doing away with information you don't like in very Southern fashion, I might add!) or how loudly you complain. And in case you haven't noticed yet, most of the people here disagree with you, but are too blown away by the sheer foolishness of your arguments that they become so frustrated as to be unable to continue. Once again, you do your region justice--just don't try to say that it's our region. We wouldn't want any greasy, sweaty Southern hands touching our state, now would we? You just stay south of the Potomac where you belong ("you" being a collective, not referring to any one person). Maryland will keep treading its Northeastern track while unknowledgeable (or delusional) fools like you (this time singular) babble on about how it is theoretically Southern. Oh, wow. And I thought that Wikipedia was supposed to reflect reality! Have a nice day, Mr. WillC. Catch some opposums for me!

History21 20:07, 7 May 2006 (UTC)History21


 * Your last post violates Wikipedia policy on namecalling and civility. Furthermore, I'm not the only one to revert your misleading sources...for the last several days people have been weighing in and siding with my NPOV statements on thr main article...ironically, people you tried to recruit to edit against me! Lastly, if there is anyone complaining -- and loudly -- it is you. For the last time, READ THE POLICIES OF WIKIPEDIA. WillC 20:33, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, History21... Silly Yankee! As is usual with your sort of people, your arrogance precedes you! I thought that I was the only one to be slighted by your genius when I realized that you had added onto my article The Real Freshmen Handbook (assuming no doubt that a dumb Georgian couldn't possibly complete the piece on his own), and yet it turns out that you have afflicted numerous users with your pseudo-intellectual twittering! As is the case with so many Northerners, you have managed to take a decent argument and contaminate it with such pure snobbishness and bigotry (surely you've realized by now that you Northerners can be bigoted?) that all others discard your logic with disgust.

Bang-up job!

I was born and raised in Georgia, lived there until my seventeenth birthday, spent a mercifully short three months in the blessed Northern paradise known as Maryland, and have resided since in California. So long as Maryland being a Northern state, you couldn't be more correct; I realized from your condescending, self-righteous idiocy that only a diehard Yankee could have been ranting against the supposed evils of Dixie. I checked out some of your posts on people's talk pages. So Robert E. Lee is "traitor-filth," huh?

That is the same kind of mindless discrimination and visceral, groundless dislike that I found myself subject to every day while living in what I have come to regard as this Union's most accursed state. For claiming to be a land of tolerance and acceptance, you all sure know how to make a person feel utterly miserable for their cultural roots. Marylanders would jabber on and on about how much they loved President Clinton--but let me show a Southern flag and they were ready to burn me at the stake. Such an enlightened people!

You dare to say that Maryland was "raped?" What kind of fantasy world do you live in? You want to talk about rape? Talk about Georgia. Talk about Richmond. Talk about the hundreds of miles of devastated farmland, the shattered generations, the heart of an entire nation that was utterly and completely eviscerated.

You horrible people, subjugators who pretended to be subjugated, will never know what the Civil War was really about, nor can you know what the South is really about. You want to claim that what makes you different is your money, your malls, your cities, your schools? That's fine. In fact, I'll support it. I've been to both placed, and Maryland outpaced Georgia in absolutely everything. I'm not ashamed of it. We haven't all been blessed to grow up in Grand Pa Washington's backyard. But that's still not what separates us.

What separates us is a wall, a wall of love on one side and iron on the other. The Potomac is as much a spiritual (to borrow your word) boundary as a political one. We are distinguished by our faith in God, our hospitality, our independence, our chivalry, our nobility, and our respect. You are distinguished by your lack thereof.

So yes, Maryland is a Northern state. In fact, Maryland is as Northern as it is possible to be. You reject the South? Ha, that makes me laugh. We reject you. We don't want or need your vicious cruelty, your mocking, your mean spirits. Keep all of that to yourselves.

For those of you here trying to claim Maryland as a Southern or even a border state, that battle was ended long ago. Maryland had the chance to show her allegiance. She chose her side, and there she remains. The intentions of people like WillC and many others are good, but the answer lies in the very contrast between History21 and the others. It is about decency, courtesy, and respect. That sounds great but in fact it was the occupation of Baltimore and enactment of martial law by Federal troops that ensured that Maryland wouldn't succede. It's cute that y'all think the state had a choice though. Harper32 22:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)Harper32

I think this all has gone too far. I have been reading wikipedia for years and I decided to sign up. I was doing some research for this article because I am a Marylander and I thought I could add to it. Now with all this nonsense I have lost interest. Mike 22:31, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Region
I did a quick Google search for Mid Atlantic States and 19 of the first 20 hits included Maryland in the region. While I know that doesn't prove anything, it does suggest that in popular usage if someone says "Mid-Atlantic" they mean to include Maryland. In contrast searches on Sourthern States and Northeastern States hits that were referring to a region included Maryland 6 out of 20 and 8 out of 20 times respectively. I'd also like to point out the U.S. Regions WikiProject recommendation to not abuse the Census Bureau regions, specifically "census regions should never be used to exclude a state from or lock it permanently into a region." I think the current intro places undue importance on the census bureau definition.

As for the Cultural Identity section I think it could be deleted entirely, as it is it's POV and clashes with the rest of the article. It's already written about in a much more NPOV fashion in History of Maryland. Most of the articles I've found talking about it are talking about the civil war era, so that seems a better place for it anyway. Kmusser 15:08, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The issue is more about how Marylanders view themselves today, rather than the history of the Civil War. I think you're right when you say that the History of Maryland article covers that quite well.  You may be right about scrapping the cultural identity section.  The article may be much better served by having a sentence or two noting the cultural tug-of-war that Maryland has always found itself a part of as a state on the border between North and South. NoIdeaNick


 * In fact, the article on the Southern United States does a pretty good job of this. To quote from that article: "Southern influence waned considerably in Delaware and the urbanized portions of Maryland, but remains present in parts of rural Maryland, especially the state's Eastern Shore."  NoIdeaNick 18:38, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * My entire thesis has been that Maryland is both Southern and Northern. That is what User:History21 does not get.....STILL. He wants to make it Northern only. There is your biased contributor. So either keep it NPOV using facts as both or toss it altogether. WillC 20:34, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, I've checked 3 dictionaries (2 paper ones and www.dictionary.com) and they all place Maryland as Mid-Atlantic. Note that Mid-Atlantic does not necessary mean "North" (despite what the Census Bureau may say).  I'm going to change the intro accordingly unless someone gives me a good reason not to.  Kmusser 14:02, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I also hope that everyone reads Harper32's little tirade against me, as it has received virtually no response. When I finally lashed out (after much provocation), WillC informed me that my comments were inappropriate and an administrator told me I had violated Wikipedia policy and advised that I not refer to WillC as a "silly redneck." Apparently no one is bothered by references to "silly Yankees" and the "foulest state in the Union" or whatever it was. So where are the WikiPolice when it's a Northerner being assailed?

History21 23:36, 9 May 2006 (UTC)History21

South or North
I received the following message when I logged on, "There is an unholy mess in the Maryland article regarding a section entitled "cultural identity." Most of the editors agree that the state is a Northern one, and many facts have been posted and adequately cited to prove that fact. A Confederate sympathizer, however, is constantly going onto the article, removing cited information, and replacing it with unsourced "statistics" that steer Maryland into the Southern category. Please read the whole debate, weigh in, and please, PLEASE, help. History21"

I think Maryland could easily be described as a technically-Southern state that never seceded from the Union. That's the response I typically give, and it seems people tend to accept it.

I haven't read the article, or the debate, but I hope my two cents are useful to you.

Allixpeeke 21:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I concur. Maryland is south of the Mason-Dixon line and would have voted to secede if not for the kidnapping of its legislators by the Union Army.


 * Even though, during the Civil War, Maryland found itself to be a southern state, most Marylanders don't see it that way anymore. However, the southern part of Maryland, especially on the border of Virginia, tend to consider themselves southern.


 * My father is from Tennessee, while my mother is from South Carolina, definite southern states. Having family there, I have concluded that Maryland is nothing like the south, and tends to be much more liberal and -- How do I put it nicely? -- mean. Marylanders tend to be very self-centered and boring, unlike southerners who I have found tend to be more giving and kind nowadays.


 * If it was up to me, I would put Maryland in the Northeast, but putting it as a "border state" is also, in my opinion, correct. Maryland seems to be split into Southern Maryland and Northern Maryland, two completely different areas.


 * Remember, whether it is 'south' or 'north' has NOTHING to do with the Civil War. It has to do with geography and personal identification. Most Marylanders identify as North. ~  Porphyric Hemophiliac   §  15:16, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Baltimore writer and historian Eleanor Weller, writing a southbound travelogue of American gardens, said it best when observing that "Baltimore was the last Northern City, but Maryland the first Southern State." Whether or not it had seccessionist tendencies, what she's talking about is northern industry and the attendant non-agrarian wealth. I suspect that a majority of current residents would consider themselves Northern or Mid-Atlantic. But historically, the state would have been classified as Southern.

Yes, you do see Maryland alot, but you also see virginia, even south to South Carolina. Does that make those states northern. No. Mid-atlantic doesn't mean northern. It's COuLTURLY in-between. But geographicly, it's South. Some times, i's even see Kentucky. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.166.216 (talk) 03:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Who ever said marylanders are rude is biased. I'm from maryland. Does that make me an egotistical bastard? no. we concider our selves south were im form(PG COUNTY)

I now currently live in Mississippi, and I used to live in Maryland. I was born in GA. I moved to Maryland when I was 4. Then I left when I was 17. Let me tell you, I've been all over the state. Baltimore is northern, yes but if you go out to more rural towns like Frederick or Salisbury it is southern. More than half my nieghbors were southern. I from were I lived, Religion was very active in the community. I went to Ohio State and I was told by everyone that I have a southern accent. People said I was very nice and always welcoming. That is southern hospitality folks, and I was too young to learn it in Georgia. Yes i got it in Maryland. Now unfortunately Maryland is highly liberal, that is a down side. To finish it up, Maryland is southern. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Southmdboy (talk • contribs) 20:54, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Verifiability
I have watched this discussion for a few days now. I agree with Kmusser that Maryland is "Mid-atlantic" - that's neither exclusively "northern" or "southern". "mid" connotes some of both. In context of Wikipedia, we need to comply with WP:V and WP:CITE. Finally, I'll point to a paper by Wilbur Zelinsky, a cultural geographer,. There's a map on page 14 that shows regions. He has Maryland as partially "Middle Atlantic" and partially "No regional affiliation". So, if anything, the article should describe Maryland as "a mid-atlantic state, with some northern and southern cultural influences." But, I would also support deleting the section entirely; as it's written now, it's poorly cited with weak arguments. -Aude ( talk | contribs ) 00:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The portion of the culture section that discusses "Maryland's weather and geography" is uncited. "Moderately Southern climate" - moderately is a subjective term.
 * I also see that some consider the fact that "Maryland is a blue state, politically, that makes it a northern state". Please keep in mind that the state is not homogenous.  In 2004, the DC and close-in Baltimore areas (Prince George's, Montgomery, Charles, Howard, and Baltimore (city and county)) voted in majority for Kerry, but in all the other counties, the majority voted for Bush.  This is in part due to the "rural vs. urban" debate, as well as "northern vs. southern".  Given that Maryland is not homogenous, I don't think that blanket statements about Maryland's politics are appropriate.
 * And the last portion "People who consider Maryland to be a Southern state ..." is completely uncited. "traditional Southern culture and occupations are commonly observed..."? Do you actually have figures on employment in particular sections of the state?  I was just poking around the Maryland labor statistics website  and don't find anything that really substantiates "southern occupations".
 * And the reason stated for Baltimore as a southern city (commonly booked city for World Championship Wrestling and hosted multiple pay-per-views for the Georgia based promotion.) is inadequate.


 * I agree. I think a single sentence, such as the one you suggest, would do just fine in terms of the needs of the article. NoIdeaNick 06:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The very first paragraph says just that, which is the point we have been trying to prove all along. WillC 10:52, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I support the deletion of the Cultural Identity section entirely. The article could use a section on Maryland culture, but what's there now isn't even talking about culture.  Kmusser 14:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree, scrap the current form, an write a section that has to do with the culture of Maryland and it's people rather then the current attempt to pigon holw it into either a northen or souther state, their is a lot that is beeing glossed over in the current format, that does no service for the state or a service in describing the cuture of it's residents. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 03:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The section is gone now. As is, what the introduction says about Maryland's (northern/southern) identity suffices. -Aude ( talk | contribs ) 03:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah i dont have a problem with that, as it is correct. For statistical purposes census lists the state in the South Atlantic divinon which is part of the souther region, will put source on the intro, while it is also considered Mid-Atlantic, i.e. it is in the Mid Atlantic Milk Marketing Assn. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC) \
 * Well nevermmind then some one replcaed what i had put their in the first place with a generic def, the source for the geo def for censn is here. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:37, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

It's South Alright...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BaltimoreSnowstorm.jpg A Southern state if ever I saw one.


 * So by your logic, it is impossible to snow in the South. Would you be willing to wager on that? WillC 10:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. It's never EVER snowed in Atlanta, Nashville, Memphis, Charlotte, or Chattanooga. It's only my inagination that Nashville and Knoxville are, according to the USDA, and zone COLDER than Baltimore. The cabbage palm my mother has been growing in her backyard for 6 years can't really GROW in Baltimore, it's only her imagination! So THERE!! (tongue firmly in cheek)

User:Strongbad1982]

Well, it can snow in the south, but a southern city with Baltimore's elevation and proximity to the coast can NEVER get so many snowstorms with over 20 inches, and this was 28 inches! Only places like Salisbury are southern. Baltimore, metro DC, and the rest of Maryland are more northern. Faz90 21:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Southern Maryland - below Waldorf in Charles and St Mary's counties is pretty southern. I have lived in Virginia, North and South Carolina, and Alabama/Florida border and Southern Maryland is not much different. Around DC and Baltimore it's definitely very Northern. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.226.244.112 (talk) 01:09, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

True Moral Values
This is where most of the soldiers who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan have come from:

[]

That's right, you cowards. They're all Blue, and all Northeastern.
 * That map is pretty much a population density map. Are LA, Houston, and Chicago also northeatern then?-Jeff (talk) 02:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Maryland is diffenitly southern.

My opinion
MY Opinion: I clearly belive that Maryland/Virginia are southern states! Many People object to the idea of Virginia and Maryland being southern. Im from Maryland so I know. I hate it when people that don't know me come in my face with all that "yankee" crap...i aint no yankee...im myself! And I absolutly HATE when people say that VA an MD are rude, inconciterate, uneducated, boring, bad drivers. Im fun, nice, and filled with GREAT hospitality.

Next Subject: Civil war/M&D line. If everyone knows that MD and VA are BELOW the Mason Dixon Line... why do some people feel the need to say that MD and VA are Northern???? It's quite -how can i say- IDIOTIC! Yes, folks, I know that the MDL was not made to divide the north and the south, but It's pretty usefull to divide the two. Doncha think???...About the civil war...VA was apart of the confeds...i can't lie, BUT MD was FORSED to become apart of the union and most of the people wanted to be with the feds.(yuddah im sayin)...So anyways, like i was sayin, VA & MD are natrually South.

