Talk:Maslow's hierarchy of needs/Archive 6

Introduction
When describing theories that it works parallel with, Maslow stated that the most important component of his theory is that is supplements the “Freudian pessimism” and “neo-behaviorist relativism” with positive and empirically grounded theories of human behavior, motivation, and development. ref. (Maslow as quoted in Hoffman, 1988, p. 191)Maslow, A., & Herzeberg, A. (1954). Hierarchy of needs. AH Maslow. ea., Motivation and Personality. Harper, New York..

Self-Actualization section
Self-actualized individuals were "reality centered," and able to differentiate what was falsified from what was genuine. They were also "problem centered focusing on how to create solutions to life’s difficulties. These individuals were comfortable by themselves and had healthy personal relationships. These individuals preferred close relations with relatively few people including family and friends, rather than a large number of shallow relationships. ref. Maslow, A., & Herzeberg, A. (1954). Hierarchy of needs. AH Maslow. ea., Motivation and Personality. Harper, New York.

Research
Maslow believed that the only reason people were unable to satisfy themselves toward self-actualization was due to the social constraints and difficulties placed upon individuals. Education is one part of society that could be reconstructed to use instead of person-stunting techniques, utilize person-growing techniques such as teaching people life is precious and that if people see the good in the world, it makes life worth living. ref. Simons, J. A., Irwin, D. B., & Drinnien, B. A. (1987). Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Retrieved October, 9, 2009.

Physiological needs
Include that Maslow used homeostasis and specific appetites as points that supported his belief in the need for physiological needs to be met, furthermore not only are they the most important but also that “ A person who is lacking food, safety, love, and esteem would most probably hunger for food more strongly than for anything else”. ref. http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Maslow/motivation.htm A Theory of Human Motivation A. H. Maslow (1943) Originally Published in Psychological Review, 50, 370-396.

Safety Section
Broader attempts to seek safety and stability in the world are seen in the very common preference for familiar rather than unfamiliar things. Furthermore, the tendency to have a religion or world-philosophy that organizes the universe with members having some sort of meaningful whole is also in part motivated by safety-seeking. ref. http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Maslow/motivation.htm A Theory of Human Motivation A. H. Maslow (1943) Originally Published in Psychological Review, 50, 370-396.

Semi-protected edit request on 5 February 2014
Request that quotation 'Air, water, and food are metabolic requirements for survival in all animals, including humans' under heading 'Physiological needs' be altered into 'Air, water, sleep, and food are metabolic requirements for survival in all animals, including humans', considering that sleep indeed is a metabolic requirement in all fauna, and considering Maslow himself naming sleep as a fundamental need in the most basic form, and therefore part of the lowest step in his hierarchy of physiological needs.

Raoul Michels (talk) 16:12, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — &#123;&#123;U&#124;Technical 13&#125;&#125; (t • e • c) 19:31, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Please take a look at the illustration "Maslow's hierarchy of needs, represented as a pyramid" and note sleep as listed. 178.149.135.8 (talk) 01:01, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Image
I have replaced File:Maslow's hierarchy of needs.svg with File:MaslowsHierarchyOfNeeds.svg, which omits the specific examples of needs. Those were largely not contained in the given reference, and I doubt they were given by Maslow in the first place, making their use here original research. Huon (talk) 03:07, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Replaced by attachment theory?
The "research" section, and by extension the lead, says Maslow's theory has largely been replaced by attachment theory. The cited source is an essay about cross-cultural patterns of attachment in children which, for all I can tell, doesn't even mention Maslow's hierarchy, nor does it discuss "graduate and clinical psychology and psychiatry" in any detail. Do I miss something here, or was that claim made up out of thin air and supported by a source that actually doesn't confirm it? Huon (talk) 22:06, 1 November 2014 (UTC)


 * At a closer look that content was edited by a sock of a banned editor. I have removed it. Huon (talk) 23:43, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Vague and lacking source
"However, fame or glory will not help the person to build their self-esteem until they accept who they are internally." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.85.4.83 (talk) 22:27, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 March 2015
This link has changed: * Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, Valdosta. NEW: http://www.edpsycinteractive.org/topics/conation/maslow.html

Fliegenderstern (talk) 19:54, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Stickee (talk) 00:20, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 November 2015
Under "Criticism", adding the full name of the researchers as mentioned in their research: Mahmoud A. Wahba, Lawrence G. Bridwell

