Talk:Mashhad/Archive 1

The two teenagers were hanged for raping a young boy, not for being gay...

It doesnt belong here. It belongs on a page like teenagers that have been hanged for raping young boys page. This is a geographical page about a city. Not a page to condemn a regime for whatever acts it decides to commits. We have pages for that.--Zereshk 17:36, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Your continued suppression of uncomfortable facts about Masshad, in the absence of real discussion and through the uses of wild, unsupported accusations, is not in the spirit of this project. Again, I suggest to you that you bring this matter to the table so that we may resolve it in an orderly fashion. Haiduc 11:06, 11 August 2005 (UTC)


 * See response given here.--Zereshk 18:29, 11 August 2005 (UTC)


 * The comments you refer to are thought-provoking and raise issues not easily resolved. But one thought which springs to mind is that in light of that recounting of all the events mentioned there that took place in Masshad, the article seems even more pale and uninformative. I as a westerner who until a couple of weeks ago had not even heard of Masshad would want to know about all that recent history when reading an article about the town. I strongly suggest you have a section titled "Current events". It is one that will throw a far more informative light upon this complex and interesting place than the anodyne post card pictures and the tourist guide treatment of the topic.


 * As for your comments about the US page, I think that we should give some thought to creating a section titled "Social debates" in which we should list some or all of the topics you mention. The section on the Iraq war should have a discussion of Iraqui civilians dead. I have always been of the opinion that the goose and the gander should bathe in the same sauce, and that both are equally tasteless if sauceless. Haiduc 22:59, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Mashad
(from User talk:Acegikmo1)

Greetings,

Here is why I think the hangings is completely out of place on a page like Mashad:


 * 1) What is exactly the significance of this news item? This is not the first or last such hanging in Mashad. It isnt the first or last such acts in anywhere in Iran in fact. People, including teenagers, are routinely hanged or executed. Should such news items even be mentioned on geographic pages? The incident you mentioned in MASS caused riots. I hardly see any similarity to Mashad. I guarantee you there are hundreds of thousands of people living in Mashad that dont even know that these teenagers were hanged. It was practically insignificant. And in light of the thousands that have already died such deaths in Iran, this incident doesnt have any considerable weight. Im sure you will not accept any of this, but remember that incidents far more important than the teenage hangings in Mashad have not been mentioned on the Mashad page. For example, the bombings in the Imam Reza shrine a couple of years ago that killed dozens, or the ongoing war with narcotics smugglers on the nearby borders of Mashad that have resulted in 30000 casualties in total. Or Mashad's acute heroin and opium problem. Or the fact that minorities were persecuted here. Or the "Spider" serial killer in Mashad, ad infinitum. So what makes you think these 2 teenagers are more significant than others to mention on this page? Is it only because it is a sexually related case? Now if this were some sort of incident like the 1999 college student uprisings that shut down the entire city, it would be worth mentioning. But this is not. I know. My brother and 3 aunts live there.
 * 2) Consistency. If youre gonna mention such things about Mashad, then you should be consistent and do the same on pages everywhere else. I'd like to see you mention gay or teenage slayings or executions on the main pages of Tehran, Isfahan, or even Wyoming, Texas, etc. Heck, the page United States absolutely mentions not even a word about the tens of thousands of Iraqis that have died. THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE SENTENCE ABOUT THE ONGOING WARS IN AFGHNAISTAN OR IRAQ. only a feeble tiny link. Now how do you expect me to believe you when you say youre not trying to smear the image of Iran? If you successfully put up a table about the list of executions and slayings on the US main page, then we can talk about doing a similar thing on the Mashad page.--Zereshk 17:05, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

I completely agree with the excellent points that Zereshk has made, and there is not much more that can be said. Specifically in regards to this issue in Mashhad, I will also add that they were not from Mashhad themselves. Also, there have been numerous, numerous political murders (such as Zahra Kazemi and Dariush Forouhar) and assassinations in Tehran since the very beginning of the Revolution and to this very day - but they are not addressed in the Tehran article and rightly so. Surely you are very familiar with the case of Zahra Kazemi who was from Montreal herself? Should we list her in every single article related to Montreal and the Canadian government and how Canada literally did nothing to stop her brutal and heinous torture and eventual murder? As with Zereshk, I don't like double standards and certainly I oppose any prejudicial anti-Iranian POV which is clearly apparent here.

The issue is dealt with in the proper context in several different and more appropriate articles, as is the case with other executions and political murders/assassinations. There is no need to flood numerous other articles with this information, which again, would be entirely inappropriate and POV. If you can address this issue of double standards and the problem of listing every single execution/asssassination in the articles of each city that they have occurred in, then we can talk. Best regards, SouthernComfort 07:49, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Response to comments
What is exactly the significance of this news item?