Subject 3: MD. Everyone knows that MD is not like the rest of the southern states-no accent(mostly), not many confed. flags, has northern-like cities, bad traffic etc.- but it is still SOUTHERN. I mean dang, like many other southern states, we take pride in are lil southerness, we sometimes act a lil country, and we still TALK diffrent from the north...esspecially Dc/B-more area. CUT US SOME SLACK!

Final Subject: Overall. Over all, Maryland and Virginia are southern! They have many southern charms too. Infact, we have great hospitaliy too! Don't worry, be happy. Even if your mad, you HAVE TO admit that maryland and virginia are atleast a TAD BIT southern. YEs, YEs, YEs, we do have many qualities like the north(aka bad traffic...lol), But you must admit(if youve been too maryland and virginia...NOT B-MORE or DC)that it is southern in some areas!

ps. dont post nasty negitive comments about Virginia or Maryland..okedoke allipokey...lolz

ps no 2. IF you ask a man at a gas station in Southern, MD.... you'll know that chu in the south. - Footballchik — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.104.98.52 (talk) 02:15, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, maybe you're just a Marylander who considers him/herself southern. Do bear in mind that there are Marylanders who may consider themselves Northerners. Because there are many differences between Maryland and the average Southern state. While it's true Maryland was forced to stay in the Union, you also have to take into account that out of the Southern states, Maryland, along with Delaware, was one of the most un-Southern. Many abolitionists resided in Maryland, but so did many pro-slavery advocates. Also, Maryland is very Democratic, where virtually the entire rest of the South *cough*Texas, Alabama*cough* have gone solidly Republican. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.170.110 (talk) 19:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

South and North
Living "south of the line" for all my life, i take pride in my dixie self. I AM SOUTHERN LADY FROM MARYLAND, like it or not, i AM southern. I talk with an accent and im used to braidin' my daughters hair on the porch! I love cookin' fried chicken, maccaroni, and creole favorites! I love showing great hospitality and a great accent. and i Am from the MD. Just because Maryland is very advanced in areas such as baltimore and DC, doesn't make us northern. Im about as southern as a broke back lady from mississippi! haahaha. i also have GREAT humor! My point is, we're south of the line. GET USED TO IT. ---Southern Sexy Lady--- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.166.216 (talk) 05:51, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Maryland is just about as southern as Georgia. Like them, we have same style buildings, great black colleges, good hospitality, humid summer weather, great bar-b-q's, and an AWSOME ACCENT(well atleast where im from)Yall folk always sayin we northern, like its our hobbie. I ISNT northern. Im a southern person and i have always been one. And plus, Baltimo' is just like Atlanta, just like a nother city--right? But does that make Maryland and Georgia "yankee" states...umm no. Trust me, we are south. Come down he'r and us marylanders will SHOW it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.215.166.216 (talk) 06:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC).


 * i go with Southern Sexy Lady. I've been livin in maryland all my life and i am convinced that it is southern with a northern charm(like John F Kennedy once said) My South Carolinan boyfriend thinks so too. I classify myself as Southern, with a nothern charm. If you go a little west, east, or south(not north) of DC, you can tell you are in the south alright. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.166.216 (talk) 03:24, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

She is soo right. I've visited my cussins in Ocean City, Md and it's defenatly southern. I'm from Mobile. I know what's the diffrence between the north and south.if you go past maryland(if you go north of maryland) you aren't likely to see a waffle house.

I agree that Maryland is the South because the 100% of the state is southeast of Lebanon, Kansas, and its more like the Carolinas than it is like Maine.

Maryland is definitely a SOUTHERN state. Not Mid-Atlantic, not tidewater, not Northern. She is Southern. She is below the Mason-Dixon line. Some will say that is just a border between three states but it has been known for some time as the boundary of the North and the South.

Also, listen to or look at the lyrics of the state song, "Maryland, My Maryland." Notably the line "She spurns the Northern scum". Doesn't sound like a Northern state to me. The song also refers to Lincoln as the tyrant and the despot.

Maryland, at least where I live has a strong resemblance to the Deep South. I live in the far reaches of Western Maryland in Allegany County. I recall from a trip that "home" looks a heck of a lot like Georgia. We also speak with a Southern accent here. We serve sweet tea here, we drink coke, and you won't find a Waffle House north of Dixie.

I would take a bet that there's a majority of the "Northern/Mid-Atlantic supporters" who have never lived in Maryland let alone traveled through it. Those who have traveled through it pass through the DC/Baltimore area and never see the surrounding area.--USMarineCorps1989 18:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Ideas for Debate
I think it is time to start to narrow down this debate to the specific issue and start presenting scholarly, peer reviewed work to back up our claims. I think the specific issue is whether the main article should say 1. Maryland (IPA: [ˈmæ.ɹɪ.lənd]) is a Mid-Atlantic state located on the East Coast of the United States 2.Maryland (IPA: [ˈmæ.ɹɪ.lənd]) is a Southern state located on the East Coast of the United States. 3.Maryland (IPA: [ˈmæ.ɹɪ.lənd]) is a Mid-Atlantic / Southern state located on the East Coast of the United States. I will refer to these proposals as #1, #2, and #3. What everyone should do is to find published evidence to support their opinion and post that evidence for discussion on this page. I think we have gone as far as we can go with ancedotal and personal opinions about what should be listed in the article.Lasersnake 17:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

4. Maryland is a Mid-Atlantic state located on the East Coast of the United States that is at times classified as a Southern state 5. Maryland is a Southern state located on the East Coast of the United States that is at times classified as a Mid-Atlantic state. / The encyclopedic goal should be to classify all 50 states within a single region (no "slashes") representing the most common view, while presenting significant minority opinions. That's option 4. See Reed study below. DLinth 19:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Options 4 & 5 (I favor 4) should certainly be included in order to best characterize the state.....

Southern Focus Study on Maryland
Here is an article summarizing a 1999 study done by Dr. Shelton Reed about Southern self-identity. http://www.unc.edu/news/archives/jun99/reed16.htm The studys indicates that 40% of Marylanders say they live in the "South." Interesting Dr. Reed interprets this as meaning that Maryland is no longer a Southern State (if it ever was, he says.) Personally I see that 40% as evidence that proposal #3 listed above should be accepted. As we have said many times before, MD is a diverse state with some regions and people that lean south and others that lean north. Lasersnake 12:51, 16 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I see it differently, that option 4 above is the most accurate classification and provides the most information and the most accurate classification to the reader.


 * Reed's "study" was no single study, but the most encompassing review that I've seen, including "Fourteen polls, surveying a total of more than 17,000 people between 1992 and 1999." It provided "strong support for including....Texas, Kentucky and Oklahoma in the South. On the other hand, West Virginia, Maryland, Missouri, Delaware and the District of Columbia don’t belong anymore, if they ever did.


 * "Only 7 percent of D.C. residents responding say that they live in the South. Only 14 percent of Delaware residents think they live in the region, followed by Missourians with 23 percent, Marylanders with 40 percent and West Virginians with 45 percent.  We found 84 percent of Texans, 82 percent of Virginians, 79 percent of Kentuckians and 69 percent of Oklahomans say they live in the South," says Dr. John Shelton Reed, director of the institute. "Our findings correspond to the traditional 13-state South as defined by the Gallup organization and others, but is different from the Census Bureau’s South, which doesn’t make sense."


 * Notice the somewhat fortuitous "break point" between the non-Southern state with the most minority support (45%) for southern status and the Southern state with the lowest majority support (69%) for southern status. (I know, FL is something of a category unto itself, with magnitudes higher percentages of immigrants from outside the South.)  That 24% break point works for me.  It would point to the traditional 13 state South, with Maryland primarily classified as done by most geographers (I'm one) as a Mid-Atlantic State (Option 4 above.) DLinth 19:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Lasersnake 12:47, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The idea of being able to place each state in one region and one region only is quite noble, but probably not the most accurate way to describe reality. Physical geography largely does work that way. Either you live on the coastal plain, or you don't.  You are either on Lake Michigan or your aren't.  Cultural geographic boundaries are not so clear cut. Culture is a sum of the parts of many areas, language, history, demographics, settlement patters, cuisine, and mostly self-identity. These various artifacts normally don't have sharp boundaries, instead they tranistion from one norm to another. Also, these various cultural boundaries don't share the same tranistion areas either.  For instance you can get good Southern fried chicken in an area that has a Midland dialect, etc.   My understanding of the Maryland Mid-Atlantic/Southern debate is that it is about cultural, not physical regions. Maryland is a transition area between Northern culture and Southern culture, and the Dr. Reed's Southern Focus study data seems to indicate this.  40% of Marylanders saying they live in the South is a sizeable minority.  Is it enough to say Maryland is Southern?  I don't think so, but it is enough to justify at least partial inclusion in both areas.  What I would really like to find is a similar study that discusses Mid-Atlantic self-identity.  Do you know of any?

Who in their right mind argues that Maryland isn't a Mid-Atlantic state? Whether you believe it's northern or southern isn't even relevant to its more modern regional categorization. It's as silly as saying Connecticut is a northern state not a part of New England. They're NOT mutually exclusive categories. If Maryland is not a Mid-Atlantic state, than during my entire upbringing in Maryland every teacher I've ever had was wrong and all the hundreds or thousands of businesses I've encountered with "Mid Atlantic" in their names were deluded into believing they lived in the wrong region. It may not be intentional vandalism to write something wrong just because you believe it to be so in here, but it's certainly reckless negligence to write something THAT wrong when a simple Goggle search will reveal the plain truth. PSF 207.59.160.2 16:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Verifiable references
Is anything without references "useless banter" now? I thought this was a "talk" page? You would think contributions from lifelong residents of Maryland regarding the regional status of Maryland would be welcomed. You think a long list of links to contradicting references might make for a more interesting web page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.59.160.2 (talk • contribs) 19:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * We do not know that you are a lifelong resident. You may wish to review WP:OR for further elaboration on that topic.  Secondly, this north/south/mid-atlantic/etc. debate has been an ongoing problem with this article and frankly I'm sick of it.  Everyone lends their two cents, but no one provides any sort of support for their claims so the article doesn't seem to be getting any richer.  Yes, talk pages do not generally need references: they're for discussion and are the sort of forum where you can sometimes get some sway by saying you are a Maryland resident; but everybody is saying they are a Maryland resident and yet there is still a deadlock on this issue.  Please consider reviewing WP:EL and WP:ATT for further information on verifiable resources.  Also, please remember to sign your posts and use the subpage for further discussion on the topic of Maryland's regional identity. Thank you. -- Bossi  ( talk ;; contribs ) 20:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, we're deadlocked on the issue, but I don't think stifling legitimate contributions is the answer nor is insisting on only referenced material. If it were that easy-- wouldn't the matter have been resolved by now? If the answer were contained in some historical document, I think by NOW someone would have found it. Discovering a population's identity pretty much demands commentary from its people. I think that's much more where the answer lies. What better way to discover who people are but to ask them?
 * As for not believing me about lifelong residency-- well I guess that's just the chance we all take here. Once again I ask-- are you insinuating any discussion without reference is worthless? Why on Earth would I bother arguing so adamantly about it if I weren't from Maryland? My vested interest is that I don't believe I'm a southerner and don't wish to be thought of as one. Although, unlike a lot of the highly polarized folks in here, I'll proudly wear the title "Mid Atlantican".

PSF207.59.160.2 21:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I understand your viewpoint in that a people's identity is determined by the people, but Wikipedia is not setup to accept such testimony as the primary source. Wikipedia is formed by collecting information from the work of others; not by doing the work ourselves.  It's something I have some issues with, myself: on articles I edit where I work with the topic on a professional and academic level, I still oftentimes get reverted or tagged to find verifiable resources since I tend to have a skewed concept of what is "common knowledge".  We have argued the north-south issue incessantly and gone nowhere from it: we need information we can actually use.  If you can locate a research study which surveys Marylanders regarding their interpretations of their identity, that would be a good start for getting this discussion oriented in the right direction. -- Bossi  ( talk ;; contribs ) 23:25, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I understand the purpose of Wikipedia and the nature of its content, and I strongly support it. I just thought that the "talk" sections were for less formalized discussion. PSF207.59.160.2 12:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Here, Here. We all have our opinions, but in order to move the discussion forward we need to back up our positions with academic peer-reviewed research. I tried to start a thread about the Southern Focus Study, but discussion was rather limited. What it comes down to is that everybody wants to add their two cents and everybody thinks their opinion matters. That's great but unless you back it up with evidence it contributes little to Wikipedia.Lasersnake 12:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry if I'm being dense here, but frankly I'm still not clear on this. It seems to me like you all somewhat agree with me on one hand that "talk" pages are for less formalized discussion, then in the next breath tell me references are still required. Yes or no-- writing that I was born and raised in Maryland and have never heard anyone there call themselves "southern" is inappropriate because I can't document it? PSF207.59.160.2 13:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I wouldn't say it is "inappropriate." It is just that the debate on this issue has moved past the point where one person's ancedotal observations or opinions are going to contribute anything new. You are right, the talk page is more informal than the article itself, but some rules of order still need to be maintained in order to make sure that the debate is moving towards some kind of resolution. If you look over this page you will see dozens of posts by people with well-meaning personal opinions about MD's regional status. Some agree with what you are saying, some don't. How are we to make sense of this? How can we judge and evaluate and weigh the evidence that is presented in these cases? Can I get inside of your head, live your experiences, feel your emotions to judge whether you are right or wrong? Of course I can't. On the other hand, if an academic peer reviewed article or study is presented, I can read that article, I can double check that person's references, I can examine the same evidence, I can agree or disagree with them based on the merits of their arguement...not their personal believes. So long story short, nothing you said is inappropriate, but understand that unless you want to present some actual verifiable evidence to back up your opinion, there is very little to discuss, even on the discussion page.Lasersnake 14:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally-- why did it end up that the Maryland page reads "Maryland is a Mid-Atlantic / Southern state" if the matter was never truly resolved? Wouldn't simply saying "Maryland is a Mid-Atlantic" be far less provocative? I would be asking the same question if it read "Maryland is a Mid-Atlantic / Northern state" even though I'm convinced in a vote north would come out way ahead. PSF207.59.160.2 15:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The Mid-Atlantic/Southern label is a compromise. There are folks on both sides of the issue with very strong opinions and it turned into a intermittant revert battle. The current label seems to be supported well by evidence. There has been evidence presented that both the Mid-Atlantic and Southern labels are justified (see this page as well as the discussion page archives on the Southern USA page for more info.) I don't think one label can be found that would accurately describe the whole state. MD, as I am sure you know, is a right on the border between North and South, it has urban, suburban, and rural areas, some very diverse and some very uniform communities, mountains and the shore, etc, etc. Trying to squeeze the state into one cultural area, be it Mid-Atlantic, North, or South doesn't do justice to the diversity of the state and would continue to make the page a target for disgruntled MDers that feel their personal cultural allegience is being ignored. I am open to suggestions. If you have new ideas, go ahead and find some evidence for them and put them forward.Lasersnake 15:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, as I suggested, I think "Mid Atlantic" IS the best compromise. Saying north or south along with it is going to continue to make the page a target for disgruntled MDers that feel their personal cultural allegiance is being ignored. It's what brought this whole issue to my attention in the first place. Mid Atlantic in and of itself doesn't seem to be very provocative and seems to be quite well documented. Most any on line search for the term includes Maryland in the description. If it had always read simply "Mid Atlantic" I don't think it ever would have drawn any attention to itself. What's wrong with that? PSF207.59.160.2 16:10, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

"Mid-Atlantic" is in itself a region. It may not have quite the emotional impact of "North" or "South," but the term carries its own meaning. You are right to say that Maryland is part of the Mid-Atlantic region, but this in and of itself does not exclude the state from being sometimes/occasionally considered "Southern" as well. I think everyone agrees that Maryland's place among the Southern states is not as clear cut as say VA is, but there enough evidence, such as the historical instution of slavery, settlement patterns, demographics, dialect, cuisine, and most importantly self-identity (40% of Marylanders say they live in the South, see Southern Focus study in previous thread) to justify some inclusion. Maybe in 20 or 30 years this will not the be case anymore, but for now I think the label still fits.Lasersnake 14:36, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Picking "south" is a value judgment-- no matter how you slice it. I read your arguments and they carry no more weight than these plain facts:

• Geographic evidence- Take a U.S. map and measure the distance between the northern tip of Maine and the southern tip of Florida. Notice that the halfway point falls just about on the border between VA and NC-- a whole state below Maryland. If you're a stickler for accuracy-- rotate the map so that the nearby longitude lines are close to parallel with your ruler, and include the Florida Keys if you want-- it makes little difference.