Brightskymoon (talk) 04:19, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Why? It's usually sufficient to refer to researchers by their last name. Stickee (talk) 01:26, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Pyramid is a later interpretation
This claim is made in the primary section, with a [citation needed] attached. Here is a source that could be attached there. -- 121.7.103.204 (talk) 11:00, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

1970 Revision?
Maslow revised his earlier model to 7 levels in 1970. I didn't see even a reference to this anywhere on the page and the page instead claims that his 1954 edition is the most complete. This seems to be a strange and significant omission. --50.68.134.51 (talk) 23:17, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Which link to choose?
Since more than one external link uses the same text ("Maslow's hierarchy of needs"), how is a reader to choose one over another? Adding a description phrase to the link would help a reader distinguish between the external sources. YALL JUST NEED TO GO TO XNXX.COM AND THERE YOU WILL FIND EVERYTHING YOU NEED LMFAO — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.75.124.37 (talk) 17:44, 12 September 2016 (UTC) PORNHUB.COM — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.75.124.37 (talk) 17:46, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Graphic: Dynamic hierarchy of needs
Hello, I created a graphic for the dynamic hierarchy of needs, a alternative visualization to the pyramid, referring to Krech, D./Crutchfield, R. S./Ballachey, E. L. (1962), Individual in society, Tokyo etc. 1962, S. 77: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dynamic_hierarchy_of_needs_-_Maslow.svg It would be nice, if someone could integrate this graphic into the article. Philipp Guttmann 16:56, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

Little typo that I can't change due to insufficient rights
At the end of the Physiological Needs section it says "may also shape said instinct". It should say "may also shape that instinct".

MAJOR run on in the first paragraph!! Flower.girl (talk) 08:10, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 November 2016
in paragraph 1.2 Safety needs, in the first sentence, change "Once a person's physical safety needs are relatively satisfied" to "Once a person's physiological needs are relatively satisfied" - I'm sure this was a simple oversight, since each new level of need starts with assuming that the previous level has been satisfied. Nerdman1 (talk) 13:27, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Done, thanks for pointing out the mistake. FireflySixtySeven (talk) 23:14, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 November 2016
Thank you for making my previous change to 1.2 Safety Needs, but I believe that the change implemented was incomplete. "physiological safety needs" should be changed to "physiological needs" - the issue was the safety one, which is NOT what the previous need is about. It's what THIS level of need is about, so the recap of the previous need should not include the word safety. Nerdman1 (talk) 00:15, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Done; apologies for not getting it right the first time. FireflySixtySeven (talk) 01:15, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Image again
I have reverted McGeddon's image changes. I disagree with the basic premise that File:Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.svg is more useful - to me the additional terms are rather difficult to read due to their small size, and I'm still not happy with the underlying OR issues that McGeddon acknowledged. Such details are better handled in the body of the article than in an image. Huon (talk) 00:10, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Full self-actualisation
It is an ideal, but is it even possible? Heff01 (talk) 05:48, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Definition of terms self actualisation
This last section of the article is misleading for the very fundamental reason that it does not provide a definition. I think it should start with an actual definition of self actualisation before moving on to critique the term as not properly conveying Maslow's intent. Generally this section is vaguely written and adds little to the article. If it cannot be improved I would suggest deletion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rmcubed (talk • contribs) 10:46, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

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"Physiological needs are the physical requirements for human survival"
"Maslow's hierarchy places sex in the physiological needs category along with food and breathing", but humans do not need to have sex to survive, as far as I know, no-ones ever died from lack of sex. 92.0.244.12 (talk) 22:01, 16 July 2017 (UTC)


 * But, lack of sex when artificial reproductive methods are not available lead to extinction (of species relying on sexual reproduction). Besides, lack of sex may cause depression and, the latter, to suicide. Loneliness is a byatch.

George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 20:54, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
 * But I agree with you regarding the "hierarchy" levels. Nonetheless, it seems you have not read everything. The article clearly states that there is not a "global" rank. So, we are all aware that "one size does NOT fit all".