The significance is clearly laid out on the Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni page. 1) Amnesty International released a public statement about the event. 2) Peter Tatchell of OutRage!, possibly the most famous gay activist in the UK, issued a response to the event. 3) US Congressman Tom Lantos issued a statement on the event. 4) Sweden and The Netherlands have responded to the executions by announcing that they will immediately halt extraditions of gays to Iran.

The fact is, when an event leads to other governments changing their relations with Iran, when the event leads to reactions by a US Congressman, a famous gay activist, and Amnesty Internation, it is significant. To say, "It was practically insignificant" is inaccruate. It you really think it's insignificant, place the Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni page on Votes for Deletion and see what happens.

So the question isn't whether this event is significant, it's "Does a link to the article on this event belong on the Mashhad page?" And that brings up the issue of consistency, which I'll address below.

You also state, "Im sure you will not accept any of this, but remember that incidents far more important than the teenage hangings in Mashad have not been mentioned on the Mashad page".

I do accept this. But I submit to you that this means the Mashhad article is lacking, not that the event should not be reported. When I first read the Mashhad article, I was shocked at how short it is. I think that the best solution is the report on these more signifcant events in addition to reporting on the deaths of these two boys. As an analogy, take a look at the History of modern literature page. The section "Modern Literature Europe" is missing! By your argument, we should delete the section "Modernist poetry" because it is less significant. I would argue that this is not the "wiki way". If more significant events aren't reported on in the Mashhad article, then let's add them! In the mean time, we can discuss whether it's appropriate to keep the link to Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni.

Consistency:

You say, "If youre gonna mention such things about Mashad, then you should be consistent and do the same on pages everywhere else. I'd like to see you mention gay or teenage slayings or executions on the main pages of Tehran, Isfahan, or even Wyoming, Texas, etc." and this is a very good point.

For comparison (violence against gays):


 * San Francisco, California mentions the death of Harvey Milk
 * Laramie, Wyoming mentions the death of Matthew Shepard
 * Soho mentions David Copeland's bomb which killed three people

Also related:


 * Eltham, London mentions the Stephen Lawrence murder
 * Huyton mentions the murder of Anthony Walker

So, clearly, it is within Wikipedia policy to link to articles about people who have been killed from pages about individual cities. Mashhad should be no exception.

As for the United States' wars in Iraq and Afghanistan: these are separate issues. You can't comare an article on a city to an article on a country. Nor can you compare war-related casualties to executions. These are different issues.

You also say, "If you successfully put up a table about the list of executions and slayings on the US main page, then we can talk about doing a similar thing on the Mashad page"

Again, the comparison is rather different. When someone is executed for murder in the US, it does not lead to the kinds of international outcry that I describe above. And again, we can't comare a city article with a country article. These are completely different events. But regardless, that list does exist (of course, separate from the main US page). See Capital punishment in the United States. The table at the right links to all executions in the US since 1976.

Also, to respond to SouthernComfort, I would point out that Zahra Kazemi is mentioned on the pages 2003 in Canada, 2004 in Canada, March 2005 in Canada, April 2005 in Canada, and Shiraz, Iran.

As one final note, I must say that I am insulted. You both, Zereshk and SouthernComfort, have accused me of anti-Iranian bias with no evidence whatsoever. The only edit I made to this page was reverting the removal of text with no edit summary, something I do all the time on hundreds of different pages. Since then I have not edited this page once, I have not revered a single edit, and I have made a sincere effort to discuss this conflict in a civil manner. When you make comments like, "how do you expect me to believe you when you say youre not trying to smear the image of Iran?" and "I oppose any prejudicial anti-Iranian POV which is clearly apparent here" I cannot help but think of them as personal attracks. I think we are all interested in ensuring the quality of the Mashhad article. I would ask that you refrain from any such comments in the future.

I don't mean to end my comments this way. I must say that I appreciate your thoughtful and reasoned responses on my talk page. I hope that we can continue to discuss this issue civily and come to a consensus that we can all accept.

Sincerely,

Acegikmo1 08:19, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Firstly, my comments concerning anti-Iranian prejudice were not directed to you necessarily, but to the edits that had been made in the article which were both extremely POV and inaccurate. The article on Laramie, for example, does not even include a picture of the bloody murder of Matthew Shepard. The edits also stated that Iranian media widely supported the executions which is blatantly false - the executions were first reported by the Iranian Students News Agency (ISNA), a reformist media organization, which did not present any support for the executions and was, in fact, critical of this action. Other reformist and centrist media were either critical of the executions, or simply reported the facts without stating any support. There is clearly bigotry involved here when the edits in question do not even bother to stick to the facts. Wikipedia is not a soapbox.