• Civil War status - No one denies Maryland was officially a UNION state, albeit one that allowed slavery.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_%28American_Civil_War%29

• South of the Mason Dixon Line - Contrary to popular belief, this argument is irrelevant. As I wrote earlier, the Mason-Dixon Line was created between 1763 and 1767 to settle land disputes between MD and PA. It had nothing to do with north vs. south. At best, it was used "symbolically as a supposed cultural boundary between the Northern United States and the Southern United States" in popular speech-- hence the confusion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mason-Dixon_line

• You actually use the argument that "40% of Marylanders say they live in the South from the Southern Focus study". Doesn't that very point indicate that 60% of Marylanders say they DON'T live in the south???? Are the majority of Marylanders wrong about their own identity? That alone nearly makes the case.

• Demographics, dialect, cuisine- Have you even been to Maryland? It is very much a border state. It certainly draws from north and south but there is no particular predilection for southern dialect or cuisine. Both catogies are uniquely Mid Atlantic. Demographic arguments really don't work for Maryland which is every bit as north as it is south in these respects. Southern influence is the minority, but even if one insists it's 50/50, how does that justify the choosing a southern or northern title?

• Several native Marylanders (including myself) in this debate stated that they were brought up being taught that they were northern and had never even heard it debated. This reflects the experience of every Marylander I currently know. Conversely, I read NO arguments from native Marylanders here making the same adamant claim about be southern, albeit some insisted that they strongly believe themselves to be southern now. This fact is completely dismissed for not including references to support it.

Clearly-- it's not my call. I suppose I'll just have to settle for the decision that is made, but I must say, as a longtime fan, this is my first major disappointment with Wikipedia. For whatever reason, some bias seems to be at work here. Considering the degree of heated controversy and the fact that there is no clear cut answer, it's amazing to me that it can't simply be labeled a "Mid Atlantic state whose north/south status is a matter of controversy" and then include a section describing the disagreement. This would be unequivocally true and non confrontational from anyone's perspective. Call it a "border" state if you must get into the whole north/south thing. No one can deny that. I never said the Mid Atlantic title excludes MD from being north or south. I simply meant that its Mid Atlantic place is clear, while its north/south position is debatable-- so why insist on choosing one? PSF207.59.160.2 16:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

You make a good point. picking "south" or "mid-atlantic" or any other cultural label is a pure value judgement. It is a value judgement each individual makes about their own personal regional allegience and the perceived allegience of their state. You make very valid points for MD being considered "Mid-Atlantic." Many MDers agree with you and as such that designation is clearly stated in the article. What the argument is really about, is that you want to exclude the Southern label. I agree with you again when you say that MD is a border state, a state with influences from both the North and South. We could go back and forth arguing about MD in the Civil War, or how southern the dialect of parts of MD are, and about sweet tea and fried chicken, and so one, but would it get us anywhere? Sorry, I don't really have the stomach to fight these same battles over and over again. Please go to the Southern USA discussion archive for a very very through examination of all of these issues. On a bit of a tangent. I am a native MDer, as where my parents, and their parents, and their parents, and so on. My family has lived in the same community in Western Maryland since the 1780s. I have also lived in the agricultural middle of the state, and in the suburbs of both Baltimore and D.C. I know the state very well but have tried very hard to not let my personal knowledge of the state be my crutch in these arguements. The one thing I am completely convinced of is that anybody that claims the entire state can be summed up in one regional label is wrong. Our wonderful diverse state has aspects of the Mid-Atlantic, the North East Urban Corridor, the coastal plantation South, and Appalachia. In conclusion, your suggestion about labeling the state as "Mid Atlantic state whose north/south status is a matter of controversy" sounds acceptable to me. I don't think that will be enough to stop it from being revereted though. That is the way Wikipedia works. The same people you are disappointed with for not agreeing with you are the same people that added all of the other content to the page and the same people that monitor it every hour to fix vandalism. What you are calling "bias" is actually a temporary compromise based on months of discussion. I am sorry you don't agree with it.Lasersnake 18:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Neither "Mid Atlantic south" or "Mid Atlantic North" is a compromise, since we've already concluded "Mid Atlantic" does not affect the north/south status. Mid Atlantic is a separate categorization from north/south. You may as well have written "East Coast / South" or "blue state / southern". A compromise is "Mid Atlantic / border state".

It sounds like we basically agree-- it's a border state and there is no consensus on its north/south status. Any ruling one way or the other is a judgment call. Labeling it a border state may not ever eliminate vandalism but wouldn't be LESS controversial and perhaps more accurate? I certainly hope it is not Wikipedia's policy to bend the truth or give in to militant minorities for fear of vandalism.

PSF207.59.160.2 19:22, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Not a Southern State
As a Southerner, I find it pretty ridiculous that Maryland is included in our region. They really have nothing in common with us, not only from a cultural but also from a geographical standpoint. It really is an insult to our heritage that a state whose history, values, politics, and contemporary popular perusasions are so markedly dissimilar to our own is somehow defined as part of Dixie.

That being said, I'm sure the Marylanders (who clearly view themselves as Northern) aren't too thrilled to be told, that, cotrary to what they've surely believed their entire lives, they're actually residents of the South.

The South ends, effectively, at the Potomac River. It really is very upsetting to me that Wikipedia doesn't reflect that reality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.171.0.148 (talk) 05:58, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed.72.81.251.2 (talk) 22:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe because it's 2008 and we don't use outdated Civil War politics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.244.19.51 (talk) 23:40, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Introduction
I think it's a bit rich that we're defining Maryland as "Southern" on this page. That to me seems to be a fairly radical reworking of the demographics, economics, politics, and geography of the region, particularly for an encyclopedia that says it is not a database for "original research."

I for one actually am a Southerner and find this classification to be not only inaccurate but borderline insulting; Maryland shares very little in common with the rest of the South, and I speak from the perspective not of a Texan, Floridian, or South Carolinian, but rather as a Virginian.

This really, really bothers me. From a cultural perspective (rates of church attendance, religious identification, household income, voting tendencies, music, cuisine, etc) it just doesn't make sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.217.137.29 (talk) 04:34, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Virginian, yes, the capital splits the north/south line, the Mason-Dixon is ancient. We speak like true southerners, about 65% of Maryland literally doesn't, just some, especially not their African Americans, unlike our states and literally all the Southern US. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:BC84:D540:FD4B:78D0:EE16:ACB2 (talk) 07:46, 6 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Agreed.72.81.251.2 (talk) 22:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Maryland is a Southern State
Well.....I am a native Marylander from Allegany County and I find it insulting that we are being classified as "Mid-Atlantic". Especially when the US Census Bureau themselves classify Maryland as a Southern State. We share much more in common with Virginia, North Carolina, and Tennessee than we do with New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and New York. At least where I come from we do. I was raised Southern and have always believed I am Southern. Maryland has been a Southern colony/state since it joined the Union and always will be part of the Southland no matter what.

The biggest reason that ya'll from further south can say that we don't have anything in common with you is because of all the DAMN YANKEES that come down here and destroy our way of life. They come across the Mason-Dixon Line and think they own the place. We are occupying Iraq and Afghanistan right now.....does that make them part of America? No. It's the same deal with the yankees and Maryland. They have occupied this state but because people from New York bring their way of life to Maryland it doesn't make this state New York.

Go ahead and keep saying we ain't Southern. I know and the rest of us Southerners know what harm yankees do when they invade your homeland. I find it pretty weak and cowardly that you abandon a sister Southern state because she's been invaded. Instead of supporting us you just act like we're a bunch of yankees too. It's a matter of time before the yankees come to your town in Virginia and change it and people don't regard you as being Southern anymore. Then will come the Carolinas, Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia, and the rest of the South will be changed. There's only one way we're gonna fight yankees changing our homeland into a mega-mall and that's if we stick together as Southerners. Quit backing down and cowardly abandoning your fellow Southrons and stand up against change.USMarineCorps1989 (talk) 07:15, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Questionable footnote and a modest proposal
Footnote four reads as follows:


 * While the U.S. Census Bureau designates Maryland as one of the South Atlantic States, many consider it to be a part of the Mid-Atlantic States and/or Northeastern United States. Examples include other U.S. government agencies (such as the Library of Congress, Geological Survey, Environmental Protection Agency, National Park Service, and Department of Energy), and public service organizations (such as Amtrak and the Princeton Review). Google's categorization scheme includes it in both the Mid-Atlantic and Northeastern regions.

That's not really accurate. If you go to each page, you will find:


 * Two websites which list it as part of the Mid-Atlantic (Library of Congress, Google).
 * Five websites which list it as part of the Northeast, but which do not make any refernce to the Mid-Atlantic (Environmental Protection Agency, National Park Service, Department of Energy, Amtrack, and Princeton Review)
 * One bad link (Geogical Survey)

I'm not really sure that Google, Amtrack, and the Princeton Review should be given the same weight as the other Government sources. Nevertheless, assuming they are all equally valid, there's no mention of the traditional definition, as articulated in textbooks and dictionaries.

After reading over this page, and the discussion found elsewhere, it seems that there is no consensus and little chance for agreement. So I'd like to propose the following compromise, which while lacking in certainty, is not lacking in accuracy. "Maryland is part of the East Coast of the United States and is often considered part of the Mid-Atlantic, Northern United States, and Southern United States, depending on the source." There could be an accompanying footnote which could list the differning sources. This would not settle the debate but would at least frame it accurately.

I'm pretty sure that there will be no agreement on this subject. However, with its inaccurate citations, the article can't be left as is. So give me your thoughts and in a few days the neccessary changes can be made.

Your thoughts? &quot;Country&quot; Bushrod Washington (talk) 00:33, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * How many valid sources consider Maryland a Southern state? The only one on my mind is the Census Bureau. Also, in an introduction to an article about a US state, I don't think the dated traditional definition of the region that it's placed in is very relevant. I think as long as we assure that the Mid-Atlantic is not necessarily the north, most reasonable people will agree that Maryland is in the Mid-Atlantic. Delaware's article has a similar footnote too. And which sources articulate the traditional definition, besides history textbooks? This issue has been pretty stable for several weeks, there is no reason to bring it up again.


 * Calling a citation inaccurate is an opinion. I don't think that gov't sources and other companies should be dubbed "inaccurate". As with wikipedia's policy, the region of Maryland needs to be cited, and it is. Faz90 (talk)


 * I would also like to add that most of this arguing happened before the long footnote of citations was added. Since then, there hasn't been any significant controversy. Faz90 (talk)


 * I guess that I missed the “and/or Northeastern United States” portion of the footnote. That’s my mistake; the footnote is fine, though the Geological Survey link is bad and should be replaced.


 * I still maintain that the traditional definition is relevant, if only to provide historical perspective. Once I find a few verifiable sources, I’ll try to find a way to incorporate them into the article . . . though not in the introductory paragraph.  &quot;Country&quot; Bushrod Washington (talk) 04:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok then its all good Faz90 (talk)

I have no idea where the Census Bureau gets off calling us "South Atlantic". As indicated above, there are FAR more references to Maryland as a Mid Atlantic state, and rightfully so. Any way you quantify it, geographically, demographically, culturally, Maryland is very much Mid Atlantic. Would any of the "Southern sympathizers" in here like to tell several THOUSAND Maryland companies with "Mid Atlantic" in their names they don't know what they're talking about? PSF --71.173.199.188 (talk) 03:22, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm pretty glad to see the US Census Bureau rightfully include Maryland in with the South. I fail to see your point about all of these different companies with Mid-Atlantic in their names. I live in Allegany County out here in Western Maryland so maybe it's different where you are. But I'm looking in my phonebook right now and I count 0 buisnesses with "Northern" in their names; 2 buisnesses with "Mid-Atlantic" in their names; and 6 buisnesses have "Southern" in their names. If we go by your logic then why in the world does Maryland's page classify her as a Mid-Atlantic state when there's three times the "Southern" buisnesses than "Mid-Atlantic" buisnesses? Lastly, I was born and bred right here in Maryland and I sure as heck ain't no "Southern sympathizer".....I am a Southerner.USMarineCorps1989 (talk) 05:47, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Where I'm from? Clearly it is different where I'm from. The term "Mid Atlantic" is ubiquitous-- "Southern" is no where to be found. I'm from the center of the state where MOST people in Maryland live. You honestly don't know that you are in the minority and a relatively isolated subset of the state? I'm aware that there is a small population in western Maryland and one in southern Maryland who relates with the south. They are in the minority. You're reading my point about Maryland businesses out of context. I simply included it as evidence of what local people relate to. My main points are elsewhere on this page. I was born and bred in Maryland as well, and I assure you I'm *not* a southerner. PSF--71.173.199.188 (talk) 18:02, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, while I'm at it-- add to the citations above authorities that consider Maryland "North" and/or "Mid Atlantic":

United States Army Corps of Engineers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:USACE-District-Map.jpg

Wikitravel http://wikitravel.org/en/Mid-Atlantic

PSF--71.173.199.188 (talk) 20:26, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like it must be cleary different there in central Maryland where MOST of the people are. MOST of which aren't native Marylanders. When I talk about the Maryland buisnesses I too am showing you evidence of what my local people relate to. All we are really proving is how diverse our state is. However, when we in Western Maryland relate with the South and those is Southern Maryland and the Eastern Shore do the same that's quite a lot of people. I can't speak for Southern Maryland or the Eastern Shore although I imagine they're the same way but the majority of us here in the Western part of the state are all pretty well natives. Not just a majority but an overwhelming majority as in 95%+. I honestly doubt the same can be said for the people in your area. Most of you are Northerners who come down here thinking "a big buisness sure would look nice there where that pond is." Of course MOST of you don't relate with the South like MOST of us natives do. MOST of you *ain't* from here.

