Talk:Marziano Lavarello

Redirect
I've restored the redirect that existed at this page in early 2021. The version created by and the revised version created by  are both equally unsupported by reliable sources. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 20:30, 16 May 2023 (UTC)


 * First, previous page was heavily biased and had almost no reliable sources. For instance:
 * - calling Marziano a forgerer and having no legal sentence that verifies that, citing instead forums which links no longer exist;
 * - calling him a pretender, while several sentences demonstrate his legitimacy (nonetheless, I think I have been very cautious and avoided supporting either claim).
 * Second, you replied: "sources, either supporting or denying Lavarello's claim, are all equally poor. No reliable sources have been produced to support either version of this story".
 * I have attached an entire book with genealogies and sentences. If you want to cancel or redirect the page, I think it takes a better explanation. In case you need a translation from Italian to English, I could help you.
 * Please, reactivate the page. Marchio Ephesi (talk) 21:19, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure which source you consider to be a reliable source; please specify which of the sources you meant. None of the sources (by my evaulation) could be considered reliable to validate Lavarello's claim to the Byzantine throne. Your sources surely validate that Lavarello made the claim, but your version of the article paints the picture that his claim was valid, which the sources do not uphold. I agree that the prior version was too full of hearsay and supposition to be allowed to stand, which is why I restored the redirect before Ichtyovenator's version. I believe a fuller discussion of the matter here is needed before either version can be restored. To be fair, reading through some of Ichthyovenator's sources, it does become clear that the Italian courts were less than rigorous in granting rights of fons honorum in the mid-20th century (likely because such claims are largely meaningless in a modern democratic society). WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 21:52, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * @WikiDan61
 * Stating that "such claims are largely meaningless in a modern democratic society" is potentially biased too. The most civilized western countries still hold a monarchic regime, which means nobility is something more than a "meaningless claim", being directly appointed by the heads of States.
 * Perhaps you meant that a claimant has a minor influence, on which aspect I could definitely agree.
 * Nonetheless, noble laws (either traditional or coded) specifically define what is legitimate and what is not. Despite the fact that Italy was "potentially" providing grounds for illegitimate yet recognized claims (on which topic, I see no valid sources/statistics/comparisons by Ichtyovenator), Marziano's claims were a matter of fact and could stay on a Wiki page, with absolute no need to be addressed as "acts of a forgerer", nor necessarily validated.
 * Should you look into validation, however, the source I was mentioning is a full research made by the Italian Heraldic Council, a private institute that has been in the object business since 1948. Such research has been corroborated by people who went to the archives and retrieved as many sentences and original documents as possible, later put together as transcripts in a single publication (which is the source I attached to several citations on the page, ref. "Sentences and documents on Marziano II - 1870-1960"). Moreover, I was adding the genealogical bases and got redirected upon saving (most likely, I lost my work).
 * Should you need additional letters patent, I can provide.
 * O. Marchio Ephesi (talk) 22:25, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Dear @WikiDan61, a reply would be much appreciated.
 * It is unfortunate to notice that my editing was completely canceled for "not producing reliable sources", considering that the previous page presented lines such as "possibly on account of his mother having an affair", "spurred by the questionable legitimacy of his own birth and the sense of inferiority", or adjectives like "forgerer" without having this person ever been charged guilty of accusations. Plenty of statements like the aforementioned were on Marziano Lavarello's page, and one of the most cited sources was a "gay forum".
 * If a page like that could stay uncontrolled, therefore unedited on Wikipedia, I believe the modified version I provided deserves more attention than a quick redirection.
 * "I believe a fuller discussion of the matter here is needed before either version can be restored". Should you really mean this, I am totally willing to cooperate and provide the necessary sources. Please advise what it takes and I will do my best, but I beg you not to leave this topic unattended any further.
 * Oscar Marchio Ephesi (talk) 06:28, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
 * you'll note that I did not restore the previous page because its sourcing was no better than the sourcing you had provided. This is why I simply restored an earlier version of the page that was a simple redirect, thus eliminating all contentious content, whether pro- or anti- Lavarello's claims. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 11:30, 26 May 2023 (UTC)