The main image is misleading
According to http://academic.udayton.edu/jackbauer/Readings%20595/Koltko-Rivera%2006%20trans%20self-act%20copy.pdf the pyramid has self-transcendence at the top. Here's what the pyramid should look like: http://personalityspirituality.net/articles/the-hierarchy-of-human-needs-maslows-model-of-motivation/ Main image at the article should reflect state-of-the-art of Maslow's theory, not some version of it that he debunked later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cgenie (talk • contribs) 17:42, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The article does mention self-transcendence. I wonder if there are any other arguments for using the older version of the pyramid? Jonpatterns (talk) 19:25, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Love part of belonging or esteem
Did Maslow really include love in Belonging (being accepted as part of a group) rather than in Esteem (being worthy of affection and respect)? It seems more fitting to think of love as part of Esteem; as you can be accepted as part of a group without being loved, but Esteem implies love. LeapUK (talk) 05:52, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Criticisms
It should be obvious that Maslow ignored quite a few physical needs. First we need space - sufficient (at least) to fit our body. We also need not just "air" but air at a certain range of composition, temperature and pressure. Our need for some gravity is suggested by the bone loss experienced by astronauts on the ISS, but the extent of that need is unknown, while it has been well established that excessive force (gravity) will lead to adverse health effects and extremely high gravity will result in tidal forces which would be fatal. We also probably need a microbiome. And we need an environment with limited quantities of radiation of various sorts as well as limited amounts of toxic (carcinogenic, teratogenic, etc.) substances (in the case of toxics (etc.) not just amount, but 'availability' is also important.) The article fails to adequately define what a (physiological) "need" is. Does a zygote "need" the same things as a pre- or post- implantation embryo, a fetus, a neonate, a toddler, an adolescent, an adult, or a senior citizen? Obviously not. Is development (maturation) a need? I certainly do NOT want to increase my mass, but a newborn needs to grow, it seems to me. And there are various studies which demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that we need various types of stimulation and exercise (physical and "mental") to develop normally. I see none of these obvious "needs" mentioned here. We can only speculate what Maslow's norm was. If he based his findings on 1% of the population, then it follows that his norm may not be near the population medians (for instance, Einstein came from a wealthy (or at least well-to-do) family, as do a disproportionate fraction of over-achievers).) It is also stated that "sex instinct" is a "need" (the link redirects to libido). That is nonsense. Some people have zero interest in sex, others are willing to knowingly behave in highly risky ways to engage in sex. Sex instinct is not sex. I would expect Maslow meant engaging in sexual stimulation, erection, orgasm, possibly (male) ejaculation, but I have no idea if he would have included the female menstrual cycle, menses, or pregnancy and reproduction. What is the definition of "need"?71.31.149.188 (talk) 18:29, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

You’ll need to find a source for criticisms if you want to include it in the page. See WP:NOR Bakert (talk) 02:02, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

so called "attachment theory"
HOLY CRAP!!!!!!! "attachment theory has since been extended to provide explanations of nearly all the human needs in Maslow's hierarchy, from sustenance and mating to group membership and justice.[19]"

If that were so, wouldn't it have at least one word of explanation and so forth?? Please correct.2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:A98E:B629:4FB:D8CA (talk) 14:03, 3 August 2019 (UTC)SillyMe


 * The references used here do not even support the connection to the topic, so I've removed it entirely. Iikigaii (talk) 20:50, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Blackfoot?
Apparently there are allegations that Maslow based the hierarchy on the beliefs of the Blackfoot people, with whom he spent much time and to whom he gave no credit.

http://mmiwontario.ca/images/Maslow%E2%80%99s%20Hierarchy%20Connected%20to%20Blackfoot%20Beliefs.pdf

for example

How should this be presented within the article, if at all? DS (talk) 21:49, 14 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Bump! I just recently learned this too. It should definitely be represented here. bse3 (talk · contribs · [//xtools.wmflabs.org/ec/?username=bse3&project=en.wikipedia.org count] · logs) 20:08, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

typo in the pyramid infographic
The text embedded within the infographic says "physiolgical" instead of "physiological". Noting it here since I don't know how to fix it. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.jpg says I can't overwrite it. --2604:2000:1483:694:4968:80BF:331:94DD (talk) 16:55, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:52, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs2.svg

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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 * Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs2.svg

Maslow never drew a pyramid
According to psychologist Scott Barry Kaufman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Barry_Kaufman) and author of Transcend when interviewed by Robert Wright on meaningoflive.tv, there are some misconceptions. Each level of needs is not required to move on to the next level. Kaufman even makes a video game reference here. Also, Maslow never drew a pyramid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A98zPnaYDg no — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:3C9F:1D00:84CB:FFE8:FEA6:6CC0 (talk) 02:01, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Blackfoot connection
I've moved the following claim to the talk page until it can be better sourced/clarified:

"Maslow's idea may have been informed by his work with Blackfeet Nation through conversations with elders and inspiration from the shape and meaning of the Blackfoot tipi, although Maslow never conceptualized his work as a pyramid. There has been no evidence that Maslow stole or borrowed ideas from the Blackfeet from his hierarchy of needs despite popular claims that Maslow misrepresented the Blackfoot worldview. The Blackfoot worldview places self-actualization as a basis for community-actualization and community-actualization as a basis for cultural perpetuity, the latter of which exists at the top of the tipi in Blackfoot philosophy."