While I'm at it-- I'll reinforce the fact that the U.S. Census Bureau lists Maryland as a Southern State. Being the folks that study American population in different regions I think I'll put their word above Wikitravel's word.

If I just search Google images; one search for "Southern States" and one search for "Northern States".....I find a pile more of Maryland being included in the South rather than the North.

USMarineCorps1989 (talk) 04:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Apparently your internet works differently out there in western Maryland too because mine doesn't show any such thing. I have no idea where you get the notion that most people here or even a lot people here are NOT native to Maryland. The vast majority of everyone I've ever known is native to Maryland and my family on both sides goes back generations here. And, as others here have suggested, it wasn't until I discovered the internet that I EVER even heard anyone suggest that Maryland is southern– I'm talking about 43 years of life including 12 years of Maryland schooling and four years of a Maryland college education.

Here is the Mid Atlantic as it was taught to everyone I went to school with and their children:  http://www.enchantedlearning.com/usa/statesbw/midatlantic/midatlantic.shtml

Here it is again: http://sillysoft.net/lux/maps/Mid%20Atlantic%20States

and again: http://members.aol.com/mmcbs/mausmap.html

and again: http://www.mrnussbaum.com/midatlantic.htm

You will find occasional variations to this, but it is by far the most recognized map. The Census Bureau simply isn't the end-all word in the matter. PSF--71.173.199.188 (talk) 03:27, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, you talk about "quite a lot of people". I think you need to refer to a MD population density listing:

http://www.mc-mncppc.org/research/data_library/population/po14b.shtm

Without doing the math, it looks like ALL of the counties you're referring to don't even add up to ONE of the larger central countries. PSF--71.173.199.188 (talk) 03:59, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

To the anon editor: How is it that being considered a Mid-Atlantic state disqualifies Maryland from being southern? "Mid-Atlantic" and "Southern" are not mutually exclusive. The south is a region of the United States, defined by a common history and culture, and indeed that region includes a good part of Maryland (Western, Southern, and Eastern Shore). The Mid-Atlantic on the other hand is a term that applies to states in the middle of the part of the country that borders the Atlantic, and could very well also apply to Virginia. Does that make Virginia not southern? Like I said before, Maryland is part northern, part southern; it's been that way since at least the Civil War and I doubt that's about to change anytime soon. You shouldn't discredit the Census Bureau's classification of Maryland into the South-Atlantic region just because your part of the state is the Northern part.-Jeff (talk) 22:36, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

If you (Jeff) are refering to me, I never said being considered a Mid-Atlantic state disqualifies Maryland from being southern OR northern. In fact, had you read the whole argument from early on, you'd see where I argued your very point here (from above):

"Who in their right mind argues that Maryland isn't a Mid-Atlantic state? Whether you believe it's northern or southern isn't even relevant to its more modern regional categorization. It's as silly as saying Connecticut is a northern state not a part of New England. They're NOT mutually exclusive categories." ...PSF 207.59.160.2 16:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

But I strongly disagree with you that "The Mid-Atlantic" is just a term that applies to states in the middle of the part of the country. The regions have always been defined by several factors including culture, geography, history and industry. This pages sums it up very well:

http://www.usastudyguide.com/regionaldifferences.htm PSF--71.173.199.188 (talk) 03:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I see the Maryland page has now been locked down with "Maryland is a Mid-Atlantic state" as the opening sentence. I'm still opposed to that as I'm sure plenty others are too. Why not tell the flat out TRUTH and say something like "Maryland is designated by the U.S. Census Bureau as a Southern State"? Why do all the Northern sympathizers get exactly what they want locked in and a Southerner can't even edit to tell how they beleive?--USMarineCorps1989 (talk) 04:34, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

What you miss USMarineCorps is you are in the tiny minority. Very few people in Maryland consider themselves southern and certainly MANY consider themselves Mid Atlantic and/or northern. As I said before, I was born and raised in central Maryland and never once even heard it suggested I was in a southern state until I got on line. Southerners were clearly refered to as "them" all through school and everywhere else. So, if this one source, the U.S. Census Bureau changed it's mind, you'd be satisfied? PSF--Psf11 (talk) 22:39, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, I, as well as plenty of other Marylander's grew up differently than you. For one, just the fact that we are debating Maryland's status means it MUST have Southern indentities and not be a flat-out Northern state. Just take a look up this page. There are just as many, if not more Southern "favorers" than Northern. Now I know that this doesn't reflect Maryland's whole population but I'd say it definitely makes a point. On the point of who classifies Maryland as what....plenty of websites will flop a regional bordering state be it Northern or Southern to help with keeping track of stores or boosting. For example, a nationwide buisness can claim MD as well as DE/VA/WV/KY as Southern or Northern states so that they can say that they have so many buisnesses in whatever region. They will use it to boost stats basically. Now the U.S. Census Bureau is not a buisness. It is an agency that studies what? American people and how and where they live. I'd put the U.S. Census Bureau's word over 100 buisness websites' words.

Now back on track to your reply. Where I grew up here in the Western part of the state we weren't ever told we were a Northern state. Nobody goes to school and gets told "You're a Northerner or you're a Southerner." It's pretty well common sense I believe and you learn with age. When I look around this state I definitely feel deeper roots to the South than anything.

To answer your question, yes, if the U.S. Census Bureau classified Maryland as a Northern state I would believe them. However, they do not. The U.S. Census Bureau classifies the state of Maryland as a state of The South. In that region we are classified as a South Atlantic state along with West Virginia, Delaware, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida. Now just how do you KNOW that a HUGE majority Marylander's consider themselves Mid-Atlantic or Northern? You must be trying to take the Census Bureau's work and go and survey all of these Marylanders yourself aren't you?

Now I don't mind debating this with you, not in the least bit. What ticks me right off is how, somehow, the main page has been locked down from edits with all of yall's way of thinking. I'm looking at the first paragraph and I already see at least three things that I strongly disagree with. God forbid I read on what I might find. I'd like to think that the moderator would at least be fair about this and put everybody's opinion or else nobody's opinion.--USMarineCorps1989 (talk) 07:07, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh– we're NOT told we're a "Northerner or we're a Southerner" in school? Wrong on that one for sure! They most certainly did refer to the north as "US" and the south as "THEM" through all of school without a single exception. As I've said repeatedly here– I didn't even know it was a question before I grew up and got on–line. I perhaps heard of a "redneck" or two in high school, with discernible accents and ancestry in the south who related with the south. I even remember learning in college that "THEY" taught Civil War history differently in the south– often calling it the "War of Northern Aggression" and that "THEY" felt they were in the right, though "WE" knew better. We were taught with unabashed northern bias.

You actually say it's "It's pretty well common sense" if you're north or south right after pointing out all identity confusion on this very page? Well, I for one agree that for most people, it IS common sense that MD is north. Most people agree that the minority opinion, that MD is south, is well confined to the far west and south of the state. If you lived central MD, where the majority of the population lives, you wouldn't have to be told most people think they are in the north.

The census bureau classification doesn't have nearly the weight you suggest. Who knows all their rationale, politically driven and otherwise. Tradition speaks volumes and the north (and particularly the mid Atlantic) has always been defined by industry, not to mention it's physical position on the map...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_States --Psf11 (talk) 03:14, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Census Bureau Designations

Yet another reason NOT to put all your eggs in the Census Bureau basket– they have their own unique motivations for naming things as they do which do not necessary reflect the opinions of the populations in the areas they are naming. Good example– one of my own "hometowns" "Timonium" (actually an unincorporated community, as is the custom in Baltimore County) is not recognized as an individual entiity by the Census Bureau– it's considered part of "Lutherville-Timonium". Well, anyone from Timonium says "I'm from Timonium". They consider it distinct from Lutherville as does Lutherville. But damn what they think! The almighty Census Bureau says they're ONE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutherville-Timonium,_Maryland

You MUST take Census Bureau classifcations in context of the Census Bureau– not as universally accepted ideas. PSF --Psf11 (talk) 18:32, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Why is Maryland listed as a Mid-Atlantic State?
For one, I'm quite ticked off that Maryland is "locked" as a Mid-Atlantic state. We haven't come to an official conclusion yet. What I reckon would be the fair thing to do here, which doesn't seem likely (note Maryland being "locked" as a Mid-Atlantic state), is list Maryland as an East Coast state as NOBODY can deny that.

I follow the link to the "Mid-Atlantic region" and oddly enough I see Maryland is striped along with Virginia and West Virginia. Same as the Southern region page but for some reason Maryland doesn't get listed as being a Southern state.

The way I see it you've got two options.

1.) Make Maryland's first sentence say something along the lines of "Maryland is a state located on the East Coast." That is the absolute truth and nobody can deny it.

2.) Do what it seems almost everybody else does, except us, and follow US Census Bureau classifications. Again that is the absolute truth and cannot be denied. Folks will say "Well such and such lists Maryland as a Northern/Mid-Atlantic state" but most of the other state pages on Wikipedia aren't using those other sites. Most go by their Census Bureau classification.

Whatever you do Admin please make it truthful and factual. Heck, the doggone citations for Mid-Atlantic state (7 and 8) say loud clear what Maryland is known as a Southern state. -68.236.253.181 (talk) 19:55, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I for one have given a veritable essay's worth of reasons why MD is a Mid Atlantic state, so I don't know what else to add. All I hear from the you and the opposition is "because the Census Bureau says so". Why don't you tell me why THAT'S the last word on the matter? To me, if pretty much everyone who lives in a region calls it something, that trumps most other definitions. As a native Marylander, I'd never heard anyone claim NOT to be from the Mid Atlantic until I found this discussion. PSF--71.173.195.74 (talk) 21:53, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

And, as has been stated repeatedly, "Mid Atlantic" and "Northern/Southern" are NOT mutually exclusive terms. They are two different categorizations just as you can be a Marylander and an American at the same time. PSF--71.173.195.74 (talk) 21:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Incidentally– did you not read the very wiki page to which you refer about Mid Atlantic states which DOES include MD in the text portion of the description? It reenforces my point that U.S. regions were traditionally defined much more based on cultural ties and origins than anything else. The "almighty" Census Bureau defines things for THEIR OWN PURPOSES– not to tell people where they live! I think my above example about their classification of Timonium and Lutherville as ONE place, whereas locals consider it TWO places, exemplifies that point well. PSF--71.173.195.74 (talk) 22:09, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

"All I hear from the you and the opposition is "because the Census Bureau says so"." -PSF

I'm sorry but no, we Southrons have given you a veritable essay describing Maryland's regional characteristics. However, everything that we factually state you shoot down as "well that doesn't matter". How come none of our points hold water to you but your points are the end all be all? 1.)Mason-Dixon Line - doesn't matter anymore...why not? 2.) Southern accents...totally normal in a northern state right? 3.) Rebel flags...you ain't seen any in your city world so there must not be any anywhere right? (Goes along with Southern accents too)

There's too many more to list but none of it holds water to you because YOU decided that they are culturally irrelevant somehow or you haven't seen/heard it in your city world so it must not exist anywhere in the state.

Yes, I read the Mid-Atlantic page where it includes Maryland in the text portion of the page as you put it. I also see that it can be freely edited to include whatever information someone like you decides to throw in there. By the way, the Southern page includes Maryland in it's text too. But that probably is irrelevant and totally outdated somehow.

Back on topic though. This here just reinforces that fact that the main page needs to say something definitive and truthful that can't be denied.USMarineCorps1989 (talk) 02:33, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know why I'm bothering because what I'm saying obviously isn't being read– but just for the hell of it, I repeat: "And, as has been stated repeatedly, "Mid Atlantic" and "Northern/Southern" are NOT mutually exclusive terms. They are two different categorizations just as you can be a Marylander and an American at the same time." --207.114.17.78 (talk) 11:36, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

You're being read just fine. Sorry I didn't leave a direct comment to each and every point you made in your previous post. Don't bother with mine.

That is only your opinion that Mid-Atlantic and Northern/Southern aren't mutually exclusive terms. I missed the part that said you make the rules.

Some might consider Mid-Atlantic to be Northern. Some might consider Mid-Atlantic to be Southern. Some might consider it an in between region of it's own. So I'll repeat like you: This is another example of why the main page should be changed to something that's definitive, truthful, and cannot be denied or argued.--USMarineCorps1989 (talk) 00:19, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Is it unclear to you that *North/South* is typically a division strongly associated with the Civil War and the cultural differences between slave and non-slave owning states while "Mid Atlantic" is more modern regional designation based on numerous cultural, commercial, geographic and other attributes? The terms are NOT analogous. If this were NOT true, and "Mid Atlantic" was synonymous with the "North", explain to me what "New England" is?

My opinion? No friend– I believe it's called "common sense".--207.114.17.78 (talk) 13:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Type "Mid-Atlantic" into the Wikipedia search and tell me what it says. Does the third listing down not say something to the effect of "Mid-Atlantic States, a region in the North East of the USA"? Please explain.--USMarineCorps1989 (talk) 05:53, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry it offends your sensibilities, but Maryland IS geographically a northern state– like it or not. That is independent of the north/south debate in the Civil War context of the term. That is not debatable. --71.173.195.74 (talk) 04:16, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

You should really keep your terminology straight. If you're arguing this from a geographical perspective (as opposed to a political one) MD is unequivocally a MID Atlantic state– perhaps the MOST MID Atlantic state.--71.173.195.74 (talk) 04:27, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Geographically in what perspective? If you are talking USA only then yes it is as well as Virginia. However, I'm not arguing a geographical stand-point. I'm talking culture and way of life. Maybe that's all y'all see is geographics though and nothing else.--USMarineCorps1989 (talk) 17:23, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

By pointing out that Wikipedia's Mid-Atlantic page reads "Mid-Atlantic States, a region in the North East of the USA" was it not your intention to counter my point that "Mid Atlantic" and "North" were not synonymous? In case you didn't grasp that, I'm trying to stress to you that being in the Mid Atlantic, which is geographically north, does NOT necessarily mean it can't be a southern state since NORTH in this context is a simply a latitude and not a cultural designation. It's remarkable that you can't seem to see the distinction between "North" and "Mid Atlantic". As I recall the 1985 made-for-TV movie I saw wasn't called "Mid Atlantic & South".

Incidentally, I've never heard anyone in Maryland say "y'all" outside of doing an impersonation– if that tells you anything. PSF--Psf11 (talk) 11:31, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Interesting headline this morning– "Meteor lights up Mid-Atlantic area's skies". Wonder where that could be? Oh, how about that– it says right here: "Scores of people in Maryland and Pennsylvania who lingered outdoors into the early morning hours Monday were startled by the brilliant flash of a meteor that soared over the Mid-Atlantic states."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bal-md.meteor07jul07,0,2101919.story?track=rss --Psf11 (talk) 11:12, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Well congratulations to you...you've met your first Marylander that says "y'all" not doing an impersonation. I wouldn't expect you to hear it in your city life with foreigners and your Yankee carpetbagger friends who moved down here. Get out of you city world and into "country" Maryland, which by the way makes up a vast majority of the state, and I'm sure you'll hear plenty of words as well as accents that you don't like to hear.