 * The edits also mentioned that they were executed simply for "homosexual behavior," which also is false. The primary conviction was for raping the thirteen year old boy. One of the reasons that I disagree with mentioning them in this article is that their case is not so simple that it can be distilled in one or two sentences. The only possible solution is to add a "see also" link to their article, mentioning simply that they were executed there and that's it. But I still oppose this for the moment, for the following reasons below.


 * For example, you mention that Zahra Kazemi is mentioned in the Shiraz article, where she was born. There is only a link to her article under "Notable people" and the article says nothing of her torture and murder. Also, both teens were not even born in the city of Mashhad, nor did they live there - they were only executed there. And again, as Zereshk has stated, there are numerous, numerous executions in Mashhad which are reported in the Iranian media but go unnoticed by the Western media for whatever reason. I could list dozens of executions and create articles for all of them and add links to the "See also" section - but then you'd have an article a mile long. I would love to see what other editors will think of this, since it would certainly be setting a precedent. SouthernComfort 10:32, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your timely and reasoned respone, SouthernComfort. You make several very good points.  First, I would like to say (and I originally intended to say this in my initial post) that I completely agree about removing the picture of the execution from this article.  It does not belong here.  As for the media's reaction, I must admit ignorance on this issue.  I will be satisfied if we leave it out of this page entirely and perhaps discuss it in the article on the two boys.  Thank you also for your explanation regarding anti-Iranian prejudice.  I understand and accept this.  I will address your other comments below here.


 * I agree that it is difficult to discern what the boys were executed for and what, if any, the connection to violence agains gays is. I was originally going to request that we say something about this in the article, but unless and until this becomes clear, I am fine with leaving it out.  Thus, I think that including the "See also" link to be a reasonable and equitable solution to this conflict.  I don't think it will precipitate a mad listing of all executions in Mashhad, for, as you point out, this execution received coverage in Western media.  Finally, I would like to express my sincere thanks for the time and effort you have put into addressing this conflict.  I truly appreciate it.  It is my hope that we can now work toward improving and expanding the body of the Mashhad article.  Sadly, my knowledge is lacking, but I will speak to my friend from Mashhad in the next few weeks and see if I can fill in some of the missing information.  Acegikmo1 19:02, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Also, you seem to link this case with that of "violence against gays" - not all gay rights organizations agree with you, and it's really only been OutRage! in the UK that has claimed that this is a gay issue. There are many, many gays and lesbians who have suffered greatly under this regime, who have been persecuted and executed by the authorities - to think these people to the case of these two does them (gays, lesbians, and bisexuals) a great disservice. That's my opinion. But as it is, there is no evidence that they were "gay" and the issue is further complicated by the fact that the idea of sexual orientation is not accepted by the Judiciary. At any rate, as I've stated, the primary conviction was for raping the boy, which also included charges of "homosexual acts" (as a result of the rape in question). SouthernComfort 10:38, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I will also state that I have no problem with adding a "See also" link in the following form (without including the photo of the hanging) if no other editors have a problem:
 * Mahmoud_Asgari_and_Ayaz_Marhoni, two teenagers executed in Mashhad
 * However, as I've said, considering the number of executions in that city it could set off numerous listings of executions which would be problematic. But considering the Western coverage of this particular execution, which is unusual (since Western media rarely bothers to cover any execution in Iran, including political executions and torture, let alone those of numerous gays and lesbians who have been executed - I could present a very, very detailed list), it might warrant a link to their article. I don't oppose that. I do oppose prejudicial and inaccurate edits, as well as including the photo which is totally unwarranted here. SouthernComfort 10:59, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


 * There is a great obstacle, for any non-Farsi-speaking person, when reporting on an event for which the primary sources are in Farsi. It was my impression, until reading your previous post, that the coverage of this event (a lot of coverage for an insignificant event, by the way) in Iran was of a positive nature. If I am mistaken I will be glad to retract the statement, if presented with persuasive evidence. I have no stake in smearing anyone. But you should think twice before smearing me and waving the red "pov" flag, not because I am "insulted" (who am I to be insulted, anyway?) but because it lowers your own credibility and makes your actions seem "pov.


 * I am glad to see that another user has noticed the threadbare nature of this article. Let me repeat, if you want to write an informative article on a city you cannot limit yourself to anodyne pablum, describing tourist attractions as if this was a Roman ruin. This is a living city, a human community, and you would never know it from your article.