Source is self-help book American Awakening: Eight Principles to Restore the Soul of America, but the actual genesis of this theory comes from a misintepretation of the work of Dr. Cindy Blackstock. To give a brief timeline of the confusion: In 1938, Maslow visited the Blackfoot nation - that's all we know. In 2005, Ryan Heavy Head of Red Crow Community College speculates how Maslow may have been influenced by Blackfoot beliefs. He cites some commonalities, and theorizes that Maslow may have been influenced by tipis (probably erroneous as Maslow didn't come up with the pyramid shape), but makes no specific claims that the heirarchy came from a Blackfoot belief. Later, Terry Cross would use Maslow's pyramid as an example to build the "relational worldview" model of indigineous welfare. But he makes no connection at all between Maslow and indigineous philosophy, and it's not even clear he knew Maslow had once visited the Blackfoots. He was simply using it was a way to contrast Western and indigineous thinking. Dr. Blackstock expanded on Cross' work to build the 'breath of life' theory, with a brand new 'Heirarchy of Needs (informed by Blackfoot Nation)'. As far as I know, she makes no claim that this is a historic model or that Maslow took these ideas from Blackfoot philosophy. In fact, she acknowledges that her model is based on Cross, which was based on Maslow, not the other way around.

So in short, there is no reliable source claiming Maslow directly borrowed any of his heirarchy from the Blackfoot tribe. It's fair to say he may have been influenced by his 1938 visit, but we can only speculate how much. Recently bloggers have begun conflating Maslow's 1938 trip with Blackstock's 2004 pyramid, reaching the erroneous conclusion that the former borrowed from the latter. That's not the case, and based on reading their work, I don't think Cross or Blackstock intended that to be drawn. As such, I recommend we strip down everything in this section speculating about tipis and the arrangment of the Blackfoot pyramid (which didn't exist until the 21st century), and just say "Maslow's work may have been informed by time he spent with the Blackfeet Nation", using Blackstock's paper as the source. Or nothing at all, considering this article is about the heirarchy and not Maslow's life. Thoughts? 2600:8800:2397:700:15BB:67A:4D84:91B (talk) 07:28, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree the evidence is currently lacking concerning Maslow borrowing/stealing ideas from Blackfoot beliefs. Interestingly, the topic has received fresh attention from an article just published by Teju Ravilochan - see Maslow Got It Wrong. Amusingly, he cites the wiki text that you've just removed. The latter article doesn't shed any new light on the issue (and maybe adds to the confusion), but there are a few strands of evidence that could be followed up:

Manbooferie (talk) 19:23, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Ryan Heavy Head's presentation about Blackfoot influences on Abraham Maslow (and several others) is available in the Blackfoot Digital Library.
 * Sidney Stone Brown's 2014 book called Transformation Beyond Greed; Native Self Actualization also asserts that Maslow was influenced by "observations of the Siksika tribe'. I haven't read the book, so I can't say whether it presents any new evidence or draws on Ryan Heavy Head's research.
 * Several people (including Ryan Heavy Head) state that Maslow's 1938 visit to the Siksika Reserve only became known about in recent years. (Ryan Heavy Head says it was discovered after Maslow's death when researchers gained access to Maslow's unpublished papers that his family had donated to psychology archives.) However, it seems to have been overlooked that Maslow wrote about his visit in his 1954 book Motivation and Personality! He says: "...I can speak from direct knowledge of but one Indian group-the Northern Blackfoot - but this, however inadequate, was enough to convince me directly of the fundamental fact that the amount of destructiveness and aggression is largely culturally determined (...) The first and most important lesson that the writer learned from a field trip was that Indians are first of all people, individuals, human beings,  and only secondarily Blackfoot Indians. By comparison with similarities, the differences, though undoubtedly there, seemed superficial. (Footnotes: 1. I wish to thank the Social Science Research Council who made this field trip possible by a grant-in-aid of research. 2. These statements apply primarily to the older, less acculturated individuals observed in the year 1939. The culture has changed drastically since then.)"
 * Thank you for those resources, I'm sure we can mine some good material from them. I am also looking into a copy of his journals. New lede phrasing is good, as is the Psychology Today source, although I'd advise future editors to use caution on extrapolating too much information from blogs. Even this Psychology Today blog (in addition to wilder speculations), makes several factual and causal errors, such as the Blackfoot "tipi" worldview (no evidence it existed before Cindy Blackstock, and I've never heard her claim otherwise) being an influence on Maslow (who never arranged his heirarchy into a pyramid shape). It's called 'a theory of Human Motivation', so it'd be shocking if a motivated blogger couldn't find any connections to Blackfoot beliefs, but when speculation becomes accusation, we really need to see some evidence (and to be cautious of 'false evidence', such as misinterpreting theories created 60 years later as being historic).24.251.106.103 (talk) 17:03, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