Yes, I agree. Very interesting headline indeed.....how could somebody mess up the region in that headline? Should I copy a picture of my brother's 6th grade textbook talking about agriculture in the South, showing a picture of an "Upper South cornfield just west Hagerstown, MD"? I'm certainly glad they're teaching them correctly here.--USMarineCorps1989 (talk) 03:36, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, ya got me wrong– I LOATHE the city. My upbringing was in the suburbs and county. And I guess your brother's 6th grade textbook is the definitive word. Sure carries more wight than the 10,000 business in the area which have the words "Mid Atlantic" in their names. Guess they don't know what the hell they're talking about. I'll have them refer to your brother's 6th grade textbook to set them straight.--Psf11 (talk) 22:33, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Once again– "Mid Atlantic" and "North/South" are NOT mutually exclusive terms. Wish I knew the southern lingo for that. PSF --Psf11 (talk) 22:34, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Here's the real question– why is it so hard for you to accept that there are gray areas? People and cultures don't suddenly change because someone draws a line on a map. Opinions vary with every shape and color between. Maryland is a border state. I think we can agree that no one in it thinks "Huh– I live at X latitude so I have to be on this side". It's a hybrid of cultures and mixes many elements of north and south. How can you possibly deny that? Calling it "Mid Atlantic, in my book, is a pretty neutral compromise. --Psf11 (talk) 22:48, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh– incidentally– you honestly believe the rural population makes up the majority of the state? Try looking at the population density chart created by your omniscient Census Bureau–

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maryland_population_map.png --Psf11 (talk) 12:10, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

"...Most of the population of Maryland lives in the central region of the state, in the Baltimore Metropolitan Area and Washington Metropolitan Area, both of which are part of the Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Psf11 (talk • contribs) 22:41, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

To we Canadians, All Americans are southern
Stop arguing over whether or not you are Southern. All Americans are Southern. I am Canadian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.171.52.166 (talk) 00:19, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

No, Americans are not all southern. Americans can either northern or southern, to you (because you are from Canada) we are all southern. but that isn't the same as being from the southern US. 66.59.49.88 (talk) 15:27, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Dear Unsigned– Unless you appreciate comments that Canadians all do nothing but drink Molson and eat back bacon– kindly don't refer to all of us as "southern".--Psf11 (talk) 23:15, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

State Geographic Region
I have had to revert the article back to its latest verifiable version due to user Barek editing the state region as 'southern' without any verification or references. Most sources concerning Maryland state it as 'northeast'/'mid-atlantic'; has there been any reverts such as Barek's with references to it as southern? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexf92 (talk • contribs) 22:23, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
 * As I stated on your user talk page: Please be more careful when identifying who made disputed changes. As you can see from this diff showing my edit, the only edit I made was to remove vandalism.  If state region was edited, it was by someone else.  Looking at the edit history of the article, it appears that the changes to the region information was actually made by .  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:28, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I apologize for failing to see that it was not you who had changed the state region without verifying it. Thank you for telling me and I will be more careful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexf92 (talk • contribs) 22:38, 16 April 2009 (UTC) Okay some IP (as noted above) changed the state classification to "Southern" and now [|Teddickey] keeps blocking my attempts to change it even though I explained why. Sir, if you look at the area on the edit page there is a notice saying: "** ATTENTION ** ATTENTION ** ATTENTION ** Do not modify text relating to the classification of Maryland as a Northern, Mid-Atlantic, South-Atlantic, and/or Southern state without providing appropriate references. Discussion regarding this issue has been opened on a subpage accessible through the Talk tab." There has been very heated debate on this on the talk page regarding whether Maryland and Deleware are considered Northeast or Souhtern states, and the general consenus was that we would place "Mid-Atlatic" instead. Very few organizations classify Maryland as "Southern," and if it wasn't for the CB's classification it would labeled Northeast. The same is true of Delaware, and you will notice that it is also classified as "Mid-Atlantic" on its page. Plus, the Mid-Atlantic/Southern desginiation on the page entered by some unknown IP, is very contradictory since the CB's definition of Mid-Atlantic does not include Maryland (it only includes PA to NY). There is also a detailed explananation providing insight which parts of MD reflect which regions culturally. I'm going to change it back, so please do not continue to undo my changes at the risk of starting another lenghty dispute.007bond (talk) 23:59, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Part of your comments are factual. However, it seems that the consensus version is the one that you're rejecting (the qualified statement that many sources classify it as Mid-Atlantic, while some notable sources use Southern). Tedickey (talk) 10:02, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * ...and yet many classify it as Northeast. The FBI, US News (and most other media), and Boy Scouts for instance.007bond (talk) 23:09, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

007bond has an obvious agenda to put forth the untrue notion that Maryland is in no way, shape, or form Southern based on the classification of organizations which are not local, have very little to do with, and are not based in the state (Especially parts of the state most observers would classify as Southern in culture). Luckily anyone with two eyes and ears will be able to deduct for themselves that this is not the case if they ever decide to visit Maryland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.244.92.60 (talk) 16:46, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Maryland is Southern and Northern. I see no need to cite multiple references to counteract a census designation, as given at the end of this section. It makes the writer look desperate to eliminate any traces of a perceived southern aspect of the state. Why?

I would invite the writer of that portion to spend a week in Boston, then spend a week in Baltimore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.143.41.209 (talk) 00:44, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

As a native Marylander, and a black one at that, I find it insulting that people consider Maryland to be Northern. Historically, Maryland has been southern up until about the 1970s, when Maryland maintained its Democratic roots, while the rest of the South bit on to the Republican strategy of using conservative southern values. Many of the people who say Maryland is "northern" are transplants whose family have migrated to Maryland and haven't truly seen Maryland at all. My family has lived in the Washington area for over a century and a half. My father grew up during the Jim Crow era in D.C. He has a slight Southern accent when he talks and so do I.  Even so, most people think Baltimore and maybe the area around Washington is Maryland and forget about the other parts. Visit Southern and Eastern Maryland and even Western Maryland and you'll think you're in the middle of Tennessee. The Mason-Dixon line is, and has been, the standard for the division of North and South. That line is the Pennsylvania-Maryland border. Maryland is below that line. The U.S. Census to this day groups Maryland with the Southern states. The state anthem talks about how Abe Lincoln was a tyrant, and people still haven't changed it. These are facts, people. Wake up. No matter how much you want to say the people don't act like it, Maryland is and forever will be A SOUTHERN STATE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.59.115.1 (talk) 02:16, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Maryland is difficult to classify. We might agree that the west is "Southern." Near DC, it seems northern to me. Baltimore has never seemed Southern to me, except, maybe some of the architecture. I agree about the Jim Crow, but blacks were "invisible" in northern states too way back when. No "official" laws, but certain practices. I can't classify the Eastern peninsula. New, probably northern. I'd like to agree with the above editor, but would need more "facts." The opinions of either of us cannot be used here, unfortunately. Student7 (talk) 20:11, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Baltimore and Washington have lost their Southern identity, but it is large part to the cities themselves becoming more "global", like New York and Philadelphia. However, if that is true, then Atlanta, Miami, Houston, and Dallas definitely aren't Southern, but global as well. And that statement in most people's minds is blasphemous. Honestly, Maryland culturally is representative one of its nicknames "America in Miniature". It has a little bit of everything. However, the government has classified Maryland in the "South" region. The Capitals and Wizards (NHL and NBA franchises of DC) are in the Southeastern Divisions of their respective leagues. Yes, there would be a contradiction to that as the Ravens (NFL franchise) is in the AFC North; however, may I remind you that these Ravens are actually the original Cleveland Browns. Maryland had its own Confederate regiments in the Civil War and would have seceded from the Union had it not been for Abraham Lincoln. John Wilkes Booth was aided by native Marylanders (the Surratts) and may have escaped due to those efforts. And may I remind you there house still stands to this day in Clinton, Maryland (suburb of DC). If the government still says Maryland is the South, then it should be given the classification as Southern. People wanting Maryland to be Northern act as if being Southern is a bad thing, and it isn't. As the poster two entries above said, Maryland, no matter how "Northern" you may think it is, is a Southern state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.59.115.1 (talk) 21:40, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * "America in miniature" is certainly accurate. It is indisputable that Maryland wanted to support the South during the Civil War. Lincoln and northern soldiers had to circumvent Baltimore early in the war to get to DC without incident. And I agree about "city culture" being difficult to judge superficially. One city looks like another.
 * If the government has identified MD as "South", that would be a usable citation. Student7 (talk) 18:55, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

The citation is given in The South, Maryland for too long has been being treated as a Northern state just based on its political allegiances. The government has said Maryland is Southern. If you folks at Wikipedia can't agree with these gentlemen above and the US government, then I really don't know what will convince you. I am going to change it to the "Mid-Atlantic region of the Southern United States." Those who have a problem should back it up with reasonable (and I mean "the census doesn't say it's Southern" reasonable) evidence. Otherwise, Maryland is a Southern state. Strange, but a Southern state nonetheless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.59.115.1 (talk) 12:49, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The problem is that it's inaccurate phrasing. The Mid-Atlantic is not a subregion of the South as you imply. My opinion is that we should sidestep any controversy and simply say it's in the Mid-Atlantic, but I digress.


 * I came across an unrelated article from a highly reputable research organization on Women's Rights (Guttmacher, I think). They had classified Maryland (and Delaware!) as "Southern" for purposes of their listing. It seemed npov. Student7 (talk) 13:46, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Southern mid-Atlantic maybe? Baltimore has NOT entirely lost its Southern characteristics. Many, maybe most, native Baltimoreans consider themselves at least slightly "Southern"--granted, on the far Northern fringe of the region but in the region nontheless. I agree with the poster above that it's transplants who desperately want to change the characterization. It has been my experience that this is because they would much rather be living in the Northeast. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.246.21.82 (talk) 17:40, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Maryland also incorporates the Crossland flag into its flag design. The flag is significant because it was used by Marylanders not loyal to the Union, but to the Confederacy as a potential new flag. This flag design has remained in the Maryland state flag to this very day as a compromise. This, along with Maryland's state song (which by the way, refers to Lincoln as a tyrant and is still sung to this day) proves Maryland is definitely Southern. Becoming more global, but still Southern.66.83.115.178 (talk) 19:07, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Classification of Southern Maryland
I disagree with the exclusion of southern Prince Georges County out of the area considered to be Southern Maryland. There are a few clues that provides insight to why southern Prince Georges County are apart of Southern Maryland. First is Southern Maryland Hospital Center; it is located right off of Branch Avenue (Route 5) in Clinton, Maryland, which is southern PG County. Additionally, Pennsylvania Avenue (Route 4) is called Southern Maryland Boulevard in the PG County side of it, however once you enter Calvert County, following the merge with Route 2, the name changes to Solomons Island Road, again leading one to believe that it is called Southern Maryland Boulevard because it runs through Southern Maryland. The most prominent evidence supporting my claim is that in classifying the Legislative Districts for Southern Maryland between 1992-2000, the Maryland General Assembly classified Southern Maryland to include District 27A in Southern Maryland, which is southern Prince George's County (http://www.msa.md.gov/msa/mdmanual/07leg/map/html/southm.html). Even in the legislative districting for 2002-2010, District 27A is again included in Southern Maryland (http://www.mdp.state.md.us/redistrict/2002ld_courtappeals_62102_MD_map_web.pdf). This time 27A has a piece of northern Calvert County in its jurisdiction, meaning that again, southern Prince George's County is apart of Southern Maryland.

What do you guys think? Brightwell (talk) 04:19, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Couldn't agree more...."regions" often don't follow political boundaries, and southern PG (and southern A.A.) residents definitely consider themselves in "S. Md.".....as a professional geographer and student of MD geography for 35 years, I've always considered anything outside the Beltway and south of Central Ave. (the quite straight road that heads due east in line with the E. tip of DC) to be S. MD. But that's not "official" and I don't believe you'll find an "official" description.  So despite that Brightwell has his Rt. 4 data backwards above(Rt. 4 in S. PG is called PA Ave. 100%; in S. AA and N. Calvert it's "S. MD Blvd.") I agree with the conclusions. DLinth (talk) 14:13, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree, "Southern Maryland" is not just political, it is also cultural.

Telemachus.forward (talk) 20:40, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Maryland is Southern
Ladies and gentlemen, the culture is before your very eyes. Old Bay seasoning is a Maryland staple, and it isn't seen anywhere above the MDL, but is known in the South. The state song "Maryland, My Maryland" is a song attacking Lincoln for his arresting of Confederate Maryland legislators preventing Maryland from seceding. The Maryland flag is actually a combination of 2 flags, one the original pre-Civil War Maryland flag (the flag of the Calverts, proprietors of the colony) and the other the Crossland flag. Why is that significant? This flag was used by Marylanders loyal to the Confederacy. (Mississippi's flag having the Battle Flag in its design, but Maryland blatantly has 2 instances of one in its flag, but Mississippi takes all of the crap for having .)

Jim Crow laws were rampant in the state, even up until the late 1960s, when Maryland was one of 17 states that outlawed interracial marriages in 1967, the same year the groundbreaking film "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner?" came out. Wanna guess the other 16? I'll give you a hint: All of them were Southern states. Maryland is smaller compared to most states. What does this have to do with anything? Well, in urban areas, the people there vote usually for liberal, while the rural tend to lean more conservatively. Considering that Maryland has not one, but TWO metropolitan areas within the state, what were you going to expect? The loss of accent can be explained as simply as this: Northern transplants in combination with the urban culture. I grew up in Southern Prince George's County (DC suburb), and I have a Southern accent. Many of the kids I grew up with who made claims of Maryland being Northern came from families that were from the North themselves. My family (a black one at that) had been in Washington, D.C. over 150 years before I was born (1991-you do the math)...my father tells me stories of the segregation he faced as a young kid growing up in the 60s and early 70s.

I, a black Marylander, conclude that Maryland, is a Southern state. Anyone who disagrees should see the Mason-Dixon line and the U.S. Census Bureau.66.83.115.178 (talk) 20:57, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

You bet Maryland is southern.
I have lived in Southern Maryland all of my life. St. Mary's county to be exact. It has never been any question as to Maryland being a southern state down here. I was born in 1959, and all of my life growing up everyone concidered ourselves southern. You will find that we native marylanders all speek with a southern twang. When the population started to grow with the transplants coming in the county because of the navy base we noticed that the twang was disapearing. Oh, its still here, just only from the natives.

Back when I was young, everywhere I went I could see a confederate flag on a pole. Even today, there are many confederate flags up on poles around here. Even on bumpers and back windows of pick-up trucks.

I have and always will concider myself and the state of maryland a southern state.

