Talk:Masjid al-Qiblatayn

Some links
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 * Geocities link

MP  (talk) 18:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Masjid al-Haram which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 12:14, 1 May 2015 (UTC)


 * The discussion above has moved away from discussing the title of this page. Accordingly, I've opened a discussion of this page's title below. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 00:03, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 4 May 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move but consensus to move to proper Arabic transliteration Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:19, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

– "Mosque of the Two Qiblas" is the most common English-language translation for this name, and the English-language titles should be preferred. Other names, such as "Two Qibla Mosque" are much less common. This would also address the slight difference in title between our articles on the more famous Arabian mosque and the less-famous Somalian one. --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 04:16, 11 May 2015 (UTC) 209.211.131.181 (talk) 00:03, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
 * STRONG OPPOSE redundant anglicizations: I was the one who proposed "Mosque of the Two Qiblas" at the Masjid al-Haram talk page. But soon after, I found out that "Mosque of the Two Qiblas" was not a proper name that is in common usage in English, so the move request was redundant. And I withdrew it. It must be remembered that the English language contains many loanwords and phrases taken from other languages and we are not bound to use pure English forms always. "Mosque of the Two Qiblas" also does not seem to follow the pattern of other similar titles about mosques. The common conventional pattern of other titles of articles about mosques (especially, the more historically important mosques, but not including the unique example of the Masjid al-Haram that includes the Kaaba) actually seems to align more closely with a title like "Al-[.........] Mosque". Per Al-Aqsa Mosque, Al-Zaytuna Mosque, and others. Khestwol (talk) 05:16, 4 May 2015 (UTC)


 * SUPPORT move from from "Masjid al-Qiblatain" to "Al-Qiblatayn Mosque". No pure English translation in common usage is common enough to be used as a title here. Note the common conventional pattern of titles for other mosques on Wikipedia. In particular, the conventional pattern of titles for the other more historically important mosques in the Arabic-speaking world, including Al-Aqsa Mosque, Al-Zaytuna Mosque, etc. So the second part of the name ("Mosque") is per this conventional pattern of titles, found in other similar articles, including Al-Aqsa Mosque, Al-Zaytuna Mosque, Al-Shuaibiyah Mosque, Al-Sahibiyah Mosque, Al-Rahma Mosque, Liverpool, Ar-Rahma Mosque, Kiev, Al-Saffahiyah Mosque, Al-Qaiqan Mosque, and many others. Other patterns also exist, but this seems to be the more common pattern. The first part of my proposed title, "Al-Qiblatayn", is a better and standard transliteration of القبلتین‎. The article Arabic alphabet suggests "Al-Qiblatayn" is standard. Per WP:Naming conventions (Arabic): If an Arabic article has no primary transliteration, then the standard transliteration should be used as the article title. Khestwol (talk) 05:16, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment I endorse everything said by Khestwol here. In general, I see a WP:NATURALNESS problem associated with WP:THE in use of the Arabic "Al-" and this is why a use of Al-Masjid al-Qiblatain would be problematic.  In a parallel situation, people only talk of "the al-jazeera" when they are talking about "the al-jazeera something" yet people will often talk, in a stand alone way, about the BBC and many title contents across the web make direct mention to "The BBC".  The equivalent might be of an Arabic content speaking of 'Al "The Hague ..."'  However Khestwol's suggestion makes sense on linguistic grounds in a tricky linguistic situation and this suggestion is, IMO, a suitable though not common name solution.  GregKaye 06:58, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
 * While I continue to think my proposal is the right one, I would also support moving to "mosque" instead of "masjid" as an incremental improvement. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 12:11, 7 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Strongly oppose both moves - The editor who proposed the first name, I am sorry to say must be incompetent. Please refrain from such moves in the future. No one familiar with this subject matter would entertain "Mosque of the two qiblas". As for the second proposal, no the current name is the common name. Mbcap (talk) 16:23, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment, I do not think that this spelling is used in over 75% of English sources. Hence it is not the primary spelling for this mosque. And we have to use a standard transliteration. Per WP:MOSAR: If there is no primary transcription, a standard transliteration is used. Per WP:MOSAR the standard is to transliterate the letter ya (when it is functioning as a consonant and not long vowel) as y (not i). The current spelling in Qiblatain wrongly uses i. It must be changed to Qiblatayn to make it standard, per the table. Do you find anything wrong with using this spelling? Khestwol (talk) 17:07, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Khestwol thank you for your insight and apologies for the rather late reply. As to your question I see no problems with using Qiblatayn over Qiblatain. Mbcap (talk) 20:10, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you Mbcap. Khestwol (talk) 11:24, 23 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Anyway now that the associated article on the "Masjid al-Haram" seems to be staying at its current title, now there is no need to move this article to "Al-Qiblatayn Mosque". If we are to simply use the standard transliteration, per Wikipedia guidelines and WP:MOSAR (where the consonant ي is standard transliterated into y not i, hence it yields qiblatayn not qiblatain), then we can simply move to "Masjid al-Qiblatayn". Khestwol (talk) 18:36, 8 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Strongly oppose move to "Mosque of the Two Qiblas". According to Naming conventions (Arabic) An English translation should only be used if that is how the subject is most often referred to in English sources. I support moving to Masjid al-Qiblatayn, which is the standard Arabic transliteration.--Axiom292 (talk) 05:55, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment, a consensus seems to have emerged to move this page to "Masjid al-Qiblatayn". Khestwol (talk) 11:24, 23 May 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Potential sources
A recent discussion concerning Al-Aqsa Mosque led to the discovery of a couple of sources that may be helpful to the editors of this article. See Talk:Al-Aqsa Mosque. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:57, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

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The Gripping Hand
A minor but interesting point: This mosque is referenced in The Gripping Hand by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, p. 147. kencf0618 (talk) 12:54, 25 September 2019 (UTC)