 * Finally, the killing of the two boys should most certainly be here. That they were not from Masshad, that they were Arabs, is not a reason to dismiss, quite the contrary, it is something that needs to be mentioned. That the accusations morphed, in the face of the negative world reaction, from having sex to "raping" (The AP, if I am not mistaken, said that only the younger of the two had been the one to have relations with the thirteen year old, which basically is the same as saying that a fifteen year old had sexual relations with a thirteen year old, two young boys in bed together, maybe consensual, maybe not, we do not know. Was the "raped" boy Iranian and this another example of racial or ethnic bias? Or was he the son of a rich man and these, poor boys, pointing to a political play of some kind? There is a thick book to be written about this event, but one that I cannot write since I am barred by law from travelling there, and by culture from being able to communicate.) is another fact that needs to be mentioned, since there have been reports in the west that this morphing was an attempt to smear the executed boys. Such slurs (of going after the young) have had currency against same-sex relations for over 2000 years now. And your claim that they were not gay (we do not know that either, and probably neither did those two poor boys) is besides the point, the actions for which they died certainly were and that is sufficient.


 * Your argument that other articles may be lacking in "negative" coverage, refuted by Acegikmo, even if true would not excuse proper coverage here. Let me in conclusion suggest that you look at your own biases in "defending the honor" of Iran in what is an international medium. At the root, there is nothing to defend and nothing to attack. What happend, happened, let's report on it, let's be as accurate as possible, please bring your intelligence and knowledge of the language in assistance of those of us less able, and let's create here (and in the article on the two boys) an authoritative discussion on these complex events. Haiduc 11:24, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Haiduc, your edits were blatantly POV and inaccurate, as I've explained. If this was unintentional, then that's fine. Unfortunately this Veryblueboy character doesn't seem to be aware that there is a discussion going on and his behavior now is just plain disruptive. At any rate, I've added a link to the article which should be enough. Haiduc, you really have to be diplomatic here. There is already an article which deals with these two teenagers and which concentrates solely on the facts and presents the POV of the various organizations and individuals who have reported on this case. There is no need to add long-winded paragraphs concerning this matter in this article when another article already exists. And certainly adding a photo of the hanging here, in this article, is totally inappropriate - it's already on the proper article, and there is no need to add it here. Doing so would simply be smearing and defaming the city of Mashhad and can be construed as anti-Iranian bias when the same does not hold true for other articles. As I've stated, there is no picture of the murder of Matthew Shepard on the Laramie article, nor is there is picture of Harvey Milk's murder on the SF page. The link should here should be enough, wouldn't you agree? If you want to delve further into this case, I suggest taking it to the proper article(s) and elaborating there, and I can assist you if there is a need. By the way Haiduc, there are a couple of serious issues, unrelated to this, that I need to discuss with you, but let's resolve this first. SouthernComfort 18:25, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


 * By the way, Haiduc, as a sidenote, you mentioned you are legally barred from travelling to Iran. I'm not sure if you are referring to citizenship issues - if you're American you can still travel to Iran but getting a visa can be time consuming. Lots of Westerners travel to Iran every year - Isfahan is the most popular tourist destination and you can always find huge numbers of Western (mostly from Western Europe) and Asian tourists during the summer season. And by the way, they don't ask about your sexual orientation when getting a visa or entering the country, since the idea of sexual orientation is not legally accepted in Iran - as far as the regime is concerned, gays, lesbians, and bisexuals do not exist. Ironically they do legally recognize transgendered individuals (and who are able to transition legally).


 * Also, English is widely spoken in Iran and you'll have no problems with communication, and signs, products, etc. all feature both Persian and English (such as in Canada with English and French). Not that I think you're going to go, mind you, but just FYI. ;) SouthernComfort 19:56, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

A brief response --

Even if I believed, for a moment, that execution was the appropriate punishment for rape by a 14 and a 16 year old (which the boys were at the time of the alleged act) -- I would find it extraordinarily difficult to believe that any two boys would commit a rape in front of passersby -- knowing that they could be killed for it. This sort of accusation was used to justify the lynchings of minority males in the United States right up into the 1960s, and while it may have occasionally been true, it generally was not. It was bull in nearly every lynching case here -- and I think its bull in this lynching case in Iran.

Additionally, according to several articles I've read, most recently in the "Daily KOS" -- over 4000 gays have been executed in Iran during the clerical regime for being homosexual. Those executions make it seem even more likely that the claim of rape was simply used to try to silence and divide Western Liberal critics. Likewise, young women have been executed in Iran as well, for "sexual immorality," a charge which has been unsuccessful in silencing those of us who do not approve, and I do not approve. I'm sorry, I have no regard for apologetics regarding the slaughter of children. If they do not want these young boys and girls, they should let them emigrate out of their lands, not kill them.

Your other points however are well taken. Pictures of the horrific executions carried out SHOULD be included in articles about given states and cities in the US where such executions occur, along with details regarding those on death row whom new technologies like DNA testing have proven innocent of the crimes of which they were convicted. I would welcome such inclusions as they can only help the positions of those on my side of that divisive issue in America.

Thank you and bright blessings be on you.