Apart from the Eastern Shore, Maryland is All Northern
I have lived in Montgomery County, MD my entire life, and it has much more common with New England or New York than even nearby Virginia. The fact is the areas where the vast majority of Marylanders live is culturally, economically, and politically as northern as New England. The nearly unpopulated (Maryland's Dakotas) Eastern Shore, however, is drastically unlike the rest of the state in that it has as much northern influence as Alabama. There the old south reign supreme, which is why it is not industrial, mainly agricultural; it votes tea party while the rest of the state votes for proggressive democrats, and is the only place you will find people with confederate bumper stickers and flags. Baltimore is in essense a northern city, like Cleveland or Pittsburg, while Montgomery, PG, ect. are like northern suburbs anywhere in the north east. As for the unfortunate legacies of the Civil War with lines in the state song such as "northern scum" and Confederate monuments in Rockville, everyone outside the Eastern shore is ashamed of those unforunate legacies. So although historically a case could be made for Maryland being southern, in the modern era it is northern. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daniel.villar7 (talk • contribs) 22:35, 18 June 2013 (UTC)


 * It is worth mentioning that during a visit to my brother, who lived in D.C. at that time, we took two day trips: (1) to Rehoboth Beach Delaware driving through a good part of Maryland's eastern shore, and (2) to Charlottesville, VA. It is quite notable, culturally speaking, that we observed 0 Confederate Flags in MD, even along the eastern shore, however, shortly after exiting the D.C. metro area - as soon as 10 minutes outside of the Capital Beltway, and the VA countryside was one rebel flag after another. For what it's worth, this distinction speaks for itself.76.28.116.130 (talk) 02:28, 16 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't really think it's worth mentioning unless you live in Maryland or have visited multiple areas on separate trips. There are several counties in Maryland who are proud of their Southern upbringing and showcase it. Just because you didn't experience it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That's like me going to two different restaurants and one didn't serve beef, but the other did. Maybe I came during an off-hour or maybe I didn't see it on the menu...doesn't mean they don't sell it. The thing about MD is, many people complain when people rock confederate flags, but it is not illegal and still happens in the country-side/rural/mountain areas. Stuff happens everywhere, but you can't really base anything from a visit. Just because Baltimore City, Baltimore, Charles, Howard, PG and Montgomery Counties exist, it doesn't eliminate the 18 other counties, and the many people who pride themselves in Southern Living. Chic3z (talk) 19:59, 11 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Daniel.villar7, so out of the 24 counties (Baltimore City included), 18 of them vote Republican and only 6 vote democratic almost on a yearly basis. In most of the Republican counties, either country living or mountain living is the norm. In most of the Democratic counties, industrialized city living is the norm. So despite the fact that the 6 Northern-influenced places have more population totals, in reality, most of Maryland is Southern-influenced. Just listen to the accent outside of your county...mind-boggling how different the culture is in other parts. Chic3z (talk) 19:59, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Maryland is The North not The South
If I may add I went to Maryland a few times and when I said that I was from Virginia they called me a country bumpkin and that my accent was so cute. Later on they asked me about my opinion on the confederate flag which they rarely or never see. So I told them once you see it almost everyday, every where you kind of get used to it and it does not really bother us blacks you just ignore it. The group also asked me about what it is like to see cotton fields and I just laughed knowing that they were so serious about it. I shared my knowledge about them and told them about the pink trees(crepe myrtles) which they called them And told them their are white ones, dark red ones, and purple ones which amazed them. I also told them about the Spanish moss that grows wildly in some places and od course a southern favorite moonshine or Virginia lightning. After the conversation they said they would make sure they would come and visit because being from the north they never getto see these southern staples.

[long section title]
When you look at the Baltimore–Washington Metropolitan Area and urban area where there are Populated places in Maryland with African American majority populations it is more Northern then Southern. Although sometimes the people there want to be from The South so bad it's crazy that it doesn't make any sense. Like back in the day like the 80's and 90's they were more like New York, New Jersey, and Philadelphia with a Northern Style and East Coast Style and you could not call them Southern this is a true story. Although back then it was more of a mixture you had some people from the Washington D.C. area trying to be like New York in the 80's and in the 90's and then wanted to be like The West Coast in the late 80's and the early 90's and mid 90's and then when The South got hot on the scene in the mid 90's. I am talking about Hip-Hop then the D.C. area wanted to be like The South and some act like they want to be from The South to this day. Now the Baltimore area back then was more like New York, Newark, New Jersey and Philadelphia until the mid 2000's they start acting funny like they wanted to be like Down South to and some of them act like that to this day. Also Maryland was not a Confederate State in The South. It was a Union State in The North along with others Northern states like New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and so on. The Mason–Dixon Line have nothing to do with either North or South. The Mason-Dixon line was actually over a property dispute between Pennsylvania and the state of Maryland. This happened nearly a whole hundred years before The Civil War broke out. In which Pennsylvania won. The whole dispute was over Maryland wanted Philadelphia and Pennsylvania wasn't having that at all. Now how the Mason-Dixon Line seperate The North and The South through four states in which is West Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, and Deleware? When the true seperation of The North and The South is the Parallel 36 30 north / Missouri Compromise. The only people whom feel as though they are Southern in the States of Deleware, Maryland, and Virgina is those who lives in Rural Areas better known as The Country. In which they are not really exposed to Urban Life better known as The City Life. And as far as Virginia is concerned in The Civil War times they was known as being a Southern State but really is part of The North also. The only reason that they said Virginia is a part of The South is because Virginia was a Confiderate State. Yes, Virginia has Southern tendencies to but in modern day times it is a Northern State compared to where the Parallel 36 30 north. Even in Virginia it has a Identity Crisis between knowing whether it's North or South. So with that being said Deleware, Maryland, Washighton D.C., and Virginia you are all Northeastern States. Meaning a Northern State that is also a East Coast State put it together it is a Northeastern State. Also meaning it gets the same weather as New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Deleware in which is all Northeastern States. Really at the end of the day Deleware, Maryland, Washighton D.C, and Virginia all have a Identity Crisis whether knowing you are The North or The South and where you stand at. Everybody else do. I hope this helps clearify it better where you stand at. Because y'all are not Southern and people from Down South don't even acknowledge y'all as being Southern. They veiw y'all as Northerners. So Delaware, Maryland, Washington D.C. and Virginia you are The North. What I'am saying is Deleware, Maryland, Washighton D.C., and Virginia ya'll all have a Identity Crisis back then and now. Get off The South Dick. And Stop Dick Ridin The South. And in The South They Don't What Ya'll get off they Dick. Oh by the way this is more then Hip-Hop. Ya'll wanna be Southerners. Yeah Maryland had to get down or lay down shouts out to The North for holdin' It Down on the battlefield son. Northeast megalopolis, BosWash, Northeast Corridor, East Coast hip hop, Article by New York A.K.A. Nu Yawk NY. 14:11, 25 July 2012

So let me get this straight. You are basing your entire argument on hip-hop? I am an African-American raised in Fort Washington. Maryland is Southern. The Census Bureau even classifies it as Southern. I am going to deconstruct your argument right now.

"It was a Union State in the North along with others northern states like New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and so on. The Mason–Dixon Line have nothing to do with either North or the South" Yeah, because Lincoln forced them to be against their will. Midnight replacements because Lincoln knew that DC would be surrounded on all sides if Maryland seceded. The state song (to this day I might add) is about how Lincoln is a tyrant. The flag is actually a combination of the Union (Calvert - black and yellow) and Confederate (Crossland - red and white).

"The Mason-Dixon line was actually over a property dispute between Pennsylvania and the state of Maryland.This happened a whole hundred years before the Civil War broke out.In which Pennsylvania won. The whole dispute was over Maryland wanted Philadelphia and Pennsylvania wasn't having that at all. How the Mason-Dixon Line seperate the north and the south through three states in which is Maryland, Pennsylvania, and Deleware? When the true seperation of the south and north is the Parallel 36 30 north and Missouri Compromise." 1) Learn to spell. 2) This line was THE LINE. How did slaves on the Underground Railroad know that they were free? They were in Pennsylvania. They crossed the Mason-Dixon line.

"In which they are not really exposed to urban life better known as the city life. As far as Virginia is concerned in the Civil War times was known as being South but really is part of the North also. The only reason that they said Virginia is a part of the South is because Virginia was a Confiderate State. Yes, Virginia has southern tendencies but in modern times it is a Northern State compared to where the Parallel 36 30 north. Even in Virginia it has a identity crisis between knowing whether it's north or south. So that being said Deleware, Maryland, Washighton D.C., and Virginia are all northeastern states. Meaning a northern state that is also a east coast state put it together it is a northeastern state." You're kidding, right? Half the battles of the war took place in Virginia. In fact you know Arlington National Cemetery? That's Robert E. Lee's old plantation. They buried Union soldiers there as punishment for Lee fighting with Virginia and the South. Maryland also has southern tendencies. Have you been to Hagerstown, Port Tobacco, St. Mary's? You would think you're in the middle of Mississippi if someone dropped you there blindfolded.

"Also meaning it gets the same weather as New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Deleware in which is all northeastern states. Really at the end of the day Deleware, Maryland, Washighton D.C, and Virginia all have identity crisis whether you are north or south and where you stand at. Everybody else do. I hope this helps clearify it better where you stand at. You are not southern and people from down south don't even acknowledge you as being southern.They veiw you as northerners. So Maryland, Washington D.C. and Virginia you are the North." - Actually no. Maryland's climate zone aligns with the South as humid subtropical. The Northeast has a continental climate. And not all of them do. Maybe just the misinformed ones you know.

"Northeast megalopolis, BosWash, Northeast Corridor, East Coast hip hop" - You signed off with your "hashtags", huh.

This argument is so asinine it doesn't make sense. When you argue a point, please don't use a music genre that has developed over the past 40 years to talk about a 250+ year old state. By Fort Washington, Maryland A.K.A. Mississippi — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.235.3.6 (talk) 19:08, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

This article or articles is by a straight up Ghetto Hood Project New York City N.I.G.G.A. The five boroughs is thorough. And you damn right I said N.I.G.G.A. meaning for those who don't know

Never Ignorant Getting Goals Accomplished.

Now I see I have to break this shit down lil more illa for you slow dumb Muthafuckas out there. And just to let know I... will... not... lose. I prove you lost already. And yeah i'm talkin to you Mr or Ms Fort Washington, Maryland oh my bad wanna be Mississippi Fuck Outta Here with That Bullshit. This a New York City Nigga talkin to you cock sucka what up. You tried to play on my intelligence shame on you clown. You have Fuck Up now. LAUGHING MY FUCKIN' ASS OFF!!!

Ok lets talk about Bum Ass Maryland The State with a Identity Crisis and Confused as Fuck.

The Maryland State Flag

At first, only the gold and black Calvert arms were associated with Maryland. Meaning The Union The North. The red and white Crossland Banner Unofficial state flag of Maryland were associated with The Confederacy meaning The South. At first, the Crossland coat of arms was put in the upper-left corner, but this was supposedly swapped with the Union's Calvert arms because of the Union victory. However, it was not officially adopted as the state flag until November 25, 1904. 39 years after The American Civil War. Now some Maryland counties and municipalities have arms and/or flags incorporating various elements of the arms, including the City of Baltimore, as well as Calvert County, Caroline County, Baltimore County, Howard County, and Worcester County counties. Now 5 out 6 of those places have the black and gold design on the flags. The City of Baltimore, Calvert County, Caroline County, Baltimore County, Worcester County, Meaning The Union The North. Now only 1 out 6 have the red and white crossland banner colors which is Howard County, Meaning The Confederacy The South. The Union has more meaning The North. The Confederacy has 1 meaning The South. And also if you look at the United States Army Colors today it's Black and Gold. So what that tell you. And also Baltimore City is Maryland Largest city with The Union's flag meaning The North. I mean it looks like a Northern City anyway. It kanda looks like Philadelphia / Camden, New Jersey and a little bit of Newark, New Jersey. Now i'm talkin about when you actually go to those cities in ghetto to. Not just the nice side of town. They will actually resemble each other in many ways like the rowhouses. And the marble steps also set Baltimore's row houses distinct from other cities' row houses. Much like Philadelphia, some areas of the city that contain row houses are neglected. Scattered row homes and apartment rows can often be found in other Eastern and Midwestern U.S. cities. Meaning The North like Northeastern cities like Richmond, Virginia, Washington, D.C., Baltimore, Philadelphia, New York City, Boston. So with that being said The Union The North is where it's at. The Union We are more Superior in The North. Like men Sgt. William Harvey Carney, Medal of Honor recipient a Union soldier of The North a Black Man. Sgt. Major Christian Fleetwood, Medal of Honor recipient a Union soldier of The North a Black Man. First Lt. Alonzo H. Cushing who has the Medal of Honor a Union soldier of The North who helped turn the tide at Gettysburg, PA. Rank Admiral David Dixon Porter a Union soldier of The North. Rank Admiral David Farragut a Union soldier of The North. Rank Major General of the Army of the United States (post-bellum) William Tecumseh Sherman a Union soldier of The North. Rank General of the Army of the (United States) / who later became Commander-in-chief Ulysses S. Grant one of the heads of The Union Army of The North. And then President Abraham Lincoln Commander-in-chief of the United States Army The Union Army of The North. Who helped free the slaves. And there are rumors that President Abraham Lincoln Commander-in-chief is to be Half Black. Who is also from The North. Abraham Lincoln's mother was having an affair with a black plantation worker and new DNA evidence suggests that she somehow tricked her husband into believing that Abraham was the couples child. Secret love letters unearthed in 2003 reveal that Lincoln's mother was conducting a clandestine affair with a slave named Iemis from a Kentucky plantation. We managed to attain DNA evidence from a lock of Abraham Lincoln's hair which proves that he had a very strong African genetic link. His chromosome makeup is very specific to West African DNA patterns and this suggests that Abraham's real father was indeed of African origin," Dr. Alan Holdsworth, who is the chief Anthropologist on this project told National Geographic magazine. Now we know why he was so vehemently opposed to slavery. Lincoln's father was a slave. His mother, a poor white farmer's wife had slept with a black slave and somehow concealed this fact from her husband. And then President Barack Obama The Great Commander-in-chief The Highly Intelligent Black Man. Who is also from The North. Now The Confederacy in The South is Wack. Straight up lets call it what it is. They are Wack. Real Talk. But yo on The Real though Maryland needs to change they state flag. And get that red and white Crossland Banner Confederate Bullshit off they flag. And some of the counties to. And Howard County would be one of them. And the Fuck Up part about it. The majority of my Black people in Maryland don't even know or don't even care about that shit true story. Article by New York A.K.A. Nu Yawk NY.

Slave and free states

Slavery in the United States started in 1619 Twenty slaves in Virginia Africans brought to Jamestown are the first slaves imported into Britain’s North American colonies. Like indentured servants, they were probably freed after a fixed period of service. In 1641 Massachusetts is the first colony to legalize slavery. In 1650 Connecticut legalizes slavery. In 1663 Maryland legalizes slavery. In 1664 New York and New Jersey legalize slavery. In 1700 Pennsylvania legalizes slavery. In 1715 Rhode Island legalizes slavery. In 1820 Missouri Compromise Missouri is admitted to the Union as a slave state, Maine as a free state. Slavery is forbidden in any subsequent territories north of latitude Parallel 36 30 north. In 1849 Harriet Tubman Escapes After fleeing slavery, Tubman returns south at least 15 times to help rescue several hundred others. In 1861 to 1865 United States Civil War Four years of brutal conflict claim 623,000 lives. In 1863 Emancipation Proclamation President Abraham Lincoln decrees that all slaves in Rebel territory are free on January 1, 1863. In 1865 Slavery Abolished The 13th Amendment to the United States Constitution outlaws slavery. So thats 246 years of slavery in the United States of America from 1619 to 1865. Although slavery really started In 1501 African Slaves in the New World Spanish settlers bring slaves from Africa to Santo Domingo (now the capital of the Dominican Republic). So thats 364 years of slavery for us Black people from 1501 to 1865.