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"Master race"—citation needed
The citation provided does not substantiate this line:

Maslow studied what he called the master race of people such as Albert Einstein, Jane Addams, Eleanor Roosevelt, and Frederick Douglass rather than mentally ill or neurotic people, writing that "the study of crippled, stunted, immature, and unhealthy specimens can yield only a cripple psychology and a cripple philosophy."

The term "master race" does not appear at all in the text referenced, Motivation And Personality. Could not find any reference online to his use of this term whatsoever. Could not find reference to Frederick Douglass in that text either. A list of subjects is found on p202. Further, that quote at the end is found on p234 of the linked source, not p236. KCzar (talk) 20:28, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

air as a need -- it's for the oxygen
I made the edit that suggested that the need for air is really for oxygen. Obviously, any other atmosphere causes quick suffocation. Nitrogen is appropriate for pressure, but pure nitrogen will cause death. Indeed, one proposed method of capital punishment is an oxygen-depleted, pure-nitrogen atmosphere.

That edit was reverted. Atmospheric oxygen is the need. Oxygen combined with other elements is inadequate for respiration, and liquid oxygen is much too dangerous. I suggest that the edit be restored; it is just too obvious to ignore. I will not do the reversion myself. Pbrower2a (talk) 10:33, 31 August 2021 (UTC)


 * This is article is about psychology, not physics or chemistry. The lay understanding of "air" is "stuff you breathe in order to live". There is absolutely no reader that will think that Maslow thought that people don't need oxygen perse to breathe, so simply writing that people need air to breathe is perfectly sufficient. This point does not need belaboring I think, but I will also mention that the given source also simply mentions "air", not "oxygen".--Megaman en m (talk) 10:49, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree with this point and its reasoning. Seconded. L&#39;être et le néant (talk) 15:05, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Ordering and listing needs
I have seen this go back and forth countless times, and digging into the edit history of the page this appears to have been happening for years. So I will ask for consensus:

Should the list of needs within each category, especially physiological needs, be listed and included in:


 * Alphabetical order
 * The order and inclusion in some specific citation (and if so, which one? The original is ancient.)
 * In order of importance (and according to who, since this process is extremely subjective)
 * Or some other order?

Darcyisverycute (talk) 23:46, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest you pick an order, and specify that in the sentence before the list. E.g.: Physiological needs (sorted alphabetically) include: - or something like that. Frankly, any list which includes sexual intercourse as a physiological need gets little more than snickers from me (and yes, I'm aware the original references include sex), so it's hard to take seriously any concern about ordering. Tarl N. ( discuss ) 05:30, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I think it needs to be disclosed that Maslow did not explicitly mention most of the things listed, on his original paper at least, that they're just examples his readers came up with. Amber W Li (talk) 05:36, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

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Transcendence link
Is it proper style for in-line links to link outside of Wikipedia? The link for “transcendence” goes to Merriam-Webster. 209.2.226.19 (talk) 22:26, 21 February 2023 (UTC)


 * ✅ Reviewed and this appears to have since been corrected by another editor. Adam MLIS (talk) 23:15, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Energy Hierarchy link in the See also section.
I apologize if I'm completely missing something here, but I wonder, how is the Energy hierarchy article link relevant in the "See also" section of an article about Maslow's theory of hierarchy of needs?

✅ The information has since been removed by another editor. Adam MLIS (talk) 23:21, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Add anti aging to the basic needs
Anti aging is technically a basic need. It's needed less often than the other needs on the list though. LukeyBear11 (talk) 01:01, 9 January 2023 (UTC)


 * If Maslow included this concept or others have discussed this in relation to Maslow, then that will be helpful to add. Having a good source will be important for any citation attached to that information. Adam MLIS (talk) 23:27, 22 May 2023 (UTC)