By 1800, all of the northern states had abolished slavery or set measures in place to gradually reduce it. By 1789, 5 of the Northern states had abolished slavery: Pennsylvania (1780), New Hampshire and Massachusetts (1783), Connecticut and Rhode Island (1784). By 1804 all the other Northern states had abolished slavery: New York (1799), New Jersey (1804). Vermont abolished slavery in 1777, while it was still independent, and when it joined the United States as the 14th state in 1791 it was the first state to have done so. In other words these northern states where slave states to. But you don't see us in The North Suckin Down South Dick. Talking about we The South to because we had slave states to Fuck Outta Here With Bullshit. And speaking of that. Delaware was above the Mason–Dixon line with Pennsylvania but it was still a slave state. And Delaware retained slavery until the Thirteenth Amendment was ratified in 1865. So What The Fuck Is You Talking About You Suck Off Lame. You Suck Down South Dick Don't You. Yeah You Do. And The Mason–Dixon line was surveyed between 1763 and 1767 by Charles Mason and Jeremiah Dixon in the resolution of a border dispute between British colonies in Colonial America. It is still a demarcation line among four U.S. states, forming part of the borders of Pennsylvania, Maryland, Delaware, and West Virginia (originally part of Virginia). The Mason–Dixon line was established to end a boundary dispute between the British colonies of Maryland and Pennsylvania/Delaware. But the most serious problem was that the Maryland claim would put Philadelphia, which became the major city in Pennsylvania, within Maryland. You know Pennsylvania in The North not having that. And as far as Northern Virginia concern Arlington County, Virginia and Alexandria, Virginia just those two places in Northern Virginia and Washington, D.C. On December 23, 1788, the Maryland General Assembly passed an act, allowing it to cede land for the federal district. The Virginia General Assembly followed suit on December 3, 1789. Washington, D.C. The signing of the Residence Act on July 16, 1790, approved the creation of a capital district located along the Potomac River on the country's East Coast. The U.S. Constitution provided for a federal district under theexclusive jurisdiction of the Congress and the District is therefore not a part of any U.S. state. The states of Maryland and Virginia each donated land to form the federal district, which included the preexisting settlements of Georgetown, Washington, D.C. founded in 1751 and Alexandria, Virginia founded in 1749. During 1791–92, Andrew Ellicott and several assistants, including a free African American astronomer named Benjamin Banneker, surveyed the borders of the federal district and placed boundary stones at every mile point. The survey began at Jones Point, a cape located at the confluence of Hunting Creek and the Potomac River south of Alexandria. Many of the stones are still standing to this day. I have seen them myself. They are called Boundary Markers or Cornerstones. Southern corner Address Seawall south of lighthouse, Jones Point Park, 1 Jones Point Drive, Alexandria, Virginia. Western corner Address In Andrew Ellicott Park at the West Cornerstone, 2824 N. Arizona St, Arlington, Virginia. Northern corner Address 1880 block of East-West Highway (south side) Washington, D.C., and Montgomery County, Maryland. Eastern corner Address 100 feet (30 m) east of junction of Eastern and Southern Avenues Washington, D.C., and Prince George's County, Maryland. And thats just to name a few because there are more about 40 milestones that mark the four lines forming the boundaries between the states of Maryland and Virginia and the square of 100 square miles (259 km²) of federal territory that became the District of Columbia in 1801. Today, 36 of the original marker stones survive as the oldest federally placed monuments in the United States. Due to the return of the portion of the District south and west of the Potomac River to Virginia in 1846, some of these markers are now within Virginia. The sides of the square are each 10 miles (16 km) long. The specified orientation results in a diamond shape for the District's original boundaries on most maps. The Virginia stones were set in 1791, and the Maryland ones in 1792. The side of a boundary marker that faced the federal territory was inscribed "Jurisdiction of the United States". The opposite side was marked with the name of the border state: Virginia or Maryland. The remaining sides were marked with the year that the team placed the stones and with the marker's compass reading. And named in honor of George Washington, the City of Washington was founded in September 9, 1791 to serve as the new national capital. The federal district was named Columbia, which was a poetic name for the United States commonly in use at that time. Congress held its first session in Washington on November 17, 1800. The District of Columbia retrocession was the process of returning the land that was given to the Federal government of the United States for the original purpose of creating the national capital. The District of Columbia was formed in 1791 from 100 square miles (259 km2) of land ceded by the states of Maryland and Virginia in accordance with the Residence Act. The area of 31 square miles (80 km2) that was originally ceded by Virginia was returned to that state in 1847. The District's current area consists of the remaining 69 square miles (179 km2) of territory originally ceded by Maryland. Proposals to return the remaining portion of the District of Columbia to the state of Maryland are cited as ways to provide full voting representation in Congress and return local control of the city to its residents. The Organic Act of 1801 organized the District of Columbia and placed the federal territory under the exclusive control of Congress. The District was organized into two counties, Washington County, D.C. on the east side of the Potomac River, and Alexandria County, D.C. on the west side. Alexandria County was part of the original 100-mile square created as the District of Columbia in 1791. The portion of the District created from territory ceded by Virginia in Fairfax County was termed Alexandria County of the District of Columbia. It included all of the present day Arlington County, Virginia, plus part of what is now the independent city of Alexandria, Virginia. Following this Act, citizens located in the District were no longer considered residents of Maryland or Virginia, thus ending their representation in Congress. Almost immediately after the Organic Act of 1801, Congress took up proposals for the return of the territory to the states, all of which failed. Other Congressmen were of the opinion that the District could not be immediately returned without the consent of the residents and the legislatures of Maryland and Virginia. Some representatives rejected the idea of retrocession entirely and concluded that the Congress lacked the constitutional authority to return the territory. In the 1830s, efforts grew to reunite the southern portion of the District with Virginia. Besides the fact that District residents had lost representation in Congress, a number of additional factors aided the movement to return the area to Virginia. Returning Alexandria to Virginia allowed residents to seek financing for projects without interference from Congress. At the time, Alexandria was a major market in the American slave trade, but rumors circulated that abolitionists in Congress were attempting to end slavery in the nation's capital, which would have also seriously harmed the area's economy. There was also an active abolitionist movement in Virginia. If Alexandria were returned to the state of Virginia, the move would have added two additional pro-slavery representatives to the Virginia General Assembly. From 1840 to 1846, Alexandrians petitioned Congress and the Virginia legislature to approve retrocession. On February 2, 1846, the Virginia General Assembly agreed to accept the retrocession of Alexandria if Congress approved. Following additional lobbying by Alexandrians, the 29th Congress passed legislation on July 9, 1846, to return all the District's territory south of the Potomac River back to the Commonwealth of Virginia, pursuant to a referendum; President James K. Polk signed the legislation the next day. A referendum on retrocession was held on September 1–2, 1846. The residents of the city of Alexandria voted in favor of the retrocession, 763 to 222; however, the residents of Alexandria County voted against retrocession 106 to 29. I wonder why? Prolly because they didn't want to have nothing to do with slavery. The Union loyalists who lived in rural areas outside the town of Alexandria, rejected secession. Despite the objections of those living in Alexandria County, President Polk certified the referendum and issued a proclamation of transfer on September 7, 1846. The Virginia legislature, however, did not immediately accept the retrocession offer. Virginia legislators were concerned that the people of Alexandria County had not been properly included in the retrocession proceedings. After months of debate, the Virginia General Assembly voted to formally accept the retrocession legislation on March 13, 1847. Confirming the fears of pro-slavery Alexandrians, the Compromise of 1850 outlawed the slave trade in the District, although not slavery itself. Slavery was abolished throughout the District on April 16, 1862 – eight months before Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation — with the passage of the Compensated Emancipation Act. The city became a popular place for freed slaves to congregate. Escaped African American slaves poured into the military occupation of Alexandria. Safely behind Union lines, the cities of Alexandria and Washington offered not only comparative freedom, but employment. Over the course of the war, Alexandria was transformed by the Union occupiers into a major supply depot and transport and hospital center, all under army control. Because the escaped slaves were still legally property until the abolition of slavery, they were labeled as contrabands to prevent their being returned to their masters. Contrabands took positions with the army in various support roles. According to one statistic, the population of Alexandria had exploded to 18,000 by the fall of 1863 – an increase of 10,000 people in 16 months. As of ratification of the Fifteenth Amendment, Alexandria County’s black population was more than 8,700, or about half the total number of residents in the County. This newly enfranchised constituency provided the support necessary to elect the first black Alexandrians to the City Council and the Virginia Legislature. From 1846 to 1920, the county was known as Alexandria County, Virginia. In 1870, the independent City of Alexandria seceded from Alexandria County, and because of the confusion between the city and the county having the same name, a movement started to rename Alexandria County. The area that now constitutes Arlington County was originally part of Fairfax County in the Colony of Virginia. Land grants from the British monarch were awarded to prominent Englishmen in exchange for political favors and efforts at development. One of the grantees was Thomas Fairfax, 6th Lord Fairfax of Cameron, who lends his name to both Fairfax County and the City of Fairfax. The name Arlington comes from Henry Bennet, 1st Earl of Arlington whose name had been applied to a plantation along the Potomac River. George Washington Parke Custis, grandson of First Lady Martha Washington, acquired this land in 1802. The estate was eventually passed down to Mary Anna Custis Lee, the wife of General Robert E. Lee. The property later became Arlington National Cemetery during the American Civil War, and now lends its name to present-day Arlington County. In 1920, the name Arlington County was adopted, after Arlington House, the home of the American Civil War general Robert E. Lee, which stands on the grounds of what is now Arlington National Cemetery. The Town of Potomac was incorporated as a town in Alexandria County in 1908. The town was annexed by the independent city of Alexandria in 1930. Arlington County shares with a portion of the independent City of Alexandria (including the former town of Potomac) the distinction of being once in Virginia, then ceded to the U.S. government to form the District of Columbia, and later retroceded to Virginia. Although Virginia was part of the Confederacy, its control did not extend all the way through Northern Virginia. However, the territory in present-day Arlington was never successfully captured by Confederate forces. The impression this gives is that Virginians do not consider areas north of the Rappahannock River as part of the state. One need only scan 1862–1864 to understand why. North of that river, which I have mentioned before, the United States dominated the terrain during the War of the Rebellion. It was only to the south of the Rappahannock River that rebel armies held sway on a consistent basis, almost to the end. In 1862, the United States Congress passed a law that provided that those districts in which the "insurrection" persisted were to pay their real estate taxes in person. The property containing the home of Confederate General Robert E. Lee's family at and around Arlington House was subjected to an appraisal of $26,810, on which a tax of $92.07 was assessed. However, Lee's wife, Mary Anna Custis Lee, the owner of the property, did not pay this tax in person. As a result of the 1862 law, the Federal government confiscated the property and made it into a military cemetery. And for also betrayal to The Union The North. Certainly, Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis (alongside many others) were both technically traitors to The Union they had sworn to defend—and they both defended Southerners’ “right” to enslave millions of their fellow human beings. The Black Man. And The Confederate States of America The South did not have the authority or the right to secede from The United States of America The Union The North. But General George Thomas who is also from Virginia like Robert E. Lee who did not betray The Union The North. He was a loyal officer unlike his fellow Virginian, the betrayer Robert E. Lee, knew where his duty rested. There was an oath, he had sworn to it, and that was the end of things. I acknowledge that the whole idea of an “oath” actually meaning something in the “modern” age may not resonate with everyone. I do not really know how to bring this into the present for most of you. The social/intellectual/emotional concept of individual honor has sort of changed a lot in the past 150 years. Unfortunately sometimes I really do not understand those of you who do not feel deeply about honor. So Robert E. Lee treason, his betrayal of his oath as an officer of the United States Army. And George Thomas rejected the course of political and familial opportunism and stayed true to his oath. He won on the battlefield, over and over again, and defended the United States with his every action, and now he is largely forgotten. He was, in the end, the man true to his oath. As opposed to the others he fought. Like Robert E. Lee a Traitor to The Union The North. And so what Robert E. Lee resigned from The Union. He still fought for Slavery in The Confederacy. Even though they say Robert E. Lee was against Slavery but yet and still you fought for the side that was for Slavery. Action speaks louder than words. And oh by the way Confederate General of The South by the name of Nathan Bedford Forrest founded The KKK in 1865 in Pulaski, Tennessee after The American Civil War. Because they wanted to keep us Black People in check. Yeah Fuck Outta Here Picture That Bullshit. And also Mississippi had tried to get KKK License Plates. That commemorate Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest, a former Confederate Army general during the Civil War and early leader of the Ku Klux Klan. Now that's Fuck Up. But you Mr or Ms Fort Washington, Maryland / Mississippi I Wanna Be Down Like Brandy. Talking about Maryland is The South it looks like Mississippi. Get Off Mississippi and Down South Dick. They don't want you Fuck Outta Here. Real Talk. Now come on let's keep it real that's what The Civil War was all about. The South The Confederacy was for Slavery and The North The Union was against Slavery. In other words The Other Man which is some of The White Man wanted to enslave and control The Brother Man which is The Black Man My Black People for money and profit. And at the end of the day there is no justification for that. Sorry. The Confederate States of America The South was an early version of a Communist state/country. Where The White Man is all equal and they was like the Communist Government Party the high society. And The Black Man My Black People was the oppress people of the country and was not equal the low society. And it have been this way for a long time in this country even sometimes to this day. And They say we N-I double G-E-R, we are Much more, still we choose to ignore The obvious, man this history don't acknowledge us We were scholars long before colleges. Blacks have contributed a ton of knowledge to this world even if the History books (which are slanted towards whites) don’t acknowledge it. Look at the last 2000 years of our existence and what we brought to the world in terms of science, mathematics, agriculture and forms of government. Cause anytime we mention our condition, our history or existence They callin it reverse racism. Meaning that anytime blacks speak truthfully about America’s historical and current racism, they are accused of ‘reverse racism’. This basically means that Whites don’t want to hear blacks and other minorities speak about past injustices, so they label anyone who talks about it as a “racist” against white people. Now ain't that some shit. And they have the nerve. Like Fuck Outta Here with that Bullshit. Real Talk. Article by New York A.K.A. Nu Yawk NY.

Maryland

10,000 B.C. The First humans arrived by this date in the land that would become Maryland. Europeans began exploring the area, starting with John Cabot navigator and explorer, sailed along Eastern Shore off present-day Worcester County, Maryland in 1498. Now thats 134 years before The Province of Maryland in 1632. In 1632, June 20 the Maryland Charter granted to Cecilius Calvert, 2nd Lord Baltimore, by Charles I, King of Great Britain and Ireland. The colony was named Maryland for Queen Henrietta Maria (1609-1669), the wife of Charles I (1600-1649). The Province of Maryland was an English and later British colony in North America that existed from 1632 until 1776, now thats 144 years before and when it joined the other twelve of the Thirteen Colonies in rebellion against Great Britain and became the U.S. state of Maryland. Like its larger neighbor, Virginia, Maryland developed into a plantation colony by the 18th century. In 1700 there were about 25,000 people. And in 1729 Baltimore Town established by charter. And by 1750 that had grown more than 5 times to 130,000. By 1755, about 40% of Maryland's population was black. For 80 years the powerful Penn and Calvert families had feuded over overlapping Royal grant. In 1763-1767 Charles Mason and Jeremiah Dixon surveyed the boundary line with Pennsylvania. Surveyors Charles Mason and Jeremiah Dixon mapped the Maryland-Pennsylvania border in 1767, setting out the Mason-Dixon Line. Now thats 94 years before The American Civil War in 1861. Like I said before it has nothing to do with The North and The South boundary line. By 1776 the old order had been overthrown, as Marylanders signed the Declaration of Independence, forcing the end of British colonial rule. In 1776, July 4 Declaration of Independence adopted in Philadelphia. Engrossed copy signed by Marylanders William Paca, Charles Carroll of Carrollton, Thomas Stone, and Samuel Chase. In 1776, July 6. Maryland Convention declared independence from Great Britain. In 1788, April 28 Maryland Convention ratified U.S. Constitution, making Maryland the seventh state to do so. Convention adjourned without recommending amendments. Now from 1776 to 1788 Maryland was independent not a State. Now thats 12 years of independence. Now from 1788 to 2014 thats 226 years of Maryland being a State or from 1788 to 2015 thats 227 years of Maryland being a State not 250+ years Dumb Ass. Now from 1788 to 2038 and beyond will be 250 years plus in Maryland statehood Admission to Union The United States of America Dick Head. In 1796 Baltimore City incorporated. In 1851 Baltimore City, which has been the "County Seat" of Baltimore County since 1767–1768, becomes an independent city (with the same status as the other 23 counties of Maryland) Baltimore City is separated from surrounding Baltimore County on its east, west and north sides, with Anne Arundel County remaining to its south. And Baltimore County, Maryland move its new county seat north to Towsontown in 1854 which is known as Towson, Maryland today. The city of Baltimore was also home to the country's largest population (25,000) of free African Americans, as well as many white abolitionists and supporters of the Union. The areas of Southern and Eastern Maryland, especially those on the Chesapeake Bay, which had prospered on the tobacco trade and slave labor, were generally sympathetic to the South, while northern and western areas of the state, especially Marylanders of German origin, had stronger economic ties to the North. Not all blacks in Maryland were slaves. The 1860 Federal Census showed there were nearly as many free blacks (83,942) as slaves (87,189) in Maryland. The Maryland State legislature met in Frederick, Maryland a strongly pro-Union town. on April 26; on April 29, it voted 53–13 against secession. Secession resolutions were submitted, but rejected in part because it was believed that the legislature did not have the power to declare secession. It has been estimated that, of the state's 1860 population of 687,000, up to 25,000 Marylanders traveled south to fight for the Confederacy while about 60,000 Maryland men served in all branches of the Union military. One notable Maryland front line regiment was the 2nd Maryland Infantry, which saw considerable combat action in the Union IX Corps. Action and numbers speaks louder than words. So with that being said The Maryland State song Maryland, My Maryland trying to disrespect The North with words and it is just words it don't mean nothing. We Up North ain't really with the talking we about that action. Thats how Up North Give It Up. Occasional attempts have been made to replace it as Maryland's state song due to its origin in support for the Confederacy and lyrics that refer to President Lincoln as a "tyrant," "despot," and "Vandal," and to The Union as "Northern scum. A poem written by James Ryder Randall (1839–1908) another wanna be Southern scum from Maryland who went Down South to Pointe Coupee Parish, Louisiana. He died on January 15, 1908 in Augusta, Georgia, and is buried there in Magnolia Cemetery. Down South. While the words were penned in 1861, it was not until April 29, 1939, 74 years after The American Civil War that the state's general assembly adopted "Maryland, My Maryland" as the state song. It should be how President Jefferson Davis of The Confederacy is a "tyrant," "despot," and "Vandal," and a traitor and to the The Confederacy as "Southern scum. Thousands of Union troops were stationed in Charles County, and the Federal Government established a large, unsheltered prison camp at Point Lookout in St. Mary's County, Maryland in Southern Maryland at Maryland's southern tip where thousands of Confederates were kept, often in harsh conditions. Of the 50,000 soldiers held in the army prison camp, who were housed in tents at the Point between 1863 and 1865, according to the Maryland Department of Natural Resources, nearly 4,000 died, although this death rate of 8 percent was less than half the death rate among soldiers who were in the field with their own armies. In September 1862 General Robert E. Lee launched his Maryland Campaign, taking the war to the Union for the first time. Southerners were optimistic that Marylanders would rise up and join the Southern columns, but they were to be disappointed. Upon entering Maryland, the Confederates found little support; rather, they were met with reactions that ranged from a cool lack of enthusiasm, to, in many cases, open hostility. Ha Ha L.M.F.A.O. You wack ass Southerners. Stay out of The North we don't want you Up here. Stay Down South with the rest of you wack ass Southerners. After the war, many white Maryland residents struggled to re-establish white supremacy over freedmen and formerly free blacks, and racial tensions rose. There were deep divisions in the state between those who fought for the North and those who fought for the South, which were also difficult to reconcile. Article by New York A.K.A. Nu Yawk NY.

The Northern United States / Northeastern United States / Northeast megalopolis

The United States Census Bureau divides some of the northernmost United States into the Midwest Region and the Northeast Region. The Census Bureau also includes the northernmost states of the Northwestern United States, that are, within the West Region. Historical term Before 19th century westward expansion, the "Northern United States" corresponded to the present day New England region. By the 1830s it corresponded to the present day Northeastern United States. During the American Civil War, the Northern United States was composed of the U.S. states that remained in the United States of America, the Union states. In this context, "The North" is synonymous with the Union. In this context, "The South" is composed of the states that seceded from the U.S. to form the Confederate States of America. The Library of Congress defines the Northeastern states as those east of Mississippi River and north of the Ohio and Potomac Rivers. Which makes Washington, D.C. Maryland and Delaware Northeastern. Land use As of 2007, forest-use covered approximately 60% of the Northeastern states (including Delaware, Maryland, and the District of Columbia), about twice the national average. About 12% was cropland and another 4% grassland pasture or range. There is also more urbanized land in the Northeast (11%) than any other region in the U.S. According to the Northeast Regional Climate Center, the average January temperature in its twelve-state region of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, is 23.6 F (4.7 C), with 3.07 inches (78 mm) of precipitation. This compares to July, when the regional average temperature is 69.9 F (21.1 C), with 4.25 inches (108 mm) of precipitation. Example of areas with continental climates in The Northeastern United States New England meaning Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut. The Under Koppen's climate classification, the humid subtropical climate can also be found in The Northeastern United States, primarily Maryland, Delaware, Washington, D.C., Southeastern Pennsylvania, Southern New Jersey and far Southern New York, specifically New York City and Long Island. So with that being said that does not make you the The South because you have a humid subtropical climate watch The Weather Channel not your local news because they don't know what they be talking about and you will see we all have the same weather in The Northeastern United States from Virginia to Maine Mr or Ms misinformed Fort Washington, Maryland oh my bad wannabe Mississippi I wannabe from The South so bad fuck outta here with that bullshit straight up. Culture Geographer Wilbur Zelinsky asserts that the Northeast region lacks a unified cultural identity, but has served as a "culture hearth" for the rest of the nation. Several much smaller geographical regions within the Northeast do have distinct cultural identities. In other words Richmond, Virginia, Washington, D.C., and Baltimore, Maryland they have an Identity Crisis. They don't know if they wanna be Up North one minute or Down South the next and thats crazy they are confused people in those cities I just named. Now Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, New York, New York, Boston, Massachusetts we know that we are Up North not Down South we know where we stand at. The Northeast megalopolis (also Boston-Washington Corridor or Bos-Wash Corridor) is the most heavily urbanized region of the United States, running primarily northeast to southwest from the northern suburbs of Boston, Massachusetts, to the southern suburbs of Washington, D.C. in Northern Virginia. It includes the major cities of Boston, New York City, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, D.C., and also Richmond, V.A. along with their metropolitan areas and suburbs as well as many smaller urban centers. The Region of The megalopolis encompasses the District of Columbia and part or all of 11 states: from south to north, Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Maine. It is linked by Interstate 95 and U.S. Route 1, which start in Miami and Key West, Florida, respectively, and terminate in Maine at the Canada–United States border, as well as the Northeast Corridor railway line, the busiest passenger rail line in the country. It is home to over 50 million people, and Metropolitan Statistical Areas are contiguous from Washington to Boston. The region is not uniformly populated between the terminal cities, and there are regions nominally within the corridor yet located away from the main transit lines that have been bypassed by urbanization, such as Connecticut's Quiet Corner. The BosWash was described as "the megalopolis that will extend from Washington to Boston" along "an extremely narrow strip of the North Atlantic coast. Meaning The Northeast. Virginia Tech's Metropolitan Institute outlined an area it labeled the "Northeast" megapolitan area, which it views as extending beyond Boston and Washington – past Portland, Maine and Richmond, Virginia – and described it as one of ten such areas in the United States. Port-Rich from Portland, Maine to Richmond, Virginia or Bos-Rich from Boston, Massachusetts to Richmond, Virginia it's still The Northeast. The Mid-Atlantic, also called Middle Atlantic states or the Mid-Atlantic states, form a region of the United States generally located between New England and The Southeastern States which is below The Parallel 36 30 North Line meaning below The Virginia State Line is The Southeastern States Piedmont Atlantic Megaregion extending from North Carolina to Alabama. But The Southeastern States extending from North Carolina to Florida. But really it's the same thing The Southeastern States and The Piedmont Atlantic Megaregion. But back to The Mid-Atlantic region often includes sometimes West Virginia but all the time Virginia, Washington, D.C., Maryland, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York. When discussing climate, Connecticut (especially southern Connecticut) is often included with the mid Atlantic region. Meaning southwestern connecticut which is part of The New York metropolitan area meaning The New York Tri-State Area NY NJ CT. The Northeast Corridor and Interstate 95 link an almost contiguous sprawl of suburbs and large and small cities, forming the Mid-Atlantic portion of the Northeast megalopolis, one of the world's most important concentrations of finance, media, communications, education, medicine, and technology. But what a lot of people don't know is there are Unofficial regions in The U.S. I will name a few Unofficial U.S. multi-state regions Civil War Border States, Dixie, meaning below Mason–Dixon line In popular usage, the Mason–Dixon line symbolizes a cultural boundary between the North and the South (Dixie) but that is not fact that is more fiction and Mid-Atlantic states, which is part of The Northeastern United States. And The Northeastern United States is Official region of the United States. So with that being said there is no in between or in the middle of North and South. And some people in Maryland, Washington, D.C. and Virginia would say they are the Top of The South and the bottom of The North but only those who are confused and have a Identity Crisis would say that because they want to be apart of both and why I say that because of the influence of Hip-Hop on the African-American culture my Black People they just want to ride for who ever is hot at the time in Maryland, Washington, D.C., and Virginia because they are Dick Riders. And that could be East Coast Rap meaning The North Up North or Southern Rap meaning The South Down South and so on like Midwest Rap and West Coast Rap and those are the regional scenes of Hip-Hop. So with that being said when I was talking about Hip-Hop that has been around for 41 years going on 42 years by next year 2015 sense August 11, 1973 on 1520 Sedgwick Avenue The Bronx, New York City, New York the birthplace of Hip-Hop in my first article I was talking about how it had a influence on the Black People in Maryland, Washington, D.C., and Virginia not Hip-Hop it self dummy basically I was saying it made them some Dick Riders for other regional places and especially for The South. They have been Dick Riding The South sense 1996 to now days and that's a shame for Maryland, Washington, D.C., and Virginia. And yes I'm a fan first if you from the south, finger snap till your hands hurt If you from the west W's in the air, if you from the east coast act like you from here. Because I feel that we on a down slope, what happened to the east coast? What happened? So back to the situation at hand it's either you from The North or The South there is no in between or in the middle point blank period there ain't no playing both sides of the fence oh I forgot Maryland, Washington, D.C., and Virginia they have been doing this for centuries they have been confused and have a Identity Crisis sense The American Civil War times to modern day times and that's a shame just stop Dick Riding out there y'all are some swagga jacking ass niggaz out there point blank period. And oh by the way we have rural country areas to Up North in Upstate New York, South Jersey, Central Pennsylvania and so on but that doesn't make us compare it with The South like places called Mississippi Mr or Ms Fort Washington, Maryland oh my bad wanna be Mississippi like fuck outta here. And that Mississippi bullshit you said if someone dropped you there blindfolded in the rural country areas in Maryland it will look like Mississippi that is an personal opinion not a fact dumb ass. So this is my personal opinion not a fact Bullshit places like Western Maryland looks like a fake ass Upstate New York with all the Mountains and shit and Southern Maryland looks like a fake ass Southern New Jersey with it's Peninsula or a fake ass Long Island, New York with St. Mary's Peninsula being South Fork, Suffolk County, New York and the Calvert Peninsula being North Fork, Suffolk County, New York and yes Long Island, New York the U.S. Supreme Court treated the island as a peninsula for the purposes of a boundary decision. And by the way Mississippi don't have no Mountains or a Peninsula. Now The D.C. metropolitan area looks like a fake ass little New York metropolitan Tri-State area with Northern Virginia being Northern New Jersey and The Potomac River being The Hudson River and The Anacostia River being The East River and Washington, D.C. and some parts of Prince George's County, Maryland and some parts of Montgomery County, Maryland being New York City and Westchester County, New York and Howard County, Maryland being Southwestern Connecticut now I'am talking about how the Urban areas of the region look to me and trust me I can go on. Now if you notice I have not one time compared Maryland, Washington, D.C., and Virginia to The South not one time but to The North yes i did. Now far as when I said Maryland, Washington, D.C., and Virginia had southern tendencies is because some of the people there want to be from Down South so bad why when people from Down South don't even acknowledge Deleware, Maryland, Washighton D.C., or Virginia as being part of The South. People in North Carolina don't even look at Virginia as being a true Southern State they look at Virginia as it being a Northern State so what that tell you Dumb Ass. Now North Carolina they are in The South why because they are below The Parallel 36 30 North Line and Virginia is above The Parallel 36 30 North Line which makes it The North. So with that being said learn how to read and do the mathematics and the Knowledge Asshole. And oh yeah by the way I don't do hashtags I get in your Ass i'm too grown for some damn hashtags Dumb Ass fuck outta here you ain't talkin to no youngsta. So at the end of the day it's fuck what you talkin about it's about what the fuck i'm talkin about. Delaware, Maryland, Washington, D.C. and Virginia is Northeastern States / Northern States. Not Mid-Atlantic States and Not Southern States. So with that being said if i did not send for you don't come for me Asshole because i'm coming right back at you Mr or Ms Fort Washington, Maryland A.K.A. Mississippi. So Now You a slave to a page in my article, Your big dummy, Asshole your time's up. Now I want to give a shout out to all my Real Northeasterners / Northerners that's keepin it real and representin' The Northeastern United States / The Northern United States to the fullest from Virginia, Washington, D.C., Maryland, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine. Keep Reppin' The Northeastern United States / The Northern United States I'm out one. Northeast megalopolis, BosWash, Northeast Corridor, East Coast hip hop, Articles by New York A.K.A. Nu Yawk NY. 21:00, 1 November 2014